Now that Miller has started the process of incorporating the new GUI
code into his repo, it seems that now is a good time to get some more/
better translations. The new GUI has pretty good localization support
using the standard gettext .PO format (which is then converted to the
Tcl .msg format). It uses Tcl's msgcat library to do the actual work
in the GUI.
So, now's a good time to start contributing. Fix up the languages
that are there, or add more languages or even country-specific
versions of a language. Here are the files:
http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0.41...
I highly recommend using an editor since its easy to make mistakes and
hard to find them. There are many good, free ones:
gtranslator - GNOME GNU/Linux localize - KDE GNU/Linux LocFactory Editor - Mac OS X POedit - Windows/Mac OS X/GNU/Linux emacs po-mode included with gettext
As for the license, I think we should just put them in the public
domain since it seems too much of a headache to manage the license on
them, or make it the same license as Pd.
.hc
All information should be free. - the hacker ethic
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0.41... As for the license, I think we should just put them in the public domain since it seems too much of a headache to manage the license on them, or make it the same license as Pd.
Those 17 language files are derivative works from the 17 translations of DesireData, which involved about 20 authors. You can't put other people's work in the public domain. You can't fail to credit them either.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec
On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0.41... As for the license, I think we should just put them in the public domain since it seems too much of a headache to manage the license on them, or make it the same license as Pd.
Those 17 language files are derivative works from the 17 translations of DesireData, which involved about 20 authors. You can't put other people's work in the public domain. You can't fail to credit them either.
... and I mean you actually removed all credits from the translation files when you migrated everything to msgcat. Why would that be?
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec
On Aug 19, 2009, at 3:02 AM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0.41... As for the license, I think we should just put them in the public
domain since it seems too much of a headache to manage the license
on them, or make it the same license as Pd.Those 17 language files are derivative works from the 17
translations of DesireData, which involved about 20 authors. You
can't put other people's work in the public domain. You can't fail
to credit them either.... and I mean you actually removed all credits from the translation
files when you migrated everything to msgcat. Why would that be?
Any .po editor will automatically add the credits to the .po file once
people edit the files.
I got these words from a number of sources, mostly DesireData but
also .po files from other projects. These are much smaller than the DD
files since the Pd text differs quite a bit. The DD credits were in
the original pd-devel .msg files since they were just copied over,
then edited. In the process of being converted to pd-devel and back
and forth from .msg -> .po -> .msg, the credits and most of the old
contents didn't get included. The credits from the DD files were not
included since they weren't in a standard format and I was using the
gettext tools. Feel free to add credits to the .po files and commit
them (the .msg files are automatically generated from the .po files).
Then all the gettext tools and .po editors will keep them.
Right now, what's included is not a lot, like 30-50 words per
translation. Those 30-50 words that are the most common software
words like File, Edit, Window, Open, Save, Cut, Copy, Paste,
Properties, Close, Help, etc. You can't claim copyright on translating
those words, since there are thousands of other copies of the exact
same thing in other apps. You can claim copyright on a complete
translation, that's why I started the conversation now.
I forgot to add one detail, how to make a new translation:
- Start with the template file:
http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0.41...
2) rename it to your locale, using the language and maybe country code:
- Bulgarian has only one locale, so the file would be bg.po
- Chinese differs based on country, so it could be zh_CN.po,
zh_HK.po, or zh_TW.po
3) the file most be encoded using UTF-8
To run Pd-devel with your translation:
- svn co https://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0....
- stick your .po into 0.41.4/po/
- cd 0.41.4/src/locale
- ./generate-msg.sh (you'll need to have gettext installed)
- cd ../.. (i.e. back in the root folder of the source, 0.41.4)
- ./autogen.sh && .configure && make
Now to force it to run using a specific locale, do this on the terminal:
- export LANG=en_CA
- cd 0.41.4/src
- ./pd
.hc
¡El pueblo unido jamás será vencido!
On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
The credits from the DD files were not included since they weren't in a standard format and I was using the gettext tools. Feel free to add credits to the .po files and commit them (the .msg files are automatically generated from the .po files). Then all the gettext tools and .po editors will keep them.
So you make a mistake in credits, you invite other people to fix it for you?
Right now, what's included is not a lot, like 30-50 words per translation. Those 30-50 words that are the most common software words like File, Edit, Window, Open, Save, Cut, Copy, Paste, Properties, Close, Help, etc.
Yeah, I figured out that you have cut out a lot of words from DD's translations. I haven't compared very closely yet.
You can't claim copyright on translating those words, since there are thousands of other copies of the exact same thing in other apps.
Look, if there are thousands of copies of the exact same thing in other apps, then why did you make the Devel branch support exactly the same 17 languages as the Desiredata branch does? You must have thought of a reason... it is not a pure coïncidence.
You can claim copyright on a complete translation, that's why I started the conversation now.
So, when does a translation start to be complete enough to be copyrightable?
Do you think you can reach all the past translators by writing to pd-list?
Now to force it to run using a specific locale, do this on the terminal:
- export LANG=en_CA
- cd 0.41.4/src
- ./pd
Btw, I don't claim that my english.tcl is especially representing en_CA. It could be closer to en_GB but I don't know for sure. it could still have bits specific to en_US in it.
Also, which language is the "no" code refers to? there isn't even a language standard called just "norwegian".
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec
If you think its a problem I will remove them. Like I said, I started
with the DD files for testing. What's left is just the very common
words, like File, Save, etc.
- Ben Bogart wrote en_CA.po from scratch.
- Federico Ferri wrote the it.po.
.hc
On Aug 19, 2009, at 12:05 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
The credits from the DD files were not included since they weren't
in a standard format and I was using the gettext tools. Feel free
to add credits to the .po files and commit them (the .msg files are
automatically generated from the .po files). Then all the gettext
tools and .po editors will keep them.So you make a mistake in credits, you invite other people to fix it
for you?Right now, what's included is not a lot, like 30-50 words per
translation. Those 30-50 words that are the most common software
words like File, Edit, Window, Open, Save, Cut, Copy, Paste,
Properties, Close, Help, etc.Yeah, I figured out that you have cut out a lot of words from DD's
translations. I haven't compared very closely yet.You can't claim copyright on translating those words, since there
are thousands of other copies of the exact same thing in other apps.Look, if there are thousands of copies of the exact same thing in
other apps, then why did you make the Devel branch support exactly
the same 17 languages as the Desiredata branch does? You must have
thought of a reason... it is not a pure coïncidence.You can claim copyright on a complete translation, that's why I
started the conversation now.So, when does a translation start to be complete enough to be
copyrightable?Do you think you can reach all the past translators by writing to pd- list?
Now to force it to run using a specific locale, do this on the
terminal:
- export LANG=en_CA
- cd 0.41.4/src
- ./pd
Btw, I don't claim that my english.tcl is especially representing
en_CA. It could be closer to en_GB but I don't know for sure. it
could still have bits specific to en_US in it.Also, which language is the "no" code refers to? there isn't even a
language standard called just "norwegian"._ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec
Information wants to be free. -Stewart Brand
On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
If you think its a problem I will remove them. Like I said, I started with the DD files for testing. What's left is just the very common words, like File, Save, etc.
- Ben Bogart wrote en_CA.po from scratch.
- Federico Ferri wrote the it.po.
Oh ok. nevermind then.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec
On Aug 19, 2009, at 1:33 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
If you think its a problem I will remove them. Like I said, I
started with the DD files for testing. What's left is just the
very common words, like File, Save, etc.
- Ben Bogart wrote en_CA.po from scratch.
- Federico Ferri wrote the it.po.
Oh ok. nevermind then.
Just to make sure there is a perfectly clean copyright status on these
files, I removed anything with an unclear copyright, and generated
some new locales based on public domain files. gettext sure makes it
easy to work with .po files. :-D
http://translationproject.org/latest/xchat/be.po http://translationproject.org/latest/xchat/eu.po http://translationproject.org/latest/gnuedu/ru.po http://translationproject.org/PO-files/pa/xchat-2.6.0.pa.po http://translationproject.org/latest/xchat/hi.po http://translationproject.org/PO-files/af/xchat-2.8.6.af.po http://translationproject.org/PO-files/bg/xchat-2.4.5.bg.po http://translationproject.org/PO-files/az/xchat-2.4.5.az.po http://translationproject.org/latest/xchat/gu.po http://translationproject.org/PO-files/vi/xchat-2.4.5.vi.po
.hc
As we enjoy great advantages from inventions of others, we should be
glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours; and
this we should do freely and generously. - Benjamin Franklin
On Thu, 20 Aug 2009, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Just to make sure there is a perfectly clean copyright status on these files, I removed anything with an unclear copyright, and generated some new locales based on public domain files.
