Federico/mescalinum wrote that plugin. Donno if he reads this list
much. He's in #dataflow quite a bit.

.hc

On Sep 11, 2009, at 11:42 AM, João Pais wrote:

Hi,

looks nice. about the object category menu plugin:

• where did you get the categories? there was some discussion on the

pd-dev list some time ago about restructuring the external folders
into categories (which would make sense), but no decisions.

• how do you connect the contents of the /extra folder to the

contens in that list? in fact, how do you even keep notice of the contents of / extra? I also ask as the only person around that took the time to make a
list of the externals in /extra some time ago.

...

There is a small collection of some screenshots of the new GUI in
action. Add anything you think is worth documenting:

http://puredata.info/dev/PdGuiRewriteScreenshots

.hc

---

Looking at things from a more basic level, you can come up with a
more direct solution... It may sound small in theory, but it in
practice, it can change entire economies. - Amy Smith

---

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-- Friedenstr. 58 10249 Berlin (Deutschland) Tel +49 30 42020091 | Mob +49 162 6843570 Studio +49 30 69509190 jmmmpais@googlemail.com | skype: jmmmpjmmmp

The arc of history bends towards justice. - Dr. Martin Luther
King, Jr.

On Sep 12, 2009, at 3:22 PM, András Murányi wrote:

It looks so nice on the Mac...! ;o)

It's a pity it looks way less 21th Century here on Hardy... fyi I
have attached the screenshot.

Make you are are running Tcl/Tk 8.5 and it'll look much better.
Install tcl8.5 and tk8.5, then run: "update-alternatives --config wish" and choose wish8.5. Then Pd will
use the much improved Wish 8.5.

I have also mocked up a version with my ideas (which are based on my
rather limited knowledge of Pd). Please take a look at it.

Did you mock it up in Tcl?

• Afaik the IN/OUT meters are for the DSP so I would group them with

the DSP switch.

Makes sense.

• I would omit the IN/OUT meter switch. Can we? Or is this a CPU-hog?

I think its useful just to be able to have less distractions.

• I would suggest having some kind of MIDI IN/OUT LEDs... which

could also serve as switches in case you want to suspend MIDI
reception or transmission. In my graphics they are just simple
switches but I'm not sure it is possible to 'blink' those switches.
If not, then we could have separate switches and LEDs.

That also sounds useful for those who use MIDI. 'pd' is not currently
sending 'pd-gui' that info tho.

• A LOAD meter. Is this a CPU hog? If not, can we have it on the Pd

window? (It is quite hidden under the Media menu, imho also because
Media is a quite fuzzy name.)

That's a nice idea. It would require writing the Tcl code to get the
load from the OS, but that's probably easy.

• Console hide, clear. Let's try to have it somewhere right above

the console!

A clear button is ok, it is on the File menu. As for hide, I think
its easier to just have window resizing work well. With the pdwindow
in pd-gui-rewrite, you can manually resize it down to just the metters/ buttons.

.hc

Sorry the mockup is not very well worked out - I just wanted to
bring up these quick ideas... ;o)

Andras

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 6:35 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner
hans@at.or.at wrote:

There is a small collection of some screenshots of the new GUI in
action. Add anything you think is worth documenting:

http://puredata.info/dev/PdGuiRewriteScreenshots

.hc

---

Looking at things from a more basic level, you can come up with a
more direct solution... It may sound small in theory, but it in
practice, it can change entire economies. - Amy Smith

---

Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

<newPdUi.png><newPdUi- ideas.png>_______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

"Free software means you control what your computer does. Non-free
software means someone else controls that, and to some extent controls
you." - Richard M. Stallman

2009/9/13 András Murányi muranyia@gmail.com:

2009/9/13 Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at

...

It looks so nice on the Mac...! ;o)

It's a pity it looks way less 21th Century here on Hardy... fyi I have attached the screenshot.

Make you are are running Tcl/Tk 8.5 and it'll look much better.  Install tcl8.5 and tk8.5, then run: "update-alternatives --config wish" and choose wish8.5.  Then Pd will use the much improved Wish 8.5.

Thanks! Now fonts are anti-aliased. Plus the startup plugins started to work, which means that at least some of them don't work with tcl/tk<=8.4. I have attached a screenshot for your viewing pleasure.

...

I have also mocked up a version with my ideas (which are based on my rather limited knowledge of Pd). Please take a look at it.

Did you mock it up in Tcl?

