I forgot to add, I think there are very few people on this list who
are deliberately trying to exclude people. There are a wide range of
cultures involved in this list, and some things that are not a big
deal in some places are quite offensive in others. And email is
never a good medium for communicating subtleties, like tongue-in-
cheek, sarcasm, etc.
So in the hopes of sharing Pd, I hope we can keep that in mind when
posting. I know I learned a lesson when I said "hey guys" on this
list in the past. In California (where I grew up), men and women,
feminists and not, commonly use "hey guys" to mean all people, not
just males. Others read that as "hey men", which is certainly not
what I meant to say...
.hc
On Oct 17, 2007, at 10:27 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
You absolutely have a valid opinion, its' good to hear it on this
list. Now it seems that this thread is actually getting
somewhere. I had decided to ignore it, so I didn't realize the
depths it had fallen to.I also have a strong distaste for the "gang bang" talk and macho
programming. It seems that computer music is one of the last
bastions of male dominance, I mean even most Linux events are at
least 20% female, not so in the computer music world. As someone
who was raised by a strong feminist, I have always wondered what I
could do to change that. So far I haven't found an answer, but I
am always open to suggestions.It does seem that the macho geek culture is a common complaint. A
friend of mine started college in the Mechanical Engineering
department since she'd always wanted to make things. She was one
of few women in the department, and was constantly challenged and
mocked because she was a woman. Needless to say, she changed
departments, but still wishes she was a mechanical engineer.
Sadly, I think that such things happen with Pd a lot as well..hc
On Oct 17, 2007, at 3:34 AM, Alicia Byer wrote:
Hi everybody,
Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I don't appreciate being called "girl" either, I'm in my mid-twenties also. And I agree with Darsh and Alejandra. The kind of terms and attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make
me not want to join in any discussions. It seems designed to keep me out.
It's just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be
a real "jock" programmer, and everything had to be so macho all the time. I guess it's just "male bonding" but it's excluding others that want to learn. I am just sick of this attitude from some guys that women
can't be real composers, musicians, programmers, whatever. I mean.. It's 2007!!! Not the stone age.Anyway, thanks everybody.
-Alicia
pueblo@mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
hey ho
hi roman
let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread
in a dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered
through very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at
all to the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming
to a point.thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic
of sexism which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there.
gender, we keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance.for example this http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html
If I remember well Matju was also molested by this. to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a deeper degree in the conversation. It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough it was
followed by a funny advertisementlike max msp thread)I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to
mention some practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self
employed and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are
not 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of
technology in our work with sensors, diy, electronica, computer music, web programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to
answer it!.I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last
problem was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that
thread until the end ;)since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so
serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously couldn't be established.
i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I
wanted to propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile, argentina, ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high mountains)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicha
and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total
discredit, is not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not
equal and we face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas
of the world. So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is
related to this. and some feminist from the south are excellent, in case you would
like some good internet radiohttp://nueva.radionumerocritico.cl/news.php
I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any
particular complaint against this list although I can remember some situations outside the list:
- once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an
external, ah yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well
Yves can do that you don't have to do that.-once a pd friend which I wanted to talk to said ah! you are the
visual artist that works with Yves. that was ok but there is this
prejudice that women doing pd do visuals. Ah no, I make noise.-once a pd friend didn't include me in the logs of a pd irc chat
meeting (!)-once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't
do sound because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of
visualsbut many other times I have also been -very encouraged by people
that participate a lot in the list and in pd meetings and pd projects
to keep on learning and feel more confident in my autonomy towards media.it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but
yes that would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and
ask around why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces.Alejandra
On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 19:38 +0200, pueblo@mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
yves, I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you
describe(maybe
you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :))
hi David and all, I don't know if you didn't follow some threads but here are some examples of greasy jokes:
yo, i am glad, that you bring some realworld cases up. i think,
this could be a basis for a real discussion.From: João Miguel Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com Date: Tue, October 9, 2007 1:29 pm
- do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a
lightbulb? 2: One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k. [I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least
it's a humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last
weeks]i don't know, how obvious this was, but i am pretty sure, that
in the first place it wasn't jmmmp's intention to make bad jokes, that
insult feminists. i would rather say, that he, as probably some others,
felt, that this discussion was going to nowhere and probably wanted to provocate a discussion by bringing up the most stupid macho joke
(or whatever this should be called) he could think of. obviously he succeeded. i wouldn't count that as an example of chauvinism in the list, since it seems, that it was triggered by the topic
'sexism' in order to question the ongoing discussion.accusing him of chauvinism would be too simple in that case,
though i do not approve sending such sentences to a public mailing list,
regardless of the intention.I really didn't want to post another OT but to be blind about
the facts is just a bit too much for me to keep silent.i think, the whole community would agree, that whatever is
troubling someone in a serious manner, it should be brought up here.roman
Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen
Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
kill your television
Access to computers should be unlimited and total. - the hacker ethic
I propose another Topic, the PoorDeveloppement of PD :P :D
About this offtopic: please, no sexism, no racism, no specism, that's all
2007/10/17, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@eds.org:
I forgot to add, I think there are very few people on this list who are deliberately trying to exclude people. There are a wide range of cultures involved in this list, and some things that are not a big deal in some places are quite offensive in others. And email is never a good medium for communicating subtleties, like tongue-in-cheek, sarcasm, etc.
