hey ho
hi roman
let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered through very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at all to the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a point.
thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic of sexism which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there. gender, we keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance.
for example this http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html
If I remember well Matju was also molested by this. to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a deeper degree in the conversation. It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough it was followed by a funny advertisementlike max msp thread)
I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to mention some practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self employed and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of technology in our work with sensors, diy, electronica, computer music, web programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to answer it!.
I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last problem was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that thread until the end ;)
since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so
serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously couldn't be established.
i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I wanted to propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile, argentina, ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high mountains)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicha
and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total discredit, is not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal and we face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas of the world. So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to this. and some feminist from the south are excellent, in case you would like some good internet radio
http://nueva.radionumerocritico.cl/news.php
I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any particular complaint against this list although I can remember some situations outside the list:
- once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an external, ah
yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well Yves can do that you don't have to do that.
-once a pd friend which I wanted to talk to said ah! you are the visual artist that works with Yves. that was ok but there is this prejudice that women doing pd do visuals. Ah no, I make noise.
-once a pd friend didn't include me in the logs of a pd irc chat meeting (!)
-once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals
but many other times I have also been -very encouraged by people that participate a lot in the list and in pd meetings and pd projects to keep on learning and feel more confident in my autonomy towards media.
it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but yes that would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and ask around why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces.
Alejandra
On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 19:38 +0200, pueblo@mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
yves, I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you describe
(maybe
you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :))
hi David and all, I don't know if you didn't follow some threads but here are some examples of greasy jokes:
yo, i am glad, that you bring some realworld cases up. i think, this could be a basis for a real discussion.
From: João Miguel Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com Date: Tue, October 9, 2007 1:29 pm
- do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a lightbulb? 2:
One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k. [I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least it's a humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last weeks]
i don't know, how obvious this was, but i am pretty sure, that in the first place it wasn't jmmmp's intention to make bad jokes, that insult feminists. i would rather say, that he, as probably some others, felt, that this discussion was going to nowhere and probably wanted to provocate a discussion by bringing up the most stupid macho joke (or whatever this should be called) he could think of. obviously he succeeded. i wouldn't count that as an example of chauvinism in the list, since it seems, that it was triggered by the topic 'sexism' in order to question the ongoing discussion.
accusing him of chauvinism would be too simple in that case, though i do not approve sending such sentences to a public mailing list, regardless of the intention.
I really didn't want to post another OT but to be blind about the facts is just a bit too much for me to keep silent.
i think, the whole community would agree, that whatever is troubling someone in a serious manner, it should be brought up here.
roman
Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de
Hi everybody,
Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I don't appreciate being called "girl" either, I'm in my mid-twenties also. And I agree with Darsh and Alejandra. The kind of terms and attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make me not want to join in any discussions. It seems designed to keep me out. It's just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be a real "jock" programmer, and everything had to be so macho all the time. I guess it's just "male bonding" but it's excluding others that want to learn. I am just sick of this attitude from some guys that women can't be real composers, musicians, programmers, whatever. I mean.. It's 2007!!! Not the stone age.
Anyway, thanks everybody.
-Alicia
pueblo@mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
hey ho
hi roman
let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered through very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at all to the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a point.
thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic of sexism which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there. gender, we keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance.
for example this http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html
If I remember well Matju was also molested by this. to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a deeper degree in the conversation. It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough it was followed by a funny advertisementlike max msp thread)
I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to mention some practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self employed and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of technology in our work with sensors, diy, electronica, computer music, web programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to answer it!.
I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last problem was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that thread until the end ;)
since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so
serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously couldn't be established.
i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I wanted to propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile, argentina, ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high mountains)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicha
and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total discredit, is not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal and we face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas of the world. So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to this. and some feminist from the south are excellent, in case you would like some good internet radio
http://nueva.radionumerocritico.cl/news.php
I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any particular complaint against this list although I can remember some situations outside the list:
- once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an external, ah
yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well Yves can do that you don't have to do that.
-once a pd friend which I wanted to talk to said ah! you are the visual artist that works with Yves. that was ok but there is this prejudice that women doing pd do visuals. Ah no, I make noise.
-once a pd friend didn't include me in the logs of a pd irc chat meeting (!)
-once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals
but many other times I have also been -very encouraged by people that participate a lot in the list and in pd meetings and pd projects to keep on learning and feel more confident in my autonomy towards media.
it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but yes that would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and ask around why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces.