Nay. Xara Xtreme ;o)

• Afaik the IN/OUT meters are for the DSP so I would group them with the DSP

switch.

...

Makes sense.

• I would omit the IN/OUT meter switch. Can we? Or is this a CPU-hog?

I think its useful just to be able to have less distractions.

Useful to have it? So that the meter doesn't distract you? Or useful to omit? So the switch doesn't distract you? ;o)

...

• I would suggest having some kind of MIDI IN/OUT LEDs... which could also

serve as switches in case you want to suspend MIDI reception or transmission. In my graphics they are just simple switches but I'm not sure it is possible to 'blink' those switches. If not, then we could have separate switches and LEDs.

That also sounds useful for those who use MIDI.  'pd' is not currently sending 'pd-gui' that info tho.

I'm one of the guys who don't use DSP, my output is nuttin-but-MIDI. (Now that I think there may be guys whos output is mainly to the network...)

...

• A LOAD meter. Is this a CPU hog? If not, can we have it on the Pd

window? (It is quite hidden under the Media menu, imho also because Media is a quite fuzzy name.)

That's a nice idea.  It would require writing the Tcl code to get the load from the OS, but that's probably easy.

Once we clean up the Media menu, we may be able to find a better name for it. Just my 2 cents.

...

• Console hide, clear. Let's try to have it somewhere right above the

console!

A clear button is ok, it is on the File menu.  As for hide, I think its easier to just have window resizing work well.  With the pdwindow in pd-gui-rewrite, you can manually resize it down to just the metters/buttons.

Yo, just a quick suggestion to make Pd a better Mac citizen – closing the console should just hide it (and you'd then be able to pull it up again from the Window menu). That plus a "Show Console on Startup" preference would make Pd much more "patch-redistribution-to-those-without-Pd-knowledge" friendly.

Sorry I can't offer code, hopefully I'll have time to return to the fold very soon! Luke

At the current version, i have 'Clear console' in the Edit menu but Hide console is gone. I think it could be kept however (regardless of what is the actual routine that it runs), and I even think it's not bad to provide it on the GUI and in the menu as well. Anyway, it's certainly good to have a control as close to the controlled item as possible, whenever possible.

BTW, I have a dream which is that the console is tabbed, and the default tab displays system messages, while for each [print PREFIX] a new tab is opened. That way messages get separated by PREFIX. It's just a silly dream, forget it ;op

...

.hc

Thanks for your time!

Andras

---

Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

On Sep 13, 2009, at 1:09 PM, András Murányi wrote:

2009/9/13 Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at

...

It looks so nice on the Mac...! ;o)

It's a pity it looks way less 21th Century here on Hardy... fyi I
have attached the screenshot.

Make you are are running Tcl/Tk 8.5 and it'll look much better.
Install tcl8.5 and tk8.5, then run: "update-alternatives --config wish" and choose wish8.5. Then Pd
will use the much improved Wish 8.5.

Thanks! Now fonts are anti-aliased. Plus the startup plugins started
to work, which means that at least some of them don't work with tcl/ tk<=8.4. I have attached a screenshot for your viewing pleasure.

...

I have also mocked up a version with my ideas (which are based on
my rather limited knowledge of Pd). Please take a look at it.

Did you mock it up in Tcl?

Nay. Xara Xtreme ;o)

...

• Afaik the IN/OUT meters are for the DSP so I would group them

with the DSP switch.

Makes sense.

...

• I would omit the IN/OUT meter switch. Can we? Or is this a CPU-hog?

I think its useful just to be able to have less distractions.

Useful to have it? So that the meter doesn't distract you? Or useful to omit? So the switch doesn't distract you? ;o)

...

• I would suggest having some kind of MIDI IN/OUT LEDs... which

could also serve as switches in case you want to suspend MIDI
reception or transmission. In my graphics they are just simple
switches but I'm not sure it is possible to 'blink' those switches.
If not, then we could have separate switches and LEDs.

That also sounds useful for those who use MIDI. 'pd' is not
currently sending 'pd-gui' that info tho.

I'm one of the guys who don't use DSP, my output is nuttin-but-MIDI.
(Now that I think there may be guys whos output is mainly to the
network...)

...

• A LOAD meter. Is this a CPU hog? If not, can we have it on the Pd

window? (It is quite hidden under the Media menu, imho also because
Media is a quite fuzzy name.)

That's a nice idea. It would require writing the Tcl code to get
the load from the OS, but that's probably easy.

