Hi all,
I planning to do some video tracking in order to sonify some performance: a dancer and a kung fu form. I basically need to track different movements and connect them to some sounds.
I'm evaluating different technologies at the moment. Kinect looks like the best way to track body movement.
What's the best way to track body movements ? Is Kinect really the best solution ? What are other solutions ?
Cheers
Body tracking depends on the hardware you have:
is kinect the best way? no. but its awesomely cheap and non intrusive. Do you have 10k dollars to spend in a vicon (http://www.vicon.com/) motion tracker? They kill kinect accuracy in an eye blink.
Is there cheaper than kinect? Oh yeah. webcams are there for you. Ps3eye delivers 60 fps at an amazing cost, and if you want to spend more you have pointgrey cameras (also 60fps or more) or less phillips has a camera that i don't the model but gives an astonishing 90fps for 50 bucks. However camera solutions will require some computer vision processing effort (well.. so does kinect! even more), and you loose the depth information (Z) that kinect can offer.
As always. it depends on a complex equation that involves your skill, budget, desired application, needs (XYZ?), gestures or direct point mapping, realtime or post?
have fun, Pedro
Hi, I think in my humble opinion is the worst kinekt ... interactivity is not achieved suam reagent, the other day I saw the kids playing and seemed automata, emotionless, worried - robotic, incredible.
I have consulted many times this same issue and there are several ways to fix it, many libraries and patches, some simple, if you need to capture each of soon to be good to use gesture processing and the library connected via osc to pd. Also Gem or pididp or the same opencv ... take a look, if you can not help you solve it with some patch.
Best regards
José
2011/1/7 Pedro Lopes pedro.lopes@ist.utl.pt:
Body tracking depends on the hardware you have: is kinect the best way? no. but its awesomely cheap and non intrusive. Do you have 10k dollars to spend in a vicon (http://www.vicon.com/) motion tracker? They kill kinect accuracy in an eye blink. Is there cheaper than kinect? Oh yeah. webcams are there for you. Ps3eye delivers 60 fps at an amazing cost, and if you want to spend more you have pointgrey cameras (also 60fps or more) or less phillips has a camera that i don't the model but gives an astonishing 90fps for 50 bucks. However camera solutions will require some computer vision processing effort (well.. so does kinect! even more), and you loose the depth information (Z) that kinect can offer. As always. it depends on a complex equation that involves your skill, budget, desired application, needs (XYZ?), gestures or direct point mapping, realtime or post? have fun, Pedro
-- Pedro Lopes (MSc) contact: pedro.lopes@ist.utl.pt website: http://web.ist.utl.pt/Pedro.Lopes
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If yo can not solve i can help you....
JOsé
2011/1/7 Jose Luis Santorcuato santorcuato76@gmail.com:
Hi, I think in my humble opinion is the worst kinekt ... interactivity is not achieved suam reagent, the other day I saw the kids playing and seemed automata, emotionless, worried - robotic, incredible.
I have consulted many times this same issue and there are several ways to fix it, many libraries and patches, some simple, if you need to capture each of soon to be good to use gesture processing and the library connected via osc to pd. Also Gem or pididp or the same opencv ... take a look, if you can not help you solve it with some patch.
Best regards
José
2011/1/7 Pedro Lopes pedro.lopes@ist.utl.pt:
Body tracking depends on the hardware you have: is kinect the best way? no. but its awesomely cheap and non intrusive. Do you have 10k dollars to spend in a vicon (http://www.vicon.com/) motion tracker? They kill kinect accuracy in an eye blink. Is there cheaper than kinect? Oh yeah. webcams are there for you. Ps3eye delivers 60 fps at an amazing cost, and if you want to spend more you have pointgrey cameras (also 60fps or more) or less phillips has a camera that i don't the model but gives an astonishing 90fps for 50 bucks. However camera solutions will require some computer vision processing effort (well.. so does kinect! even more), and you loose the depth information (Z) that kinect can offer. As always. it depends on a complex equation that involves your skill, budget, desired application, needs (XYZ?), gestures or direct point mapping, realtime or post? have fun, Pedro
-- Pedro Lopes (MSc) contact: pedro.lopes@ist.utl.pt website: http://web.ist.utl.pt/Pedro.Lopes
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On 08/01/11 01:07, Jose Luis Santorcuato wrote:
Hi, I think in my humble opinion is the worst kinekt ... interactivity is not achieved suam reagent, the other day I saw the kids playing and seemed automata, emotionless, worried - robotic, incredible.