I don't think there's any real problem with you using translations from DesireData, if only you honour the names of the translators.
It depends on your ambitions though. If you decide to limit yourself to words that are the same in any software, then it doesn't matter, but if you want translation for Pd-specific things, then it would make sense to make use of DesireData's translations. There's a difference between translating 50 words and translating 500 phrases. What I made the translators do, is to translate 500 phrases.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec
On Aug 20, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Thu, 20 Aug 2009, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Just to make sure there is a perfectly clean copyright status on
these files, I removed anything with an unclear copyright, and
generated some new locales based on public domain files.I don't think there's any real problem with you using translations
from DesireData, if only you honour the names of the translators.It depends on your ambitions though. If you decide to limit yourself
to words that are the same in any software, then it doesn't matter,
but if you want translation for Pd-specific things, then it would
make sense to make use of DesireData's translations. There's a
difference between translating 50 words and translating 500 phrases.
What I made the translators do, is to translate 500 phrases.
Exactly! We need real translations like the ones that Federico and
Ben did, what I've put up are just placeholders. Plus it is fun to
see Hindi, Gujarati, etc. in Pd. The copyright should be clear so we
don't have to deal with it later.
.hc
I hate it when they say, "He gave his life for his country." Nobody
gives their life for anything. We steal the lives of these kids. -
Admiral Gene LeRocque
Hello everybody,
I've attached a preliminary Hungarian translation. Pd internal terms (Array etc) are left untouched. I would be happy to continue with a longer template, if any.
Hey András,
Thanks for that, just checked it in. Right now I want to get
different translations of for testing the charset issues. There will
be a longer template soon, once the audio/midi/startup/paths
preferences panels are added to the template.
.hc
On Aug 21, 2009, at 12:03 PM, András Murányi wrote:
Hello everybody,
I've attached a preliminary Hungarian translation. Pd internal terms
(Array etc) are left untouched. I would be happy to continue with a longer template, if any.-- Muranyi Andras
On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner
hans@at.or.at wrote:On Aug 19, 2009, at 3:02 AM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: On Tue, 18 Aug 2009, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0.41... As for the license, I think we should just put them in the public
domain since it seems too much of a headache to manage the license
on them, or make it the same license as Pd.Those 17 language files are derivative works from the 17
translations of DesireData, which involved about 20 authors. You
can't put other people's work in the public domain. You can't fail
to credit them either.... and I mean you actually removed all credits from the translation
files when you migrated everything to msgcat. Why would that be?Any .po editor will automatically add the credits to the .po file
once people edit the files.I got these words from a number of sources, mostly DesireData but
also .po files from other projects. These are much smaller than the
DD files since the Pd text differs quite a bit. The DD credits were
in the original pd-devel .msg files since they were just copied
over, then edited. In the process of being converted to pd-devel
and back and forth from .msg -> .po -> .msg, the credits and most of
the old contents didn't get included. The credits from the DD files
were not included since they weren't in a standard format and I was
using the gettext tools. Feel free to add credits to the .po files
and commit them (the .msg files are automatically generated from
the .po files). Then all the gettext tools and .po editors will
keep them.Right now, what's included is not a lot, like 30-50 words per
translation. Those 30-50 words that are the most common software
words like File, Edit, Window, Open, Save, Cut, Copy, Paste,
Properties, Close, Help, etc. You can't claim copyright on
translating those words, since there are thousands of other copies
of the exact same thing in other apps. You can claim copyright on a
complete translation, that's why I started the conversation now.I forgot to add one detail, how to make a new translation:
- Start with the template file:
http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0.41... 2) rename it to your locale, using the language and maybe country
code: - Bulgarian has only one locale, so the file would be bg.po - Chinese differs based on country, so it could be zh_CN.po,
zh_HK.po, or zh_TW.po 3) the file most be encoded using UTF-8To run Pd-devel with your translation:
- svn co https://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0....
- stick your .po into 0.41.4/po/
- cd 0.41.4/src/locale
- ./generate-msg.sh (you'll need to have gettext installed)
- cd ../.. (i.e. back in the root folder of the source, 0.41.4)
- ./autogen.sh && .configure && make
Now to force it to run using a specific locale, do this on the
terminal:
- export LANG=en_CA
- cd 0.41.4/src
- ./pd
.hc
<hu_HU.po>
"[T]he greatest purveyor of violence in the world today [is] my own
government." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
I forgot to add one detail, how to make a new translation:
- Start with the template file:
http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0.41... 2) rename it to your locale, using the language and maybe country code:
- Bulgarian has only one locale, so the file would be bg.po
- Chinese differs based on country, so it could be zh_CN.po, zh_HK.po,
or zh_TW.po 3) the file most be encoded using UTF-8
To run Pd-devel with your translation:
- svn co
https://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0.... 2) stick your .po into 0.41.4/po/ 3) cd 0.41.4/src/locale 4) ./generate-msg.sh (you'll need to have gettext installed) 5) cd ../.. (i.e. back in the root folder of the source, 0.41.4) 6) ./autogen.sh && .configure && make
Hi,
I could have some time to work on this, the portugal portuguese version.
what are the steps to take on a windows system?
On Aug 26, 2009, at 8:34 AM, João Pais wrote:
I forgot to add one detail, how to make a new translation:
- Start with the template file:
http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0.41... 2) rename it to your locale, using the language and maybe country
code:
- Bulgarian has only one locale, so the file would be bg.po
- Chinese differs based on country, so it could be zh_CN.po,
zh_HK.po, or zh_TW.po 3) the file most be encoded using UTF-8
To run Pd-devel with your translation:
- svn co https://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0....
- stick your .po into 0.41.4/po/
- cd 0.41.4/src/locale
- ./generate-msg.sh (you'll need to have gettext installed)
- cd ../.. (i.e. back in the root folder of the source, 0.41.4)
- ./autogen.sh && .configure && make
Hi,
I could have some time to work on this, the portugal portuguese
version. what are the steps to take on a windows system?
I haven't built it yet on Windows, but will soon. But you don't need
to run it to make a translation. I started a howto to outline the
process, please add to it anything that is relevant:
http://puredata.info/dev/HowToTranslatePd
.hc
As we enjoy great advantages from inventions of others, we should be
glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours; and
this we should do freely and generously. - Benjamin Franklin
and for the terms that stay the same as in english, do I have to input
them, or just let the space empty?
On Aug 26, 2009, at 8:34 AM, João Pais wrote:
I forgot to add one detail, how to make a new translation:
- Start with the template file:
http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0.41... 2) rename it to your locale, using the language and maybe country code:
- Bulgarian has only one locale, so the file would be bg.po
- Chinese differs based on country, so it could be zh_CN.po,
zh_HK.po, or zh_TW.po 3) the file most be encoded using UTF-8
To run Pd-devel with your translation:
- svn co
https://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0.... 2) stick your .po into 0.41.4/po/ 3) cd 0.41.4/src/locale 4) ./generate-msg.sh (you'll need to have gettext installed) 5) cd ../.. (i.e. back in the root folder of the source, 0.41.4) 6) ./autogen.sh && .configure && make
Hi,
I could have some time to work on this, the portugal portuguese
version. what are the steps to take on a windows system?I haven't built it yet on Windows, but will soon. But you don't need to
run it to make a translation. I started a howto to outline the process,
please add to it anything that is relevant:
Yes, the English terms are the keys, don't change them. A good editor
program should make that apparent, that one reason to use a PO editor
instead of a text editor.
Also, if you want the text to be the same as the english text, leave
the entry blank, and it'll do the right thing.
.hc
On Aug 26, 2009, at 1:52 PM, João Pais wrote:
and for the terms that stay the same as in english, do I have to
input them, or just let the space empty?On Aug 26, 2009, at 8:34 AM, João Pais wrote:
I forgot to add one detail, how to make a new translation:
- Start with the template file:
http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0.41... 2) rename it to your locale, using the language and maybe country
code:
- Bulgarian has only one locale, so the file would be bg.po
- Chinese differs based on country, so it could be zh_CN.po,
zh_HK.po, or zh_TW.po 3) the file most be encoded using UTF-8
To run Pd-devel with your translation:
- svn co https://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0....