Alejandra
On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 19:38 +0200, pueblo@mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
yves, I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you describe
(maybe
you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :))
hi David and all, I don't know if you didn't follow some threads but here are some examples of greasy jokes:
yo, i am glad, that you bring some realworld cases up. i think, this could be a basis for a real discussion.
From: João Miguel Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com Date: Tue, October 9, 2007 1:29 pm
- do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a lightbulb? 2:
One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k. [I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least it's a humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last weeks]
i don't know, how obvious this was, but i am pretty sure, that in the first place it wasn't jmmmp's intention to make bad jokes, that insult feminists. i would rather say, that he, as probably some others, felt, that this discussion was going to nowhere and probably wanted to provocate a discussion by bringing up the most stupid macho joke (or whatever this should be called) he could think of. obviously he succeeded. i wouldn't count that as an example of chauvinism in the list, since it seems, that it was triggered by the topic 'sexism' in order to question the ongoing discussion.
accusing him of chauvinism would be too simple in that case, though i do not approve sending such sentences to a public mailing list, regardless of the intention.
I really didn't want to post another OT but to be blind about the facts is just a bit too much for me to keep silent.
i think, the whole community would agree, that whatever is troubling someone in a serious manner, it should be brought up here.
roman
Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
You absolutely have a valid opinion, its' good to hear it on this
list. Now it seems that this thread is actually getting somewhere.
I had decided to ignore it, so I didn't realize the depths it had
fallen to.
I also have a strong distaste for the "gang bang" talk and macho
programming. It seems that computer music is one of the last bastions
of male dominance, I mean even most Linux events are at least 20%
female, not so in the computer music world. As someone who was
raised by a strong feminist, I have always wondered what I could do
to change that. So far I haven't found an answer, but I am always
open to suggestions.
It does seem that the macho geek culture is a common complaint. A
friend of mine started college in the Mechanical Engineering
department since she'd always wanted to make things. She was one of
few women in the department, and was constantly challenged and mocked
because she was a woman. Needless to say, she changed departments,
but still wishes she was a mechanical engineer. Sadly, I think that
such things happen with Pd a lot as well.
.hc
On Oct 17, 2007, at 3:34 AM, Alicia Byer wrote:
Hi everybody,
Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I don't appreciate being called "girl" either, I'm in my mid-twenties also. And I agree with Darsh and Alejandra. The kind of terms and attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make
me not want to join in any discussions. It seems designed to keep me out.
It's just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be a
real "jock" programmer, and everything had to be so macho all the time. I guess it's just "male bonding" but it's excluding others that want to learn. I am just sick of this attitude from some guys that women can't be real composers, musicians, programmers, whatever. I mean.. It's 2007!!! Not the stone age.Anyway, thanks everybody.
-Alicia
pueblo@mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
hey ho
hi roman
let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread
in a dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered
through very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at
all to the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming
to a point.thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic
of sexism which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there.
gender, we keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance.for example this http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html
If I remember well Matju was also molested by this. to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a deeper degree in the conversation. It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough it was
followed by a funny advertisementlike max msp thread)I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to
mention some practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self
employed and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of
technology in our work with sensors, diy, electronica, computer music, web programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to
answer it!.I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last
problem was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that
thread until the end ;)since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so
serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously couldn't be established.
i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I
wanted to propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile, argentina, ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high mountains)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicha
and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total
discredit, is not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal
and we face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas
of the world. So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to this. and some feminist from the south are excellent, in case you would
like some good internet radiohttp://nueva.radionumerocritico.cl/news.php
I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any
particular complaint against this list although I can remember some situations outside the list:
- once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an
external, ah yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well
Yves can do that you don't have to do that.-once a pd friend which I wanted to talk to said ah! you are the
visual artist that works with Yves. that was ok but there is this
prejudice that women doing pd do visuals. Ah no, I make noise.-once a pd friend didn't include me in the logs of a pd irc chat
meeting (!)-once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do
sound because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of
visualsbut many other times I have also been -very encouraged by people that participate a lot in the list and in pd meetings and pd projects
to keep on learning and feel more confident in my autonomy towards media.it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but yes
that would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and
ask around why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces.Alejandra
On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 19:38 +0200, pueblo@mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
yves, I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you describe
(maybe
you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :))
hi David and all, I don't know if you didn't follow some threads but here are some examples of greasy jokes:
yo, i am glad, that you bring some realworld cases up. i think, this could be a basis for a real discussion.