I haven't tryied kinect yet, so I cannot say how good it is.
I have consulted many times this same issue and there are several ways to fix it, many libraries and patches, some simple, if you need to capture each of soon to be good to use gesture processing and the library connected via osc to pd. Also Gem or pididp or the same opencv ... take a look, if you can not help you solve it with some patch.
So you proposo to compensate with some coding what kinect cannot do ?
On 07/01/11 23:14, Pedro Lopes wrote:
Body tracking depends on the hardware you have:
is kinect the best way? no. but its awesomely cheap and non intrusive. Do you have 10k dollars to spend in a vicon (http://www.vicon.com/) motion tracker? They kill kinect accuracy in an eye blink.
Is there cheaper than kinect? Oh yeah. webcams are there for you. Ps3eye delivers 60 fps at an amazing cost, and if you want to spend more you have pointgrey cameras (also 60fps or more) or less phillips has a camera that i don't the model but gives an astonishing 90fps for 50 bucks. However camera solutions will require some computer vision processing effort (well.. so does kinect! even more), and you loose the depth information (Z) that kinect can offer.
As always. it depends on a complex equation that involves your skill, budget, desired application, needs (XYZ?), gestures or direct point mapping, realtime or post?
yeah, that's why it's difficult to decide what to use!
I definitely need the depth information, as a kung fu form is moving in the space too; on the other side, kinect is probabily too slow. The pointgrey cameras or the one of philips sound really good, that's a pity that I loose the depth information.
The sensor and software of Primesense could another possible solution: http://www.primesense.com/
Thanks for answering
If you want 3d and really fast... mocap. But they cost a lot and you have to wear the tiny capture reflective IR balls.
Kinect is good, but latency exists. Games and developers do all sorts of filtering to simplify data and make it realtime usable.
On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:16 PM, marcello wallacechemical@gmail.com wrote:
On 07/01/11 23:14, Pedro Lopes wrote:
Body tracking depends on the hardware you have:
is kinect the best way? no. but its awesomely cheap and non intrusive. Do you have 10k dollars to spend in a vicon (http://www.vicon.com/) motion tracker? They kill kinect accuracy in an eye blink.
Is there cheaper than kinect? Oh yeah. webcams are there for you. Ps3eye delivers 60 fps at an amazing cost, and if you want to spend more you have pointgrey cameras (also 60fps or more) or less phillips has a camera that i don't the model but gives an astonishing 90fps for 50 bucks. However camera solutions will require some computer vision processing effort (well.. so does kinect! even more), and you loose the depth information (Z) that kinect can offer.
As always. it depends on a complex equation that involves your skill, budget, desired application, needs (XYZ?), gestures or direct point mapping, realtime or post?
yeah, that's why it's difficult to decide what to use!
I definitely need the depth information, as a kung fu form is moving in the space too; on the other side, kinect is probabily too slow. The pointgrey cameras or the one of philips sound really good, that's a pity that I loose the depth information.
The sensor and software of Primesense could another possible solution: http://www.primesense.com/
Thanks for answering
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
hello,
for the kung fu : movement are usually very fast. a camera is usually to slow to be useful.
i personally prefer using sensor like accelerometter on the body. you can use wiimote or some other (faster) sensors system.
here is a video of a performance i worked for few years ago. http://vimeo.com/4596629 sensors are used at time : 4'57 to 6'06 and from 6'43 to 7'23.
at 6'43, you can see that this kind of sensors are lot's more accurate that what you'll be able to do with a camera.
imo, camera are good to track body position. kinect look to have a sensing zone that is a bit limited.
Cyrille
Le 06/01/2011 13:28, Wallace a écrit :
Hi all,
I planning to do some video tracking in order to sonify some performance: a dancer and a kung fu form. I basically need to track different movements and connect them to some sounds.
I'm evaluating different technologies at the moment. Kinect looks like the best way to track body movement.
What's the best way to track body movements ? Is Kinect really the best solution ? What are other solutions ?