- stick your .po into 0.41.4/po/
- cd 0.41.4/src/locale
- ./generate-msg.sh (you'll need to have gettext installed)
- cd ../.. (i.e. back in the root folder of the source, 0.41.4)
- ./autogen.sh && .configure && make
Hi,
I could have some time to work on this, the portugal portuguese
version. what are the steps to take on a windows system?I haven't built it yet on Windows, but will soon. But you don't
need to run it to make a translation. I started a howto to outline
the process, please add to it anything that is relevant:
Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to
realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either
change them, or perish. -William Carlos Williams
I isntalled the PO editor, it works quite well.
any tcl/tk guru here? doesn tcl/tk documentation exist in several
languages? that might help a bit, right? (I looked briefly for something,
but couldn't find much)
Yes, the English terms are the keys, don't change them. A good editor
program should make that apparent, that one reason to use a PO editor
instead of a text editor.Also, if you want the text to be the same as the english text, leave the
entry blank, and it'll do the right thing..hc
On Aug 26, 2009, at 1:52 PM, João Pais wrote:
and for the terms that stay the same as in english, do I have to input
them, or just let the space empty?On Aug 26, 2009, at 8:34 AM, João Pais wrote:
I forgot to add one detail, how to make a new translation:
- Start with the template file:
http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0.41... 2) rename it to your locale, using the language and maybe country
code:
- Bulgarian has only one locale, so the file would be bg.po
- Chinese differs based on country, so it could be zh_CN.po,
zh_HK.po, or zh_TW.po 3) the file most be encoded using UTF-8
To run Pd-devel with your translation:
- svn co
https://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0.... 2) stick your .po into 0.41.4/po/ 3) cd 0.41.4/src/locale 4) ./generate-msg.sh (you'll need to have gettext installed) 5) cd ../.. (i.e. back in the root folder of the source, 0.41.4) 6) ./autogen.sh && .configure && make
Hi,
I could have some time to work on this, the portugal portuguese
version. what are the steps to take on a windows system?I haven't built it yet on Windows, but will soon. But you don't need
to run it to make a translation. I started a howto to outline the
process, please add to it anything that is relevant:
Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to
realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either change
them, or perish. -William Carlos Williams
On Aug 26, 2009, at 6:04 PM, João Pais wrote:
I isntalled the PO editor, it works quite well.
Which one? It would be good to keep tabs on which ones work well. I
didn't have very good luck with POedit, but I didn't try that hard.
gtranslator seemed nicer. LocFactory Editor is good too, but non-free
and Mac OS X only.
any tcl/tk guru here? doesn tcl/tk documentation exist in several
languages? that might help a bit, right? (I looked briefly for
something, but couldn't find much)
There are some people here who know enough Tcl. But I don't think Tcl
knowledge is needed for any translations. What's the question?
.hc
Yes, the English terms are the keys, don't change them. A good
editor program should make that apparent, that one reason to use a
PO editor instead of a text editor.Also, if you want the text to be the same as the english text,
leave the entry blank, and it'll do the right thing..hc
On Aug 26, 2009, at 1:52 PM, João Pais wrote:
and for the terms that stay the same as in english, do I have to
input them, or just let the space empty?On Aug 26, 2009, at 8:34 AM, João Pais wrote:
I forgot to add one detail, how to make a new translation:
- Start with the template file:
http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0.41... 2) rename it to your locale, using the language and maybe
country code:
- Bulgarian has only one locale, so the file would be bg.po
- Chinese differs based on country, so it could be zh_CN.po,
zh_HK.po, or zh_TW.po 3) the file most be encoded using UTF-8
To run Pd-devel with your translation:
- svn co https://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0....
- stick your .po into 0.41.4/po/
- cd 0.41.4/src/locale
- ./generate-msg.sh (you'll need to have gettext installed)
- cd ../.. (i.e. back in the root folder of the source,
0.41.4) 6) ./autogen.sh && .configure && make
Hi,
I could have some time to work on this, the portugal portuguese
version. what are the steps to take on a windows system?I haven't built it yet on Windows, but will soon. But you don't
need to run it to make a translation. I started a howto to
outline the process, please add to it anything that is relevant:
Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how
to realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must
either change them, or perish. -William Carlos Williams-- Friedenstr. 58 10249 Berlin (Deutschland) Tel +49 30 42020091 | Mob +49 162 6843570 Studio +49 30 69509190 jmmmpais@googlemail.com | skype: jmmmpjmmmp
Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to
realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either
change them, or perish. -William Carlos Williams
I isntalled the PO editor, it works quite well.
Which one? It would be good to keep tabs on which ones work well. I
didn't have very good luck with POedit, but I didn't try that hard.
gtranslator seemed nicer. LocFactory Editor is good too, but non-free
and Mac OS X only.
Poedit, I think it's helping.
any tcl/tk guru here? doesn tcl/tk documentation exist in several
languages? that might help a bit, right? (I looked briefly for
something, but couldn't find much)There are some people here who know enough Tcl. But I don't think Tcl
knowledge is needed for any translations. What's the question?
just in case tcl terms like "canvas" or something else menu-related would
already be translated, it would be easier to get that information.
On Aug 26, 2009, at 6:21 PM, João Pais wrote:
I isntalled the PO editor, it works quite well.
Which one? It would be good to keep tabs on which ones work well.
I didn't have very good luck with POedit, but I didn't try that
hard. gtranslator seemed nicer. LocFactory Editor is good too,
but non-free and Mac OS X only.Poedit, I think it's helping.
any tcl/tk guru here? doesn tcl/tk documentation exist in several
languages? that might help a bit, right? (I looked briefly for
something, but couldn't find much)There are some people here who know enough Tcl. But I don't think
Tcl knowledge is needed for any translations. What's the question?just in case tcl terms like "canvas" or something else menu-related
would already be translated, it would be easier to get that
information.
From the Terminal on GNU/Linux:
setenv LANG pt_PT gnome-text-editor
Or something like that. Or you can find lots of .po files online.
.hc
Information wants to be free. -Stewart Brand
One problem, that might happen in other languages: as I understood,
official terms like toggle, array, number2 etc don't get translated,
right? (I think it's better not to)
There is one word, number, which is used for the object, and for the
properties window of radios. The correct translation would be number for
the object, and número for the properties window. but that would only
happen now if someone changed the tcl file, right?
Is the master .po file correct? Some terms are missing, like no_scale, and
other names that appear on top of different properties' windows (like
canvas, f.e.)
Should you include also the commands specific to pd-ext? (I guess only in
the help menu)
setenv LANG pt_PT gnome-text-editor
I have open office in port open already
Or something like that. Or you can find lots of .po files online.
crap, they're almost all in brazilian (only 10M portuguese in Portugal)
I've done all except for ~12. Anyway someone else should check them as
well. Is there a reference to where string X is used? I'm opening all
windows/dialogues in Pd to see what's the context of each file, but can't
tell where these belong. (I can translate them "blindly", but that's not
so good)
Oh, and got 2 fatal errors in the translation.
On Aug 26, 2009, at 7:08 PM, João Pais wrote:
One problem, that might happen in other languages: as I understood,
official terms like toggle, array, number2 etc don't get translated,
right? (I think it's better not to) There is one word, number, which is used for the object, and for the
properties window of radios. The correct translation would be number
for the object, and número for the properties window. but that would
only happen now if someone changed the tcl file, right?
That's really up to the translator, and people who speak that
language. In some languages, people will want more english terms, in
other languages less.
FWIW, there isn't a "number" object, the object is called 'floatatom',
so in English the word "Number" on the Put menu is used as an abstract
concept rather than a specific object name. Also, "Toggle" creates a
[tgl], Vslider creates a [vsl], etc. Some people have translated
those terms.
Is the master .po file correct? Some terms are missing, like
no_scale, and other names that appear on top of different
properties' windows (like canvas, f.e.) Should you include also the commands specific to pd-ext? (I guess
only in the help menu)
Not everything is localized yet, the way the iemguis are implemented
makes them hard to localize. The text on the C side has not been
localized at all, like the 'pd -help' text. That would
setenv LANG pt_PT gnome-text-editor
I have open office in port open already
Or something like that. Or you can find lots of .po files online.
crap, they're almost all in brazilian (only 10M portuguese in
Portugal)I've done all except for ~12. Anyway someone else should check them
as well. Is there a reference to where string X is used? I'm opening
all windows/dialogues in Pd to see what's the context of each file,
but can't tell where these belong. (I can translate them "blindly",
but that's not so good)Oh, and got 2 fatal errors in the translation.<pt.po>
Cool, please fix the fatal errors if you can, they are probably
because the fields in the header (like your name, etc) are not filled
out. If you don't want to put data in those fields, remove the line.
Add it to the patch tracker once you are done, and we'll take it from
there!
.hc
I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my
telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out
how to use my telephone." --Bjarne Stroustrup
Hello,
i've attached an updated hu.po file. Translating brought up some questions for me btw:
- What is 'use callbacks'? sorry i dont have an idea could someone explain
please?
- Another one i'm not sure i understand: 'ERROR: %s failed to find font size
(%s) that fits into %sx%s!'