From: João Miguel Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com Date: Tue, October 9, 2007 1:29 pm
- do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a
lightbulb? 2: One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k. [I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least it's a humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last
weeks]i don't know, how obvious this was, but i am pretty sure, that in
the first place it wasn't jmmmp's intention to make bad jokes, that
insult feminists. i would rather say, that he, as probably some others,
felt, that this discussion was going to nowhere and probably wanted to provocate a discussion by bringing up the most stupid macho joke (or whatever this should be called) he could think of. obviously he succeeded. i wouldn't count that as an example of chauvinism in the list, since it seems, that it was triggered by the topic 'sexism' in order to question the ongoing discussion.accusing him of chauvinism would be too simple in that case,
though i do not approve sending such sentences to a public mailing list,
regardless of the intention.I really didn't want to post another OT but to be blind about
the facts is just a bit too much for me to keep silent.i think, the whole community would agree, that whatever is troubling someone in a serious manner, it should be brought up here.
roman
Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen
Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
kill your television
most ISMs turn into cottage industries IMHO, feminism is definitely among them for the record my C++ teacher was a woman, and in Supercollider class we were pretty much 50/50 men and women, sharing ideas and helping each other with code. people make mistakes and students can be cruel, but i no longer hop on board with the men are sex obsessed macho turds, aren't they? stance. For example: i used to do two benefits a year for the local NOW chapter, playing music etc.. Until one year their slogan was "Don;t be a DICK" meaning do not abuse women etc.. BUt the members of the group felt they needed to inflict this slogan via pins and buttons and whatnot on the MEN present at the function.
moral: choose your audiences and soapbox carefully
and try not to post the same reply 3 time if possible!
lol
---- Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@eds.org wrote:
You absolutely have a valid opinion, its' good to hear it on this
list. Now it seems that this thread is actually getting somewhere.
I had decided to ignore it, so I didn't realize the depths it had
fallen to.I also have a strong distaste for the "gang bang" talk and macho
programming. It seems that computer music is one of the last bastions
of male dominance, I mean even most Linux events are at least 20%
female, not so in the computer music world. As someone who was
raised by a strong feminist, I have always wondered what I could do
to change that. So far I haven't found an answer, but I am always
open to suggestions.It does seem that the macho geek culture is a common complaint. A
friend of mine started college in the Mechanical Engineering
department since she'd always wanted to make things. She was one of
few women in the department, and was constantly challenged and mocked
because she was a woman. Needless to say, she changed departments,
but still wishes she was a mechanical engineer. Sadly, I think that
such things happen with Pd a lot as well..hc
On Oct 17, 2007, at 3:34 AM, Alicia Byer wrote:
Hi everybody,
Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I don't appreciate being called "girl" either, I'm in my mid-twenties also. And I agree with Darsh and Alejandra. The kind of terms and attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make
me not want to join in any discussions. It seems designed to keep me out.
It's just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be a
real "jock" programmer, and everything had to be so macho all the time. I guess it's just "male bonding" but it's excluding others that want to learn. I am just sick of this attitude from some guys that women can't be real composers, musicians, programmers, whatever. I mean.. It's 2007!!! Not the stone age.Anyway, thanks everybody.
-Alicia
pueblo@mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
hey ho
hi roman
let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread
in a dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered
through very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at
all to the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming
to a point.thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic
of sexism which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there.
gender, we keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance.for example this http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html
If I remember well Matju was also molested by this. to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a deeper degree in the conversation. It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough it was
followed by a funny advertisementlike max msp thread)I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to
mention some practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self
employed and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of
technology in our work with sensors, diy, electronica, computer music, web programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to
answer it!.I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last
problem was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that
thread until the end ;)since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so
serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously couldn't be established.
i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I
wanted to propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile, argentina, ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high mountains)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicha
and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total
discredit, is not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal
and we face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas
of the world. So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to this. and some feminist from the south are excellent, in case you would
like some good internet radiohttp://nueva.radionumerocritico.cl/news.php
I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any
particular complaint against this list although I can remember some situations outside the list:
- once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an
external, ah yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well
Yves can do that you don't have to do that.-once a pd friend which I wanted to talk to said ah! you are the
visual artist that works with Yves. that was ok but there is this
prejudice that women doing pd do visuals. Ah no, I make noise.-once a pd friend didn't include me in the logs of a pd irc chat
meeting (!)-once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do
sound because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of
visualsbut many other times I have also been -very encouraged by people that participate a lot in the list and in pd meetings and pd projects
to keep on learning and feel more confident in my autonomy towards media.it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but yes
that would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and
ask around why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces.Alejandra
On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 19:38 +0200, pueblo@mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
yves, I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you describe
(maybe
you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :))
hi David and all, I don't know if you didn't follow some threads but here are some examples of greasy jokes:
yo, i am glad, that you bring some realworld cases up. i think, this could be a basis for a real discussion.
