ola,
i'm sorry to be boring on this list, but here i read everyday terms as : 'wet dream', 'gang bang' , ..
and i understand why some girls stay away from this list
sorry, i'm chocked sometimes, by the 'between men' macho jokes... even me.
sevy
ydegoyon@free.fr wrote:
ola,
i'm sorry to be boring on this list, but here i read everyday terms as : 'wet dream', 'gang bang' , ..
and i understand why some girls stay away from this list
sorry, i'm chocked sometimes, by the 'between men' macho jokes... even me.
sevy
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
just to cite someone:
"that's how we speak in the streets man so watch out when you go out )
sevy" (03.10.2007//21:36 GMT+1)
and in reply:
"sorry, i should have said here 'suck one of them dick', is that polite enough? [...]
ya basta, sevy" (03.10.2007//04:39 GMT+1)
blimpish drivel is sooo 90s, punk.
On Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 02:07:27AM +0200, Niklas Kl??gel wrote:
ydegoyon@free.fr wrote:
ola,
i'm sorry to be boring on this list, but here i read everyday terms as : 'wet dream', 'gang bang' , ..
and i understand why some girls stay away from this list
sorry, i'm chocked sometimes, by the 'between men' macho jokes... even me.
sevy
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
just to cite someone:
"that's how we speak in the streets man so watch out when you go out )
sevy" (03.10.2007//21:36 GMT+1)
and in reply:
"sorry, i should have said here 'suck one of them dick', is that polite enough? [...]
ya basta, sevy" (03.10.2007//04:39 GMT+1)
blimpish drivel is sooo 90s, punk.
dont feed the braindead trolls!
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
cdr wrote:
On Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 02:07:27AM +0200, Niklas Kl??gel wrote:
ydegoyon@free.fr wrote:
ola,
i'm sorry to be boring on this list, but here i read everyday terms as : 'wet dream', 'gang bang' , ..
and i understand why some girls stay away from this list
sorry, i'm chocked sometimes, by the 'between men' macho jokes... even me.
sevy
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
just to cite someone:
"that's how we speak in the streets man so watch out when you go out )
sevy" (03.10.2007//21:36 GMT+1)
and in reply:
"sorry, i should have said here 'suck one of them dick', is that polite enough? [...]
err, sorry, that was precisely an anti-macho curators statement do you make another point ? ( or stay as stupid as you sound ) ?
sevy
ola,
dont feed the braindead trolls!
i think you should at least sign your very uninteresting remarks, and not with an internet nickname like 'carmen', when it's a boy who is writing ( if i don't get confused )
sevy
ps: btw, we are here in 'Le Hangar' again, for a workshop on FLOSS sound and it's a mixed audience ( like 70-30 % ), so i don't see why it doesn't reflect on the lists..
On 10/8/07, Yves Degoyon ydegoyon@free.fr wrote:
ola,
dont feed the braindead trolls!
i think you should at least sign your very uninteresting remarks, and not with an internet nickname like 'carmen', when it's a boy who is writing
This is absolutely trollspeak.
( if i don't get confused )
sevy
ps: btw, we are here in 'Le Hangar' again, for a workshop on FLOSS sound and it's a mixed audience ( like 70-30 % ), so i don't see why it doesn't reflect on the lists..
How do you know it doesn't reflect on this list? And more importantly, who cares if it does? I already pointed out that one of the terms you claimed to see here every day has not been typed once since I've been subscribed, which is a few years. You are trolling.
-Chuckk
How do you know it doesn't reflect on this list? And more importantly, who cares if it does?
I think sexism is a subject that should be dealt with here on the pd-list. And I think that the many replies here show that people on the list do in fact care about it.
Allow me to try to condense the issue, as I see it, a bit: 1st: The pd-list is an all-inclusive public forum. 2nd: Sexist, racist, homophobic or otherwise derrogatory remarks detract from the inclusiveness and usefulness of the forum. 3rd: Slang does need some disambiguation to avoid creating the perception of bias and insider/outsider differences. 4th: The language of our discussion should try to positively change people's minds about how to use the forum, rather than confront them as individuals. i.e. inflammatory, offensive, argumentative posts on topic--not so helpful
just to precede any comments that I'm being preachy: No, I don't think I'm better than other people just because I haven't said anything insensitive--lately. I think many people on the list have made valid points and I support them. I am sometimes offended by comments on the list, that I don't say anything about them. And in fact, I don't think that we collectively or individually should do anything about it. I have faith that the list is used with the best of intentions, or at least, a sense of humor. But I would suggest that people choose language that avoids bias and the perception of bias.
Chuck
On 10/7/07, ydegoyon@free.fr ydegoyon@free.fr wrote:
ola,
i'm sorry to be boring on this list, but here i read everyday terms as : 'wet dream', 'gang bang' , ..
and i understand why some girls stay away from this list
Understandable, but that's not sexism. And I have heard these terms from the mouths of women many, many times.
-Chuckk
Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
On 10/7/07, ydegoyon@free.fr ydegoyon@free.fr wrote:
ola,
i'm sorry to be boring on this list, but here i read everyday terms as : 'wet dream', 'gang bang' , ..
and i understand why some girls stay away from this list
Understandable, but that's not sexism. And I have heard these terms from the mouths of women many, many times.
Wet dream can also relate to the dreams of water on Dune by Paul Atreides and gang bang can mean [t b b b b b b]
SCNR, Thomas
Thomas Mayer wrote:
Understandable, but that's not sexism. And I have heard these terms from the mouths of women many, many times.
how does the fact that a group of people uses certain phrases prove that these phrases are not symptoms (or means) of oppression of this very group?