Cheers
On 08/01/11 14:25, cyrille henry wrote:
hello,
for the kung fu : movement are usually very fast. a camera is usually to slow to be useful.
i personally prefer using sensor like accelerometter on the body. you can use wiimote or some other (faster) sensors system.
here is a video of a performance i worked for few years ago. http://vimeo.com/4596629 sensors are used at time : 4'57 to 6'06 and from 6'43 to 7'23.
at 6'43, you can see that this kind of sensors are lot's more accurate that what you'll be able to do with a camera.
That's a good point about the sensors, I didn't know this camera-latency problem. WHat kind of sensor have you used in your work ? Have you used wireless sensors ?
imo, camera are good to track body position. kinect look to have a sensing zone that is a bit limited.
A combination of the two could be an idea, but then it's complicated to merge the data...
Thanks for the infos
Not defending anything, but just to remind 60 fps of a pointgrey camera is not slow. you probably will have a lot of trouble in dealing with 60 frames trying to cycle through your code every second. Accels and other hardware sensors are very useful too, and it very good results. But not the best for 3d positioning of a point in space, but excellent at giving the rotation of that point in space (i.e.: accels, gyros).
:)
On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:21 PM, marcello wallacechemical@gmail.com wrote:
On 08/01/11 14:25, cyrille henry wrote:
hello,
for the kung fu : movement are usually very fast. a camera is usually to slow to be useful.
i personally prefer using sensor like accelerometter on the body. you can use wiimote or some other (faster) sensors system.
here is a video of a performance i worked for few years ago. http://vimeo.com/4596629 sensors are used at time : 4'57 to 6'06 and from 6'43 to 7'23.
at 6'43, you can see that this kind of sensors are lot's more accurate that what you'll be able to do with a camera.
That's a good point about the sensors, I didn't know this camera-latency problem. WHat kind of sensor have you used in your work ? Have you used wireless sensors ?
imo, camera are good to track body position. kinect look to have a sensing zone that is a bit limited.
A combination of the two could be an idea, but then it's complicated to merge the data...
Thanks for the infos
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Le 08/01/2011 20:24, Pedro Lopes a écrit :
Not defending anything, but just to remind 60 fps of a pointgrey camera is not slow.
for gesture, i consider everything under 200Hz as slow. including the wiimote 100Hz.
by example, things like this have to be done at 1000Hz: http://vimeo.com/9598075 (we tried with slower system but it was not possible to be accurate enough).
you probably will have a lot of trouble in dealing with 60 frames trying to cycle through your code every second.
you have problem analysing the image, but dealing with the data is no problem.
Accels and other hardware sensors are very useful too, and it very good results.
yep
But not the best for 3d positioning of a point in space,
they will not provide any information regarding 3d positioning.
the question is what information do you really want... if you want the position of someone in space, then you have to use a camera. but you can also track he's movement with a wacom. if you want to track it's gesture, then you need something faster. faster than a camera.
but excellent at giving the rotation of that point in space (i.e.: accels, gyros).
yep.
cyrille
:)
On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:21 PM, marcello <wallacechemical@gmail.com mailto:wallacechemical@gmail.com> wrote:
On 08/01/11 14:25, cyrille henry wrote: > hello, > > for the kung fu : movement are usually very fast. a camera is usually to > slow to be useful. > > i personally prefer using sensor like accelerometter on the body. > you can use wiimote or some other (faster) sensors system. > > here is a video of a performance i worked for few years ago. > http://vimeo.com/4596629 > sensors are used at time : 4'57 to 6'06 and from 6'43 to 7'23. > > at 6'43, you can see that this kind of sensors are lot's more accurate > that what you'll be able to do with a camera. That's a good point about the sensors, I didn't know this camera-latency problem. WHat kind of sensor have you used in your work ? Have you used wireless sensors ? > imo, camera are good to track body position. > kinect look to have a sensing zone that is a bit limited. A combination of the two could be an idea, but then it's complicated to merge the data... Thanks for the infos _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at <mailto:Pd-list@iem.at> mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- Pedro Lopes (MSc) contact: pedro.lopes@ist.utl.pt mailto:pedro.lopes@ist.utl.pt website: http://web.ist.utl.pt/Pedro.Lopes
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there is an interesting whitepaper on this topic: http://www.palindrome.de/d2/C13.pdf
Am 09.01.2011 um 01:37 schrieb cyrille henry:
Le 08/01/2011 20:24, Pedro Lopes a écrit :
Not defending anything, but just to remind 60 fps of a pointgrey camera is not slow.
for gesture, i consider everything under 200Hz as slow. including the wiimote 100Hz.
by example, things like this have to be done at 1000Hz: http://vimeo.com/9598075 (we tried with slower system but it was not possible to be accurate enough).
you probably will have a lot of trouble in dealing with 60 frames trying to cycle through your code every second.
you have problem analysing the image, but dealing with the data is no problem.