From: João Miguel Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com Date: Tue, October 9, 2007 1:29 pm
- do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a
lightbulb? 2: One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k. [I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least it's a humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last
weeks]i don't know, how obvious this was, but i am pretty sure, that in
the first place it wasn't jmmmp's intention to make bad jokes, that
insult feminists. i would rather say, that he, as probably some others,
felt, that this discussion was going to nowhere and probably wanted to provocate a discussion by bringing up the most stupid macho joke (or whatever this should be called) he could think of. obviously he succeeded. i wouldn't count that as an example of chauvinism in the list, since it seems, that it was triggered by the topic 'sexism' in order to question the ongoing discussion.accusing him of chauvinism would be too simple in that case,
though i do not approve sending such sentences to a public mailing list,
regardless of the intention.I really didn't want to post another OT but to be blind about
the facts is just a bit too much for me to keep silent.i think, the whole community would agree, that whatever is troubling someone in a serious manner, it should be brought up here.
roman
Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen
Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
kill your television
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- Patrick Pagano Sound and Light Technologist School of Theatre and Dance University of Florida
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
It seems that computer music is one of the last bastions of male dominance, I mean even most Linux events are at least 20% female, not so in the computer music world.
It must be quite dependent on the actual school, but I know that not far from here, there was a prof who advised a music composition student to perform last, because he expected the guys to overdo their own performances, in fear of getting a lower score than the "girl" or of perhaps of sounding mild in comparison. That's in a less-than-10%-female context.
It does seem that the macho geek culture is a common complaint. A friend of mine started college in the Mechanical Engineering department since she'd always wanted to make things.
Maybe it's just that I'm not so interested in that profession, but as much as I've drank while in uni, I would never have enjoyed participating in a drinking contest, nor getting pressured into participating. There is also one guy who has dropped out after being harassed during all of his first semester for skipping the initiation ritual. The macho crap doesn't affect only women.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal QC Canada
hello again
On Wed, 2007-10-17 at 08:23 +0200, pueblo@mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered through very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at all to the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a point.
thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic of sexism which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there. gender, we keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance.
for example this http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html
If I remember well Matju was also molested by this. to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a deeper degree in the conversation.
yo, i see. me as well would feel more comfortable without having this kind of posts in the list. however - and by saying that i don't want to justify it - this probably is rather an expression of uneasiness and anxiety to be accused of sexism too carelessly as a man (not that this happened on the list, but in general, this is surely an issue as well).
It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough it was followed by a funny advertisementlike max msp thread)
I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to mention some practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self employed and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of technology in our work with sensors, diy, electronica, computer music, web programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to answer it!.
I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last problem was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that thread until the end ;)
since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so
serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously couldn't be established.
i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I wanted to propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile, argentina, ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high mountains)
what should we say instead of 'cheers'?
and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total discredit, is not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal and we face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas of the world.
this is true and very sad. however i don't see the point in discussing such big world problems in pd-list.
So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to this. and some feminist from the south are excellent, in case you would like some good internet radio
thanks for the link, though i probably need to learn spanish first ;-) i tried the streams ( http://stream.r23.cc:2323/ranumcri.mp3 ), but i get:
Server returned 404:File Not Found
I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any particular complaint against this list although I can remember some situations outside the list:
- once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an external, ah
yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well Yves can do that you don't have to do that.
-once a pd friend which I wanted to talk to said ah! you are the visual artist that works with Yves. that was ok but there is this prejudice that women doing pd do visuals. Ah no, I make noise.
-once a pd friend didn't include me in the logs of a pd irc chat meeting (!)
-once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals
what i find really alarming about these examples is the fact, that they do not only show a form of sexism, that is based on bad using of words, but, what i think is much more serious, illustrate, how deep certain concepts of gender are squatted in some brains. i don't know what do say....
but many other times I have also been -very encouraged by people that participate a lot in the list and in pd meetings and pd projects to keep on learning and feel more confident in my autonomy towards media.
it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but yes that would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and ask around why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces.
agreed!
roman
Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de
I see you found the thread yourself, while I was running around trying to find work instead of staying updated.
On 10/17/07, pueblo@mail.ljudmila.org pueblo@mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total discredit, is not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal and we face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas of the world. So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to this.
I don't mind femin-, but any -ism tastes nasty to me. "femin-ism" is, lexicographically or whatever, one step from "sex-ism". Equality is equality, and doesn't need another name. If a man is treated badly for his gender, does he have less right to justice because he is a member of a group less often treated badly? Maybe not in theory, but in many people's actions, yes. I believe in equal rights, but I don't believe that is accomplished by focusing on one group of people.