Wet dream can also relate to the dreams of water on Dune by Paul Atreides and gang bang can mean [t b b b b b b]
indeed this is possible. these phrases could also be not english at all and mean something like "bubo bubo" and "forgive".
mfg.asdr IOhannes
On 10/8/07, IOhannes m zmoelnig zmoelnig@iem.at wrote:
Thomas Mayer wrote:
Understandable, but that's not sexism. And I have heard these terms from the mouths of women many, many times.
how does the fact that a group of people uses certain phrases prove that these phrases are not symptoms (or means) of oppression of this very group?
Did I say anything about proving something?
The fact that using those two particular phrases is not sexism is evident by the meanings of the phrases and the definition of sexism. Only one of the phrases mentioned makes any differentiation between the sexes, and it describes a solitary act irrelevant to any relationship between the sexes. If there is sexism on this mailing list, it isn't evidenced by the presence of those two phrases.
Pointing out that many women use those phrases was a response to the supposition that those phrases explain the absence of women from this mailing list. It was not intended to support the statement that the use of these phrases is not sexism; that much should be self-evident. I would not try to prove something using anecdotal observations.
I'm surprised anyone would think there's sexism on this list. I don't even know what sex most of the posters are. I've never seen the subject of sex or gender come up before.
-Chuckk
Wet dream can also relate to the dreams of water on Dune by Paul Atreides and gang bang can mean [t b b b b b b]
indeed this is possible. these phrases could also be not english at all and mean something like "bubo bubo" and "forgive".
mfg.asdr IOhannes
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Addendum - a quick Gmail search turned up one use of "gang bang" which was quoted in response a few times; it was in the thread "[Pd] pd-competition?". I'm not exactly sure what it was referring to. I suspect it was a play on the word 'bang'.
Another quick Gmail search turned up one use of "wet dream", but now that I look that was actually in the Nosi-discussion list. It was, coincidentally, a comment made by a woman, one of the most active people in NOSI.
All I can guess is that this thread was started as a troll, or perhaps accidentally posted to the wrong list.
-Chuckk
On 10/8/07, IOhannes m zmoelnig zmoelnig@iem.at wrote:
Thomas Mayer wrote:
Understandable, but that's not sexism. And I have heard these terms from the mouths of women many, many times.
how does the fact that a group of people uses certain phrases prove that these phrases are not symptoms (or means) of oppression of this very group?
Wet dream can also relate to the dreams of water on Dune by Paul Atreides and gang bang can mean [t b b b b b b]
indeed this is possible. these phrases could also be not english at all and mean something like "bubo bubo" and "forgive".
mfg.asdr IOhannes
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Hallo, Chuckk Hubbard hat gesagt: // Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
Addendum - a quick Gmail search turned up one use of "gang bang" which was quoted in response a few times; it was in the thread "[Pd] pd-competition?". I'm not exactly sure what it was referring to. I suspect it was a play on the word 'bang'.
Gang Bang has multiple meanings. Besides the vulgar one (which seems to be the only one, the all knowing Wikipedia knows about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_bang_%28disambiguation%29 ) there also is a meaning in hacker slang, which is what the pd competition was alluding to.
Quoting the Jargon file entry:
gang bang:
The use of large numbers of loosely coupled programmers in an attempt to wedge a great many features into a product in a short time. Though there have been memorable gang bangs (e.g., that over-the-weekend assembler port mentioned in Steven Levy's Hackers), and large numbers of loosely-coupled programmers operating in bazaar mode can do very useful work when they're not on a deadline, most are perpetrated by large companies trying to meet unrealistic deadlines; the inevitable result is enormous buggy masses of code entirely lacking in orthogonality. When market-driven managers make a list of all the features the competition has and assign one programmer to implement each, the probability of maintaining a coherent (or even functional) design goes to epsilon. See also firefighting, Mongolian Hordes technique, Conway's Law.
Of course, hacker slang can be sexist as well, even racist if you look at the term " Mongolian Hordes technique" above. But well, that's slang, one wouldn't use it in church.
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Of course, hacker slang can be sexist as well, even racist if you look at the term " Mongolian Hordes technique" above.
If only you had had those real Mongolian hordes rushing towards you at the appropriate time in history, you would understand...
There's a difference between being sensitive to racism and dismissing history.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal QC Canada
ATTENTION ARTISTS.
CALL FOR WORK
"Prospective new media collective"* in NYC is asking prospective
programmers to help design software for Pure Data/GEM
We are in desperate need of implementations of the following objects:
[fistfuck] [asstoass] [asstomouth] [gagger] [dp] [bukakke] [orgy] [GEM_Camwhore]
Fellowships to be considered with application.
** yes I am like a 12 year old.
But seriously, this thread was half amusing and half exasperating.
heres adding to the noise.
On Oct 8, 2007, at 12:41 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Of course, hacker slang can be sexist as well, even racist if you
look at the term " Mongolian Hordes technique" above.If only you had had those real Mongolian hordes rushing towards you
at the appropriate time in history, you would understand...There's a difference between being sensitive to racism and
dismissing history._ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal QC
Canada_______________________________________________ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
v a d e //
www.vade.info abstrakt.vade.info
On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, vade wrote:
On Oct 8, 2007, at 12:41 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
There's a difference between being sensitive to racism and dismissing history.
We are in desperate need of implementations of the following objects: [fistfuck]
[...]
But seriously, this thread was half amusing and half exasperating. heres adding to the noise.
The mail you replied to is about a serious issue.
I have not deserved your random garbage.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal QC Canada
On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 12:41:22PM -0400, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Of course, hacker slang can be sexist as well, even racist if you look at the term " Mongolian Hordes technique" above.
