In term of DSP processing I've found that Pure Data sound better than max,
it sounds like if we remove all the unnecessary electronics from a studio mixerboard,
which is the good point, someone else in the list has already made a comparission and C-sound seems to be the most promising.
But beyond this we haven't got all the stuff proposed for building also Music,
like music score editors, or internals with the base for building a decent and light mixerboard, etc...
all this stuff doesn't …
[View More]seem so necessary from an engineer point of view,
I might be very wrong again, but to go directly to the point,
because he knows where to look for in the patch.
The influence of this relationship over the music often have tendances to express musical forms
where we hear technical limitations.
I figure it's just a matter of time of developping, a stradivarius isn't made in decade.
best
----- Mail Original -----
De: "Alexandre Porres" <porres(a)gmail.com>
À: "colet patrice" <colet.patrice(a)free.fr>
Cc: "pd-list" <pd-list(a)iem.at>
Envoyé: Vendredi 16 Avril 2010 20h38:55 GMT +01:00 Amsterdam / Berlin / Berne / Rome / Stockholm / Vienne
Objet: Re: [PD] nusmuk_audio WAS: Max Smoother Audio than Pd?
> without a good media, we can't get good results
Guess my point wasnt clear yet. I'm saying every media has its potential, there's no "good" or "bad", anything can be best applied for some purpose, even a "shitty" clarinet... it can produce sounds irregularly and with spectral content that other clarinets might not...
BTW, this is a simple discussion about art and media and not about Pd, it is not even a discussion about taste, but I can feel in your arguments that you have strong preconceptions... you seem to have a strong fixed idea on how things should or must be, about your taste and aesthetics, and I guess that is just bad to mix that where it doesn't belong. That's why maybe it's so hard to make myself clear...
>I don't tell all the world each time I use a pd patch
why should you, right? Unless someone asks I guess.
>It's not a problem of 'working' but a problem of 'sounding'.
But Damn, it is you who's making the sounds... (!!!) Now this is completely vague, and it seems you are missing the point of being objective and is once yet again letting subjective aesthetical preconceptions or even something else speak up more where it doesn't belong. In order for this discussion not to be so pointless, you'd need to point out objectively what the hell you are talking about. I guess the thread has also been mislead, are you saying MAX or somethng else sounds better by the way?
cheers
2010/4/16 < colet.patrice(a)free.fr >
>Oh, wasn't the metaphor clear, really?
nope
>well, no problem, here you go then... once more...
there you go
>We don't care to know if someone says; "Hey, I got a clarinet", we wanna know what he is doing with it, in a sense that it'd make more sense if the person would come and say; "Hey, check out, look what I do >with my clarinet". The point here is to emphasize the instrument as a tool, a media, something that you use to make an idea come true... so the point, in the end, is to present this idea. the media should not >be the interesting thing, but the result!
without a good media, we can't get good results,
reverbs sounding like bathrooms were cool when Joe Meek used it fifty years ago,
but now the situation is a bit different.
>So maybe you need and want a shitty clarinet to achieve the objective you have, maybe you need a quite expensive one. Nevertheless, the point is what you do with it.
The clarinetist of one chamber orchestra I've wrote for had to use a 'C' clarinette that sounded like shit to play all the notes,
instead of her cool but expensive B flat, the result is that I don't liked the sound she had.
(If you want to compare I can send you the files)
>As I said, that are things you can only do in Pd... which is basically when you need to program something. If you dont see that, maybe you dont need it!
I use Pd for other purpose than trying to convince people I could make music with it, even if I've made several pieces with that it's possible to download.
>And since we need to program it, we are the ones doing the thing, Pd is not doing much for us. And yeah, you build stuff with it. So maybe you should not waste your time building things that are already there, >why reinvent the wheel? If you can do something in Pd, it doesn't mean it has to be done in Pd, or that is easier to do it with it.
I use the stuff I've built with pd for show numbers, like modern circus, and I don't tell all the world each time I use a pd patch.
