Hello!
We are interested to help the portuguese translation of the Floss Manuals of Pure Data.
We are looking forward to help this comunity!
In the translation interface has a option with various revisions, I suppose we need to translate the last revision (1.15), is it right? We just started editing the introduction, so can we just publish it?
Thanks for now.
cheers,
GabrielaThume and IldomarCarvalho
Hello Gabi & Ildomar,
the PD FLOSS Manual is still very much under development. If you want to translate it, that;s fine but keep in mind that it could be revised at any time. Take the chapters from the editing interface rather than the published online version for the most recent, but somewhat "unstable" versions/revisions. And feel free to maker improvements where you find a place for them!
Best, Derek
On 8/9/10 10:33 PM, Gabi Thumé wrote:
Hello!
We are interested to help the portuguese translation of the Floss Manuals of Pure Data.
We are looking forward to help this comunity!
In the translation interface has a option with various revisions, I suppose we need to translate the last revision (1.15), is it right? We just started editing the introduction, so can we just publish it?
Thanks for now.
cheers,
GabrielaThume and IldomarCarvalho
-- "A realidade é a fuga para aqueles que não têm coragem de enfrentar os sonhos" -- Slavoj Zizek
Gabriela Salvador Thumé >> http://gabi.void.cc/
Bacharelanda em Ciência da Computação (UDESC - Joinville) Colméia - Grupo de Pesquisa em Software Livre MuSA - http://musa.cc
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
hi
I would like to help also, how can I?
[] a
2010/8/9 Derek Holzer derek@umatic.nl
Hello Gabi & Ildomar,
the PD FLOSS Manual is still very much under development. If you want to translate it, that;s fine but keep in mind that it could be revised at any time. Take the chapters from the editing interface rather than the published online version for the most recent, but somewhat "unstable" versions/revisions. And feel free to maker improvements where you find a place for them!
Best, Derek
On 8/9/10 10:33 PM, Gabi Thumé wrote:
Hello!
We are interested to help the portuguese translation of the Floss Manuals of Pure Data.
We are looking forward to help this comunity!
In the translation interface has a option with various revisions, I suppose we need to translate the last revision (1.15), is it right? We just started editing the introduction, so can we just publish it?
Thanks for now.
cheers,
GabrielaThume and IldomarCarvalho
-- "A realidade é a fuga para aqueles que não têm coragem de enfrentar os sonhos" -- Slavoj Zizek
Gabriela Salvador Thumé >> http://gabi.void.cc/
Bacharelanda em Ciência da Computação (UDESC - Joinville) Colméia - Grupo de Pesquisa em Software Livre MuSA - http://musa.cc
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- ::: derek holzer ::: http://macumbista.net ::: ---Oblique Strategy # 194: "Steal a solution."
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
FLOSS Manuals is really in a similar style of a wiki. So once the
Portuguese version of the manual gets started, you can just edit
chapters as you have time. The big question here is whether the
Portuguese should stick closely to the English version, or just
naturally develop in relation to the English. I would hate to see the
Portuguese effort blocked by waiting for the English effort, but there
is also something to be gained by staying in sync. Plus if there is a
big push to write the Portuguese version, then the English version
could also draw from it. Of course, I hope that as people work on the
Portuguese version, they could also contribute to the English version.
That's the discussion, I see good reasons to do it both ways. Its up
to the people who want to work on the Portuguese version how they want
to approach it.
.hc
On Aug 9, 2010, at 5:28 PM, Ariane stolfi wrote:
hi
I would like to help also, how can I?
[] a
2010/8/9 Derek Holzer derek@umatic.nl Hello Gabi & Ildomar,
the PD FLOSS Manual is still very much under development. If you
want to translate it, that;s fine but keep in mind that it could be
revised at any time. Take the chapters from the editing interface
rather than the published online version for the most recent, but
somewhat "unstable" versions/revisions. And feel free to maker
improvements where you find a place for them!Best, Derek
On 8/9/10 10:33 PM, Gabi Thumé wrote: Hello!
We are interested to help the portuguese translation of the Floss Manuals of Pure Data.
We are looking forward to help this comunity!
In the translation interface has a option with various revisions, I suppose we need to translate the last revision (1.15), is it right? We just started editing the introduction, so can we just publish it?
Thanks for now.
cheers,
GabrielaThume and IldomarCarvalho
-- "A realidade é a fuga para aqueles que não têm coragem de enfrentar os sonhos" -- Slavoj Zizek
Gabriela Salvador Thumé >> http://gabi.void.cc/
Bacharelanda em Ciência da Computação (UDESC - Joinville) Colméia - Grupo de Pesquisa em Software Livre MuSA - http://musa.cc
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- ::: derek holzer ::: http://macumbista.net ::: ---Oblique Strategy # 194: "Steal a solution."