If only you had had those real Mongolian hordes rushing towards you at the appropriate time in history, you would understand...
There's a difference between being sensitive to racism and dismissing history.
I wonder why we don't refer to the european hordes rushing into countless continents, slaughtering and raping the local peoples for the last few hundred years? There is a difference between dismissing history and selective memory.
Best,
Chris.
Because the Mongolians did it so much better as to be noteworthy? And
dont forget the Vikings, we were pretty legendary. Then the damn
Christians tamed us.
But im also an American citizen (my mother is Scandinavian), so you
have my explicit permission to speak of the current American Hordes,
should you need to specify any group of people with a
"horde"/"Invasion"/"rape"/"torture" analogy, or if you are feeling a
bit reminiscent, to use viking rather than mongolian, you will at
least offend n-1 people on the PD list.
Thanks,
On Oct 8, 2007, at 10:40 PM, Chris McCormick wrote:
On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 12:41:22PM -0400, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Of course, hacker slang can be sexist as well, even racist if you
look at the term " Mongolian Hordes technique" above.If only you had had those real Mongolian hordes rushing towards
you at the appropriate time in history, you would understand...There's a difference between being sensitive to racism and dismissing history.
I wonder why we don't refer to the european hordes rushing into
countless continents, slaughtering and raping the local peoples for the last few hundred years? There is a difference between dismissing history and selective memory.Best,
Chris.
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
v a d e //
www.vade.info abstrakt.vade.info
On Tue, Oct 09, 2007 at 12:51:14AM -0400, vade wrote:
Because the Mongolians did it so much better as to be noteworthy?
It depends what you mean by 'better'. For example, the British Empire covered more land than the Mongolian Empire ever did, and that's just one arm of the European invasion of the rest of the world. The British Empire also ruled over far more people; roughly one quater of the world's entire population at the beginning of the 20th century.
If by 'better' you mean "more ruthless" then you need to read more history. First hand accounts by the Spanish invaders into parts of South America brag unashamedly about deceiving and slaughtering the local peoples. Slave ships (I don't need to say any more on that one). The way in which the Aboriginal people of Australia, Canada, and the USA were treated by the first settlers in these places. The list is very long. There is a lot more debate about how civil the ancient Mongolians were than there is about how the later Europeans treated the people they invaded, possibly because Europeans kept better written records, whilst the records of Mongolian invasion were all kept by people who were being invaded.
As with all history, it's very complicated, but my point is that we only refer to the "Mongolian hordes" because we are biased towards a pro-western way of thinking. That is most definately ignorant, and probably racist.
Best,
Chris.
And
dont forget the Vikings, we were pretty legendary. Then the damn
Christians tamed us.But im also an American citizen (my mother is Scandinavian), so you
have my explicit permission to speak of the current American Hordes,
should you need to specify any group of people with a
"horde"/"Invasion"/"rape"/"torture" analogy, or if you are feeling a
bit reminiscent, to use viking rather than mongolian, you will at
least offend n-1 people on the PD list.Thanks,
On Oct 8, 2007, at 10:40 PM, Chris McCormick wrote:
On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 12:41:22PM -0400, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Of course, hacker slang can be sexist as well, even racist if you
look at the term " Mongolian Hordes technique" above.If only you had had those real Mongolian hordes rushing towards
you at the appropriate time in history, you would understand...There's a difference between being sensitive to racism and dismissing history.
I wonder why we don't refer to the european hordes rushing into
countless continents, slaughtering and raping the local peoples for the last few hundred years? There is a difference between dismissing history and selective memory.Best,
Chris.
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
v a d e //
www.vade.info abstrakt.vade.info
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 00:18:10 -0400 Chris McCormick chris@mccormick.cx wrote:
For example, the British Empire covered more land than the Mongolian Empire ever did
Yeah Bitches!
....
... what? :)
On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, Chris McCormick wrote:
On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 12:41:22PM -0400, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
There's a difference between being sensitive to racism and dismissing history.
I wonder why we don't refer to the european hordes rushing into countless continents, slaughtering and raping the local peoples for the last few hundred years? There is a difference between dismissing history and selective memory.
Just because we don't mention it *here*, doesn't mean we don't know it or want to forget it. We don't have quotas of representation of historical facts on pd-list. If you want to balance the representation of historical facts on pd-list, do your own share if you will, but pd-list has no such duty.
Now, while you're back into that topic, can you point to me the reasons why Canada refused to sign the last treaty about natives? You seemed to assume that if Canada had not signed it, it had to be for the worst of reasons, but have you actually read about the reasons?
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal QC Canada
On Tue, Oct 09, 2007 at 11:26:59AM -0400, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, Chris McCormick wrote:
On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 12:41:22PM -0400, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
There's a difference between being sensitive to racism and dismissing history.
I wonder why we don't refer to the european hordes rushing into countless continents, slaughtering and raping the local peoples for the last few hundred years? There is a difference between dismissing history and selective memory.
Just because we don't mention it *here*, doesn't mean we don't know it or want to forget it. We don't have quotas of representation of historical facts on pd-list. If you want to balance the representation of historical facts on pd-list, do your own share if you will, but pd-list has no such duty.
Yeah of course, but Frank was not talking about the pd-list. He was referring to a phrase in the Jargon File. I am not asking people on the pd-list to be more sensitive or to enforce 'quotas of representation'. It's a free world; people can say whatever they like and use whatever phrases they like. What I am saying is that your statement that we shouldn't "dismiss history", implying that the phrase "Mongolian hordes" represents a historically valid viewpoint is perpetuating a western-biased (racist) falsehood.
