I propose another Topic, the PoorDeveloppement of PD   :P :D
 
About this offtopic: please, no sexism, no racism, no specism, that's all





2007/10/17, Hans-Christoph Steiner < hans@eds.org>:

I forgot to add, I think there are very few people on this list who are deliberately trying to exclude people.  There are a wide range of cultures involved in this list, and some things that are not a big deal in some places are quite offensive in others.   And email is never a good medium for communicating subtleties, like tongue-in-cheek, sarcasm, etc.

So in the hopes of sharing Pd, I hope we can keep that in mind when posting.   I know I learned a lesson when I said "hey guys" on this list in the past.  In California (where I grew up), men and women, feminists and not, commonly use "hey guys" to mean all people, not just males.   Others read that as "hey men", which is certainly not what I meant to say...

.hc


On Oct 17, 2007, at 10:27 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:


You absolutely have a valid opinion, its' good to hear it on this list.  Now it seems that this thread is actually getting somewhere.   I had decided to ignore it, so I didn't realize the depths it had fallen to.

I also have a strong distaste for the "gang bang" talk and macho programming. It seems that computer music is one of the last bastions of male dominance, I mean even most Linux events are at least 20% female, not so in the computer music world.   As someone who was raised by a strong feminist, I have always wondered what I could do to change that.  So far I haven't found an answer, but I am always open to suggestions.

It does seem that the macho geek culture is a common complaint.  A friend of mine started college in the Mechanical Engineering department since she'd always wanted to make things.   She was one of few women in the department, and was constantly challenged and mocked because she was a woman.  Needless to say, she changed departments, but still wishes she was a mechanical engineer.   Sadly, I think that such things happen with Pd a lot as well.

.hc

On Oct 17, 2007, at 3:34 AM, Alicia Byer wrote:

Hi everybody,

Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I
don't appreciate being called "girl" either, I'm in my mid-twenties
also. And I agree with Darsh and Alejandra. The kind of terms and
attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make me not
want to join in any discussions. It seems designed to keep me out. It's
just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two
women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be a real
"jock" programmer, and everything had to be so macho all the time. I
guess it's just "male bonding" but it's excluding others that want to
learn. I am just sick of this attitude from some guys that women can't
be real composers, musicians, programmers, whatever. I mean.. It's
2007!!! Not the stone age.

Anyway, thanks everybody.

-Alicia

hey ho


hi roman


let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a
dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered through
very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at all to
the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a
point.


thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic of sexism
which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there. gender, we
keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance.

for example this

If I remember well Matju was also molested by this.
to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a
deeper degree in the conversation.
It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough   it was followed by a
funny advertisementlike max msp thread)

I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in
Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to mention some
practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women
that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self employed
and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not
'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of technology in
our work with sensors, diy, electronica,  computer music, web
programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to answer it!.

I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last problem
was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that thread until
the end ;)

 since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so

serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously
couldn't be established.


i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I wanted to
propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile,
argentina,  ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high
mountains)


and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total discredit, is
not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal and we
face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas of the
world. So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to
this.
and some feminist from the south are excellent, in case you would like
some good internet radio


I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any particular
complaint against this list although I can remember some situations
outside the list:

- once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an external, ah
yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well Yves can do
that  you don't have to do that.

-once a pd friend which I wanted to talk to said ah! you are the visual
artist that works with Yves. that was ok but there is this prejudice that
women doing pd do visuals. Ah no, I make noise.

-once a pd friend didn't include me in the logs of a pd irc chat meeting (!)

-once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound
because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals

but many other times I have also been -very encouraged by people that
participate a lot in the list and in pd meetings and pd projects to keep
on learning and feel more confident in my autonomy towards media.

it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but yes that
would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and ask around
why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces.


Alejandra




On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 19:38 +0200, pueblo@mail.ljudmila.org wrote:

yves,
I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you describe

(maybe

you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :))

hi David and all,
I don't know if you didn't follow some threads but here are some
examples
of greasy jokes:

yo, i am glad, that you bring some realworld cases up. i think, this
could be a basis for a real discussion.


From:   João Miguel Pais <jmmmpais@googlemail.com >
Date:   Tue, October 9, 2007 1:29 pm

- do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a lightbulb? 2:
One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k.
[I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least it's a
humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last weeks]

i don't know, how obvious this was, but i am pretty sure, that in the
first place it wasn't jmmmp's intention to make bad jokes, that insult
feminists. i would rather say, that he, as probably some others, felt,
that this discussion was going to nowhere and probably wanted to
provocate a discussion by bringing up the most stupid macho joke (or
whatever this should be called) he could think of. obviously he
succeeded. i wouldn't count that as an example of chauvinism in the
list, since it seems, that it was triggered by the topic 'sexism' in
order to question the ongoing discussion.

accusing him of chauvinism would be too simple in that case, though i do
not approve sending such sentences to a public mailing list, regardless
of the intention.


I really didn't want to post another OT but to be blind about the facts
is
just a bit too much for me to keep silent.

i think, the whole community would agree, that whatever is troubling
someone in a serious manner, it should be brought up here.

roman





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