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of
exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an
idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps
it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into
the possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself
of it. - Thomas Jefferson
I'm totally supportive of "forking" whatever translation comes up. The reason that the Pd FLOSS Manual will never be "finished" is that Pd can do some many things, and the docs all arise out of individual people's research and needs. So if the PT scene has other stuff they are interested in, and skew their manual in that direction, good for them! D.
On 8/9/10 11:50 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
FLOSS Manuals is really in a similar style of a wiki. So once the Portuguese version of the manual gets started, you can just edit chapters as you have time. The big question here is whether the Portuguese should stick closely to the English version, or just naturally develop in relation to the English. I would hate to see the Portuguese effort blocked by waiting for the English effort, but there is also something to be gained by staying in sync. Plus if there is a big push to write the Portuguese version, then the English version could also draw from it. Of course, I hope that as people work on the Portuguese version, they could also contribute to the English version.
That's the discussion, I see good reasons to do it both ways. Its up to the people who want to work on the Portuguese version how they want to approach it.
.hc
On Aug 9, 2010, at 5:28 PM, Ariane stolfi wrote:
hi
I would like to help also, how can I?
[] a
2010/8/9 Derek Holzer <derek@umatic.nl mailto:derek@umatic.nl>
Hello Gabi & Ildomar, the PD FLOSS Manual is still very much under development. If you want to translate it, that;s fine but keep in mind that it could be revised at any time. Take the chapters from the editing interface rather than the published online version for the most recent, but somewhat "unstable" versions/revisions. And feel free to maker improvements where you find a place for them! Best, Derek On 8/9/10 10:33 PM, Gabi Thumé wrote: Hello! We are interested to help the portuguese translation of the Floss Manuals of Pure Data. We are looking forward to help this comunity! In the translation interface has a option with various revisions, I suppose we need to translate the last revision (1.15), is it right? We just started editing the introduction, so can we just publish it? Thanks for now. cheers, GabrielaThume and IldomarCarvalho -- "A realidade é a fuga para aqueles que não têm coragem de enfrentar os sonhos" -- Slavoj Zizek Gabriela Salvador Thumé >> http://gabi.void.cc/ Bacharelanda em Ciência da Computação (UDESC - Joinville) Colméia - Grupo de Pesquisa em Software Livre MuSA - http://musa.cc _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at <mailto:Pd-list@iem.at> mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- ::: derek holzer ::: http://macumbista.net ::: ---Oblique Strategy # 194: "Steal a solution." _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at <mailto:Pd-list@iem.at> mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailto:Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. - Thomas Jefferson
I am really interested to contribute to the Portuguese version, BTW I think that the English version also need help to be finished. But I don't know how I can contribute with. I know that all of you are making effort to this Manual, but I think the community that wants to learn PD here in Brazil needs a translation. But I wish to help you with the English version too. So, how can I help the English version? Which version may I translate to Portuguese? The last one of each chapter? How to know the state of the English version? Is there another mail list of the guys doing that?
Sorry about all of my questions.
Thanks.
@ariane, we can talk by mail, thanks ;-)
cheers,
2010/8/9 Derek Holzer derek@umatic.nl
I'm totally supportive of "forking" whatever translation comes up. The reason that the Pd FLOSS Manual will never be "finished" is that Pd can do some many things, and the docs all arise out of individual people's research and needs. So if the PT scene has other stuff they are interested in, and skew their manual in that direction, good for them! D.
On 8/9/10 11:50 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
FLOSS Manuals is really in a similar style of a wiki. So once the Portuguese version of the manual gets started, you can just edit chapters as you have time. The big question here is whether the Portuguese should stick closely to the English version, or just naturally develop in relation to the English. I would hate to see the Portuguese effort blocked by waiting for the English effort, but there is also something to be gained by staying in sync. Plus if there is a big push to write the Portuguese version, then the English version could also draw from it. Of course, I hope that as people work on the Portuguese version, they could also contribute to the English version.
That's the discussion, I see good reasons to do it both ways. Its up to the people who want to work on the Portuguese version how they want to approach it.
.hc
On Aug 9, 2010, at 5:28 PM, Ariane stolfi wrote:
hi
I would like to help also, how can I?
[] a
2010/8/9 Derek Holzer <derek@umatic.nl mailto:derek@umatic.nl>
Hello Gabi & Ildomar,
the PD FLOSS Manual is still very much under development. If you want to translate it, that;s fine but keep in mind that it could be revised at any time. Take the chapters from the editing interface rather than the published online version for the most recent, but somewhat "unstable" versions/revisions. And feel free to maker improvements where you find a place for them!