There is strong debate about whether the Mongolians were "uncivilised" and how ruthless they were. To illustrate this point, consider that in many cases recorded by the people being invaded they treated people much better by comparison than European invaders, who recorded their invasions themselves. To use the phrase "Mongolian hordes" is to reinforce a factually incorrect racist cultural stereotype. It is to imply that other people invading are "hordes" whilst when western people invade it's "progress". The mere fact that everyone knows what we're talking about when we say "mongolian hordes" whilst there is no similar widespread cliche for western invaders in our culture is testament to this fact.
Now, while you're back into that topic, can you point to me the reasons why Canada refused to sign the last treaty about natives?
No, not really. I am sure you can find more information about it on the net if you care to try. A search for 'UN indigenous rights' will yeild many results.
The Canadian government has traditionally strongly supported this UN action for indigenous people's rights, right up until the current government came into power.
"Unfortunately, the provisions in the Declaration on lands, territories and resources are overly broad, unclear, and capable of a wide variety of interpretations, discounting the need to recognize a range of rights over land and possibly putting into question matters that have been settled by treaty," -- Canada's UN Ambassador John McNee
You seemed to assume that if Canada had not signed it, it had to be for the worst of reasons,
Incorrect.
but have you actually read about the reasons?
A little. The conflict is similar to that in Australia. There are many sides and they usually concern the ownership of traditional lands:
the right to use their traditional lands.
agenda of environmental protection.
land in order to dig valuable things out of the ground and sell them on the global market. Unfortunately the remaining stocks of underground resources are often located under traditionally owned lands these days.
by sensationalist media headlines about indigenous land re-acquisition.
peoples and they don't want those treaties to be disturbed.
There are many sides to the argument but I think these are generally the issues.
Best,
Chris.
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Chris McCormick wrote:
implying that the phrase "Mongolian hordes" represents a historically valid viewpoint is perpetuating a western-biased (racist) falsehood.
"horde" is not a viewpoint. It's a noun. It means "political subdivision of a (central asian) nomadic people". It comes for Turkic "orda" meaning a Khan's residence.
The mere fact that everyone knows what we're talking about when we say "mongolian hordes"
If you use political correctness to get a word loaded with connotations to be replaced by a brand new word, the old connotations tend to be carried over to the new word. Thus those are not so much properties of a specific word, than a topic of public opinion. This is something that is best fixed by education and not by "dictionary engineering".
whilst there is no similar widespread cliche for western invaders in our culture is testament to this fact.
I believe that "colonialism" and "imperialism" are widespread words, concepts and clichés, that are loaded by several centuries of history.
A little. The conflict is similar to that in Australia. There are many sides and they usually concern the ownership of traditional lands:
You could add:
passive-aggressive government wants to make programme initiated by previous government look bad
fear that it legitimises (or opens a can of worms on) some completely unreasonable claims, such as ownership of areas that are no longer usable for traditional purposes and that may have already been compensated for in a previous treaty, ...
that's what I can think about. I'm not taking any side, because I don't know about the issues, I only listed some forces that I would guess tend to have a lot of influence on policy.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal QC Canada
On Wed, Oct 10, 2007 at 02:18:00AM -0400, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Chris McCormick wrote:
implying that the phrase "Mongolian hordes" represents a historically valid viewpoint is perpetuating a western-biased (racist) falsehood.
"horde" is not a viewpoint. It's a noun. It means "political subdivision of a (central asian) nomadic people". It comes for Turkic "orda" meaning a Khan's residence.
I stand corrected.
The mere fact that everyone knows what we're talking about when we say "mongolian hordes"
If you use political correctness to get a word loaded with connotations to be replaced by a brand new word, the old connotations tend to be carried over to the new word. Thus those are not so much properties of a specific word, than a topic of public opinion. This is something that is best fixed by education and not by "dictionary engineering".
I did not advocate "dictionary engineering".
Best,
Chris.
On 10/10/07, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Chris McCormick wrote:
whilst there is no similar widespread cliche for western invaders in our culture is testament to this fact.
I believe that "colonialism" and "imperialism" are widespread words, concepts and clichés, that are loaded by several centuries of history.
Absolutely. I'm not sure which culture is "our" culture, but in mine I have read and heard more bad about the white invaders than any others, especially Mongolians. The fact that Europeans were ever enslaved by Africans is almost completely gone from history books or general knowledge. The notion that Europeans savagely trampled a world full of peaceful, altruistic people throughout history seems to be pretty widespread. It also seems to me that hacker culture uses lots of terms tongue-in-cheek, and that a reference to Mongolian hordes may even be, in some folks' minds, a jab at the Westerners who coined the term. Americans today make ironic references to the "Axis of Evil" and the "war on terror" and "homeland security" all the time. It doesn't mean they buy it, even if the media makes it seem that way.
-Chuckk
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
I'm not sure which culture is "our" culture,
In this context, it would be all the west-european, canadian, australian, nz, usa, ... mostly that.
It also seems to me that hacker culture uses lots of terms tongue-in-cheek, and that a reference to Mongolian hordes may even be, in some folks' minds, a jab at the Westerners who coined the term.
Man. I just said. "Mongolian horde" is a term most likely coined by Mongolian hordes. The term has been adapted to fit many languages and eventually reached English.
Americans today make ironic references to the "Axis of Evil" and the "war on terror" and "homeland security" all the time. It doesn't mean they buy it, even if the media makes it seem that way.
Yeah but why do they still vote for one of the two big parties?
