On Sep 30, 2017, at 12:00 PM, pd-list-request@lists.iem.at wrote:
So I'm really confused on what the technical issues are.
The macOS [pix_film], [pix_image], & [pix_record] backends use the Quicktime framework (via QTKit) provided by Apple with the OS.
Apple stopped updating Quicktime a while ago in favor of the AVFoundation framework starting with macOS 10.7. Quicktime, being older, was designed for 32 bit systems and not updated for 64 bit. AVFoundation being newer was designed for 64 bit systems and does not support 32 bit.
As of macOS 10.12, Quicktime is no longer included with the OS. This was after being deprecated for 5 versions of the OS, so no surprise. If you are running 10.12, [pix_film], [pix_image], & [pix_record] simply will not work as there is no Quicktime. The backends need to be transitions to use AVFoundation instead.
Everything else in GEM works.
I started the basics of adding AVFoundation backends a couple years ago now, but just haven't gotten around to things very often and was hoping (in vain apparently) that there were some other people willing to finish it off. There is currently a [pix_film] working with AVFoundation but it has a memory leak I haven't fixed, so Pd crashes after playing a video for about a minute.
Dan Wilcox @danomatika http://twitter.com/danomatika danomatika.com http://danomatika.com/ robotcowboy.com http://robotcowboy.com/
2017-09-30 21:43 GMT-03:00 Dan Wilcox danomatika@gmail.com:
As of macOS 10.12, Quicktime is no longer included with the OS. This was after being deprecated for 5 versions of the OS, so no surprise. If you are running 10.12, [pix_film], [pix_image], & [pix_record] simply will not work as there is no Quicktime. The backends need to be transitions to use AVFoundation instead.
Thanks a lot for all the details, BUT... still confused. Cause I'm testing [pix_film] on macOS 10.12 with Gem and Pd Extended/Pd Vanilla 32 bits... and it still works!
screenshot:
[image: Imagem inline 1]
You are correct and I am wrong.
Quicktime was removed. QTKit was not, but QTKit is 32 bit only, so a 64 bit build of Gem will not have those 3 working objects on macOS.
On Oct 1, 2017, at 5:41 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com wrote:
2017-09-30 21:43 GMT-03:00 Dan Wilcox <danomatika@gmail.com mailto:danomatika@gmail.com>:
As of macOS 10.12, Quicktime is no longer included with the OS. This was after being deprecated for 5 versions of the OS, so no surprise. If you are running 10.12, [pix_film], [pix_image], & [pix_record] simply will not work as there is no Quicktime. The backends need to be transitions to use AVFoundation instead.
Thanks a lot for all the details, BUT... still confused. Cause I'm testing [pix_film] on macOS 10.12 with Gem and Pd Extended/Pd Vanilla 32 bits... and it still works!
screenshot:
<Screen Shot 2017-10-01 at 12.40.11.png>
Dan Wilcox @danomatika http://twitter.com/danomatika danomatika.com http://danomatika.com/ robotcowboy.com http://robotcowboy.com/
That also shows you how often I use Gem. Note that QtKit was deprecated in 10.9, so it will probably be removed after a few versions as well: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/qtkit https://developer.apple.com/documentation/qtkit
On Oct 1, 2017, at 6:01 PM, Dan Wilcox danomatika@gmail.com wrote:
You are correct and I am wrong.
Quicktime was removed. QTKit was not, but QTKit is 32 bit only, so a 64 bit build of Gem will not have those 3 working objects on macOS.
On Oct 1, 2017, at 5:41 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres <porres@gmail.com mailto:porres@gmail.com> wrote:
2017-09-30 21:43 GMT-03:00 Dan Wilcox <danomatika@gmail.com mailto:danomatika@gmail.com>:
As of macOS 10.12, Quicktime is no longer included with the OS. This was after being deprecated for 5 versions of the OS, so no surprise. If you are running 10.12, [pix_film], [pix_image], & [pix_record] simply will not work as there is no Quicktime. The backends need to be transitions to use AVFoundation instead.
Thanks a lot for all the details, BUT... still confused. Cause I'm testing [pix_film] on macOS 10.12 with Gem and Pd Extended/Pd Vanilla 32 bits... and it still works!
screenshot:
<Screen Shot 2017-10-01 at 12.40.11.png>
Dan Wilcox @danomatika http://twitter.com/danomatika danomatika.com http://danomatika.com/ robotcowboy.com http://robotcowboy.com/
Dan Wilcox @danomatika http://twitter.com/danomatika danomatika.com http://danomatika.com/ robotcowboy.com http://robotcowboy.com/
cool.
well, one more question.
Gem is not the only one that doesn't run in 64 bits, right? Anyone know of others that don't?
And what about a library that only runs on 64 bits but not in 32, is there any? I think not, right?
cheers
2017-10-01 13:01 GMT-03:00 Dan Wilcox danomatika@gmail.com:
You are correct and I am wrong.
Quicktime was removed. QTKit was not, but QTKit is 32 bit only, so a 64 bit build of Gem will not have those 3 working objects on macOS.
On Oct 1, 2017, at 5:41 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com wrote:
2017-09-30 21:43 GMT-03:00 Dan Wilcox danomatika@gmail.com:
As of macOS 10.12, Quicktime is no longer included with the OS. This was after being deprecated for 5 versions of the OS, so no surprise. If you are running 10.12, [pix_film], [pix_image], & [pix_record] simply will not work as there is no Quicktime. The backends need to be transitions to use AVFoundation instead.