Best, Derek
On 8/9/10 10:33 PM, Gabi Thumé wrote:
Hello! We are interested to help the portuguese translation of the Floss Manuals of Pure Data. We are looking forward to help this comunity! In the translation interface has a option with various revisions, I suppose we need to translate the last revision (1.15), is it right? We just started editing the introduction, so can we just publish it? Thanks for now. cheers, GabrielaThume and IldomarCarvalho -- "A realidade é a fuga para aqueles que não têm coragem de enfrentar os sonhos" -- Slavoj Zizek Gabriela Salvador Thumé >> http://gabi.void.cc/ Bacharelanda em Ciência da Computação (UDESC - Joinville) Colméia - Grupo de Pesquisa em Software Livre MuSA - http://musa.cc _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at <mailto:Pd-list@iem.at> mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list-- ::: derek holzer ::: http://macumbista.net ::: ---Oblique Strategy # 194: "Steal a solution."
Pd-list@iem.at mailto:Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailto:Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. - Thomas Jefferson
-- ::: derek holzer ::: http://macumbista.net ::: ---Oblique Strategy # 202: "Back up a few steps. What else could you have done?"
Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.flossmanuals.net http://lists.flossmanuals.net/listinfo.cgi/discuss-flossmanuals.net
The FLOSS Manual gets discussed on the Discuss-FM list and on the Pd list. I've posted several updates on what could be done to improve the English manual on both lists in the last few years, which don't seem to get much attention...
Mostly people edit it in a hit-and-run kind of fashion when they find something they think needs fixing while reading it. Major pushes towards improvements happen during book sprints, but we have none planned. My own life and work has taken me pretty far from the project myself at the moment, so I stay on mainly as admin.
Like HC said, and I echoed, don't wait around for the English manual to be "finished". It's not likely to happen any time soon. Start translating, and if you find problems or places where it is incomplete, then fill the gaps in Portuguese or even in English if you like. If you add content in Portuguese, point it out to us on these two lists and perhaps someone will translate it into English.
Best! Derek
On 8/10/10 12:54 AM, Gabi Thumé wrote:
I am really interested to contribute to the Portuguese version, BTW I think that the English version also need help to be finished. But I don't know how I can contribute with. I know that all of you are making effort to this Manual, but I think the community that wants to learn PD here in Brazil needs a translation. But I wish to help you with the English version too. So, how can I help the English version? Which version may I translate to Portuguese? The last one of each chapter? How to know the state of the English version? Is there another mail list of the guys doing that?
Sorry about all of my questions.
Thanks.
Oi galera,
posso perguntar qual o interesse especÃfico em traduzir o manual (ou outro
material qualquer) para portugês? [português do brasil, imagino]
Eu sou um dos participantes do floss manual (fiz a lista de objectos e o
capÃtulo sobre listas). Posso tentar ajudar, mas por enquanto não sei se
tenho tempo (ou disposição) para fazer essa uma das minhas prioridades.
Qual é a situação no brasil, é mesmo mais fácil de usar o material
didáctico estando em português, ou as pessoas podem ler bem o inglês?
Para além de mim há no máximo uma mão-cheia de utilizadores portugueses.
Brasileiros há bastantes mais, tanto quanto sei alguns de São Paulo.
Cumprimentos,
João Pais
The FLOSS Manual gets discussed on the Discuss-FM list and on the Pd
list. I've posted several updates on what could be done to improve the
English manual on both lists in the last few years, which don't seem to
get much attention...Mostly people edit it in a hit-and-run kind of fashion when they find
something they think needs fixing while reading it. Major pushes towards
improvements happen during book sprints, but we have none planned. My
own life and work has taken me pretty far from the project myself at the
moment, so I stay on mainly as admin.Like HC said, and I echoed, don't wait around for the English manual to
be "finished". It's not likely to happen any time soon. Start
translating, and if you find problems or places where it is incomplete,
then fill the gaps in Portuguese or even in English if you like. If you
add content in Portuguese, point it out to us on these two lists and
perhaps someone will translate it into English.Best! Derek
On 8/10/10 12:54 AM, Gabi Thumé wrote:
I am really interested to contribute to the Portuguese version, BTW I think that the English version also need help to be finished. But I don't know how I can contribute with. I know that all of you are making effort to this Manual, but I think the community that wants to learn PD here in Brazil needs a translation. But I wish to help you with the English version too. So, how can I help the English version? Which version may I translate to Portuguese? The last one of each chapter? How to know the state of the English version? Is there another mail list of the guys doing that?
Sorry about all of my questions.
Thanks.
Em 10 de agosto de 2010 21:42, João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com escreveu:
Oi galera,
Hey João,
posso perguntar qual o interesse específico em traduzir o manual (ou outro material qualquer) para portugês? [português do brasil, imagino]
yes, it's pt-br. Every translation is interesting not just for the native speakers of the target language, but even the original version could benefit from that. Translating a document we're revisioning the original one, so it's so natural to go back to that and include some contribution.
I usually recommend the FLOSS Manual of Pure Data to new users, and they don't like so much when discovers that it's written just in english. Personally I don't like to read translations, but for newcomers it's a pretext to run out.
I think mainly the object list of the FLOSS Manual needs to be translated: every new user of PD wants a "cheat sheet", and I know it's a right-click away from them, but some times, at workshops for instance, it's good to have a piece of paper to show all the from-basic-to-powerful objects.