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal QC Canada
hey
On 10/10/07, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
Yeah but why do they still vote for one of the two big parties?
not all of us do!
there are still some of us on the lunatic fringe although you won't hear about any of it in the corporate media. and although the anti-war movement keeps growing the two big money political parties don't want to touch it [because the war is all about big money] ...
this country [usa] needs an enema! [or at least an impeachment]
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, john saylor wrote:
On 10/10/07, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
Yeah but why do they still vote for one of the two big parties?
not all of us do! there are still some of us on the lunatic fringe
No, I don't mean lunatic fringe. I mean especially parties that are not considered fringe and especially not lunatic.
In both Canada and Québec it's easy to get widespread coverage for the 3 top parties, and then 5 parties have at least 3% of the total vote each. But that's not an isolated case - Europe has had that for a long time too.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal QC Canada
Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
It also seems to me that hacker culture uses lots of terms tongue-in-cheek, and that a reference to Mongolian hordes may even be, in some folks' minds, a jab at the Westerners who coined the term.
Man. I just said. "Mongolian horde" is a term most likely coined by Mongolian hordes. The term has been adapted to fit many languages and eventually reached English.
Yes, 'nigger' is derived from a word meaning 'black', so where's the problem? Words change their meaning over time. I would bet most english speakers don't know the origin of 'horde' and just use it to denote 'a large number of unpleasant entities', as in 'hordes of cockroaches'. 'Barbarian' is another word that didn't mean anything bad at first...and 'windows' ;)
Martin
On 2007-10-10 16:53:33, "Martin Peach" martin.peach@sympatico.ca appears to have written:
'Barbarian' is another word that didn't mean anything bad at first...and 'windows' ;)
afaik, "barbarian" is derived from ancient Greek for "foreigner", a 'foreigner' being defined basically as 'someone who doesn't speek Greek', hence the term "barbarian", since all these folks could say (according to the originatal users of the word 'barbarian') was "ba ba ba ba ba"... i dunno about you folks, but i think that's a pretty heavy etymological load to carry; certainly heavier than "horde"...
marmosets, Bryan
Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
Americans today make ironic references to the "Axis of Evil" and the "war on terror" and "homeland security" all the time. It doesn't mean they buy it, even if the media makes it seem that way.
Yeah but why do they still vote for one of the two big parties?
why? I think because USamericans are fearful people. they are fearful, because they never learned to talk about their problematic history. genocide and slavery. they just inherit the guilty consciousness unprocessed from generation to generation. therefor they only feel safe, when they are protected by a big brother. they live with the idea of the survival of the fittest (make the rich richer). they never gave black people compensation for their exploitation (nor any other group). as a matter of fact this is not only US history, but western history in general, but european countries experienced worldwar II and I think they changed their way on communal thinking about racism and so on. there was some shift in common notion and also the wish to keep this notion alive. USamericans subconsciously still fear revenge. and even worse, some of them even think it is a good idea to have a small, rich, educated leading elite that controls the big majority of people. they propose a free market, which I see rather as a free slave market, because preconditions are not fair at all for all people. they try to oppress every effort of union building and their voting system is a "the winner takes it all". in europe it took green parties more than 20 years to make it into gouvernments. in the US this is not possible, because with anything less than 50% you are nothing. and of course the US has a media that is owned by a handful of people, and an education system including universities that aligns itself more to the needs of companies and corporations than to the values of life. that's why "they" still vote for one of the two big parties. with the fall of the dollar, the raise of china, some bank crashs, more and more unemployed people, no health care, no social security I think people will start to vote differently within the the next 10-20 years. marius.
wow, only a few pages before the inevitable usa bashing.
BORING.
last i checked the primary developer of pd was an american, yes?
---- marius schebella marius.schebella@gmail.com wrote:
Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
Americans today make ironic references to the "Axis of Evil" and the "war on terror" and "homeland security" all the time. It doesn't mean they buy it, even if the media makes it seem that way.
Yeah but why do they still vote for one of the two big parties?
why? I think because USamericans are fearful people. they are fearful, because they never learned to talk about their problematic history. genocide and slavery. they just inherit the guilty consciousness unprocessed from generation to generation. therefor they only feel safe, when they are protected by a big brother. they live with the idea of the survival of the fittest (make the rich richer). they never gave black people compensation for their exploitation (nor any other group). as a matter of fact this is not only US history, but western history in general, but european countries experienced worldwar II and I think they changed their way on communal thinking about racism and so on. there was some shift in common notion and also the wish to keep this notion alive. USamericans subconsciously still fear revenge. and even worse, some of them even think it is a good idea to have a small, rich, educated leading elite that controls the big majority of people. they propose a free market, which I see rather as a free slave market, because preconditions are not fair at all for all people. they try to oppress every effort of union building and their voting system is a "the winner takes it all". in europe it took green parties more than 20 years to make it into gouvernments. in the US this is not possible, because with anything less than 50% you are nothing. and of course the US has a media that is owned by a handful of people, and an education system including universities that aligns itself more to the needs of companies and corporations than to the values of life. that's why "they" still vote for one of the two big parties. with the fall of the dollar, the raise of china, some bank crashs, more and more unemployed people, no health care, no social security I think people will start to vote differently within the the next 10-20 years. marius.
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-- Patrick Pagano Sound and Light Technologist School of Theatre and Dance University of Florida
I'm from the states....i've spent a lot of time overseas....i find it hilarious that, on several different occasions, I've been in conversations with Europeans who would talk bad about the US....then, after talking shit for an hour, they always end the conversation with, "yeah, I'm going to the US in a couple of weeks"....if its so fucking bad why would you want to visit?
I often hear Europeans bitching about how fat and stupid the American culture is....well, every European country I've visited has had a McDonalds, and there is always line of people ready to feed their faces....don't blame the American culture....blame your citizens who keep the American companies in business....don't get me wrong, the American culture is FULL of ignorance....sure, we are idiots.....but who is worse: the Idiot, or the guy who follows the idiot?