Accels and other hardware sensors are very useful too, and it very good results.
yep
But not the best for 3d positioning of a point in space,
they will not provide any information regarding 3d positioning.
the question is what information do you really want... if you want the position of someone in space, then you have to use a camera. but you can also track he's movement with a wacom. if you want to track it's gesture, then you need something faster. faster than a camera.
but excellent at giving the rotation of that point in space (i.e.: accels, gyros).
yep.
cyrille
:)
On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:21 PM, marcello <wallacechemical@gmail.com mailto:wallacechemical@gmail.com> wrote:
On 08/01/11 14:25, cyrille henry wrote: > hello, > > for the kung fu : movement are usually very fast. a camera is usually to > slow to be useful. > > i personally prefer using sensor like accelerometter on the body. > you can use wiimote or some other (faster) sensors system. > > here is a video of a performance i worked for few years ago. > http://vimeo.com/4596629 > sensors are used at time : 4'57 to 6'06 and from 6'43 to 7'23. > > at 6'43, you can see that this kind of sensors are lot's more accurate > that what you'll be able to do with a camera.
That's a good point about the sensors, I didn't know this camera-latency problem. WHat kind of sensor have you used in your work ? Have you used wireless sensors ?
> imo, camera are good to track body position. > kinect look to have a sensing zone that is a bit limited.
A combination of the two could be an idea, but then it's complicated to merge the data...
Thanks for the infos
Pd-list@iem.at mailto:Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- Pedro Lopes (MSc) contact: pedro.lopes@ist.utl.pt mailto:pedro.lopes@ist.utl.pt website: http://web.ist.utl.pt/Pedro.Lopes
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Hi, As Cyrille says a good choice is the wii and its accelerometer, you can even hack and reduce weight and dimensions, the three-axis accelerometer or sensor flex not recommend to you, take away the freedom to be wired.
I heard that the camera play 3 works very well for tracking, even I could prove it. Maybe if you dont want hardware, it would be Gesture Processing library in connection with Pd via OSC.
That library can keep track and memorize your gesture …
There is something similar in pd?
Best regards
José
2011/1/8 Max abonnements@revolwear.com:
there is an interesting whitepaper on this topic: http://www.palindrome.de/d2/C13.pdf
Am 09.01.2011 um 01:37 schrieb cyrille henry:
Le 08/01/2011 20:24, Pedro Lopes a écrit :
Not defending anything, but just to remind 60 fps of a pointgrey camera is not slow.
for gesture, i consider everything under 200Hz as slow. including the wiimote 100Hz.
by example, things like this have to be done at 1000Hz: http://vimeo.com/9598075 (we tried with slower system but it was not possible to be accurate enough).
you probably will have a lot of trouble in dealing with 60 frames trying to cycle through your code every second.
you have problem analysing the image, but dealing with the data is no problem.
Accels and other hardware sensors are very useful too, and it very good results.
yep
But not the best for 3d positioning of a point in space,
they will not provide any information regarding 3d positioning.
the question is what information do you really want... if you want the position of someone in space, then you have to use a camera. but you can also track he's movement with a wacom. if you want to track it's gesture, then you need something faster. faster than a camera.
but excellent at giving the rotation of that point in space (i.e.: accels, gyros).
yep.
cyrille
:)
On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:21 PM, marcello <wallacechemical@gmail.com mailto:wallacechemical@gmail.com> wrote:
On 08/01/11 14:25, cyrille henry wrote: > hello, > > for the kung fu : movement are usually very fast. a camera is usually to > slow to be useful. > > i personally prefer using sensor like accelerometter on the body. > you can use wiimote or some other (faster) sensors system. > > here is a video of a performance i worked for few years ago. > http://vimeo.com/4596629 > sensors are used at time : 4'57 to 6'06 and from 6'43 to 7'23. > > at 6'43, you can see that this kind of sensors are lot's more accurate > that what you'll be able to do with a camera.
