----- "Mathieu Bouchard" matju@artengine.ca a écrit :
or Psychic TV,
I didn't know they made industrial music. Do they ? All I have from them is acid house and satanic funk.
You should listen to older albums, like "Gondole".
but industrialized music, that follows rules only driven by profit.
but the profit, that profit, what is it driven by ? eventually you have to sell it to people who think it's art.
Not really, but I imagine that if media only releases art defined by
political, or monetarist rules, it's not art anymore, art IS
killed.
How deader was art back when Michel-Ange was having a contract with the Church and the Church was a major political power ? What with those long spans of art history in which if art wasn't about the bible it was about the royal family. You can't get much more politically-controlled than
that.
You only know art that has survived through the ages, and obviously those political controllers has certainly destroyed all the art that doesn't follow their own set of rules, for example, in France most of Celtic monuments has been replaced by catholic monuments.
From: patko colet.patrice@free.fr To: Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca Cc: pd-list pd-list@iem.at Sent: Sat, June 12, 2010 7:59:29 PM Subject: Re: [PD] plugin~ external
----- "Mathieu Bouchard" matju@artengine.ca a écrit :
or Psychic TV,
I didn't know they made industrial music. Do they ? All I have from them is acid house and satanic funk.
You should listen to older albums, like "Gondole".
but industrialized music, that follows rules only driven by profit.
but the profit, that profit, what is it driven by ? eventually you have to sell it to people who think it's art.
Not really, but I imagine that if media only releases art defined by
political, or monetarist rules, it's not art anymore, art IS
killed.
How deader was art back when Michel-Ange was having a contract with the Church and the Church was a major political power ? What with those long spans of art history in which if art wasn't about the bible it was about the royal family. You can't get much more politically-controlled than
that.
You only know art that has survived through the ages, and obviously those political controllers has certainly destroyed all the art that doesn't follow their own set of rules, for example, in France most of Celtic monuments has been replaced by catholic monuments.
There are "naughty" pieces by Mozart that have survived the ages, regardless of past Mozart scholars who have excluded them from their catalogues of the "complete" works of Mozart. It may have been ignored for a bit, but the cult of genius generally trumps the opportunistic desire to destroy art.
Anyway, your point that "it's not art anymore, art IS killed" is clearly false. Imagine a tyrant who declares that the only suitable music is a) by Beethoven and b) in C minor. It's certainly a travesty that anything by Haydn or David Bowie would be banned, as well as Beethoven's 6th Symphony, but it surely remains a fact that Beethoven's 5th is still a great symphony, regardless of the tyrant's endorsement.
There are plenty of pieces of music that sell very well in times of nationalist fervor, or in general. But it's sheer confusion to say that these pieces _aren't_ art for that reason. That's misdirected anger; the real problem is that other pieces are excluded because they either don't fit easily into a category, or they present an alternative viewpoint that sits uncomfortably with general opinion (i.e., dissident music).
-Jonathan
How deader was art back when Michel-Ange was having a contract with the Church and the Church was a major political power ? What with those long spans of art history in which if art wasn't about the bible it was about the royal family. You can't get much more politically-controlled than
that.
You should really listen to some old music. Bach, for instance, did time in jail, because he spoke down to his employer once. And people used to think his music was "dirty"(Not much has changed since. Same thing happens today when the general public is confronted with something a bit unfamiliar, and people will still today not be able to digest some of Bachs music, because it is just too hard to listen to).
He wrote mostly religious music, and it was not always so comfortable for the church people, since Bach liked to play really dissonant music. He stretched the boundaries, when he could.
Of course, he couldn't go too far. There are some pieces where he goes much further, which are not meant for Concert use (for the genereal public). Check out the fugue in h-minor in Wohltemperierte Clavier, Book
- The initial melody line is 20th century stuff. Some of the pieces
Bach wrote had no audience, so he wrote them for himself and anyone who would listen. Mostly music scholars would play and study it.
People pretty much didn't know about Bachs existence until Mendelssohn brought his music back to life in the 20th century, about 100 years after Bach had died, though composers in Europe always knew about Bach and studied his music with great interest. Now of course, who doesn't know about Bach. But do they really know about Bach?
Composers through all times have done that sort of thing. Plato disliked chromatic, improvised music that had no vocals. Plato thought certain music was morally destructive, while some other music was morally empowering. So he wanted to censor certain types of music. At least to keep it from young people hear it who were destined to become soldiers or leaders. They were playing "jazz" already in Ancient Greece, and Plato hated it. He is many ways the first fundamentalist. His ideas are not too far from any totalitarian idea-based movement.
I get a little uncomfortable sometimes when talking about art. People can have a very sort of romantic idea about it. They talk about artists as if they don't really exist. The artist is so elevated that a "normal" person can't even begin to comprehend the mysteries of the artist mind. This is not a too uncommon belief among the artists them selves, which kind of makes the situation worse. I think it is only one stone throw away from religion, which in a way, any belief can be. Wagner met with his fellow Bruckner once, and they went to pray at Wagners grave (he had already had it built for himself).
Beethovens idea of making music for the masses was kind of revolutionary. Now, making music for the masses is kind of selling out. But, what has changed? Not music. Not the artist. Society, maybe. The relationship between the art and society.
I'm not much for commercial music, or anything commercial. But I'm not really against it either. I'm not going to decide for anyone else. I'll leave that to Plato Co.
-Ailo
On Sun, 13 Jun 2010, patko wrote:
----- "Mathieu Bouchard" matju@artengine.ca a écrit :
or Psychic TV,
I didn't know they made industrial music. Do they ? All I have from them is acid house and satanic funk.
You should listen to older albums, like "Gondole".
most probably... the oldest album I have is a "Live at thee circus" vinyl. Actually, I have another earlier track on the "If you can't please yourself, you can't please your soul" vinyl, and that track has a bit of industrial feel to it, but it's atypically quiet, so I didn't know how to classify it, and the "live version" of it that I found sounds like a totally different song in a different style.
You only know art that has survived through the ages, and obviously those political controllers has certainly destroyed all the art that doesn't follow their own set of rules, for example, in France most of Celtic monuments has been replaced by catholic monuments.
right.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
----- "Mathieu Bouchard" matju@artengine.ca a écrit :
On Sun, 13 Jun 2010, patko wrote:
----- "Mathieu Bouchard" matju@artengine.ca a écrit :
or Psychic TV,
I didn't know they made industrial music. Do they ? All I have
from
them is acid house and satanic funk.
You should listen to older albums, like "Gondole".
most probably... the oldest album I have is a "Live at thee circus" vinyl. Actually, I have another earlier track on the "If you can't please yourself, you can't please your soul" vinyl, and that track has a bit of industrial feel to it, but it's atypically quiet, so I didn't know how to classify it, and the "live version" of it that I found sounds like a totally different song in a different style.
It would have been more appropriated to speak about Throbbing Gristles instead like sevy suggested, if you don't feel that PTV doesn't deserve the second citation of wikipedia, it's up to you to modify it, ;)
opreg
Patrice Colet
----- "patko" colet.patrice@free.fr a écrit :
----- "Mathieu Bouchard" matju@artengine.ca a écrit :
classify it, and the "live version" of it that I found sounds like a totally different song in a different style.
It would have been more appropriated to speak about Throbbing Gristles instead like sevy suggested, if you don't feel that PTV doesn't deserve the second citation of wikipedia, it's up to you to modify it, ;)
forget this I've mistaken an article
Patrice Colet
-
ailo -
Jonathan Wilkes -
Mathieu Bouchard -
patko