- what's the ultimate rationale behind having both Number and Number2 in the
menu...?
Thanks,
On Aug 27, 2009, at 7:33 PM, András Murányi wrote:
Hello,
i've attached an updated hu.po file. Translating brought up some questions for me btw:
- What is 'use callbacks'? sorry i dont have an idea could someone
explain please?
That's for interfacing with the audio API, use callbacks instead of
polling. Its a pretty low level technical thing.
- Another one i'm not sure i understand: 'ERROR: %s failed to find
font size (%s) that fits into %sx%s!'
The object/message boxes have a fixed size. This code measures the
font to fit into the existing box sizes. If it can't find one, then
it gives this error. It should really be a warning, since things will
still work ok. Basically it would read like this:
ERROR: FreeMono failed to find font size (12) that fits into 7x15 Freemono is the font name 12 is pd's font size 7x15 is size of a character box in pixels.
- what's the ultimate rationale behind having both Number and
Number2 in the menu...?
Number is the simple one, Number2 has more config options and is part
of the IEM GUI collection.
Please submit it to the patch tracker so we can keep track of what
need doing :)
.hc
Thanks,
-- Muranyi Andras <hu.po>_______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
'You people have such restrictive dress for women,’ she said, hobbling
away in three inch heels and panty hose to finish out another pink-
collar temp pool day. - “Hijab Scene #2", by Mohja Kahf
2009/8/28 Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at
On Aug 27, 2009, at 7:33 PM, András Murányi wrote:
Hello,
i've attached an updated hu.po file. Translating brought up some questions for me btw:
- What is 'use callbacks'? sorry i dont have an idea could someone explain
please?
That's for interfacing with the audio API, use callbacks instead of polling. Its a pretty low level technical thing.
Huh. ;o)
- Another one i'm not sure i understand: 'ERROR: %s failed to find font
size (%s) that fits into %sx%s!'
The object/message boxes have a fixed size. This code measures the font to fit into the existing box sizes. If it can't find one, then it gives this error. It should really be a warning, since things will still work ok. Basically it would read like this:
ERROR: FreeMono failed to find font size (12) that fits into 7x15 Freemono is the font name 12 is pd's font size 7x15 is size of a character box in pixels.
Alrite, i understand the scenario, but i don't fully understand the quoted sentence. Perhaps i also don't understand how the code works. First do we wish to imply for any reason that the *font is the one* who tried to find a font size? Then what is actually finding a font size? I understand that we have a given font but then we measure what and try to find what? Please, i'm still in the maze ;o)
- what's the ultimate rationale behind having both Number and Number2 in
the menu...?
Number is the simple one, Number2 has more config options and is part of the IEM GUI collection.
So for me to understand, we have them both because we don't have Number2 by default with Vanilla, did i understand right?
Please submit it to the patch tracker so we can keep track of what need doing :)
I will :)
On Aug 27, 2009, at 8:39 PM, András Murányi wrote:
2009/8/28 Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at
On Aug 27, 2009, at 7:33 PM, András Murányi wrote:
Hello,
i've attached an updated hu.po file. Translating brought up some questions for me btw:
- What is 'use callbacks'? sorry i dont have an idea could someone
explain please?
That's for interfacing with the audio API, use callbacks instead of
polling. Its a pretty low level technical thing.Huh. ;o)
- Another one i'm not sure i understand: 'ERROR: %s failed to find
font size (%s) that fits into %sx%s!'
The object/message boxes have a fixed size. This code measures the
font to fit into the existing box sizes. If it can't find one, then
it gives this error. It should really be a warning, since things
will still work ok. Basically it would read like this:ERROR: FreeMono failed to find font size (12) that fits into 7x15 Freemono is the font name 12 is pd's font size 7x15 is size of a character box in pixels.
Alrite, i understand the scenario, but i don't fully understand the
quoted sentence. Perhaps i also don't understand how the code works.
First do we wish to imply for any reason that the *font is the one*
who tried to find a font size? Then what is actually finding a font
size? I understand that we have a given font but then we measure
what and try to find what? Please, i'm still in the maze ;o)
I guess it should read something more like:
WARNING: failed to find font size for %s that fits into %sx%s (%s)! WARNING: failed to find font size for FreeMono that fits into 7x15 (12)
- what's the ultimate rationale behind having both Number and
Number2 in the menu...?
Number is the simple one, Number2 has more config options and is
part of the IEM GUI collection.So for me to understand, we have them both because we don't have
Number2 by default with Vanilla, did i understand right?
They are both in Vanilla. Some people like Number, some people like
Number2... I think that's the only reason why they are both there.
.hc
Please submit it to the patch tracker so we can keep track of what
need doing :)I will :)
-- Muranyi Andras _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Access to computers should be unlimited and total. - the hacker ethic
On Fri, 28 Aug 2009, András Murányi wrote:
So for me to understand, we have them both because we don't have Number2 by default with Vanilla, did i understand right?
Number2 ([nbx]) is in vanilla since 2001 or so.
Number2 exists because it comes from an external library that was merged into vanilla back then.
Number1 still exists because Number2 isn't backwards-compatible with Number1 and so can't actually replace it. Number2 couldn't be made backwards-compatible anymore because it was already used by those who started pd with -lib iemgui.
Actually, a special constructor could have been made for that case, similar to how [hradio] and [vradio] also exist as [hdl] and [vdl], but there's also a big mismatch of options between Number1 and Number2, such that it isn't really easy to merge Number1 and Number2 without making a more complicated whole with even more options.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
2009/8/28 Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca
On Fri, 28 Aug 2009, András Murányi wrote:
So for me to understand, we have them both because we don't have Number2
by default with Vanilla, did i understand right?
Number2 ([nbx]) is in vanilla since 2001 or so.
Number2 exists because it comes from an external library that was merged into vanilla back then.
Number1 still exists because Number2 isn't backwards-compatible with Number1 and so can't actually replace it. Number2 couldn't be made backwards-compatible anymore because it was already used by those who started pd with -lib iemgui.
Actually, a special constructor could have been made for that case, similar to how [hradio] and [vradio] also exist as [hdl] and [vdl], but there's also a big mismatch of options between Number1 and Number2, such that it isn't really easy to merge Number1 and Number2 without making a more complicated whole with even more options.
Thanks a lot for the explanation! At the end, do we need them both in the Put menu...?
Andras
--- On Fri, 8/28/09, András Murányi muranyia@gmail.com wrote:
From: András Murányi muranyia@gmail.com Subject: Re: [PD] call for translations for new Pd GUI To: pd-list@iem.at Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 3:50 AM 2009/8/28 Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca
On Fri, 28 Aug 2009, András Murányi wrote:
So for me to understand, we have them both because we don't have Number2 by
default with Vanilla, did i understand right?
Number2 ([nbx]) is in vanilla since 2001 or so.
Number2 exists because it comes from an external library that was merged into vanilla back then.
Number1 still exists because Number2 isn't backwards-compatible with Number1 and so can't actually replace it. Number2 couldn't be made backwards-compatible anymore because it was already used by those who started pd with -lib iemgui.
Actually, a special constructor could have been made for that case, similar to how [hradio] and [vradio] also exist as [hdl] and [vdl], but there's also a big mismatch of options between Number1 and Number2, such that it isn't really easy to merge Number1 and Number2 without making a more complicated whole with even more options.
Thanks a lot for the explanation! At the end, do we need them both in the Put menu...?
Andras
All the native gui objects available in Pd Vanilla are listed in the Put menu, so it would seem odd to remove just one of them. Plus, you can't create a number atom by typing a name into an object box. It's only created through the Put menu, or by its shortcut <ctrl-3> (well, dynamic patching too). Removing it from the Put menu makes it an obscure object.
You could advocate moving Number2 up in the list and giving it the <ctrl-3> shortcut, but it currently has some annoying features like:
- the number turns red when you scroll
- its too wide (almost twice as wide as number atom at width = 5)
- label size will change the size of the number
- its hard to put the output range back to default once you've changed it
Given those drawbacks, I prefer just using "Number" instead of "Number2."
-Jonathan
2009/8/28 Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com
Number2 exists because it comes from an external library that was merged into vanilla back then.
Number1 still exists because Number2 isn't backwards-compatible with Number1 and so can't actually replace it. Number2 couldn't be made backwards-compatible anymore because it was already used by those who started pd with -lib iemgui.
Actually, a special constructor could have been made for that case, similar to how [hradio] and [vradio] also exist as [hdl] and [vdl], but there's also a big mismatch of options between Number1 and Number2, such that it isn't really easy to merge Number1 and Number2 without making a more complicated whole with even more options.
Thanks a lot for the explanation! At the end, do we need them both in the Put menu...?