Once we clean up the Media menu, we may be able to find a better
name for it. Just my 2 cents.

...

• Console hide, clear. Let's try to have it somewhere right above

the console!

A clear button is ok, it is on the File menu. As for hide, I think
its easier to just have window resizing work well. With the
pdwindow in pd-gui-rewrite, you can manually resize it down to just
the metters/buttons.

At the current version, i have 'Clear console' in the Edit menu but
Hide console is gone. I think it could be kept however (regardless
of what is the actual routine that it runs), and I even think it's
not bad to provide it on the GUI and in the menu as well. Anyway,
it's certainly good to have a control as close to the controlled
item as possible, whenever possible.

BTW, I have a dream which is that the console is tabbed, and the
default tab displays system messages, while for each [print PREFIX]
a new tab is opened. That way messages get separated by PREFIX. It's
just a silly dream, forget it ;op

Tabs in the Pd window would be very nice indeed. Someone just needs
to code it. :-D

.hc

.hc

Thanks for your time!

Andras <newPdUi-wish8.5.png>

Looking at things from a more basic level, you can come up with a more
direct solution... It may sound small in theory, but it in practice,
it can change entire economies. - Amy Smith

It looks so nice on the Mac...! ;o)

...

It's a pity it looks way less 21th Century here on Hardy...

Well, at least Carmen's peak-meters made it into a mainstream branch. (I didn't actually check that they are the same, maybe they aren't...)

...

fyi I have attached the screenshot.

I have attached another screenshot that has the original visual peak-meters from Carmen. Note how they were put on the same row to save space (usually i'd rather group them the other way, but here the point was to save some space).

Nice. However, I don't feel I need so much to save space above the Console. Maybe on some limited resolutions? Btw I can see it's a snapshot of 2009/09/06. Do I understand right that 1) dd is being actively developed these days 2) some code from it gets its way to pd?

Midi In/Out switches are an interesting concept. How did you think of that?

Do you understand why those switches were never added to Pd and no-one seemed to ever suggest them? (as far as I recall...)

;o) Yes I think I understand... so far it seems I am one of the very few midi-intensive folks out these days. On the other hand, pd's GUI has been pretty much simplistic so far, what I mean is that not many thing seem to have been suggested and added over the years.

Console hiding looks like a neat idea, but somehow, I never want it, because

it's important to watch the console all of the time, to figure out what's going on.

You're right. If I suddenly get console-phobia however, I have so many ways to hide it. Resizing is one of them.

• I would omit the IN/OUT meter switch. Can we? Or is this a CPU-hog?

...

Depends... I suppose it was more of a hog back when the switch was introduced. Computers are so much faster now. But it would be better to measure it than to speculate.

Cool. Unfortunately I've never done TCL and my C is somewhat archaic... that's why I cannot volunteer to do these.

In my graphics they are just simple switches but I'm not sure it is

...

possible to 'blink' those switches.

All switches are blinkable in the Linux version, and perhaps on all platforms, but it's not a good idea because the default looks of those switches are different from platform to platform and now they can vary according to theme. On Windows, the box is white and stays white, but on Linux, it defaults to the overall background colour, and turning it on makes it either dark grey or red. Given that, it's hard to also make it an indicator of something else at the same time, with colours that will be meaningful for everybody, etc.

But what would the indicator actually indicate?

They would blink on MIDI IN/OUT activity. The switches would enable/disable MIDI input/output.

If not, then we could have separate switches and LEDs. - A LOAD meter. Is

...

this a CPU hog?

Probably not any more than the peak meters, but this would have to be measured too.

If not, can we have it on the Pd window? (It is quite hidden under the

...

Media menu, imho also because Media is a quite fuzzy name.)

As you can see, I have removed the Media menu. The options in it have gone into "Preferences" in the File menu (or Apple menu); otoh the test-audio and load-meter patches are now accessible from the Help menu.

Cool! While I think I completely understand the advantages of having an independent development (namely DesireData) I will be personally happy to see you positively engaging in pd GUI development as well. (I hope you take it right!)

Thanks, Andras

On Sep 14, 2009, at 5:34 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:

--- On Mon, 9/14/09, András Murányi muranyia@gmail.com wrote:

...

From: András Murányi muranyia@gmail.com Subject: Re: [PD] new GUI screenshots To: "Mathieu Bouchard" matju@artengine.ca Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Monday, September 14, 2009, 9:38 PM

...