I didn't vote for Bush...neither did half of the American voters...that's over 150 million United States citizens who didn't vote for Bush and his foreign policy (and domestic policies)...so please, don't lump everyone together....Make love not war!
:-)
peace
-----Original Message----- From: pd-list-bounces@iem.at [mailto:pd-list-bounces@iem.at] On Behalf Of bigswift@cox.net Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 7:43 PM To: pd-list@iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is BORING
wow, only a few pages before the inevitable usa bashing.
BORING.
last i checked the primary developer of pd was an american, yes?
---- marius schebella marius.schebella@gmail.com wrote:
Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
Americans today make ironic references to the "Axis of Evil" and
the
"war on terror" and "homeland security" all the time. It doesn't
mean
they buy it, even if the media makes it seem that way.
Yeah but why do they still vote for one of the two big parties?
why? I think because USamericans are fearful people. they are fearful,
because they never learned to talk about their problematic history. genocide and slavery. they just inherit the guilty consciousness unprocessed from generation to generation. therefor they only feel
safe,
when they are protected by a big brother. they live with the idea of
the
survival of the fittest (make the rich richer). they never gave black people compensation for their exploitation (nor any other group). as a
matter of fact this is not only US history, but western history in general, but european countries experienced worldwar II and I think
they
changed their way on communal thinking about racism and so on. there
was
some shift in common notion and also the wish to keep this notion
alive.
USamericans subconsciously still fear revenge. and even worse, some of
them even think it is a good idea to have a small, rich, educated leading elite that controls the big majority of people. they propose a
free market, which I see rather as a free slave market, because preconditions are not fair at all for all people. they try to oppress every effort of union building and their voting system is a "the
winner
takes it all". in europe it took green parties more than 20 years to make it into gouvernments. in the US this is not possible, because
with
anything less than 50% you are nothing. and of course the US has a media that is owned by a handful of people,
and an education system including universities that aligns itself more
to the needs of companies and corporations than to the values of life. that's why "they" still vote for one of the two big parties. with the fall of the dollar, the raise of china, some bank crashs,
more
and more unemployed people, no health care, no social security I think
people will start to vote differently within the the next 10-20 years. marius.
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http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- Patrick Pagano Sound and Light Technologist School of Theatre and Dance University of Florida
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
jared wrote:
....if its so fucking bad why would you want to visit?
Some people have the hope, the true situation would not be so depressing.
.....but who is worse: the Idiot, or the guy who follows the idiot?
except for romania, there are not so many countries in the world, who follow the US at the moment.
I didn't vote for Bush...neither did half of the American voters...that's over 150 million United States citizens who didn't vote for Bush
I am not sure, how you calculate this. because in 2000 50mio people voted for bush. which means 250mio citizens (including children and non-voters) did not. 51mio voters voted actively against bush, 249 mio citizens did not... (only 101mio people actively voted.) for years later (due to his successful policy...), 62mio voted for bush. marius.
jared wrote:
....if its so fucking bad why would you want to visit?
Some people have the hope, the true situation would not be so depressing.
Hope? Please. The conversations that I was talking about,
these people weren't talking about 'hope'...they were flat out trashing the American people and government...and being very angry about it...it was funny because they knew I was American and they seemed to be trying to upset me...they were surprised that, for the most part, I agreed with everything they said...i think some people forget that no one is more angry at the American government than the American people....did you happen to see or hear about the many marches and protests against Bush after he was elected? I was in Europe after Bush's second election and I didn't see or hear anything about the protests of the American people. The media outlets there seemed to be happy with portraying all US citizens as stupid idiots who were sheep in the Bush flock....god, for the most part, the media there is worse than it is here...and that is saying something...
.....but who is worse: the Idiot, or the guy who follows the idiot?
except for romania, there are not so many countries in the world, who follow the US at the moment.
Good news there....
I didn't vote for Bush...neither did half of the American voters...that's over 150 million United States citizens who didn't
vote
for Bush
I am not sure, how you calculate this. because in 2000 50mio people voted for bush. which means 250mio citizens (including children and non-voters) did not. 51mio voters voted actively against bush, 249 mio citizens did not... (only 101mio people actively voted.) for years later (due to his successful policy...), 62mio voted for bush. marius.
Okay, my numbers are wrong...but you get my point, don't you?
So, say, 51 million people voted AGAINST BUSH in 2000...51 million is nearly the total population of Italy, or France...My point is that 51 million is a lot of people to ignorantly lump into the Fat, American Cowboy Bush voter category.
peace
On 10/11/07, marius schebella marius.schebella@gmail.com wrote:
jared wrote:
....if its so fucking bad why would you want to visit?
Some people have the hope, the true situation would not be so depressing.
I think Europeans and Americans see American as bad in an abstract sense, in the sense of what it does to people who aren't there. All the more reason to go there. It's bad in the abstract, but pretty useful in the short term.
.....but who
is worse: the Idiot, or the guy who follows the idiot?
except for romania, there are not so many countries in the world, who follow the US at the moment.
Ouch! I just moved to Romania from the US... But I don't think the question is what the government of a country endorses, it's a question of the social attitude and the - all together now - opportunity. I suspect most non-Americans who go to the US do so hoping to benefit themselves, more than to enjoy the culture of the average citizens.
I didn't vote for Bush...neither did half of the American
voters...that's over 150 million United States citizens who didn't vote for Bush
I am not sure, how you calculate this. because in 2000 50mio people voted for bush. which means 250mio citizens (including children and non-voters) did not. 51mio voters voted actively against bush, 249 mio citizens did not... (only 101mio people actively voted.) for years later (due to his successful policy...), 62mio voted for bush. marius.