All the native gui objects available in Pd Vanilla are listed in the Put menu, so it would seem odd to remove just one of them. Plus, you can't create a number atom by typing a name into an object box. It's only created through the Put menu, or by its shortcut <ctrl-3> (well, dynamic patching too). Removing it from the Put menu makes it an obscure object.
You could advocate moving Number2 up in the list and giving it the <ctrl-3> shortcut, but it currently has some annoying features like:
- the number turns red when you scroll
- its too wide (almost twice as wide as number atom at width = 5)
- label size will change the size of the number
- its hard to put the output range back to default once you've changed it
Given those drawbacks, I prefer just using "Number" instead of "Number2."
Oooo-kay! From the perspective of a translator, this is kind of embarassing, from the perspective of the systematic mind ("the Programmer"!) still a little bit embarassing, but from a personal point a view, just makes me love her more!! ;o) Thanks for the details. Would be nice to wikify this kind of wisdom - maybe our grandsons will do that? ;o)
On Aug 28, 2009, at 3:15 PM, András Murányi wrote:
2009/8/28 Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com
Number2 exists because it comes from an external library that was merged into vanilla back then.
Number1 still exists because Number2 isn't backwards-compatible with Number1 and so can't actually replace it. Number2 couldn't be made backwards-compatible anymore because it was already used by those who started pd with -lib iemgui.
Actually, a special constructor could have been made for that case, similar to how [hradio] and [vradio] also exist as [hdl] and [vdl], but there's also a big mismatch of options between Number1 and Number2, such that it isn't really easy to merge Number1 and Number2 without making a more complicated whole with even more options.
Thanks a lot for the explanation! At the end, do we need them both in the Put menu...?
All the native gui objects available in Pd Vanilla are listed in the
Put menu, so it would seem odd to remove just one of them. Plus, you
can't create a number atom by typing a name into an object box. It's only created through the Put menu, or by its shortcut <ctrl-3> (well,
dynamic patching too). Removing it from the Put menu makes it an obscure
object.You could advocate moving Number2 up in the list and giving it the <ctrl-3> shortcut, but it currently has some annoying features like:
- the number turns red when you scroll
- its too wide (almost twice as wide as number atom at width = 5)
- label size will change the size of the number
- its hard to put the output range back to default once you've
changed it
Given those drawbacks, I prefer just using "Number" instead of
"Number2."Oooo-kay! From the perspective of a translator, this is kind of
embarassing, from the perspective of the systematic mind ("the
Programmer"!) still a little bit embarassing, but from a personal
point a view, just makes me love her more!! ;o) Thanks for the details. Would be nice to wikify this kind of wisdom
- maybe our grandsons will do that? ;o)
pdpedia exists, its open for editing: http://pdpedia.org
Information wants to be free. -Stewart Brand
tabplay~-help.pd - I'd like to remove all instances of the word "sample" where it's used roughly to mean "a fragment of digitized sound." This use of the term is problematic because "sample" is also used to refer to a discrete value on the x-axis.
So I'd like to change: "Play a table as a sample (non-transposing)"
to
"Play a table (non-tranposing)"
Does this make sense?
-Jonathan
Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans <at> at.or.at> writes:
So, now's a good time to start contributing. Fix up the languages
that are there, or add more languages or even country-specific
versions of a language. Here are the files: http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0.41...
Hello to all,
I'm a PD beginner living in Greece. I saw your "call for translations"
and was interested
in helping translating the app for the Greek language. I'm now a pd-list
member because of this call. So, I have allready translated
in Poedit and LocFactory Editor (as recommended)
all the template from SourceForge.
I have some problems that your guidance would be appreciated,
because it's my FIRST attempt in something like that.
-The first one is what I should do with "PureData language specific"
terms. I recommend for terms like: Object, Atom Box, Symbol, Bang, Slider, Patch etc that no Greek translation should be done. Yes, of course I know what an "Object" means , and "Atom Box" could easily be translated, but wouldn't it be a drawback for users? Even for me, the translator of the app would be confusing if all tutorials / help patches/ lists were using them... and then I had to face with terms: Object, Slider, Patch, DSP etc translated in Greek language in my installed App! I asked a friend of mine and he wouldn't use the translated app either! I find it like translating the MIDI acronyms. Too ugly and scary... As a conclusion, I left some terms as they are. I want your opinion.
-The second problem is that nowhere in Poedit is
mentioned my contribution :| . The only thing shown is
something about "last translator" in LocFactory Editor.
I don't mind about the licence but wouldn't it be right for
me to impress girls in my college more easily after
my work in translation of the PD app????
-The third problem is: when I' m completely finished,
where I should upload the .po file and how?
-The last and more serious problem is that I can't
test my gr.po file. Everything needs to be done with
sudo to run and be installed properly and when I reach
the commands from your guide:
$ ./autogen.sh && .configure && make
there are some errors in the terminal: rm: src/config*: No such file or directory rm: src/makefile*: No such file or directory ./autogen.sh: line 13: libtoolize: command not found
I think no problems were in the gettext installation. I' m on an intel Macbook Pro 2008, with MacOSX Leopard.
Thank you,
George Ker
http://www.friendfeed.com/georgeker http://www.facebook.com/george.ker
On Aug 21, 2009, at 10:25 AM, George Ker wrote:
Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans <at> at.or.at> writes:
So, now's a good time to start contributing. Fix up the languages that are there, or add more languages or even country-specific versions of a language. Here are the files: http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/branches/pd-devel/0.41...
Hello to all, I'm a PD beginner living in Greece. I saw your "call for
translations" and was interested in helping translating the app for the Greek language. I'm now a pd- list member because of this call. So, I have allready translated in Poedit and LocFactory Editor (as recommended) all the template from SourceForge. I have some problems that your guidance would be appreciated, because it's my FIRST attempt in something like that.
Welcome!
-The first one is what I should do with "PureData language specific"terms. I recommend for terms like: Object, Atom Box, Symbol, Bang, Slider, Patch etc that no Greek translation should be done. Yes, of course I know what an "Object" means , and "Atom Box" could easily be translated, but wouldn't it be a drawback for users? Even for me, the translator of the app would be confusing if all tutorials / help patches/ lists were using them... and then I had to face with terms: Object, Slider, Patch, DSP etc translated in Greek language in my installed App! I asked a friend of mine and he wouldn't use the translated app either! I find it like translating the MIDI acronyms. Too ugly and scary... As a conclusion, I left some terms as they are. I want your opinion.
There has been lots of debate on that topic. I think it really
depends on what people think will make the most sense in that language.
-The second problem is that nowhere in Poedit ismentioned my contribution :| . The only thing shown is something about "last translator" in LocFactory Editor. I don't mind about the licence but wouldn't it be right for me to impress girls in my college more easily after my work in translation of the PD app????
I think you have to set up your information in the preferences, but I
don't know anything beyond that.
-The third problem is: when I' m completely finished, where I should upload the .po file and how?
Post it to the list here, and someone with SVN commit access can add it.
-The last and more serious problem is that I can't test my gr.po file. Everything needs to be done with sudo to run and be installed properly and when I reach the commands from your guide: $ ./autogen.sh && .configure && make
there are some errors in the terminal: rm: src/config*: No such file or directory rm: src/makefile*: No such file or directory ./autogen.sh: line 13: libtoolize: command not found
I think no problems were in the gettext installation. I' m on an intel Macbook Pro 2008, with MacOSX Leopard.
You need to install GNU libtool. Using Fink is the way that the Mac
OS X builds of Pd use. http://finkproject.org. Or really, I should
make a build system that doesn't need libtool... coming soon.
.hc
Thank you,
George Ker
http://www.friendfeed.com/georgeker http://www.facebook.com/george.ker
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
I hate it when they say, "He gave his life for his country." Nobody
gives their life for anything. We steal the lives of these kids. -
Admiral Gene LeRocque
On Fri, 21 Aug 2009, George Ker wrote:
I recommend for terms like: Object, Atom Box, Symbol, Bang, Slider, Patch etc that no Greek translation should be done. Yes, of course I know what an "Object" means , and "Atom Box" could easily be translated, but wouldn't it be a drawback for users?
When I originally got 17 translations of Pd some years ago, what I received mostly translated "Slider" into their own language (a majority of the 16 non-English language files), instead of keeping it as-is. It depends on which word. Toggle was less often translated, and Bang was almost always kept as-is.
I think it's mostly better to translate the words than not, even though a fair amount of the population sticks with English just so that the computer vocabulary is in English. There is plenty of room for localisations that would use the English words for computer vocabulary, but somehow, it seems no-one ever bothers making any.