Eu sou um dos participantes do floss manual (fiz a lista de objectos e o capítulo sobre listas).
It's awesome! Congrats and thanks! :-)
@Gabi: I want to help too ;-)
All the best.
OBS: João, a resposta foi em inglês pois creio que o pessoal da lista se beneficie. Abraços!
Personally I don't see the point why so many materials of pratical use in free software splits the efford make two translations for brazilian and european portuguese. It does even lees sense after the new orthography common to both sides. Ok, I know, there *are* differences, but, come on!, they don't make you misunderstand anything, it's just a different flavor.
I would vote to unify effords concerning any translation like this tutorial or any text of pratical use. They could even mix up, one chapter made by a brazilian, another by a portuguese guy, no problem.
2010/8/11, Vilson Vieira vilson@void.cc:
Em 10 de agosto de 2010 21:42, João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com escreveu:
Oi galera,
Hey João,
posso perguntar qual o interesse específico em traduzir o manual (ou outro material qualquer) para portugês? [português do brasil, imagino]
yes, it's pt-br. Every translation is interesting not just for the native speakers of the target language, but even the original version could benefit from that. Translating a document we're revisioning the original one, so it's so natural to go back to that and include some contribution.
I usually recommend the FLOSS Manual of Pure Data to new users, and they don't like so much when discovers that it's written just in english. Personally I don't like to read translations, but for newcomers it's a pretext to run out.
I think mainly the object list of the FLOSS Manual needs to be translated: every new user of PD wants a "cheat sheet", and I know it's a right-click away from them, but some times, at workshops for instance, it's good to have a piece of paper to show all the from-basic-to-powerful objects.
Eu sou um dos participantes do floss manual (fiz a lista de objectos e o capítulo sobre listas).
It's awesome! Congrats and thanks! :-)
@Gabi: I want to help too ;-)
All the best.
OBS: João, a resposta foi em inglês pois creio que o pessoal da lista se beneficie. Abraços!
-- Vilson Vieira
vilson@void.cc
((( http://automata.cc )))
((( http://musa.cc )))
+1
2010/8/11 Bernardo Barros bernardobarros2@gmail.com
Personally I don't see the point why so many materials of pratical use in free software splits the efford make two translations for brazilian and european portuguese. It does even lees sense after the new orthography common to both sides. Ok, I know, there *are* differences, but, come on!, they don't make you misunderstand anything, it's just a different flavor.
I would vote to unify effords concerning any translation like this tutorial or any text of pratical use. They could even mix up, one chapter made by a brazilian, another by a portuguese guy, no problem.
2010/8/11, Vilson Vieira vilson@void.cc:
Em 10 de agosto de 2010 21:42, João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com
escreveu:
Oi galera,
Hey João,
posso perguntar qual o interesse específico em traduzir o manual (ou
outro
material qualquer) para portugês? [português do brasil, imagino]
yes, it's pt-br. Every translation is interesting not just for the native speakers of the target language, but even the original version could
benefit
from that. Translating a document we're revisioning the original one, so it's so natural to go back to that and include some contribution.
I usually recommend the FLOSS Manual of Pure Data to new users, and they don't like so much when discovers that it's written just in english. Personally I don't like to read translations, but for newcomers it's a pretext to run out.
I think mainly the object list of the FLOSS Manual needs to be
translated:
every new user of PD wants a "cheat sheet", and I know it's a right-click away from them, but some times, at workshops for instance, it's good to
have
a piece of paper to show all the from-basic-to-powerful objects.
Eu sou um dos participantes do floss manual (fiz a lista de objectos e o capítulo sobre listas).
It's awesome! Congrats and thanks! :-)
@Gabi: I want to help too ;-)
All the best.
OBS: João, a resposta foi em inglês pois creio que o pessoal da lista se beneficie. Abraços!
-- Vilson Vieira
vilson@void.cc
((( http://automata.cc )))
((( http://musa.cc )))
On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Bernardo Barros wrote:
Personally I don't see the point why so many materials of pratical use in free software splits the efford make two translations for brazilian and european portuguese. It does even lees sense after the new orthography common to both sides. Ok, I know, there *are* differences, but, come on!, they don't make you misunderstand anything, it's just a different flavor.
Is this something that can be synched using a search-and-replace tool ?
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
Sometimes it's just one letter (with the new orography rules this is not a problem anymore), sometimes it's the choice of words, sometimes it's the verb mode, sometimes it is just the way the sentence is written. But it actually never makes you misunderstand things, at least for Brazilians, I can't speak for everyone. But if you reach a situation that can be misunderstood, a footnote is more then enough I think.