That's a good point about the sensors, I didn't know this camera-latency problem. WHat kind of sensor have you used in your work ? Have you used wireless sensors ?
> imo, camera are good to track body position. > kinect look to have a sensing zone that is a bit limited.
A combination of the two could be an idea, but then it's complicated to merge the data...
Thanks for the infos
_______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailto:Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- Pedro Lopes (MSc) contact: pedro.lopes@ist.utl.pt mailto:pedro.lopes@ist.utl.pt website: http://web.ist.utl.pt/Pedro.Lopes
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
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We have been playing around with tracking and PD for several years.
Camera solutions are relatively slow and inaccurate if you're thinking
about human body motion like martial arts stuff etc. Apart from camera
issues, it's also very dependent on lighting the scene and how you can
mark or detect points of interest in the visual field.
In simple systems like my Daphnia tracker ( http://softday.ie/nlutds/concept.html
), it works quite well.
For more complex tracking, combinations with accelerometers,
gyroscopes and magnetometers may help. See for example our Celeritas
demo, http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1279780
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayOOVGxzbec
(the WIMU is unfortunately not available commercially. Cheap solution,
use Wii stuff)
/Mikael
On 09/01/11 02:14, Max wrote:
there is an interesting whitepaper on this topic: http://www.palindrome.de/d2/C13.pdf
the entire palindrome.de website is really interesting, thanks for posting!
Completely agree with you cyrille.
the truth is: it depends on the purpose.
On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 12:37 AM, cyrille henry ch@chnry.net wrote:
Le 08/01/2011 20:24, Pedro Lopes a écrit :
Not defending anything, but just to remind 60 fps of a pointgrey camera is
not slow.
for gesture, i consider everything under 200Hz as slow. including the wiimote 100Hz.
by example, things like this have to be done at 1000Hz: http://vimeo.com/9598075 (we tried with slower system but it was not possible to be accurate enough).
you probably will have a lot of trouble in dealing with 60 frames trying
to cycle through your code every second.
you have problem analysing the image, but dealing with the data is no problem.
Accels and other hardware sensors are very useful too, and it very good
results.
yep
But not the best for 3d positioning of a point in space,
they will not provide any information regarding 3d positioning.
the question is what information do you really want... if you want the position of someone in space, then you have to use a camera. but you can also track he's movement with a wacom. if you want to track it's gesture, then you need something faster. faster than a camera.
but excellent at giving the rotation of that point in space (i.e.: accels,
gyros).
yep.
cyrille
:)
On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:21 PM, marcello <wallacechemical@gmail.commailto: wallacechemical@gmail.com> wrote:
On 08/01/11 14:25, cyrille henry wrote: > hello, > > for the kung fu : movement are usually very fast. a camera is usually to > slow to be useful. > > i personally prefer using sensor like accelerometter on the body. > you can use wiimote or some other (faster) sensors system. > > here is a video of a performance i worked for few years ago. > http://vimeo.com/4596629 > sensors are used at time : 4'57 to 6'06 and from 6'43 to 7'23. > > at 6'43, you can see that this kind of sensors are lot's more accurate > that what you'll be able to do with a camera.
That's a good point about the sensors, I didn't know this camera-latency problem. WHat kind of sensor have you used in your work ? Have you used wireless sensors ?
> imo, camera are good to track body position. > kinect look to have a sensing zone that is a bit limited.
A combination of the two could be an idea, but then it's complicated to merge the data...
Thanks for the infos
Pd-list@iem.at mailto:Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- Pedro Lopes (MSc) contact: pedro.lopes@ist.utl.pt mailto:pedro.lopes@ist.utl.pt
website: http://web.ist.utl.pt/Pedro.Lopes
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the truth is: it depends on the purpose.
Nothing Truer...