I live in a society where the opposition between the two manners of speaking is intense. Basically, we're so self-conscious about how much English we use in talking about computer things, that we can't possibly write a book with those words: all those words have to be translated to French. AFAIK, other places in the world are becoming more sensitive to that. I just happened to live in a place where it mattered more and it mattered earlier.
Even for me, the translator of the app would be confusing if all tutorials / help patches/ lists were using them... and then I had to face with terms: Object, Slider, Patch, DSP etc translated in Greek language in my installed App! I asked a friend of mine and he wouldn't use the translated app either! I find it like translating the MIDI acronyms. Too ugly and scary...
Where's the ugliness coming from? a shame insidiously infused into your people by the American Empire? You didn't question the beauty of the English words when you learned them, did you? I didn't either. I talk like that because it's a problem that I'm all too familiar with. It took me a long time to figure out the "ugliness" factor... and factor it out... to the extent that we can.
Besides, much of my computer is running in English, because I've ran it in English for way too long, out of habit, just like you; yet if I set up Linux in some (French-language) institution, I install it in French without asking anyone's advice. It's just normal. I may switch my own computer to French someday, and I already switched the default language of webpages to be French (but it only works on multilanguage pages that support it and detect it).
I don't mind about the licence but wouldn't it be right for me to impress girls in my college more easily after my work in translation of the PD app????
Contrast this with the DesireData translations in which not only the translator's name is at the top of the file, it's also in Help->About. I am very proud of having gotten translations. But then, DesireData's translations cover much more than 10 times the amount of text that Hans' project does. Perhaps it's a matter of scale and eventually more translators would demand that credit is given where credit is due.
-The last and more serious problem is that I can't test my gr.po file. Everything needs to be done with sudo to run and be installed properly
From the experience of my own project, I can say it's a lot nicer to be able to test things without having to do "make install".
To skip the sudo, you could use ./configure's --prefix option combined with a custom PATH (if you need one).
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec
On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 8:57 PM, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.cawrote:
On Fri, 21 Aug 2009, George Ker wrote:
I recommend for terms like: Object, Atom Box, Symbol, Bang, Slider, Patch
etc that no Greek translation should be done. Yes, of course I know what an "Object" means , and "Atom Box" could easily be translated, but wouldn't it be a drawback for users?
When I originally got 17 translations of Pd some years ago, what I received mostly translated "Slider" into their own language (a majority of the 16 non-English language files), instead of keeping it as-is. It depends on which word. Toggle was less often translated, and Bang was almost always kept as-is.
I think it's mostly better to translate the words than not, even though a fair amount of the population sticks with English just so that the computer vocabulary is in English. There is plenty of room for localisations that would use the English words for computer vocabulary, but somehow, it seems no-one ever bothers making any.
I live in a society where the opposition between the two manners of speaking is intense. Basically, we're so self-conscious about how much English we use in talking about computer things, that we can't possibly write a book with those words: all those words have to be translated to French. AFAIK, other places in the world are becoming more sensitive to that. I just happened to live in a place where it mattered more and it mattered earlier.
Even for me, the translator of the app would be confusing if all tutorials
/ help patches/ lists were using them... and then I had to face with terms: Object, Slider, Patch, DSP etc translated in Greek language in my installed App! I asked a friend of mine and he wouldn't use the translated app either! I find it like translating the MIDI acronyms. Too ugly and scary...
Where's the ugliness coming from? a shame insidiously infused into your people by the American Empire? You didn't question the beauty of the English words when you learned them, did you? I didn't either. I talk like that because it's a problem that I'm all too familiar with. It took me a long time to figure out the "ugliness" factor... and factor it out... to the extent that we can.
Besides, much of my computer is running in English, because I've ran it in English for way too long, out of habit, just like you; yet if I set up Linux in some (French-language) institution, I install it in French without asking anyone's advice. It's just normal. I may switch my own computer to French someday, and I already switched the default language of webpages to be French (but it only works on multilanguage pages that support it and detect it).
;o) yes first of all "ordinateur"... it's great how French are keeping their language alive and independent, However I did "bother" translate all terms (except the infamous Bang...) to Hungarian but then I thought it's just no go because most of Pd will still be English and element names will forever remain english as well as most of the help files, tutorials, abstractions etc... So what i did was that i have discarded my Hungarian translations and left the English ones for these. It's like, if a box is labeled "Emergency Survival Kit" the instructions should not tell people to look for the box called "Vészhelyzeti Túlélő Csomag" as they might never find it 8-) It has nothing to do with the American Empire! ;o)
I don't mind about the licence but wouldn't it be right for me to impress
girls in my college more easily after my work in translation of the PD app????
Contrast this with the DesireData translations in which not only the
translator's name is at the top of the file, it's also in Help->About. I am very proud of having gotten translations. But then, DesireData's translations cover much more than 10 times the amount of text that Hans' project does. Perhaps it's a matter of scale and eventually more translators would demand that credit is given where credit is due.
F*k credits and George i rather give you some advice for picking up college girls (it's easy!) ;o) Anyway Gtranslator works fine and you can set yourself up in Edit/Preferences.
-The last and more serious problem is that I can't test my gr.po
file. Everything needs to be done with sudo to run and be installed properly
From the experience of my own project, I can say it's a lot nicer to be able to test things without having to do "make install".
To skip the sudo, you could use ./configure's --prefix option combined with a custom PATH (if you need one).
Huh, and I did not test. I just wouldn't break my nice working .deb installation now.
On Fri, 21 Aug 2009, András Murányi wrote:
;o) yes first of all "ordinateur"... it's great how French are keeping their language alive and independent,
It depends: there are essentially two large mother-language French areas in the world, the European one, and the North-American one, and one big linguistic clash between the two, is how they accept English words into French. They don't agree at all on what to allow from English. The Académie is permissive about English in a society that is permissive about English, and the Office (www.olf.gouv.qc.ca) tends to repress English and coin new words, in a society that knows itself to be too permissive about English.
IIRC, The Office got «stop» signs to be changed to «arrêt stop» signs and eventually to plain «arrêt» signs, even though all French dictionaries list noun «stop» and verb «stopper», and even though everybody concerned by the signs know the word «stop» already. However, European French words «sponsor» «sponsoriser» «label» «labélisation» are non-existent in North-American French, where they won't replace the thoroughly-established «commanditaire» «commanditer» «étiquette» «étiquetage».
all terms (except the infamous Bang...) to Hungarian but then I thought it's just no go because most of Pd will still be English and element names will forever remain english as well as most of the help files, tutorials, abstractions etc... So what i did was that i have discarded my Hungarian translations and left the English ones for these.
That's what is called a Catch-22. If you don't take a good breath and dive, you won't get to the other side.
It's like, if a box is labeled "Emergency Survival Kit" the instructions should not tell people to look for the box called "Vészhelyzeti Túlélÿÿ Csomag" as they might never find it 8-) It has nothing to do with the American Empire! ;o)
No, it has to do with both the Catch-22 and the American Empire.
It's a deadlock you won't get out of until you handle both halves of the problem at the same time. You can't run your patch either, if you rename a receive-symbol but don't rename the corresponding send-symbol at once ;) it's a fact of life.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec
2009/8/21 Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca
It's like, if a box is labeled "Emergency Survival Kit" the instructions
should not tell people to look for the box called "Vészhelyzeti Túlélÿÿ Csomag" as they might never find it 8-) It has nothing to do with the American Empire! ;o)
No, it has to do with both the Catch-22 and the American Empire.
It's a deadlock you won't get out of until you handle both halves of the problem at the same time. You can't run your patch either, if you rename a receive-symbol but don't rename the corresponding send-symbol at once ;) it's a fact of life.
