Pd-list April 2010

pd-list@lists.iem.at

143 participants
284 discussions

Re: [PD] phasor~ and osc~ right inlet: exact timing
by Matteo Sisti Sette 18 Apr '10

18 Apr '10

> Actually I meant two write "take a [samphold~] of the original > phasor". Taking a snapshot~ or rather, a vsnapshot~ is something > I have also tried, but it gives the wrong results. See attached > example for a comparison of [vsnapshot~]->[vline~] with > Mike's [samphold~] solution (which I simplified a bit). Lesson > to learn: [vsnapshot~]->[vline~] > won't do what you may expect it to do. Very very interesting. Basically you have to take into account that vsnapshot~ samples the signal with a delay of one block~ (and it couldn't be otherwise), which renders it useless for the phasor~ accurate reset application. The [samphold~] solution is brilliant. I attach a test patch to demonstrate the one-block delay of vsnapshot~ (it could already be appreciated in your patch but here it is "isolated") -- Matteo Sisti Sette matteosistisette(a)gmail.com http://www.matteosistisette.com #N canvas 405 8 859 776 12; #X obj 392 34 table xxx 256; #X obj 99 57 bang~; #X obj 99 91 spigot; #X obj 178 41 tgl 15 0 empty empty empty 17 7 0 10 -262144 -1 -1 0 1; #X obj 99 124 t b b; #X msg 186 122 0; #X obj 99 228 t b b; #X obj 94 426 vline~; #X obj 123 605 tabwrite~ xxx; #X obj 145 333 delay 0.2; #X msg 145 367 1; #X msg 55 363 0; #X obj 57 329 delay 0.4; #X obj 345 537 vsnapshot~; #X floatatom 346 571 5 0 0 0 - - -; #X obj 361 352 delay 0.3; #X obj 98 273 t b b b b; #X obj 467 537 vsnapshot~; #X floatatom 468 571 5 0 0 0 - - -; #X obj 458 352 delay 1.7; #X text 540 349 //this is one block later; #X connect 1 0 2 0; #X connect 2 0 4 0; #X connect 3 0 2 1; #X connect 4 0 6 0; #X connect 4 1 5 0; #X connect 5 0 3 0; #X connect 6 0 16 0; #X connect 6 1 8 0; #X connect 7 0 13 0; #X connect 7 0 8 0; #X connect 7 0 17 0; #X connect 9 0 10 0; #X connect 10 0 7 0; #X connect 11 0 7 0; #X connect 12 0 11 0; #X connect 13 0 14 0; #X connect 15 0 13 0; #X connect 16 0 12 0; #X connect 16 1 9 0; #X connect 16 2 15 0; #X connect 16 3 19 0; #X connect 17 0 18 0; #X connect 19 0 17 0;

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Re: [PD] Send and receive execution order was Re: Zen Garden, re-implementing the wheel in C++?
by Matt Barber 18 Apr '10

18 Apr '10

> Hi, > > On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 01:07:21PM +0200, Matteo Sisti Sette wrote: >> Frank Barknecht escribi?: >> > *If* order matters to you (it may not always do) you can still use >> >the subpatch approach with dummy inlet~/outlet~ objects. >> >> That's the part I don't understand. I mean I can't figure out the >> trick. I can easily imagine (and actually tried) how to patch things >> to force the desired order, but then again, I see myself obliged to >> do the wired connections that the [s~]/[r~]s were meant to avoid. >> >> May you please make an example of the technique? I would be so grateful. > > Attached is a very stupid example, which should show what I mean: Here > various abstractions are layed out in a way, that they execute in order. > Only one connection is used for order forcing, but still many s~/r~ are > active, all properly ordered. > > Real life examples may not be so easy to sort, of course. > Here's a relatively simple real-life example I posted a couple weeks ago: http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2010-04/077392.html In this example I had an algebra problem that was complex enough that it would have been way too messy to draw wires for each term, so instead I named the terms and sent them via send~/receive~. However, because it was algebraic and not "just" an fx patch (where latency may or may not have mattered as much), I had to force execution order. It's really useful in cases where you have 10 send~s in one subpatch, because you can force order with just one connection -- sometimes a lot cleaner than 10 wires, especially when those wires would have gone to several different places. Matt PS -- I think my example has one unnecessary dummy outlet~/inlet~ pair, but I was being paranoid.