Not defending anything, but just to remind 60 fps of a pointgrey camera
is not slow.
for gesture, i consider everything under 200Hz as slow.
surely this is the case for percussion as in your example here:
by example, things like this have to be done at 1000Hz: http://vimeo.com/9598075
However, with a minimum of 75fps with a ps3 camera (you can get up to 120fps at 320x240...) you can get very responsive results: www.jaimeoliver.pe/sc2
It is clear that this project is not as concerned with precise triggers, it is more concerned with continuous control...
you just need to find out if what these space&temporal resolutions offer you what you're looking for. (+ solving less robust lighting, which is what really determines if video tracking is the way to go...)
best,
J
On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 12:37 AM, cyrille henry ch@chnry.net wrote:
Le 08/01/2011 20:24, Pedro Lopes a écrit :
Not defending anything, but just to remind 60 fps of a pointgrey camera
is not slow.
for gesture, i consider everything under 200Hz as slow. including the wiimote 100Hz.
by example, things like this have to be done at 1000Hz: http://vimeo.com/9598075 (we tried with slower system but it was not possible to be accurate enough).
you probably will have a lot of trouble in dealing with 60 frames trying
to cycle through your code every second.
you have problem analysing the image, but dealing with the data is no problem.
Accels and other hardware sensors are very useful too, and it very good
results.
yep
But not the best for 3d positioning of a point in space,
they will not provide any information regarding 3d positioning.
the question is what information do you really want... if you want the position of someone in space, then you have to use a camera. but you can also track he's movement with a wacom. if you want to track it's gesture, then you need something faster. faster than a camera.
but excellent at giving the rotation of that point in space (i.e.:
accels, gyros).
yep.
cyrille
:)
On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:21 PM, marcello <wallacechemical@gmail.commailto: wallacechemical@gmail.com> wrote:
On 08/01/11 14:25, cyrille henry wrote: > hello, > > for the kung fu : movement are usually very fast. a camera is usually to > slow to be useful. > > i personally prefer using sensor like accelerometter on the body. > you can use wiimote or some other (faster) sensors system. > > here is a video of a performance i worked for few years ago. > http://vimeo.com/4596629 > sensors are used at time : 4'57 to 6'06 and from 6'43 to 7'23. > > at 6'43, you can see that this kind of sensors are lot's more accurate > that what you'll be able to do with a camera.
That's a good point about the sensors, I didn't know this camera-latency problem. WHat kind of sensor have you used in your work ? Have you used wireless sensors ?
> imo, camera are good to track body position. > kinect look to have a sensing zone that is a bit limited.
A combination of the two could be an idea, but then it's complicated to merge the data...
Thanks for the infos
Pd-list@iem.at mailto:Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- Pedro Lopes (MSc) contact: pedro.lopes@ist.utl.pt mailto:pedro.lopes@ist.utl.pt
website: http://web.ist.utl.pt/Pedro.Lopes
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On 10/01/11 12:06, Jaime Oliver wrote:
the truth is: it depends on the purpose.
Nothing Truer...
Not defending anything, but just to remind 60 fps of a pointgrey
camera is not slow.
for gesture, i consider everything under 200Hz as slow.
surely this is the case for percussion as in your example here:
by example, things like this have to be done at 1000Hz: http://vimeo.com/9598075
However, with a minimum of 75fps with a ps3 camera (you can get up to 120fps at 320x240...) you can get very responsive results: www.jaimeoliver.pe/sc2 http://www.jaimeoliver.pe/sc2
It is clear that this project is not as concerned with precise triggers, it is more concerned with continuous control...
you just need to find out if what these space&temporal resolutions offer you what you're looking for. (+ solving less robust lighting, which is what really determines if video tracking is the way to go...)
It's hard to say if this solution can work for me. Maybe I should just buy a ps3 camera and try out.
Do you think that the ps3 camera can correctly track a body moving (using enough lighting)?
Best
It's hard to say if this solution can work for me. Maybe I should just buy a ps3 camera and try out.
they are cheap...
Do you think that the ps3 camera can correctly track a body moving (using enough lighting)?
correctly depends on the kind of data you want to get form the movement... if you need accurate tracking of something like slams and rolls as in cycrille's example, then no. if you need a continuous signal of arms and legs, then maybe. if you're thinking that a camera from far away will get the nuanced movement of fingers and hands, then probably no, etc.
does this make sense?
J
Best
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On 11/01/11 22:51, Jaime Oliver wrote:
It's hard to say if this solution can work for me. Maybe I should just buy a ps3 camera and try out.
they are cheap...
Do you think that the ps3 camera can correctly track a body moving (using enough lighting)?
correctly depends on the kind of data you want to get form the movement... if you need accurate tracking of something like slams and rolls as in cycrille's example, then no. if you need a continuous signal of arms and legs, then maybe. if you're thinking that a camera from far away will get the nuanced movement of fingers and hands, then probably no, etc.
does this make sense?
yeah, it does. I think it could be a good solution, thanks for the explanation.