And for literary works, come on, one just can't rewrite Saramago to Brazilian Portuguese or Guimarães Rosa to European Portuguese. :-)
2010/8/12 Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca:
On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Bernardo Barros wrote:
Personally I don't see the point why so many materials of pratical use in free software splits the efford make two translations for brazilian and european portuguese. It does even lees sense after the new orthography common to both sides. Ok, I know, there *are* differences, but, come on!, they don't make you misunderstand anything, it's just a different flavor.
Is this something that can be synched using a search-and-replace tool ?
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
And for literary works, come on, one just can't rewrite Saramago to Brazilian Portuguese or Guimarães Rosa to European Portuguese. :-)
Well said. I can help, but only with pt-pt naturally. (sorry for some reason it feels weird to call it european portuguese =P)
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Bernardo Barros bernardobarros2@gmail.comwrote:
And for literary works, come on, one just can't rewrite Saramago to Brazilian Portuguese or Guimarães Rosa to European Portuguese. :-)
On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Bernardo Barros wrote:
Sometimes it's just one letter (with the new orography rules this is not a problem anymore),
But do people actually use the new rules ?
The 1990 French reform is essentially ignored where I live... people don't seem to care much.
And for literary works, come on, one just can't rewrite Saramago to Brazilian Portuguese or Guimarães Rosa to European Portuguese. :-)
But, on a different register, François Pérusse has been rerecorded in European French, Caméra Café has been completely reshot in Québécois French, and american animé such as Simpsons and Flintstones have completely different European French and Québécois French dubs.
So, which analogy is better ? :)
One has to remember that pd documentation has a certain style that makes it mostly protected from lots of regionalisms yet makes it sensitive to some other regionalisms, and it's in a way that is more like scientific and technical writing in general, than like poetry, prose, or comedy. So, it's important to justify some comparisons...
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
yeah. ok :-) My point was based that we (free software guys) have limited resources. And we (Portuguese speaking free software guys) have a bit less. Is it nice to have lots of translations? Yes. But what is the cost? And this happens a lot with other free software projects, and with the Wikipedia too. Do we really need two massive Wikipedias one for each side?
2010/8/12 Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Bernardo Barros wrote:
Sometimes it's just one letter (with the new orography rules this is not a problem anymore),
But do people actually use the new rules ?
The 1990 French reform is essentially ignored where I live... people don't seem to care much.
And for literary works, come on, one just can't rewrite Saramago to Brazilian Portuguese or Guimarães Rosa to European Portuguese. :-)
But, on a different register, François Pérusse has been rerecorded in European French, Caméra Café has been completely reshot in Québécois French, and american animé such as Simpsons and Flintstones have completely different European French and Québécois French dubs.
So, which analogy is better ? :)
One has to remember that pd documentation has a certain style that makes it mostly protected from lots of regionalisms yet makes it sensitive to some other regionalisms, and it's in a way that is more like scientific and technical writing in general, than like poetry, prose, or comedy. So, it's important to justify some comparisons...
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
A tradução não é exclusivamente para pessoas que não compreendem o Inglês, até porquê não tem como fazer um uso pleno do PD sem saber pelo menos ler em inglês.
Quando você começa a estudar algo do zero, fica mais fácil se isto está no seu idioma. Isso é algo que até te anima e te adianta algumas horas de estudo, principalmente quando está disponível uma tradução de boa qualidade.
Além disso as pessoas se sentem mais a vontade quando lêem um material na língua nativa delas. Elas se sentem como que lembradas pelo resto da comunidade, principalmente pela comunidade ativa do seu país. Gera um enorme incentivo tanto para estudar o PD quanto para comtribuir para ele. Este é o principal motivo de eu estar ajudando na tradução.
IldomarCarvalho
2010/8/12 Bernardo Barros bernardobarros2@gmail.com
yeah. ok :-) My point was based that we (free software guys) have limited resources. And we (Portuguese speaking free software guys) have a bit less. Is it nice to have lots of translations? Yes. But what is the cost? And this happens a lot with other free software projects, and with the Wikipedia too. Do we really need two massive Wikipedias one for each side?
2010/8/12 Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Bernardo Barros wrote:
Sometimes it's just one letter (with the new orography rules this is not a problem anymore),
But do people actually use the new rules ?
The 1990 French reform is essentially ignored where I live... people
don't
seem to care much.
And for literary works, come on, one just can't rewrite Saramago to Brazilian Portuguese or Guimarães Rosa to European Portuguese. :-)
But, on a different register, François Pérusse has been rerecorded in European French, Caméra Café has been completely reshot in Québécois
French,
and american animé such as Simpsons and Flintstones have completely different European French and Québécois French dubs.
So, which analogy is better ? :)
One has to remember that pd documentation has a certain style that makes
it
mostly protected from lots of regionalisms yet makes it sensitive to some other regionalisms, and it's in a way that is more like scientific and technical writing in general, than like poetry, prose, or comedy. So,
it's
important to justify some comparisons...
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010, Ildomar Gomes de Carvalho Junior wrote:
A tradução não é exclusivamente para pessoas que não compreendem o Inglês,
It's also a matter of feeling more at home, regardless of actual skill.