Yes, alas, there may be 300 million citizens, but far less eligible voters, and even less active voters. But perhaps the number who didn't vote present an even worse picture of American culture than the number who voted for Bush.
-Chuckk
As Roman already so eloquently suggested....
EVERYONE PLEASE STOP THIS NOW.
You're all adults enough that no one needs to get the last word in. I hope.
Thanks, derek
-- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 164: "Twist the spine"
Seems to me it's been a pretty civil discussion. Way off-topic, definitely, but not terribly aggressive. I don't understand telling people not to talk about something. Whether or not we are all adults, we are all capable of deciding for ourselves what we want to say and read.
-Chuckk
On 10/11/07, Derek Holzer derek@umatic.nl wrote:
As Roman already so eloquently suggested....
EVERYONE PLEASE STOP THIS NOW.
You're all adults enough that no one needs to get the last word in. I hope.
Thanks, derek
-- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 164: "Twist the spine"
I don't want to get dragged into this at all, I'm just asking that you take the discussion someplace else. The PD-OT list, for example. Or your favorite IRC channel, or whatever. This list really doesn't need to get clogged up with all this discussion about political correctness, or anything else that's totally unrelated to PD.
Thanks, d.
Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
Seems to me it's been a pretty civil discussion. Way off-topic, definitely, but not terribly aggressive. I don't understand telling people not to talk about something. Whether or not we are all adults, we are all capable of deciding for ourselves what we want to say and read.
-Chuckk
On 10/11/07, *Derek Holzer* <derek@umatic.nl mailto:derek@umatic.nl> wrote:
As Roman already so eloquently suggested.... EVERYONE PLEASE STOP THIS NOW. You're all adults enough that no one needs to get the last word in. I hope. Thanks, derek -- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 164: "Twist the spine"
-- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com
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On 10/10/07, marius schebella marius.schebella@gmail.com wrote:
Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
Americans today make ironic references to the "Axis of Evil" and the "war on terror" and "homeland security" all the time. It doesn't mean they buy it, even if the media makes it seem that way.
Yeah but why do they still vote for one of the two big parties?
why? I think because USamericans are fearful people. they are fearful, because they never learned to talk about their problematic history. genocide and slavery. they just inherit the guilty consciousness unprocessed from generation to generation. therefor they only feel safe, when they are protected by a big brother. they live with the idea of the survival of the fittest (make the rich richer). they never gave black people compensation for their exploitation (nor any other group). as a matter of fact this is not only US history, but western history in general, but european countries experienced worldwar II and I think they changed their way on communal thinking about racism and so on.
Well I've only lived in the US and Romania, but Romania is Europe; and they are way way behind the US on racism, sexism, gay rights, etc. The Roma pretty much all live like animals. I think your reasons are broad generalizations. Well, most of them anyway.
-Chuckk
On 10/10/07, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
I'm not sure which culture is "our" culture,
In this context, it would be all the west-european, canadian, australian, nz, usa, ... mostly that.
That sounds more like hundreds of cultures, about which one person couldn't speak authoritatively without doing lots of traveling first.
Americans today make ironic references to the "Axis of Evil" and the
"war on terror" and "homeland security" all the time. It doesn't mean they buy it, even if the media makes it seem that way.
Yeah but why do they still vote for one of the two big parties?
Because they don't believe anyone else will win. Also, though they don't necessarily buy the Axis of Evil stuff, they do buy lots of other things, including shoes made in Mexico and everything else made in China, and perhaps it is true that most don't want to think too hard about certain things.
-Chuckk
Le mercredi 10 octobre 2007 à 02:18 -0400, Mathieu Bouchard a écrit :
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Chris McCormick wrote:
implying that the phrase "Mongolian hordes" represents a historically valid viewpoint is perpetuating a western-biased (racist) falsehood.
"horde" is not a viewpoint. It's a noun. It means "political subdivision of a (central asian) nomadic people". It comes for Turkic "orda" meaning a Khan's residence.
The mere fact that everyone knows what we're talking about when we say "mongolian hordes"
If you use political correctness to get a word loaded with connotations to be replaced by a brand new word, the old connotations tend to be carried over to the new word. Thus those are not so much properties of a specific word, than a topic of public opinion. This is something that is best fixed by education and not by "dictionary engineering".
whilst there is no similar widespread cliche for western invaders in our culture is testament to this fact.
Fair use of political correctness: I read an article about US Restaurants renaming "French fries" into "Liberty fries" (although most French think fries originate from Belgium ;-), I suggest we rewrite "Mongolian hordes" into "Liberty hordes".
bye.
O.
IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
Thomas Mayer wrote:
Wet dream can also relate to the dreams of water on Dune by Paul Atreides and gang bang can mean [t b b b b b b]
indeed this is possible. these phrases could also be not english at all and mean something like "bubo bubo" and "forgive".
I have put a SCNR (= Sorry, Could Not Resist) at the bottom of my mail, so it should not have been taken too seriously. I have not encountered much sexism on this list, maybe I just have not noticed, except one thread in the last two weeks. But then, I have been on this list only for two years, and have been lurking most of the time.
And here is a great comic about online sexism: http://xkcd.com/322/
"Prisons are needed only to provide the illusion that courts and police are effective. They're a kind of job insurance." (Leto II. in: Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune) http://thomas.dergrossebruder.org/
I have 30 cents to make this discussion even more useful and meaningful as
it already is:
warming, or the socio-political effects of data structures' last
improvements in the ambitus of left-handed users of the olpc project,
since it's also as interesting as what you're doing now;
externals to Hans, and they'll be part of pd extended. or program some
anti-sexist scripts to apply to the list server. or scan the pd mailling
list for sexist mails, and then expell their authors from the list and
have a swat team go to their homes and burn their computers and chop off
their typing fingers;
One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k.