Oddly- not speaking of institutions- men are far more often victims of violent crime than women, at least in my country (worldwide anyone know?). "They" say a lot that women are most often victimized by people they know, but leave out that this is still less often than men are victimized. Occupational fatality, drug addiction, and suicide are traditionally higher among men, and men have shorter lives worldwide as well. It is very well-known that, in university, social studies subjects are filled largely with women and technological and scientific subjects by men, and that the latter are more well-paid positions. BUT could this have something to do with the fact that men are traditionally judged by women according to their income? I would far rather study art and history than mathematics (in fact I did, I have a music degree and make $0 from it, and often feel ignored on lists like this for my lack of computer science knowledge).
It's true I know almost nothing about society in any place but North America and Europe, but I'm really not trying to belittle the ill treatment of women; I know forced prostitution, for example, still occurs in many places, probably more often with women/girls. But I don't believe humans are anything but animals, and I think, all things considered, they have done pretty well over the last few hundred years.
I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any particular
complaint against this list although I can remember some situations outside the list:
- once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an external, ah
yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well Yves can do that you don't have to do that.
I think many people would say the exact same thing to me.
it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but yes that would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and ask around why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces.
I wasn't aware that women didn't participate. My few exchanges with Patrice convinced me she knows far more than I about computers and especially Pd, but for a year or two I had no idea what her sex was. As they say in regard to the internet, I still don't REALLY know.
BTW, I did remove a number of your comments in replying; I don't mean to erase them, I just had no response.
-Chuckk
Hello, just a parenthesis to make things clear, :),
Chuckk Hubbard a écrit :
I wasn't aware that women didn't participate. My few exchanges with Patrice convinced me she knows far more than I about computers and especially Pd, but for a year or two I had no idea what her sex was. As they say in regard to the internet, I still don't REALLY know.
BTW, I did remove a number of your comments in replying; I don't mean to erase them, I just had no response.
-Chuckk
I've figured out some years ago that in united states 'Patrice' is a name given to women, when I've heard about the existence of Patrice Zappa, the sister of Frank Zappa. Also this name come from the roman 'pater' which mean 'father', or in french 'Patricien'. It's a communauty of people living during ancient Rome. I've no idea why my united statesian homologous (sorry didn't find a better translation for 'homologue') is a woman.
On 10/18/07, Patrice Colet pat@mamalala.org wrote:
Hello, just a parenthesis to make things clear, :),
Chuckk Hubbard a écrit :
I wasn't aware that women didn't participate. My few exchanges with Patrice convinced me she knows far more than I about computers and especially Pd, but for a year or two I had no idea what her sex was. As they say in regard to the internet, I still don't REALLY know.
BTW, I did remove a number of your comments in replying; I don't mean to erase them, I just had no response.
-Chuckk
I've figured out some years ago that in united states 'Patrice' is a name given to women, when I've heard about the existence of Patrice Zappa, the sister of Frank Zappa. Also this name come from the roman 'pater' which mean 'father', or in french 'Patricien'. It's a communauty of people living during ancient Rome. I've no idea why my united statesian homologous (sorry didn't find a better translation for 'homologue') is a woman.
See, I never did inquire as to Patrice's gender... Sorry for the mistake! I wish Frank Zappa were alive and posting on this thread...
-Chuckk
Equality is equality, and doesn't need another name. If a man is treated badly for his gender, does he have less right to justice because he is a member of a group less often treated badly? Maybe not in theory, but in many people's actions, yes. I believe in equal rights, but I don't believe that is accomplished by focusing on one group of people.
Chuckk, while I can sympathize with this, I would also suggest that the goal of many feminists is not equality in the limited sense of "we get the same things as men." I hope that you don't take this as any kind of attack, because certainly this is not a reflection on you, but I am almost a little bored by that idea. After a certain point, doesn't the question become - how long will we keep chasing and catching up with men?
In my opinion (as a man though), the more interesting varieties of feminism also encompass a celebration (or expansion) of femininity. The "feminine" does not have to be a static, rigid entity either - see Donna Harraway's "A Cyborg Manifesto", or feminist responses to Deleuze/Guattari's "rhizome". Economic justice does require some attention to the idea of equality, but it must an equality that is aware of difference, never turning a blind eye to it.. otherwise, how to address inequality? By turning back to some abstract enlightenment ideal, or by attending to the differences?