I want to find a way to translate help patches while keeping track of the changes in the original language so that the changes can be translated without making mistakes (such as forgetting to translate some changes).
But it's very difficult with Pd because, among other things, the order of the objects (and comments) in a file changes every time you edit, so, it's impossible to have a programme that can tell you which comment of one file corresponds to a comment of the other file.
It will require some quite capable externals.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
On 2010-08-13 18:34, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010, Ildomar Gomes de Carvalho Junior wrote:
A tradução não é exclusivamente para pessoas que não compreendem o Inglês,
It's also a matter of feeling more at home, regardless of actual skill.
I want to find a way to translate help patches while keeping track of the changes in the original language so that the changes can be translated without making mistakes (such as forgetting to translate some changes).
But it's very difficult with Pd because, among other things, the order of the objects (and comments) in a file changes every time you edit, so, it's impossible to have a programme that can tell you which comment of one file corresponds to a comment of the other file.
It will require some quite capable externals.
Yes, if an external could generate its own help patch that would be something. A simplified format would have a single block of comment text and all the messages along with the object itself. All possible messages are known to the external when it adds them to the symbol table. The symbol table could be translated on the fly but the comment block is more difficult.
Martin
On Sat, 14 Aug 2010, Martin Peach wrote:
Yes, if an external could generate its own help patch that would be something.
Jonathan proposed something similar a while ago. It would not work the same for all externals. GridFlow externals still have their own method-lookup guarded every time by a universal class_addanything... several meta-externals (language interfaces to make externals in other languages) do the same kind of thing.
It can't be fully automatic, because the doc generation tools can't inspect an external to the point of knowing which arguments will allow it to be created, how that affects the number of inlets, and all the nonfirst inlets (or all the inlets when using CLASS_NOINLET) go through t_inlets that you can't necessarily find in the class-table, and if you do find them, you can't associate them with each other until you have seen an instantiated object... etc. the trouble is endless.
The symbol table could be translated on the fly but the comment block is more difficult.
Wait, do you mean the external's code would use special commands to get the doc generated ? We were only thinking of generating the base structure of the help file to be filled in.
What do you mean by "translation of the symbol table" ? from what to what ? (btw, the symbol table has no class pointers)
Writing all of the doc in a non-pd format would help deal with the ordering of the comments and the diffs, but it wouldn't help us integrating any pd-specific features in the doc. (you can't auto-generate very meaningful examples of uses of pd objects...)
I still think that *-help.pd files should be the 'source code of the documentation' : it should be the place where we do all the editing. But I wouldn't prevent someone from having their own different system where *-help.pd files are generated.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Bernardo Barros wrote:
yeah. ok :-) My point was based that we (free software guys) have limited resources. And we (Portuguese speaking free software guys) have a bit less. Is it nice to have lots of translations? Yes. But what is the cost?
The cost in Pd is quite terrible compared to many other documentation systems because the pd file format is not diffable. This is in great part the fault of the pd patch editor itself. The day we have meaningful diffs, we can systematise the evolution of pd help file translations, as mistakes are corrected, as details are explained, and as new features are added.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
Hum, yes. For PD it is a problem indeed. The file format would have separate "content" from "presentation", right? You can have the same program with objects in different places. But to have that you must guarantee that the object location cannot influence the procedures of the program (if a box is on the left or right of another one).
2010/8/13 Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Bernardo Barros wrote:
yeah. ok :-) My point was based that we (free software guys) have limited resources. And we (Portuguese speaking free software guys) have a bit less. Is it nice to have lots of translations? Yes. But what is the cost?
The cost in Pd is quite terrible compared to many other documentation systems because the pd file format is not diffable. This is in great part the fault of the pd patch editor itself. The day we have meaningful diffs, we can systematise the evolution of pd help file translations, as mistakes are corrected, as details are explained, and as new features are added.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010, Bernardo Barros wrote:
Hum, yes. For PD it is a problem indeed. The file format would have separate "content" from "presentation", right?
Yes and no... there are different things that this idea can mean. the documentation system of GridFlow does separate part of the presentation, as for example, the look of each section heading is completely determined by an abstraction, and the abstractions know the rules and know how to move themselves downwards on the canvas to leave enough space for other objects (you have to see it to understand) but the positions of the objects are still saved in the file even though most of them could be set to 0 0 when saving the file and the process of reloading the file would automatically reposition them (this latter repositioning already works).
You can have the same program with objects in different places. But to have that you must guarantee that the object location cannot influence the procedures of the program (if a box is on the left or right of another one).
[inlet] [inlet~] [outlet] [outlet~] have behaviour that depends greatly on their x location.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
2010/8/13 Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca:
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010, Bernardo Barros wrote:
Hum, yes. For PD it is a problem indeed. The file format would have separate "content" from "presentation", right?