Nice. However, I don't feel I need so much to save space above the Console. Maybe on some limited resolutions?

One of slightly annoying things about the console is that has a large, awkward default size that makes it likely to get covered up when there are lots of subpatches open.

Would it be possible to get the console to pop-up when a message gets printed? By pop-up, I mean brought in front of all the other open patches, but behind the patch that has the focus.

-Jonathan

Try the Ctrl-R hot key, it brings the Pd window back and forth for
easy viewing and hiding.

.hc

You can't steal a gift. Bird gave the world his music, and if you can
hear it, you can have it. - Dizzy Gillespie

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:

Would it be possible to get the console to pop-up when a message gets printed? By pop-up, I mean brought in front of all the other open patches, but behind the patch that has the focus.

I just implemented this and checked it in. Check out "Popup Mode" in
the Window menu.

.hc

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

On Sep 18, 2009, at 2:50 AM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:

--- On Thu, 9/17/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at wrote:

...

From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at Subject: Re: [PD] new GUI screenshots To: "Mathieu Bouchard" matju@artengine.ca Cc: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com, pd-list@iem.at Date: Thursday, September 17, 2009, 4:55 AM

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:

...

Would it be possible to get the console to pop-up when

a message gets

...

printed? By pop-up, I mean brought in front of

all the other open

...

patches, but behind the patch that has the focus.

I just implemented this and checked it in. Check out "Popup Mode" in the Window menu.

Are these tcl scripts? I put them in the startup folder but I'm not getting a "Popup mode" option in the Window menu.

-Jonathan

I inlucded the popup mode directly in the GUI code, but plan on
splitting it out into a plugin to make it optional. You'll have to do
the 'svn up' thing to get the latest code, or wait for the Windows
nightly builds, which are almost working.

.hc

...

.hc

---

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Information wants to be free. -Stewart Brand

On Sep 14, 2009, at 3:38 PM, András Murányi wrote:

It looks so nice on the Mac...! ;o) It's a pity it looks way less 21th Century here on Hardy...

Well, at least Carmen's peak-meters made it into a mainstream
branch. (I didn't actually check that they are the same, maybe they
aren't...)

fyi I have attached the screenshot.

I have attached another screenshot that has the original visual peak- meters from Carmen. Note how they were put on the same row to save
space (usually i'd rather group them the other way, but here the
point was to save some space).

Nice. However, I don't feel I need so much to save space above the
Console. Maybe on some limited resolutions? Btw I can see it's a snapshot of 2009/09/06. Do I understand right
that 1) dd is being actively developed these days 2) some code from
it gets its way to pd?

DD is GPL and Pd is BSD so code can only flow Pd->DD.

Midi In/Out switches are an interesting concept. How did you think
of that? Do you understand why those switches were never added to Pd
and no-one seemed to ever suggest them? (as far as I recall...)

;o) Yes I think I understand... so far it seems I am one of the very
few midi-intensive folks out these days. On the other hand, pd's GUI
has been pretty much simplistic so far, what I mean is that not many
thing seem to have been suggested and added over the years.

Console hiding looks like a neat idea, but somehow, I never want it,
because it's important to watch the console all of the time, to
figure out what's going on.

You're right. If I suddenly get console-phobia however, I have so
many ways to hide it. Resizing is one of them.

• I would omit the IN/OUT meter switch. Can we? Or is this a CPU-hog?

Depends... I suppose it was more of a hog back when the switch was
introduced. Computers are so much faster now. But it would be better
to measure it than to speculate.

Cool. Unfortunately I've never done TCL and my C is somewhat
archaic... that's why I cannot volunteer to do these.

I knew nothing of Tcl before Pd. Its a little wierd but pretty easy.

.hc

In my graphics they are just simple switches but I'm not sure it is
possible to 'blink' those switches.

All switches are blinkable in the Linux version, and perhaps on all
platforms, but it's not a good idea because the default looks of
those switches are different from platform to platform and now they
can vary according to theme. On Windows, the box is white and stays
white, but on Linux, it defaults to the overall background colour,
and turning it on makes it either dark grey or red. Given that, it's
hard to also make it an indicator of something else at the same
time, with colours that will be meaningful for everybody, etc.

But what would the indicator actually indicate?

They would blink on MIDI IN/OUT activity. The switches would enable/disable MIDI input/output.

If not, then we could have separate switches and LEDs. - A LOAD
meter. Is this a CPU hog?