Also I am not a computer science type either (as much as I often wish I was, my degree is in art, so we are related in the $0 market), but I've been on an interesting ride so far in large part because of pd and this list/community, for which I am very grateful. You can tell by my ridiculous newbie questions from last summer :)
Also I found the mistake over Patrice really beautiful. km
On 10/18/07, Kevin McCoy km.takewithyou@gmail.com wrote:
Equality is equality, and doesn't need another name. If a man is treated
badly for his gender, does he have less right to justice because he is a member of a group less often treated badly? Maybe not in theory, but in many people's actions, yes. I believe in equal rights, but I don't believe that is accomplished by focusing on one group of people.
Chuckk, while I can sympathize with this, I would also suggest that the goal of many feminists is not equality in the limited sense of "we get the same things as men." I hope that you don't take this as any kind of attack, because certainly this is not a reflection on you, but I am almost a little bored by that idea. After a certain point, doesn't the question become - how long will we keep chasing and catching up with men?
I think it depends when and where you are. I worked for 6 years with almost all women coworkers (data entry), and the us vs. them mentality was strong and loud. I told a coworker once about a woman in Thailand who had severed her husband's genitals because she suspected he was cheating; her response: "Well I guess he won't be cheatin no more." It was a hostile environment at times, and this was acknowledged and perfectly okay in some of my coworkers' minds because so many women at different times had been subjected to hostile environments by men. My point about equality is that we're not teams that need to even some score; maybe that's obvious to most of us, but I suspect we can't help sliding into that mentality sometimes. Else genital mutilation would be equally horrifying in all circumstances.
In my opinion (as a man though), the more interesting varieties of feminism
also encompass a celebration (or expansion) of femininity.
Well said. That aspect I enjoy, but I still recoil from -isms.
The "feminine" does not have to be a static, rigid entity either - see
Donna Harraway's "A Cyborg Manifesto", or feminist responses to Deleuze/Guattari's "rhizome". Economic justice does require some attention to the idea of equality, but it must an equality that is aware of difference, never turning a blind eye to it.. otherwise, how to address inequality? By turning back to some abstract enlightenment ideal, or by attending to the differences?
I think the best way is by understanding where it comes from (understanding is not the same as sympathizing, mind you). Something so universal throughout human history can't possibly be coincidence? Throughout most of history, survival was something people clung to desperately. The idea of sending women on a raid, or to hunt, or to sail across the ocean, was tantamount to slaughtering the next generation of infants. On the other hand, they could send all of the men except one and still have the same number of young born. Obviously this is no longer the case in some parts of the world today, and, even more obviously, most of the disadvantages/horrors brought upon women based on gender were/are completely irrational if inspired by this line of thought; but I still think it's the main factor that has caused society to do these things since forever. A woman can have one baby a year, a man 365, and for that baby to be born the woman must be kept from physical danger. Or whatever else our superstitious, slime-worshiping ancestors thought might hurt their societies. Anyway it remains to be seen whether humans can ever live peacefully for any length of time, and who knows if we'll last another 100 years. Here's hoping we all get the same rights as long as we do survive.
Also I am not a computer science type either (as much as I often wish I was,
my degree is in art, so we are related in the $0 market), but I've been on an interesting ride so far in large part because of pd and this list/community, for which I am very grateful. You can tell by my ridiculous newbie questions from last summer :)
Also I found the mistake over Patrice really beautiful. km
Heh, thanks. I'm male, by the way. You know, the public transit between Philly and Jersey is called Patco, and at first I thought I had found another Pd user and Zappa fan in Philly.
-Chuckk
olaaaaa,
this is an excellent summing up of all that is wrong here... i didn't except to find soo much c.r.a.p. under the carpet .. you can call me a troll, but i don't think i'm so braindead [maybe tired].
I didn't start this thread on sexism
i started this thread mainly because i wonder why some women feel the need to create their own structures and events, and why we go straight to separatism, separate women and men, [here don't forget DEBIAN was created by DEBorah and IAN, i never knew if this one was a joke ]
so why we should have different agendas? one of the reason is that women can't take this macho c.r.ap. anymore.
because I didn't have any particular complaint against this list although I can remember some situations outside the list:
- once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an external, ah
yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well Yves can do that you don't have to do that.
- i never the patches of the _persons_ i worked with before,
i will not start tomorrow.
-once a pd friend which I wanted to talk to said ah! you are the visual artist that works with Yves. that was ok but there is this prejudice that women doing pd do visuals. Ah no, I make noise.
in fact, i do more of the visuals now but we don't use video anymore, text is more interesting.