Yes and no... there are different things that this idea can mean. the documentation system of GridFlow does separate part of the presentation, as for example, the look of each section heading is completely determined by an abstraction, and the abstractions know the rules and know how to move themselves downwards on the canvas to leave enough space for other objects (you have to see it to understand) but the positions of the objects are still saved in the file even though most of them could be set to 0 0 when saving the file and the process of reloading the file would automatically reposition them (this latter repositioning already works).
I think if PD wants to have diff systems and things like that it have to somehow separate what is significant and not significant for the procedures of the program. Moving objects a little around is most of the times little relevant.
There is this dot (graphviz) language, do you know? It renders simple schemes to complete graphics. Something like:
one -> two -> three one -> four one -> five three -> six
Yeah, but this will add computations to PD to proceed just to show up a patch, maybe bad idea.
You can have the same program with objects in different places. But to have that you must guarantee that the object location cannot influence the procedures of the program (if a box is on the left or right of another one).
[inlet] [inlet~] [outlet] [outlet~] have behaviour that depends greatly on their x location.
Maybe a little change here? [inlet 1] [inlet 2] [inlet 3] ?
On Sat, 14 Aug 2010, Bernardo Barros wrote:
There is this dot (graphviz) language, do you know?
Since many years ago, but I don't see how it is any relevant. Thinking at all of pd's documentation conventions I've seen along the years, the tendency is away from having comments scattered around the patch, and towards getting it organised in a very rigid way using a rectangle pattern more reminescent of reference manuals of various programming languages.
So, why do you mention graphviz ?
Yeah, but this will add computations to PD to proceed just to show up a patch, maybe bad idea.
Have you seen GridFlow's help patches ? The doc elements can move around on their own under certain conditions. It takes a lot of CPU. Generally speaking, people don't complain so much about the CPU it takes. And it's possible to do the same or better, with a lot less CPU. My point is that redoing the layout when reloading each patch, isn't really a CPU-expensive thing to do (if done better than how I do it now).
Maybe a little change here? [inlet 1] [inlet 2] [inlet 3] ?
I think I proposed that in 2002 or 2003, and the reaction was negative. In the following years, there were two other different proposals to add arguments to inlets and outlets, both of which were for different purposes than ordering, and one of them was accepted in pd : [inlet~] and [outlet~] now take several numeric arguments. So, it's now impossible to add a numeric argument like that in pd, because of [inlet~] and [outlet~].
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
2010/8/14 Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca:
So, why do you mention graphviz ?
That was a way to have a file format just with the significant information for the actual procedures plus comments linked to objects. Doc would arrange this objects in an optimal way in the screen IF there is no file for the positions. That could be something like patch1.dot (or .pdot) and patch1.pos. But that is a big change...
Well, yes, this would look like manuals, but I think that could be changed. There is this proprietary software for mac that is basically a dot engine behind the scenes with point-and-click mouse interaction: http://www.omnigroup.com/products/omnigraffle/features/
2010/8/14 Bernardo Barros bernardobarros2@gmail.com:
2010/8/14 Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca:
So, why do you mention graphviz ?
That was a way to have a file format just with the significant information for the actual procedures plus comments linked to objects. Doc would arrange this objects in an optimal way in the screen IF there is no file for the positions. That could be something like patch1.dot (or .pdot) and patch1.pos. But that is a big change...
On Sat, 14 Aug 2010, Bernardo Barros wrote:
2010/8/14 Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca:
So, why do you mention graphviz ?
That was a way to have a file format just with the significant information for the actual procedures plus comments linked to objects.
Please have a look at GridFlow. It already does runtime positioning. Also, upon loading GridFlow, you can connect object outlets to plain comments, thus allowing pd to save the significant information of which comment goes with which section. you connect each comment from a [doc_m] object's right outlet so that the positioning system knows which comments go with what.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
I think mainly the object list of the FLOSS Manual needs to be
translated: every new user of PD wants a "cheat sheet", and I know it's a right-click away from them, but some times, at workshops for instance, it's good to
have a piece of paper to show all the from-basic-to-powerful objects.
I think exactly the object list is what doesn't pay up to translate. I'll
try to list the reasons:
- it makes sense to translate the tutorials, as some people can learn the
techniques faster
- but anyway Pd's operating language is (and it will be for much time)
english. Since all help files are in english, it's not possible to go
beyond a certain level in Pd without coping with this. Having the object
list in english slowly makes people get used to this reality
- I compiled this object list, and am fed up with it - it had to be done
with copy-paste. Of course I have nothing against someone translating it,
but I won't be doing it myself.
- this list is, in theory, already obsolete 5 minutes after being done.
There are always new objects, or (some) existing objects can be changed at
any time (in real life very few do). so in english it's already not a
perfect solution, and in another language it will be even less. unless
someone wants to stick with the list for a long term.