Probably not any more than the peak meters, but this would have to
be measured too.

If not, can we have it on the Pd window? (It is quite hidden under
the Media menu, imho also because Media is a quite fuzzy name.)

As you can see, I have removed the Media menu. The options in it
have gone into "Preferences" in the File menu (or Apple menu); otoh
the test-audio and load-meter patches are now accessible from the
Help menu.

Cool! While I think I completely understand the advantages of having
an independent development (namely DesireData) I will be personally
happy to see you positively engaging in pd GUI development as well.
(I hope you take it right!)

Thanks, Andras

---

Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

On Sep 14, 2009, at 8:32 PM, András Murányi wrote:

2009/9/15 Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at

...

Btw I can see it's a snapshot of 2009/09/06. Do I understand right
that 1) dd is being actively developed these days 2) some code from
it gets its way to pd?

DD is GPL and Pd is BSD so code can only flow Pd->DD.

Wow. Why?

...

Cool. Unfortunately I've never done TCL and my C is somewhat
archaic... that's why I cannot volunteer to do these.

I knew nothing of Tcl before Pd. Its a little wierd but pretty easy. [...]

---

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

;o) I took a look... but i cannot find many references to the
console in the sources. For sure I'm missing something...

btw i have found a glitch which is when i open certain patches and
hover some object the scrollbar starts rapidly dis/reappearing.

-- Muranyi Andras

The PD window code is all in pdwindow.tcl. The console log part is
the 'text' widget:

 text .pdwindow.text -relief raised -bd 2 -font {-size 10} \
     -highlightthickness 0 -borderwidth 1 -relief flat \
     -yscrollcommand ".pdwindow.scroll set" -width 60 \
     -undo true -autoseparators true -maxundo -1

As for the Media menu, I think it could be useful for putting your own
patches on, like the addmypatchstomedia.tcl plugin does:

http://puredata.info/dev/PdGuiRewriteScreenshots

.hc

Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally
for machines to execute.

• from Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

2009/9/15 Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at

On Sep 14, 2009, at 3:38 PM, András Murányi wrote:

Cool. Unfortunately I've never done TCL and my C is somewhat archaic... that's why I cannot volunteer to do these.

I knew nothing of Tcl before Pd. Its a little wierd but pretty easy.

So... TCL is weird indeed... ;o) I made up the tabs, but I don't want to brute-regex every message so I need to catch where [print] generates user-made messages. Can you help me with this? I've attached the tabs stuff at its current state - WARNING it doesn't make any sense at this point! It will require ttk/8.5 as it seems tabs were not available internally before 8.5.

On Sep 16, 2009, at 7:46 PM, András Murányi wrote:

...

...

...

BTW, I have a dream which is that the console is tabbed, and the
default tab displays system messages, while for each [print
PREFIX] a new tab is opened. That way messages get separated by
PREFIX. It's just a silly dream, forget it ;op

Tabs in the Pd window would be very nice indeed. Someone just
needs to code it. :-D .hc

...

I made up the tabs, but I don't want to brute-regex every message
so I need to catch where [print] generates user-made messages.

OK... It seems it is well buried in the C side. If I'm right, user messages are composed by print_anything() in x_interface.c which gives post() a single string which calls dopost() which finally calls pdtk_post in pdwindows.tcl. I see no much chance to supply additional information to the tcl
side, do you?

Great start! Tcl's a bit weird, but you can do a lot with a few lines
of code.

Sounds like you got it right. I think you'll have to brute regex it
in pdtk_post for this idea to work. But since its a plugin, I think
its ok if its a bit heavy since it can be easily disabled.

I think the easiest thing to do here would be to create your
own ::pdwindow::pdtk_post and then use the 'rename' command to swap
yours in for the standard one.

http://tcl.tk/man/tcl8.5/TclCmd/rename.htm

.hc

Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to
realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either
change them, or perish. -William Carlos Williams

Do any of the metering correspond to a standard (PPM, VU, BBC, etc)? Or are they ProTools style mystery meters?

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 7:48 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.atwrote:

On Sep 14, 2009, at 2:40 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:

On Sat, 12 Sep 2009, András Murányi wrote:

...

It looks so nice on the Mac...! ;o)

...

It's a pity it looks way less 21th Century here on Hardy...

Well, at least Carmen's peak-meters made it into a mainstream branch. (I didn't actually check that they are the same, maybe they aren't...)

They are IEMGUI peak meters.