-once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals
so Zeena Parkins, Laurie Anderson, ... never did anything..
best, sevy
On 10/18/07, Yves Degoyon ydegoyon@free.fr wrote:
olaaaaa,
this is an excellent summing up of all that is wrong here... i didn't except to find soo much c.r.a.p. under the carpet .. you can call me a troll, but i don't think i'm so braindead [maybe tired].
You never did explain why you claimed to read phrases like "wet dream" and "gang bang" here every day. Does this kind of language permeate the list whenever I turn my back? As far as I can tell your statement was a downright lie, and it caused a pretty long thread full of OT arguments. ==troll
i started this thread mainly because i wonder why some women
feel the need to create their own structures and events, and why we go straight to separatism, separate women and men,
.....
so why we should have different agendas? one of the reason is that women can't take this macho c.r.ap. anymore.
I'm not big on macho crap either, and you obviously aren't. A lot of times when people form their own separate structures, it's as much shyness as intimidation. Has THIS happened due to the language on this list??
Anyway I don't interpret crass humor as macho. Is Southpark macho? Does it repel women?
-Chuckk
In my defense (for my instigative comments earlier in the thread), im
not macho/sexist in any way, I am simply lewd, loud and obnoxious and
enjoy cynical humor, because the joke is not the joke, its the fact
that some genuinely may laugh at it. Some may even call me an
asshole, but hey, at least I didnt *start* this goddamned thread.
Anyway if you were offended, too bad. Really, Im not sure where the
"right" to not be offended comes from, but frankly, if the list (and
PD by extension) is truly to be open, someones going to be offended -
get used to it.
I realize one of my responses was sent privately, but I really want
to say, for the women (and yes, I agree, speaking of women as girls
is pretty dismissive), on the list that lurk, if you are offended by
any speech on this list, its your job to speak up, lest it be
perpetuated. Same goes for any group or individuals. However, I share
the confusion on where the hell this whole thing came from. Frankly I
think its a non issue. My opinion may not count though, as I have a
penis.
But fuck, I really do hate feminism as it is an "ism", and by that I
mean it has some strange life of its own. I could not be more for
equality though. Well said.
You know, I showed this thread to my girlfriend, and she basically
rolled her eyes and laughed at everyone who takes this thread
seriously. Stop trying to be so goddamned 'fair' and pay more
attention to user experience in PD, its interface, compatibility and
improving the overall experience of *using* the software. Perhaps
all the *girls* (GROSS!!!!!) are using Max?
On Oct 18, 2007, at 3:51 PM, Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
On 10/18/07, Yves Degoyon ydegoyon@free.fr wrote: olaaaaa,
this is an excellent summing up of all that is wrong here... i didn't except to find soo much c.r.a.p. under the carpet .. you can call me a troll, but i don't think i'm so braindead [maybe tired].
You never did explain why you claimed to read phrases like "wet
dream" and "gang bang" here every day. Does this kind of language
permeate the list whenever I turn my back? As far as I can tell
your statement was a downright lie, and it caused a pretty long
thread full of OT arguments. ==trolli started this thread mainly because i wonder why some women feel the need to create their own structures and events, and why we go straight to separatism, separate women and men, ..... so why we should have different agendas? one of the reason is that women can't take this macho c.r.ap. anymore.
I'm not big on macho crap either, and you obviously aren't. A lot
of times when people form their own separate structures, it's as
much shyness as intimidation. Has THIS happened due to the
language on this list??Anyway I don't interpret crass humor as macho. Is Southpark macho? Does it repel women?
-Chuckk
-- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
v a d e //
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On 10/18/07, Chuckk Hubbard badmuthahubbard@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/18/07, Yves Degoyon ydegoyon@free.fr wrote:
olaaaaa,
this is an excellent summing up of all that is wrong here... i didn't except to find soo much c.r.a.p. under the carpet .. you can call me a troll, but i don't think i'm so braindead [maybe tired].
You never did explain why you claimed to read phrases like "wet dream" and "gang bang" here every day. Does this kind of language permeate the list whenever I turn my back? As far as I can tell your statement was a downright lie, and it caused a pretty long thread full of OT arguments. ==troll
OK, I think calling Yves an instigator (ie. trolling) is neither here nor there. It's just some dumb little label. You know that it doesn't add support for or against the point she made. Don't get so caught up on "facts"--the perception and subjective experience of discrimination/bias is just as important.
and your point is made more clear later on:
i started this thread mainly because i wonder why some women feel the need to create their own structures and events, and why we go straight to separatism, separate women and men,
.....
so why we should have different agendas? one of the reason is that women can't take this macho c.r.ap. anymore.
which is plainly valid. Other people have added their experiences that give a broader picture of what's going on, and support this reason. .... and outside the art or programming worlds, there is still a great need for feminism, whether or not you want to call it that. I won't try to back this up, I don't think I could adequately explain.