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Send and receive execution order was Re: Zen Garden re-implementing the wheel in C++?
by Matteo Sisti Sette 18 Apr '10

18 Apr '10

> > Please anybody correct me if I am wrong, but I think _unless > > there are > > loops in the graph_ there is _always_ an order that ensures no added > > latency, and finding out that order is all what dsp-graph computing > > is > > about!!! I always thought Pd would take care of that.... > > perhaps doesn't it?? > > no. if you want to ensure the order of execution, [...] Well, it does for direct wired connections obviously. So my error was to think that a [send~]-[receive~] pair was the same as an invisible wire. Now the subpatch trick (btw thank you for pointing me to the documentation resources about it) doesn't help at all for [send~] and [receive~] does it? I mean it's applicable but if you can arrange the send and receive into subpatches that you have to connect physically, then you don't need the s~ and r~ in the first place... So when you use send~s and receive~s, basically there's no way of enforcing a correct execution order?!? -- Matteo Sisti Sette matteosistisette(a)gmail.com http://www.matteosistisette.com

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puredata_gui_design
by red honki 18 Apr '10

18 Apr '10

hi, i am honki. i do some designs about puredata. illustration: http://www.flickr.com/photos/honki/sets/72157607652279654/ gui: http://www.flickr.com/photos/honki/4522863658/ i wnat to know where i can find pd log svg ? thank. honki

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Twitter?
by Jerome Covington 17 Apr '10

17 Apr '10

Any recommendations on Twitter users to follow who are doing/trending exciting work in audio development? -- Regards, Jerome Covington . . . . : . . . . : "define audio development"

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Zen Garden re-implementing the wheel in C++?
by Spencer Russell 17 Apr '10

17 Apr '10

Hey List. Just came across Zen Garden: http://wiki.github.com/mhroth/ZenGarden/ Seems like the RJDJ crew is re-implementing PD in C++, in it's full object-oriented glory. I'm excited about the idea of a more object-oriented approach, and especially with the idea of ditching all the Tk/Tcl garbage, but I don't really see the utility of re-implementing all the DSP graph code. I haven't looked at the ZenGarden code at all yet though, so maybe they're doing a lot of borrowing where it makes sense? Maybe we can talk about this interesting development without a flame war? Unlikely. -s

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keycode 92: dropped
by Mathieu Bouchard 17 Apr '10

17 Apr '10

> I've been complaining that we should be able to use "$0" in messages for > the sake of simplicity. Apparently you can if you use "\" before it... > BUT... Pd does not allow you to write it... as if it REALLY did not want > you to do it... there are many things wrong with the backslash. if i put 92 through [makefilename %c] it makes two backslashes. if I use it as a $1 inside of a symbol it becomes four backslashes. if I try to print it, it becomes 8 backslashes (unless GridFlow is loaded, because it installs its own [print]). Those hacks probably all come from trying to fix a backslash bug by brute force. By fixing the bug in three places, you cancel one of the original bugs by three new bugs opposite to the original one, so, whether that original bug shows up, you can get up to three new bugs stacked on each other, and then, most of the original bugs are still there (iemgui labels still can't take backslashes, etc). That's just the backslashes... Keycode 123 is actually much more dangerous. _ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801

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pd and multi-core processors
by Mathieu Bouchard 17 Apr '10

17 Apr '10

> can someone tell me if one instance of pd (with gem) can use more than > one core on multi-core processor? Beyond the new stuff with [pd~], there is also threading in new versions of [soundfiler], and there is some threading in the input/output modules of GEM, such as cameras. There is also other forms of multiprocessing involved : part of the management of the patch windows is happening in a separate process involving Tcl/Tk. Then, depending on your OS, there is some amount of multiprocessing involved : for example, in Linux, the default display system is X11, and then, using X11 is considered as a kind of network connection between separate programmes. So, those are all manners in which patches can spread themselves on several CPUs. However, if you want to do heavy processing using [pix_...] objects (and/or GridFlow and PDP) then all of it will use only one CPU, except for some of the I/O modules as I said above. _ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801

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Re: [PD] puredata_gui_design
by red honki 17 Apr '10

17 Apr '10

hi, i wnat to know where i can find pd logo svg ? i need it to do some design. thahk.

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Re: [PD] nusmuk_audio WAS: Max Smoother Audio than Pd?
by colet.patrice＠free.fr 17 Apr '10