>So, anyway, if you build something in Pd that does not work, it is your fault, not Pd's... if you built a clarinet in it that does not do what you want and need, maybe you should ask a guy who's good at >clarinet building...
It's not a problem of 'working' but a problem of 'sounding'.
>hope it was clearer now, can't make it clearer than that I guess, by the way...
I do appreciate.
>take care
thank you for your effort in my understanding, but I still remain on the idea that pd is just a tool for learning dsp,
but indeed it can be used for other purposes,
maybe that is where the discussion has evolved, but
when one knows how dsp works, I guess that person would use real developper tools to make his stuff, like a compiler.
cheers
2010/4/15 < colet.patrice(a)free.fr >
I would care about how the clarinette is sounding, if I or a skilled clarinetist
can't make a melody with it, i would play with noises...
Selon Alexandre Porres < porres(a)gmail.com >:
> > pd is just a tool for learning dsp, there is no such project that show how
> > pd is cool to make people moving on the dance floor.
>
> Is that what you are really expecting pd to be or sound like? Well, indeed,
> I disagree Pd would be a proper tool for that. And you are really wrong to
> assume pd is only a tool to study DSP, although it is in fact really good
> for that as well.
>
> Now, you are missing completely the points of using Pd, and if you can't
> imagine why you would need pd to do things that you can only do in pd, maybe
> pd is not for you... no, it ain't a money maker for the dance floor dj...
>
> I see musicians and artist that see why they need to do something in pd and
> ask for help. It is common to have an artist creating a piece that uses Pd
> without knowing how to program it, but working in conjunction with a
> programmer.
>
> And of course, Pd can be only a minor (but essential) thing on the
> project... you don't need to reinvent the wheel in Pd, or just use Pd if you
> are using it... there is no rule for that... in a sense that I don't see
> there is such a thing called "pd music".
>
> > who is the musician, Pierre Schaeffer, or Pierre Henry?
>
> I dont see the point here... Of thousands of people who work with computer
> music/technology, do we only have mostly Pierre Schaeffers out there? Is
> Pierre Henry the Only guy who gets to be a musician? If someone is using pd
> then he can't be Pierre Henry or many other thousands of people I know
> besides him that are actually great musicians?
>
> And yeah, nobody cares if someone comes out and says; "Hey, look what an
> amazing I have here, I got a Clarinet!!! And I built it... or someone who's
> really good built it for me!!!". All we want to know is, what do you do with
> it, right? And we don't really care about the Clarinet. And if you don't
> like it, don't blame it on the clarinet...
>
> cheers
>
[View Less]
> unfortunately, this is not a trivial issue.
>
> dynamically changing the signal graph is possible (actually, i had an
> implementation of that in nova). do the topological sorting in the
> background and you are fine.
>
> the tricky part are implicit dependencies. see this trivial patch:
> |adc~|
> |
> |send~ foo|
>
> |receive~ foo|
> |
> |dac~|
>
> it execution order is ambiguous. either (a) adc-send-receive-dac or
> (b) receive-dac-adc-send.…
[View More] the actual execution order depends on the
> implementation. the case (b) introduces one sample block of latency between
> send and receive, (a) doesn't introduce any latency.
> without the loss of generality, lets assume that the actual order of the dsp
> graph is (b). now you add a connection between adc~ and dac~. the
> topological sorting of the dsp graph may come to the execution order (a).
> adding the connection, you change the layout of the signal graph, changing
> the order of send~ and receive~ and therefore its semantics. you actually
> loose one sample block and therefore have an audio dropout.
>
> if there are any possibilities to circumvent this issue, i haven't found
> any. for special cases, it works, but whenever implicit dependencies have to
> be taken into account, things are getting very messy. if you want to have
> dynamically changing signal graphs, don't use max-like languages. it is not
> a problem of the implementation, it is a problem of the programming model in
> general! if you need dynamically changing signal graphs, you should use a
> system, that is designed for this use case.
The standard way of dealing with this problem is probably the same as
the way one deals with the analogous problem with delread~/delwrite~.