On 10/19/07, Charles Henry czhenry@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/18/07, Chuckk Hubbard badmuthahubbard@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/18/07, Yves Degoyon ydegoyon@free.fr wrote:
olaaaaa,
this is an excellent summing up of all that is wrong here... i didn't except to find soo much c.r.a.p. under the carpet .. you can call me a troll, but i don't think i'm so braindead [maybe tired].
You never did explain why you claimed to read phrases like "wet dream"
and
"gang bang" here every day. Does this kind of language permeate the
list
whenever I turn my back? As far as I can tell your statement was a downright lie, and it caused a pretty long thread full of OT arguments. ==troll
OK, I think calling Yves an instigator (ie. trolling) is neither here nor there. It's just some dumb little label. You know that it doesn't add support for or against the point she made.
Honestly I wasn't even sure this sevy was really Yves, and for that matter I know nothing about Yves. As I said- the original statement was completely untrue; and the original poster hasn't responded to that fact. I honestly did not believe the subject was a problem on this list.
Don't get so caught up on "facts"--the perception and subjective experience of discrimination/bias is just as important.
And subjective. Which is to say anyone can experience it. The grass is always greener on the other side. As a feeling it's perfectly valid, like all feelings.
and your point is made more clear later on:
i started this thread mainly because i wonder why some women feel the need to create their own structures and events, and why we go straight to separatism, separate women and men,
.....
so why we should have different agendas? one of the reason is that women can't take this macho c.r.ap. anymore.
which is plainly valid. Other people have added their experiences that give a broader picture of what's going on, and support this reason. .... and outside the art or programming worlds, there is still a great need for feminism, whether or not you want to call it that. I won't try to back this up, I don't think I could adequately explain.
Well like I said, I'd rather try to understand the mechanism behind something than to judge those involved. IMO you can't have a broader picture and pronounce judgments at the same time.
-Chuckk
ola,
Honestly I wasn't even sure this sevy was really Yves, and for that matter I know nothing about Yves. As I said- the original statement was completely untrue; and the original poster hasn't responded to that fact. I honestly did not believe the subject was a problem on this list.
wrong! i sent this after reading 'wettest dream' in a mail from 2 weeks ago, but anyway it was 2 years or more that this was going on, and was also a general feeling from pd convention ( seems work groups were only constituted of men ), too bad some people speaking here were not there.
saludos, sevy
On 10/19/07, ydegoyon@free.fr ydegoyon@free.fr wrote:
ola,
Honestly I wasn't even sure this sevy was really Yves, and for that
matter I
know nothing about Yves. As I said- the original statement was
completely
untrue; and the original poster hasn't responded to that fact. I
honestly
did not believe the subject was a problem on this list.
wrong! i sent this after reading 'wettest dream' in a mail from 2 weeks ago, but anyway it was 2 years or more that this was going on, and was also a general feeling from pd convention ( seems work groups were only constituted of men ), too bad some people speaking here were not there.
My mistake, I thought you were commenting about this list, not the pd convention. I see that post now, thank you for addressing my question. I don't see eye to eye with you on this. I'm not sure there's cause and effect between someone referring to Christiaan Huygens having wet dreams and there being a greater number of men than women on this list; and if there is, I suspect the demographic imbalance is more cause than effect. I could be wrong, but I'm not ready to join the crusade. On the other hand I'm more than ready to refrain from posting vulgarities myself. This is one of the most benign, tolerant free software forums I've found. You should see the #debian IRC channel. Your children should not!
-Chuckk
hey!
Yves Degoyon a écrit :
olaaaaa,
in fact, i do more of the visuals now but we don't use video anymore, text is more interesting.
I'd like to ask you something*. What are you working on?
Is (and how it is) it related with sound?
-once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals
so Zeena Parkins, Laurie Anderson, ... never did anything..
Yeah! "Superman" is a great (and certainly one of the best) minimalistic audiovisual piece.
best, sevy
- If you can't answer, no problemo.
Patrice Colet a écrit :
-once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals
so Zeena Parkins, Laurie Anderson, ... never did anything..
Yeah! "Superman" is a great (and certainly one of the best) minimalistic audiovisual piece.
I've made a typo it's Laurie Anderson's "oh superman"
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Alicia Byer -
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Chuckk Hubbard -
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
Kevin McCoy -
Mathieu Bouchard -
Patrice Colet -
pueblo＠mail.ljudmila.org -
Roman Haefeli -
vade -
ydegoyon＠free.fr -
Yves Degoyon