So in the hopes of sharing Pd, I hope we can keep that in mind when posting. I know I learned a lesson when I said "hey guys" on this list in the past. In California (where I grew up), men and women, feminists and not, commonly use "hey guys" to mean all people, not just males. Others read that as "hey men", which is certainly not what I meant to say...
.hc
On Oct 17, 2007, at 10:27 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
You absolutely have a valid opinion, its' good to hear it on this list. Now it seems that this thread is actually getting somewhere. I had decided to ignore it, so I didn't realize the depths it had fallen to.
I also have a strong distaste for the "gang bang" talk and macho programming. It seems that computer music is one of the last bastions of male dominance, I mean even most Linux events are at least 20% female, not so in the computer music world. As someone who was raised by a strong feminist, I have always wondered what I could do to change that. So far I haven't found an answer, but I am always open to suggestions.
It does seem that the macho geek culture is a common complaint. A friend of mine started college in the Mechanical Engineering department since she'd always wanted to make things. She was one of few women in the department, and was constantly challenged and mocked because she was a woman. Needless to say, she changed departments, but still wishes she was a mechanical engineer. Sadly, I think that such things happen with Pd a lot as well.
.hc
On Oct 17, 2007, at 3:34 AM, Alicia Byer wrote:
Hi everybody,
Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I don't appreciate being called "girl" either, I'm in my mid-twenties also. And I agree with Darsh and Alejandra. The kind of terms and attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make me not want to join in any discussions. It seems designed to keep me out. It's just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be a real "jock" programmer, and everything had to be so macho all the time. I guess it's just "male bonding" but it's excluding others that want to learn. I am just sick of this attitude from some guys that women can't be real composers, musicians, programmers, whatever. I mean.. It's 2007!!! Not the stone age.
Anyway, thanks everybody.
-Alicia
pueblo@mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
hey ho
hi roman
let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered through very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at all to the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a point.
thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic of sexism which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there. gender, we keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance.
for example this http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html
If I remember well Matju was also molested by this. to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a deeper degree in the conversation. It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough it was followed by a funny advertisementlike max msp thread)
I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to mention some practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self employed and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of technology in our work with sensors, diy, electronica, computer music, web programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to answer it!.
I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last problem was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that thread until the end ;)
since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so
serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously couldn't be established.
i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I wanted to propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile, argentina, ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high mountains)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicha
and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total discredit, is not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal and we face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas of the world. So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to this. and some feminist from the south are excellent, in case you would like some good internet radio
http://nueva.radionumerocritico.cl/news.php
I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any particular complaint against this list although I can remember some situations outside the list:
- once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an external, ah
yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well Yves can do that you don't have to do that.
-once a pd friend which I wanted to talk to said ah! you are the visual artist that works with Yves. that was ok but there is this prejudice that women doing pd do visuals. Ah no, I make noise.
-once a pd friend didn't include me in the logs of a pd irc chat meeting (!)
-once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals
but many other times I have also been -very encouraged by people that participate a lot in the list and in pd meetings and pd projects to keep on learning and feel more confident in my autonomy towards media.
it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but yes that would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and ask around why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces.
Alejandra
On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 19:38 +0200, pueblo@mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
yves, I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you describe
(maybe
you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :))
hi David and all, I don't know if you didn't follow some threads but here are some examples of greasy jokes:
yo, i am glad, that you bring some realworld cases up. i think, this could be a basis for a real discussion.
From: João Miguel Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com Date: Tue, October 9, 2007 1:29 pm
- do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a lightbulb? 2:
One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k. [I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least it's a humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last weeks]
i don't know, how obvious this was, but i am pretty sure, that in the first place it wasn't jmmmp's intention to make bad jokes, that insult feminists. i would rather say, that he, as probably some others, felt, that this discussion was going to nowhere and probably wanted to provocate a discussion by bringing up the most stupid macho joke (or whatever this should be called) he could think of. obviously he succeeded. i wouldn't count that as an example of chauvinism in the list, since it seems, that it was triggered by the topic 'sexism' in order to question the ongoing discussion.
accusing him of chauvinism would be too simple in that case, though i do not approve sending such sentences to a public mailing list, regardless of the intention.
I really didn't want to post another OT but to be blind about the facts is just a bit too much for me to keep silent.
i think, the whole community would agree, that whatever is troubling someone in a serious manner, it should be brought up here.
roman
Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
kill your television
Access to computers should be unlimited and total. - the hacker ethic
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
So in the hopes of sharing Pd, I hope we can keep that in mind when posting. I know I learned a lesson when I said "hey guys" on this list in the past. In California (where I grew up), men and women, feminists and not, commonly use "hey guys" to mean all people, not just males. Others read that as "hey men", which is certainly not what I meant to say...
In English you have it easy.
In French there are the feminists who want profession names be gender-specific like "programmeur" vs "programmeuse", because making it only "programmeur" would imply inherent maleness, and there are those who want it to be always written like "programmeur" because having two different forms emphasises gender instead of hiding it.
(I believe that this divide is geographical, with Atlantic being the dividing "line", but I'm not sure)
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal QC Canada
-
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
Mathieu Bouchard -
Vircy Parker