I attached a patch -- if you embed each of the object instances in
question within a subpatch and connect the subpatches in the order you
want, you'll force the execution order. This little patch is pretty
stupid because it looks like it ignores the reasons for needing to use
send~/receive~ in the first place (that is, because you're using
send~/receive~ AND a connection in the same place). However, I've
found it's not that bad if I'm using it in a really large patch, as
long as I keep things hierarchical and modular - the hierarchy can
help with forcing execution order cleanly, and making things modular
makes it easier to do more of it at once.
Doing it dynamically is a whole other issue, though (and the point of
this thread) -- if I really need a dynamic graph I'll usually use
supercollider instead, although sometimes you can fake it in Pd by
hard-coding and instantiating everything you need ahead of time if
it's simple enough, and then just switch~ing the correct possibility
on and the others off when appropriate; a waste of resources.
Matt
[View Less]
Hey All
I've recently been looking at possibilities for networked performance with pd. So far I've found that [netsend] and [netrecieve] only seem to take numeric data (I.E. no symbols or bangs). This might be the result of the abstraction I'm using (made by one of my workshoppers) which sends messages with through a message box [send chan1 $1(, [send chan2 $1( etc.
I've solved the bangs problem by sending a number repeatedly and having a [sel] at the receiving end. However I am interested in …
[View More]using netsend as a basic messaging system (to conduct a laptop group by typing from a central machine).
_________________________________________________________________
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/
[View Less]
> depending on their implementation, it may be possible to do
> click-free changes of the dsp graph, which is the weakest part
> of the dsp engine of pd.
This recalls me of a possibly unrelated even "bigger" problem: you get
audio dropouts even by opening a window (such as a subpatch or
abstraction by right click -> open). Why? Is the dsp graph redrawn when
opening a window? Is there a reason for doing that? Or is something else
the cause for such dropouts (maybe some memory …
[View More]allocation)? But then,
shouldn't _anything_ happening when opening a window affect _only_ the
gui process?
--
Matteo Sisti Sette
matteosistisette(a)gmail.com
http://www.matteosistisette.com
[View Less]
Roman,
//----------
//----- Mail Original -----
//De: "Roman Haefeli" <reduzierer(a)yahoo.de>
//À: "colet patrice" <colet.patrice(a)free.fr>
//Cc: "Mathieu Bouchard" <matju(a)artengine.ca>, "pd-list" <pd-list(a)iem.at>
//Envoyé: Samedi 17 Avril 2010 00h14:24 GMT +01:00 Amsterdam / Berlin / Berne / Rome / Stockholm / Vienne
//Objet: Re: [PD] nusmuk_audio WAS: Max Smoother Audio than Pd?
//A djembé drummer says: "You cannot make dance music alone, you need
//other …
[View More]drummers as well". Patko says: "Making dance music requires
//advanced technologies". Roman says: "Where is the sine? I cannot dance
//without an [osc~ =<20]".
//----------
I'd say we won't dance without also trigging [osc~ 71]
//----------
> Not to say that an instrument would sound better if there is a background image or such,
> but the way we are accessing data and modulate them has a severe influence on inspiration.
>
> At the end the best compromise I've found is like obiwannabe's work, where the patch is the piece.
//I guess I'm missing your point here. How does that relate to what you
//said above?
//----------------------
I say that because I and others tried to build some kinds of tools to group all the tools made with pd,
the only one I know that work is netpd, and wasn't satisfied of the result of a ton of work,
because there is always something missing, but with grouping everything in a patch, it's possible to combine
all the necessary stuff needed by inspirations coming from different cultural influences.
[View Less]
hello everyone,
In the link below there is a video documentation of a brand new performance
with the new MANO Controller called Silent Construction 2 in a new
webpage... lots of new things...