I think i got you, yet it's still not a catch-22 nor a deadlock for me but a choice that had to be made at the moment and which can openly changed anytime in the future. Now, i'm a guy who never liked "hungarianized" development environments. For that one, i'd rather commit ritual suicide than using hungarian function names in Excel ;o)
On Aug 21, 2009, at 3:28 PM, András Murányi wrote:
On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 8:57 PM, Mathieu Bouchard
matju@artengine.ca wrote: On Fri, 21 Aug 2009, George Ker wrote:I recommend for terms like: Object, Atom Box, Symbol, Bang, Slider,
Patch etc that no Greek translation should be done. Yes, of course I
know what an "Object" means , and "Atom Box" could easily be
translated, but wouldn't it be a drawback for users?When I originally got 17 translations of Pd some years ago, what I
received mostly translated "Slider" into their own language (a
majority of the 16 non-English language files), instead of keeping
it as-is. It depends on which word. Toggle was less often
translated, and Bang was almost always kept as-is.I think it's mostly better to translate the words than not, even
though a fair amount of the population sticks with English just so
that the computer vocabulary is in English. There is plenty of room
for localisations that would use the English words for computer
vocabulary, but somehow, it seems no-one ever bothers making any.I live in a society where the opposition between the two manners of
speaking is intense. Basically, we're so self-conscious about how
much English we use in talking about computer things, that we can't
possibly write a book with those words: all those words have to be
translated to French. AFAIK, other places in the world are becoming
more sensitive to that. I just happened to live in a place where it
mattered more and it mattered earlier.Even for me, the translator of the app would be confusing if all
tutorials / help patches/ lists were using them... and then I had to
face with terms: Object, Slider, Patch, DSP etc translated in Greek
language in my installed App! I asked a friend of mine and he
wouldn't use the translated app either! I find it like translating
the MIDI acronyms. Too ugly and scary...Where's the ugliness coming from? a shame insidiously infused into
your people by the American Empire? You didn't question the beauty
of the English words when you learned them, did you? I didn't
either. I talk like that because it's a problem that I'm all too
familiar with. It took me a long time to figure out the "ugliness"
factor... and factor it out... to the extent that we can.Besides, much of my computer is running in English, because I've ran
it in English for way too long, out of habit, just like you; yet if
I set up Linux in some (French-language) institution, I install it
in French without asking anyone's advice. It's just normal. I may
switch my own computer to French someday, and I already switched the
default language of webpages to be French (but it only works on
multilanguage pages that support it and detect it).;o) yes first of all "ordinateur"... it's great how French are
keeping their language alive and independent, However I did "bother" translate all terms (except the infamous
Bang...) to Hungarian but then I thought it's just no go because
most of Pd will still be English and element names will forever
remain english as well as most of the help files, tutorials,
abstractions etc... So what i did was that i have discarded my Hungarian translations
and left the English ones for these. It's like, if a box is labeled "Emergency Survival Kit" the
instructions should not tell people to look for the box called
"Vészhelyzeti Túlélő Csomag" as they might never find it 8-) It has nothing to do with the American Empire! ;o)I don't mind about the licence but wouldn't it be right for me to
impress girls in my college more easily after my work in translation
of the PD app????Contrast this with the DesireData translations in which not only the
translator's name is at the top of the file, it's also in Help-About. I am very proud of having gotten translations. But then,
DesireData's translations cover much more than 10 times the amount
of text that Hans' project does. Perhaps it's a matter of scale and
eventually more translators would demand that credit is given where
credit is due.F*k credits and George i rather give you some advice for picking up
college girls (it's easy!) ;o) Anyway Gtranslator works fine and you can set yourself up in Edit/ Preferences.-The last and more serious problem is that I can't test mygr.po file. Everything needs to be done with sudo to run and be
installed properlyFrom the experience of my own project, I can say it's a lot nicer to
be able to test things without having to do "make install".To skip the sudo, you could use ./configure's --prefix option
combined with a custom PATH (if you need one).Huh, and I did not test. I just wouldn't break my nice working .deb
installation now.
You don't need to touch your working install to test, just compile and
run it in place. You currently do need to install libtool though, but
that's easy on Debian.
.hc
All information should be free. - the hacker ethic
Hi,
Attached is a first try of a Swedish translation, mostly for getting the å's, ä's and ö's into the picture. It seems like some of the phrases isn't updated in the ui -- don't know if it's due to the current state of the devel branch or my incompetence. Also, some label widths seem to be hardcoded, so some label texts are cropped.
When doing the translation, it also came to my mind that it could be good to rewrite also the english descriptions. Especially the ui object properties are quite hard to read (and understand), and could be made easier with just some standard on punctuation and capitalization. But I haven't been very involved in the discussion, so I don't know if i'm just repeating what's already been discussed...
Johannes
On Aug 22, 2009, at 6:03 AM, Johannes Burström wrote:
Hi,
Attached is a first try of a Swedish translation, mostly for getting the å's, ä's and ö's into the picture. It seems like some of the phrases isn't updated in the ui -- don't know if it's due to the current state of the devel branch or my incompetence. Also, some label widths seem to be hardcoded, so some label texts are cropped.
Yeah, that's why I am starting this translation process now, rather
than waiting until the full text is in the template.pot. Please
report these issues so I can fix them. Its not hard to make the panel
adjust width, though oftentimes the panels end up getting quite wide
in some languages.
When doing the translation, it also came to my mind that it could be good to rewrite also the english descriptions. Especially the ui object properties are quite hard to read (and understand), and could be made easier with just some standard on punctuation and capitalization. But I haven't been very involved in the discussion, so I don't know if i'm just repeating what's already been discussed...
I've tried to standardize the punctuation but haven't messed with the
language too much because its been around so long. I think you are
talking about the iemguis (hslider, vslider, etc.) or do you also mean
the gatoms (number box , symbol box) and arrays.
As for the translations, the translators are free to use whatever
language they want, since Pd has only really been in English before,
there aren't entrenched preferences.
.hc
The arc of history bends towards justice. - Dr. Martin Luther
King, Jr.
2009/8/22 Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at:
On Aug 22, 2009, at 6:03 AM, Johannes Burström wrote:
current state of the devel branch or my incompetence. Also, some label widths seem to be hardcoded, so some label texts are cropped.
Yeah, that's why I am starting this translation process now, rather than waiting until the full text is in the template.pot. Please report these issues so I can fix them. Its not hard to make the panel adjust width, though oftentimes the panels end up getting quite wide in some languages.
...
I've tried to standardize the punctuation but haven't messed with the language too much because its been around so long. I think you are talking about the iemguis (hslider, vslider, etc.) or do you also mean the gatoms (number box , symbol box) and arrays.
Mainly talking about the iemguis, yes. I could imagine taking away the "-----dimensions(pix)..." headings and having boxes instead.
When it comes to labels getting cropped, i've so far only seen it happen to the "Messages" labels in the iemguis, and now I see it happen to the english translation as well. Maybe it would be and idea to lose the "symbol" part of eg "Send symbol" and have a heading like "Message symbols", besides of course to make them take up the whole width.
And here I had a long rant about having checkboxes instead of buttons for Init/no init until I viewed source and saw that it was already planned...
Johannes
On Tue, 25 Aug 2009, Johannes Burström wrote:
And here I had a long rant about having checkboxes instead of buttons for Init/no init until I viewed source and saw that it was already planned...
Do you think that just because there's a line in the source that says "FIXME" or "TODO", someone would do it, sooner or later? I think not.
Thus a rant is a vote for a feature or fix.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
On Aug 25, 2009, at 4:23 AM, Johannes Burström wrote:
2009/8/22 Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at:
On Aug 22, 2009, at 6:03 AM, Johannes Burström wrote:
current state of the devel branch or my incompetence. Also, some
label widths seem to be hardcoded, so some label texts are cropped.Yeah, that's why I am starting this translation process now, rather
than waiting until the full text is in the template.pot. Please report
these issues so I can fix them. Its not hard to make the panel adjust
width, though oftentimes the panels end up getting quite wide in some
languages....
I've tried to standardize the punctuation but haven't messed with the language too much because its been around so long. I think you are
talking about the iemguis (hslider, vslider, etc.) or do you also mean the
gatoms (number box , symbol box) and arrays.Mainly talking about the iemguis, yes. I could imagine taking away the "-----dimensions(pix)..." headings and having boxes instead.
Unfortuntely, that's on the C side. The iemguis are hard to modify,
but its definitely possible. One thing that might be easy is to
localize those strange iemgui headers.
When it comes to labels getting cropped, i've so far only seen it happen to the "Messages" labels in the iemguis, and now I see it happen to the english translation as well. Maybe it would be and idea to lose the "symbol" part of eg "Send symbol" and have a heading like "Message symbols", besides of course to make them take up the whole width.
That's a good idea. The hard part is which language to use. How
about this:
Bind symbols Send: Receive:
or maybe this:
Bind to symbols for Send: Receive:
And here I had a long rant about having checkboxes instead of buttons for Init/no init until I viewed source and saw that it was already planned...
Hmm, I wouldn't say planned as much as noted. That wouldn't be hard
to fix, and it would be all Tcl. The more contributions there are,
the better it gets. :)
.hc
There is no way to peace, peace is the way. -A.J. Muste
Hello
I´m not sure if this is off topic, but as you all talk about the gui I would like to post a wish.
would it be possible to get at least the transparent numberbox back? This was really practical to compare results, if you lay one above the other.
thanks in advance. der.brandt
On Aug 26, 2009, at 3:39 AM, brandt@subnet.at wrote:
Hello
I´m not sure if this is off topic, but as you all talk about
the gui I would like to post a wish.would it be possible to get at least the transparent numberbox back?