[I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least it's a
humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last weeks]
pd not sexist but sexiest
2007/10/9, João Miguel Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com:
I have 30 cents to make this discussion even more useful and meaningful as it already is:
- How about discussing enviromentalism and how pd contributes to global
warming, or the socio-political effects of data structures' last improvements in the ambitus of left-handed users of the olpc project, since it's also as interesting as what you're doing now;
- if you think pd is sexist, don't stay inactive, provide your anti-sexist
externals to Hans, and they'll be part of pd extended. or program some anti-sexist scripts to apply to the list server. or scan the pd mailling list for sexist mails, and then expell their authors from the list and have a swat team go to their homes and burn their computers and chop off their typing fingers;
- do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a lightbulb? 2:
One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k. [I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least it's a humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last weeks]
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ola,
- do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a lightbulb? 2:
One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k.
the [not so funny thing] about sexist [ and heavy ] people is like of one having a d*** in place of his nose, he's just unable to see it.
all the answers we got on this thread really show the high level of sexism on this list, and once again, some girls will not answer to this level of discussion ..
sevy
pd : btw, we will not meet in Lisboa, thank you no...
the [not so funny thing] about sexist [ and heavy ] people is like of one having a d*** in place of his nose, he's just unable to see it.
dude, without wanting to be offensive: it's a really good thing to be a
rebel and provide alternatives to mainstream established corrupt power and
etc., but it's not good to be a fundamentalist, whatever what's your
"religion" (wahhabism, christian, capitalism, feminism, animal
rights....). this thread started with you complaining about the terms 'wet
dream' and 'gang bang'. If you do a search for them in this list, you'll
find:
'wet dream' - 2002, one thread with 4 mails. also women can have wet
dreams, just like women can ejaculate - go figure, just like men. some
really emancipated women that I know speak about their wet dreams, how
they would like to "get that guy", and etc. - which I find quite good,
because they're free to live their lives as they want to, and they do it.
and anyway they don't care about what I think, because they just do what
they want.
'gang bang' - some mails in 2004, one or 2 in 2006. related with an
object, not with the action. by the way, check the wikipedia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_bang: gang bang is something done by
both sexes, and "is now increasingly applied only to consensual sexual
behavior in the sexual swinging community". unles you meant 'gang rape',
but a search in the pd list turns out no results. I guess we macho
women-enslaving pders have something to learn yet, thank you for bringing
that up.
So resuming, you're complaining about something that someone wrote once or
twice years ago? either is the whole list very wrong, or you might be
exagerating a bit. anyway if you're against macho and sexism, you're in
the right place, the country in europe with the greatest number of
domestic violence-provoked deaths - even worse as Portugal. if you want to
do something about it, start there.
anyway, if you're really serious about sexism in this list and not just
mouthing out, get some real references, and we'll talk about it like
civilized people. think of it as providing a bug report: if you only say
"this object doesn't work" no one will have a clue of what you meant, and
people might start talking about something general without going to the
point; if you say "this object did so and so in these conditions, here's a
log for you to see" then people have some reference. if you really think
we're sexist or we can improve something, do something more than scream
"you filthy pigs" - you'll notice that people will be more interested in
the subject, and will be more responsive.
all the answers we got on this thread really show the high level of sexism on this list, and once again, some girls will not answer to this level of discussion ..
you know, all these years as a (not very active) member of pd list I never
saw many women mailing, providing abstractions or externals. are we really
so bad that they don't even subscribe? again I ask, if you're serious
about this theme, search the list and send concrete references to the
list. unles you mean using [bang] is sexist...
pd : btw, we will not meet in Lisboa, thank you no...
I prefer it that way too, I don't know if I would be able to take your
"street language" and your linux fundamentalism.
check out the old area of Alfama in a sunny day, it's quite beautiful. if
you go out at night, try Bairro Alto, and the Zé dos Bois art
gallery/bar/concert venue, there's always something happening there, and
they should be interested in your work. there's also going to be a free
software encounter in 12 and 13 - http://www.softwarelivre.com.pt/,
probably most of it in portuguese and not music-related. Don't be afraid,
I won't be there.
the areas outside Lisboa are quite nice, Sintra, Cascais (maybe too
decadent), Alentejo, .... and of course, wine and fish.
Joao
PS to the rest of the list: sorry for the troll feeding, it won't happen
again (it's my first time)
-- Friedenstr. 58 10249 Berlin Deutschland Tel +49 30 42020091 Mob +49 162 6843570 jmmmpais@googlemail.com skype: jmmmpjmmmp http://www.puredata.org/Members/jmmmp IBM Thinkpad R51, XP, Pd-Ext-0.39-2-t5, Pd Van 0.40-t2
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 01:14:46PM +0200, Thomas Mayer wrote:
and gang bang can mean [t b b b b b b]
+1 Funny
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On Sun, Oct 07, 2007 at 10:34:30PM +0200, ydegoyon@free.fr wrote:
ola,
i'm sorry to be boring on this list, but here i read everyday terms as : 'wet dream', 'gang bang' , ..
Women have wet dreams too. It's been studied and confirmed since the 1950's, IIRC.
"Gang bang" could possibly be considered offensive, although sometimes they are consensual and gender-balanced (well, here in California, anyway).
and i understand why some girls stay away from this list
It could be because you are calling them "girls".
Any female over the age of majority (18 in California) is not a girl :-)
sorry, i'm chocked sometimes, by the 'between men' macho jokes... even me.
Don't sweat it. It's probably fine as long as you're not doing this: http://xkcd.com/322/