17 Apr '10

In term of DSP processing I've found that Pure Data sound better than max, it sounds like if we remove all the unnecessary electronics from a studio mixerboard, which is the good point, someone else in the list has already made a comparission and C-sound seems to be the most promising. But beyond this we haven't got all the stuff proposed for building also Music, like music score editors, or internals with the base for building a decent and light mixerboard, etc... all this stuff doesn't seem so necessary from an engineer point of view, I might be very wrong again, but to go directly to the point, because he knows where to look for in the patch. The influence of this relationship over the music often have tendances to express musical forms where we hear technical limitations. I figure it's just a matter of time of developping, a stradivarius isn't made in decade. best ----- Mail Original ----- De: "Alexandre Porres" <porres(a)gmail.com> À: "colet patrice" <colet.patrice(a)free.fr> Cc: "pd-list" <pd-list(a)iem.at> Envoyé: Vendredi 16 Avril 2010 20h38:55 GMT +01:00 Amsterdam / Berlin / Berne / Rome / Stockholm / Vienne Objet: Re: [PD] nusmuk_audio WAS: Max Smoother Audio than Pd? > without a good media, we can't get good results Guess my point wasnt clear yet. I'm saying every media has its potential, there's no "good" or "bad", anything can be best applied for some purpose, even a "shitty" clarinet... it can produce sounds irregularly and with spectral content that other clarinets might not... BTW, this is a simple discussion about art and media and not about Pd, it is not even a discussion about taste, but I can feel in your arguments that you have strong preconceptions... you seem to have a strong fixed idea on how things should or must be, about your taste and aesthetics, and I guess that is just bad to mix that where it doesn't belong. That's why maybe it's so hard to make myself clear... >I don't tell all the world each time I use a pd patch why should you, right? Unless someone asks I guess. >It's not a problem of 'working' but a problem of 'sounding'. But Damn, it is you who's making the sounds... (!!!) Now this is completely vague, and it seems you are missing the point of being objective and is once yet again letting subjective aesthetical preconceptions or even something else speak up more where it doesn't belong. In order for this discussion not to be so pointless, you'd need to point out objectively what the hell you are talking about. I guess the thread has also been mislead, are you saying MAX or somethng else sounds better by the way? cheers 2010/4/16 < colet.patrice(a)free.fr > >Oh, wasn't the metaphor clear, really? nope >well, no problem, here you go then... once more... there you go >We don't care to know if someone says; "Hey, I got a clarinet", we wanna know what he is doing with it, in a sense that it'd make more sense if the person would come and say; "Hey, check out, look what I do >with my clarinet". The point here is to emphasize the instrument as a tool, a media, something that you use to make an idea come true... so the point, in the end, is to present this idea. the media should not >be the interesting thing, but the result! without a good media, we can't get good results, reverbs sounding like bathrooms were cool when Joe Meek used it fifty years ago, but now the situation is a bit different. >So maybe you need and want a shitty clarinet to achieve the objective you have, maybe you need a quite expensive one. Nevertheless, the point is what you do with it. The clarinetist of one chamber orchestra I've wrote for had to use a 'C' clarinette that sounded like shit to play all the notes, instead of her cool but expensive B flat, the result is that I don't liked the sound she had. (If you want to compare I can send you the files) >As I said, that are things you can only do in Pd... which is basically when you need to program something. If you dont see that, maybe you dont need it! I use Pd for other purpose than trying to convince people I could make music with it, even if I've made several pieces with that it's possible to download. >And since we need to program it, we are the ones doing the thing, Pd is not doing much for us. And yeah, you build stuff with it. So maybe you should not waste your time building things that are already there, >why reinvent the wheel? If you can do something in Pd, it doesn't mean it has to be done in Pd, or that is easier to do it with it. I use the stuff I've built with pd for show numbers, like modern circus, and I don't tell all the world each time I use a pd patch. >So, anyway, if you build something in Pd that does not work, it is your fault, not Pd's... if you built a clarinet in it that does not do what you want and need, maybe you should ask a guy who's good at >clarinet building... It's not a problem of 'working' but a problem of 'sounding'. >hope it was clearer now, can't make it clearer than that I guess, by the way... I do appreciate. >take care thank you for your effort in my understanding, but I still remain on the idea that pd is just a tool for learning dsp, but indeed it can be used for other purposes, maybe that is where the discussion has evolved, but when one knows how dsp works, I guess that person would use real developper tools to make his stuff, like a compiler. cheers 2010/4/15 < colet.patrice(a)free.fr > I would care about how the clarinette is sounding, if I or a skilled clarinetist can't make a melody with it, i would play with noises... Selon Alexandre Porres < porres(a)gmail.com >: > > pd is just a tool for learning dsp, there is no such project that show how > > pd is cool to make people moving on the dance floor. > > Is that what you are really expecting pd to be or sound like? Well, indeed, > I disagree Pd would be a proper tool for that. And you are really wrong to > assume pd is only a tool to study DSP, although it is in fact really good > for that as well. > > Now, you are missing completely the points of using Pd, and if you can't > imagine why you would need pd to do things that you can only do in pd, maybe > pd is not for you... no, it ain't a money maker for the dance floor dj... > > I see musicians and artist that see why they need to do something in pd and > ask for help. It is common to have an artist creating a piece that uses Pd > without knowing how to program it, but working in conjunction with a > programmer. > > And of course, Pd can be only a minor (but essential) thing on the > project... you don't need to reinvent the wheel in Pd, or just use Pd if you > are using it... there is no rule for that... in a sense that I don't see > there is such a thing called "pd music". > > > who is the musician, Pierre Schaeffer, or Pierre Henry? > > I dont see the point here... Of thousands of people who work with computer > music/technology, do we only have mostly Pierre Schaeffers out there? Is > Pierre Henry the Only guy who gets to be a musician? If someone is using pd > then he can't be Pierre Henry or many other thousands of people I know > besides him that are actually great musicians? > > And yeah, nobody cares if someone comes out and says; "Hey, look what an > amazing I have here, I got a Clarinet!!! And I built it... or someone who's > really good built it for me!!!". All we want to know is, what do you do with > it, right? And we don't really care about the Clarinet. And if you don't > like it, don't blame it on the clarinet... > > cheers >

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Pd-list April 2010