This was really practical to compare results, if you lay one above the
other.thanks in advance. der.brandt
That's a Pd-extended thing. For now, this is Pd-vanilla, so object
boxes will be transparent unless Miller changes that. As for Pd-
extended, that's one of the downsides of the look of Pd-extended. I
think that tradeoff is worth it for what you get in exchange. That
said, I am not opposed to someone figuring out a better way that
solves both problems.
.hc
News is what people want to keep hidden and everything else is
publicity. - Bill Moyers
On Wed, 26 Aug 2009, brandt@subnet.at wrote:
I'm not sure if this is off topic, but as you all talk about the gui I would like to post a wish. would it be possible to get at least the transparent numberbox back? This was really practical to compare results, if you lay one above the other.
Can you actually read those characters?...
I'd have thought that someone would instead make an abstraction that would make it more obvious to the eye, e.g. show both numberboxes at once separately (e.g. side to side), and also show a square that goes red only when there's a difference between the two numbers.
It could even do it with a threshold, e.g. go red only when the difference is bigger than 0.5, or only when it's bigger than 1% of the two values, etc. It's a lot more versatile than relying on overprinting, imho.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
On Aug 21, 2009, at 2:57 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Fri, 21 Aug 2009, George Ker wrote:
I recommend for terms like: Object, Atom Box, Symbol, Bang, Slider,
Patch etc that no Greek translation should be done. Yes, of course
I know what an "Object" means , and "Atom Box" could easily be
translated, but wouldn't it be a drawback for users?When I originally got 17 translations of Pd some years ago, what I
received mostly translated "Slider" into their own language (a
majority of the 16 non-English language files), instead of keeping
it as-is. It depends on which word. Toggle was less often
translated, and Bang was almost always kept as-is.I think it's mostly better to translate the words than not, even
though a fair amount of the population sticks with English just so
that the computer vocabulary is in English. There is plenty of room
for localisations that would use the English words for computer
vocabulary, but somehow, it seems no-one ever bothers making any.I live in a society where the opposition between the two manners of
speaking is intense. Basically, we're so self-conscious about how
much English we use in talking about computer things, that we can't
possibly write a book with those words: all those words have to be
translated to French. AFAIK, other places in the world are becoming
more sensitive to that. I just happened to live in a place where it
mattered more and it mattered earlier.Even for me, the translator of the app would be confusing if all
tutorials / help patches/ lists were using them... and then I had
to face with terms: Object, Slider, Patch, DSP etc translated in
Greek language in my installed App! I asked a friend of mine and he
wouldn't use the translated app either! I find it like translating
the MIDI acronyms. Too ugly and scary...Where's the ugliness coming from? a shame insidiously infused into
your people by the American Empire? You didn't question the beauty
of the English words when you learned them, did you? I didn't
either. I talk like that because it's a problem that I'm all too
familiar with. It took me a long time to figure out the "ugliness"
factor... and factor it out... to the extent that we can.Besides, much of my computer is running in English, because I've ran
it in English for way too long, out of habit, just like you; yet if
I set up Linux in some (French-language) institution, I install it
in French without asking anyone's advice. It's just normal. I may
switch my own computer to French someday, and I already switched the
default language of webpages to be French (but it only works on
multilanguage pages that support it and detect it).I don't mind about the licence but wouldn't it be right for me to
impress girls in my college more easily after my work in
translation of the PD app????Contrast this with the DesireData translations in which not only the
translator's name is at the top of the file, it's also in Help-About. I am very proud of having gotten translations. But then,
DesireData's translations cover much more than 10 times the amount
of text that Hans' project does. Perhaps it's a matter of scale and
eventually more translators would demand that credit is given where
credit is due.
The standard .po header will make the job of tracking attributions
easy, I think the idea of including the translators in the About page
is a good one. The only roadblock to that is someone creating the
About page.
.hc
-The last and more serious problem is that I can't test my gr.po
file. Everything needs to be done with sudo to run and be installed
properlyFrom the experience of my own project, I can say it's a lot nicer to
be able to test things without having to do "make install".To skip the sudo, you could use ./configure's --prefix option
combined with a custom PATH (if you need one)._ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal,
Québec_______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my
telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out
how to use my telephone." --Bjarne Stroustrup
-The last and more serious problem is that I can'ttest my gr.po file. Everything needs to be done with sudo to run and be installed properly and when I reach the commands from your guide: $ ./autogen.sh && .configure && make
there are some errors in the terminal: rm: src/config*: No such file or directory rm: src/makefile*: No such file or directory ./autogen.sh: line 13: libtoolize: command not found
I think no problems were in the gettext installation. I' m on an intel Macbook Pro 2008, with MacOSX Leopard.
You need to install GNU libtool. Using Fink is the way that the Mac OS X builds of Pd use. http://finkproject.org. Or really, I should make a build system that doesn't need libtool... coming soon.
.hc
Thank you for your answers . I still have problems with libtool installed. I installed libtool through FinkCommander , as you suggested but in terminal there are still errors trying the commands:
$ ./autogen.sh && .configure && make
rm: src/config*: No such file or directory
rm: src/makefile*: No such file or directory
libtoolize: configure.in' does not exist Trylibtoolize --help' for more information.
$
What's wrong? I am in the ~/0.41.4/ directory when trying these. Some files are missing??
Even for me, the translator of the app would be confusing if all tutorials
/ help patches/ lists were using them... and then I had to face with terms: Object, Slider, Patch, DSP etc translated in Greek language in my installed App! I asked a friend of mine and he wouldn't use the translated app either! I find it like translating the MIDI acronyms. Too ugly and scary...
Where's the ugliness coming from? a shame insidiously infused into your people by the American Empire? You didn't question the beauty of the English words when you learned them, did you? I didn't either. I talk like that because it's a problem that I'm all too familiar with. It took me a long time to figure out the "ugliness" factor... and factor it out... to the extent that we can.
Well , I don't find greek / french languages nor the translated terms in Pd ugly. I just find... the USE of these terms uggly and confusing. I would also find "ugly" , for Americans to use something like "Star-Laws" and french people "étoile-loi" for the Greek-originated word Astronomy. It's like an international commitment that some names and terms have to be unchanged. But, I found interesting the Catch-22 you did mention. I didn't know it :)
Thanks again for your time.
George Ker
http://www.friendfeed.com/georgeker http://www.facebook.com/george.ker
On Aug 22, 2009, at 1:49 PM, geo ker wrote:
-The last and more serious problem is that I can'ttest my gr.po file. Everything needs to be done with sudo to run and be installed properly and when I reach the commands from your guide: $ ./autogen.sh && .configure && make
there are some errors in the terminal: rm: src/config*: No such file or directory rm: src/makefile*: No such file or directory ./autogen.sh: line 13: libtoolize: command not found
I think no problems were in the gettext installation. I' m on an intel Macbook Pro 2008, with MacOSX Leopard.
You need to install GNU libtool. Using Fink is the way that the Mac
OS X builds of Pd use. http://finkproject.org. Or really, I should
make a build system that doesn't need libtool... coming soon..hc
Thank you for your answers . I still have problems with libtool installed. I installed libtool
through FinkCommander , as you suggested but in terminal there are
still errors trying the commands:$ ./autogen.sh && .configure && makerm: src/config*: No such file or directory rm: src/makefile*: No such file or directory libtoolize:
configure.in' does not exist Trylibtoolize --help' for more information. $What's wrong? I am in the ~/0.41.4/ directory when trying these.
Some files are missing??
Hmm, haven't seen that error before, perhaps a newer version of
libtool will help. On fink the package is called 'libtool2'
.hc
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
On Sat, 22 Aug 2009, geo ker wrote:
Well , I don't find greek / french languages nor the translated terms in Pd ugly. I just find... the USE of these terms uggly and confusing. I would also find "ugly" , for Americans to use something like "Star-Laws" and french people "étoile-loi" for the Greek-originated word Astronomy. It's like an international commitment that some names and terms have to be unchanged.
It's also a matter of how long it's been. Words like "astronomy" have been in many languages for many centuries. Some disciplines have standardised on pure Latin for all their naming and won't change anytime soon. Computer vocabulary is still young and still has the time to get translated. There's no international commitment for computer words to stay how they are. However, some words are bound to be more often translated than some others, and some languages are bound to have more custom translations than others. For example, the OQLF is handling one of the largest dictionaries in the world, for which Wikipédia claims it has 3 million words in it.
http://www.granddictionnaire.com/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_dictionnaire_terminologique http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OQLF
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
-
András Murányi -
brandt＠subnet.at -
geo ker -
George Ker
-
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
Johannes Burström -
Jonathan Wilkes -
João Pais -
Mathieu Bouchard