- for now it's not a priority for me, but I will at some point try to find
an "automatic" way of generating an updated object list of pd-ext (now has
around 3000 files in the /extra folder). so, don't look at the list as
something stopped in time, but as something flowing (at a slow speed)
If you want to coordinate some effort to translate the floss manual, I
suggest to leave the list for the end, or even not do it. But it's my
suggestion.
I would also suggest to translate the patches that come with Pd - or did
someone do it already? Many people complain that Pd doesn't has such nice
tutorial patches as Max-MSP, but it has almost the same ones. People just
don't know about it.
I don't want to get deeply involved in the organisation, but I put some
hours at some time translating/revising material. I will do it in pt-pt,
and whoever wants can change it to br-pt.
João Pais
On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, João Pais wrote:
- but anyway Pd's operating language is (and it will be for much time)
english. Since all help files are in english, it's not possible to go beyond a certain level in Pd without coping with this.
Do you mean it's not possible to translate help files ?
Having the object list in english slowly makes people get used to this reality
Having the object list translated slowly makes people get used to the possible future of translated help files.
- I compiled this object list, and am fed up with it - it had to
be done with copy-paste.
I have made a tool to maintain an object list in several languages. It's what was used to generate gridflow/doc/index.pd. Currently I use it only for a single language, but it's already easy to plug alternate languages into it, and it sorts the object list alphabetically and keeps everything aligned, with the same spacing all over.
Just to make sure : by object list I mean something with short descriptions, as found when right-clicking in the background of a canvas. You mean the same thing, right ?
this list is, in theory, already obsolete 5 minutes after being done. There are always new objects,
I don't think that there ought to be a single centrally-maintained list. I also don't think that it ought to be in a format that makes you think something like "it's obsolete 5 minutes after being done" : a minor update should feel like a minor update and not like a whole "oh no, not again !" kind of chore.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
- but anyway Pd's operating language is (and it will be for much time)
english. Since all help files are in english, it's not possible to go
beyond a certain level in Pd without coping with this.Do you mean it's not possible to translate help files ?
I guess it should be as possible as to translate anything else. but since
the "official language" is english, and all attached documents are
english, don't know how is feasible to translate everything and keep
things updated in any other language. unless many people have lots of free
time.
Having the object list in english slowly makes people get used to this reality
Having the object list translated slowly makes people get used to the possible future of translated help files.
guess so. be my guest, I'm not stopping anyone. just don't waste all the
time and energy in any uncoordenated effort, leaving in the end lots of
scattered information.
- I compiled this object list, and am fed up with it - it had to
be done with copy-paste.
I have made a tool to maintain an object list in several languages. It's what was used to generate gridflow/doc/index.pd. Currently I use it only for a single language, but it's already easy to plug alternate languages into it, and it sorts the object list alphabetically and keeps everything aligned, with the same spacing all over.
Just to make sure : by object list I mean something with short descriptions, as found when right-clicking in the background of a canvas. You mean the same thing, right ?
yes. http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/, "LIST OF OBJECTS"
this list is, in theory, already obsolete 5 minutes after being done. There are always new objects,
I don't think that there ought to be a single centrally-maintained list.
that was the state of Pd externals before Pd-ext appeared, and no one knew
exactly how many and which objects were available. I don't imagine having
things scattered around to be of advantage to any users or programmers out
there. something similar would logically apply to a general object list, I
haven't heard anyone complaining about the effort I've made in making a
big (unfinished) list of objects.
I also don't think that it ought to be in a format that makes you think something like "it's obsolete 5 minutes after being done" : a minor
update should feel like a minor update and not like a whole "oh no, not again !" kind of chore.
for now the original format is an excel file, hardly a recommendable
format for a dynamic list. someone had shown interest in making a drupal
online list server, but I haven't heard from him for over an year.
On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Vilson Vieira wrote:
yes, it's pt-br. Every translation is interesting not just for the native speakers of the target language, but even the original version could benefit from that. Translating a document we're revisioning the original one, so it's so natural to go back to that and include some contribution.
Yes. It's important that the translators are not just blindly translating everything they read. That way, it makes the translation effort more worth it without much of the cost of a separate review.
The cost of a separate review is that it's pushed back a long time because hey, it's not that urgent (it never is...). Having translations means the original manual ought to be rather solid, in order to not waste the translation effort.
I usually recommend the FLOSS Manual of Pure Data to new users, and they don't like so much when discovers that it's written just in english. for newcomers it's a pretext to run out.
indeed. it probably is a bigger problem than it seems, nowadays, simply because also many people wouldn't admit that English is a reason to run out, and so they'd mention any pretext other than English.
But even to someone who knows English very well, manuals written in English aren't as inviting as manuals written in one's own language.
Personally I don't like to read translations,
Is it that the translations are not good enough ?
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
-
Ariane stolfi -
Bernardo Barros -
Derek Holzer -
Gabi Thumé -
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
Ildomar Gomes de Carvalho Junior -
João Pais -
Martin Peach -
Mathieu Bouchard -
Pedro Lopes -
Vilson Vieira