Thanks a lot for all the details, BUT... still confused. Cause I'm testing [pix_film] on macOS 10.12 with Gem and Pd Extended/Pd Vanilla 32 bits... and it still works!
screenshot:
<Screen Shot 2017-10-01 at 12.40.11.png>
Dan Wilcox @danomatika http://twitter.com/danomatika danomatika.com robotcowboy.com
On Oct 1, 2017, at 6:09 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com wrote:
cool.
well, one more question.
Gem is not the only one that doesn't run in 64 bits, right?
It runs fine in 64 bit, its only that the QTKit backend objects cannot be compiled. As I've said before, everything else works fine.
I'm not sure where all the fear, uncertainty, doubt comes form regarding this. Gem is not screwed or doesn't;t work on macOS, just that video in and out do not work. They *can* work and that is what needs to be added.
Anyone know of others that don't?
Probably not many with this unique requirement.
And what about a library that only runs on 64 bits but not in 32, is there any? I think not, right?
In general no, but as most systems are 64 bit, most code written nowadays (whether directly or not) is for 64 bit. In practice, this really only matters for things where explicit 64 bit data sizes are important and I don't think there are many applications within Pd that need them. If you don't rely on a 64 bit int type, then most general purpose code will work the same on 32 or 64 bit.
I image Quicktime (and hence QTKit) were optimizes for 32 bit with low level assembly for some speed-sensitive stuff and Apple decided to reimplement using AVFoundation instead of reworking QTKit. Lower level stuff relies on more specific architecture interfaces, so something like 32 or 64 bit (or even the specific processor family) becomes pretty important.
cheers
2017-10-01 13:01 GMT-03:00 Dan Wilcox <danomatika@gmail.com mailto:danomatika@gmail.com>: You are correct and I am wrong.
Quicktime was removed. QTKit was not, but QTKit is 32 bit only, so a 64 bit build of Gem will not have those 3 working objects on macOS.
On Oct 1, 2017, at 5:41 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres <porres@gmail.com mailto:porres@gmail.com> wrote:
2017-09-30 21:43 GMT-03:00 Dan Wilcox <danomatika@gmail.com mailto:danomatika@gmail.com>:
As of macOS 10.12, Quicktime is no longer included with the OS. This was after being deprecated for 5 versions of the OS, so no surprise. If you are running 10.12, [pix_film], [pix_image], & [pix_record] simply will not work as there is no Quicktime. The backends need to be transitions to use AVFoundation instead.
Thanks a lot for all the details, BUT... still confused. Cause I'm testing [pix_film] on macOS 10.12 with Gem and Pd Extended/Pd Vanilla 32 bits... and it still works!
screenshot:
<Screen Shot 2017-10-01 at 12.40.11.png>
Dan Wilcox @danomatika http://twitter.com/danomatika danomatika.com http://danomatika.com/ robotcowboy.com http://robotcowboy.com/
Dan Wilcox @danomatika http://twitter.com/danomatika danomatika.com http://danomatika.com/ robotcowboy.com http://robotcowboy.com/
On Oct 1, 2017, at 6:17 PM, Dan Wilcox danomatika@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not sure where all the fear, uncertainty, doubt comes form regarding this. Gem is not screwed or doesn't;t work on macOS, just that video in and out do not work. They *can* work and that is what needs to be added.
By this I was meaning in general, not from your personally.
I suppose it's partially my fault actually for reminding people that Gem was gong to lose important functionality when Quicktime goes. Luckily, QTKit is still there but we're looking at the same issue happening soon enough again.
I think my original warnings were more for the viability of Gem and for users who rely on video in/out. If/when it stops working, we lose those users so I feel this is an important issue worth solving.
Dan Wilcox @danomatika http://twitter.com/danomatika danomatika.com http://danomatika.com/ robotcowboy.com http://robotcowboy.com/
On 10/01/2017 06:09 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
Gem is not the only one that doesn't run in 64 bits, right?
why do you think so?
Anyone know of others that don't?
no¹ practically all libraries have been tested on 64bit for >10 years (including Gem). virtually all work. even Gem (i've been using Gem on 64bit systems since about 2004); but a few of Gem's plugins(!) rely on libraries that only exist on 32bit - so those libraries can only be used on that platform) most libraries don't have any 3rd party dependencies, so this is a non-issue for them
gfmards IOhannes
¹ there are still a few libraries that use garray_getfloatarray() for accessing table data. these libraries are all broken on any 64bit system.
2017-10-01 13:22 GMT-03:00 IOhannes m zmölnig zmoelnig@iem.at:
On 10/01/2017 06:09 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
Gem is not the only one that doesn't run in 64 bits, right?
why do you think so?
Because the download of Pd 32 bit for mac in Miller's page clearly states that it "*works with older external libraries*", so it gives you the idea that there are multiple libraries that will only work in that Pd version, Gem being one of them.
Maybe we should change that?
cheers
On 10/01/2017 06:34 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
Because the download of Pd 32 bit for mac in Miller's page clearly states that it "*works with older external libraries*", so it gives you the idea that there are multiple libraries that will only work in that Pd version, Gem being one of them.
Maybe we should change that?
no.
what it means (i guess) is that it "works with older binaries of external libraries". for a long time, Pd on OSX was only available as 32bit builds. so all the pre-built libraries were also only available as 32bit libraries. all (most) of these libraries could be built for 64bit just as well, but if you already have a 32bit binary of a given library, you just cannot use it with a 64bit Pd.
gfdsamr IOhannes
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Alexandre Torres Porres -
Dan Wilcox -
IOhannes m zmölnig