For those who were in Sao Paulo for the PdCon you may have heard Silent
Construction 1 (for Silent Drum). As in that case everything is done in
Pd/GEM and a few new externals...
hope you like it...:
http://www.jaimeoliver.pe/workobra/silent-construction-series/sc2
best,
J
--
Jaime E Oliver LR
www.…
[View More]jaimeoliver.pe
858 750 0924 (cel)
858 202 1522 (home)
9168 Regents Rd. Apt. G
La Jolla, CA 92037
USA
[View Less]
uh I missed roman inputs, fortunately there are the archives
"
Are you implying there was no dance music since the 80's? How bad will
actual 'best technologies' will be in a few years? Is that a discussion
about certain aesthethics you're looking for or about technical
possibilities?
"
I took dance as an example of musics that needs to answer a number of sound characteristics
where technical possibilities are seriously implied in aestethics.
Not to say that an instrument would sound …
[View More]better if there is a background image or such,
but the way we are accessing data and modulate them has a severe influence on inspiration.
At the end the best compromise I've found is like obiwannabe's work, where the patch is the piece.
----- Mail Original -----
De: "Mathieu Bouchard" <matju(a)artengine.ca>
À: "Roman Haefeli" <reduzierer(a)yahoo.de>
Cc: "colet patrice" <colet.patrice(a)free.fr>, "pd-list" <pd-list(a)iem.at>
Envoyé: Vendredi 16 Avril 2010 18h53:40 GMT +01:00 Amsterdam / Berlin / Berne / Rome / Stockholm / Vienne
Objet: Re: [PD] nusmuk_audio WAS: Max Smoother Audio than Pd?
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010, Roman Haefeli wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-04-16 at 14:04 +0200, colet.patrice(a)free.fr wrote:
>> show me a patch that correctly mix soundfiles.
> That interests me. Can you elaborate a bit more what you mean by
> "mixing"?
Interesting, I was more concerned by the use of the word « correctly ».
For a even a simple cross-fade, any way of smoothing the output of a
slider is a potential matter of personal preference, and whichever way you
pick has eventual slightly different consequences on the result.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ...
| Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
[View Less]
I apoligize for the perhaps poor choice of words. I wasn't bashing tcl in general, but only meant that there seems to be a fairly large sentiment that it doesn't belong in the interface between client and server processes.
-s
On Apr 16, 2010 9:02 PM, errordeveloper(a)gmail.com <errordeveloper(a)gmail.com> wrote:
i think by calling Tcl a garbage you are certainly provoking a flame war.
On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 02:46:44PM -0400, Spencer Russell wrote:
> Hey List.
&…
[View More]amp;gt;
> Just came across Zen Garden:
>
> http://wiki.github.com/mhroth/ZenGarden/
>
> Seems like the RJDJ crew is re-implementing PD in C++, in it's full
> object-oriented glory.
>
> I'm excited about the idea of a more object-oriented approach, and
> especially with the idea of ditching all the Tk/Tcl garbage, but I
> don't really see the utility of re-implementing all the DSP graph
> code.
>
> I haven't looked at the ZenGarden code at all yet though, so maybe
> they're doing a lot of borrowing where it makes sense?
>
> Maybe we can talk about this interesting development without a flame
> war? Unlikely.
>
> -s
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pd-list(a)iem.at mailing list
> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[View Less]
Hey Jaime
i can only talk for me ;-) I like it a lot....the MANO controller.
And its just one object ???
Very cool work... please organize concerts in europe, or better germany
Thumbs up
ciao luigi
Am 16.04.2010 um 23:46 schrieb pd-list-request(a)iem.at:
>>>>> hello everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In the link below there is a video documentation of a brand
>>>> new
>>>>> performance with …
[View More]the new MANO Controller called Silent
>>>> Construction 2
>>>>> in a new webpage... lots of new things...
>>>>> For those who were in Sao Paulo for the PdCon you may have
>>>> heard
>>>>> Silent Construction 1 (for Silent Drum). As in that case
>>>> everything is
>>>>> done in Pd/GEM and a few new externals...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> hope you like it...:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
Dipl.-Ing. Luigi Rensinghoff
postmaster(a)halbsolaut.de
Mobil: 01775412191
Festnetz: 0351-7966370
web: www.halbsolaut.de
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