When I get to try it out I'll let you know.
Best
Hello all,
I'm new to this list... I've just started out with PD, with body-tracking in mind actually.
I'm working with the kinect - you can get it working on your OS of choice, via the wonderful community effort at: http://openkinect.org/wiki/Main_Page
Seems like a natural fit for PD, and people are actually connecting it to the OpenNI project here: http://www.openni.org/
and there are some other skeleton tracking efforts that have been discussed on the openkinect google group.
Hope this helps!
Best, Ali
On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 6:06 AM, Jaime Oliver jaime.oliver2@gmail.comwrote:
the truth is: it depends on the purpose.
Nothing Truer...
Not defending anything, but just to remind 60 fps of a pointgrey camera
is not slow.
for gesture, i consider everything under 200Hz as slow.
surely this is the case for percussion as in your example here:
by example, things like this have to be done at 1000Hz: http://vimeo.com/9598075
However, with a minimum of 75fps with a ps3 camera (you can get up to 120fps at 320x240...) you can get very responsive results: www.jaimeoliver.pe/sc2
It is clear that this project is not as concerned with precise triggers, it is more concerned with continuous control...
you just need to find out if what these space&temporal resolutions offer you what you're looking for. (+ solving less robust lighting, which is what really determines if video tracking is the way to go...)
best,
J
On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 12:37 AM, cyrille henry ch@chnry.net wrote:
Le 08/01/2011 20:24, Pedro Lopes a écrit :
Not defending anything, but just to remind 60 fps of a pointgrey camera
is not slow.
for gesture, i consider everything under 200Hz as slow. including the wiimote 100Hz.
by example, things like this have to be done at 1000Hz: http://vimeo.com/9598075 (we tried with slower system but it was not possible to be accurate enough).
you probably will have a lot of trouble in dealing with 60 frames trying
to cycle through your code every second.
you have problem analysing the image, but dealing with the data is no problem.
Accels and other hardware sensors are very useful too, and it very good
results.
yep
But not the best for 3d positioning of a point in space,
they will not provide any information regarding 3d positioning.
the question is what information do you really want... if you want the position of someone in space, then you have to use a camera. but you can also track he's movement with a wacom. if you want to track it's gesture, then you need something faster. faster than a camera.
but excellent at giving the rotation of that point in space (i.e.:
accels, gyros).
yep.
cyrille
:)
On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:21 PM, marcello <wallacechemical@gmail.commailto: wallacechemical@gmail.com> wrote:
On 08/01/11 14:25, cyrille henry wrote: > hello, > > for the kung fu : movement are usually very fast. a camera is usually to > slow to be useful. > > i personally prefer using sensor like accelerometter on the body. > you can use wiimote or some other (faster) sensors system. > > here is a video of a performance i worked for few years ago. > http://vimeo.com/4596629 > sensors are used at time : 4'57 to 6'06 and from 6'43 to 7'23. > > at 6'43, you can see that this kind of sensors are lot's more accurate > that what you'll be able to do with a camera.
That's a good point about the sensors, I didn't know this camera-latency problem. WHat kind of sensor have you used in your work ? Have you used wireless sensors ?
> imo, camera are good to track body position. > kinect look to have a sensing zone that is a bit limited.
A combination of the two could be an idea, but then it's complicated to merge the data...
Thanks for the infos
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On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 8:21 PM, marcello wallacechemical@gmail.com wrote:
On 08/01/11 14:25, cyrille henry wrote:
hello,
for the kung fu : movement are usually very fast. a camera is usually to slow to be useful.
i personally prefer using sensor like accelerometter on the body. you can use wiimote or some other (faster) sensors system.
here is a video of a performance i worked for few years ago. http://vimeo.com/4596629 sensors are used at time : 4'57 to 6'06 and from 6'43 to 7'23.
at 6'43, you can see that this kind of sensors are lot's more accurate that what you'll be able to do with a camera.
That's a good point about the sensors, I didn't know this camera-latency problem.
I think they are two very different solutions. Not just technically. Append to the performer's body a piece of technology define your work esthetically too. It defines another kind of interaction, between the dancer and the environment or public and technology. It's not bad. It's about what do you want. In my last work we decided to use just camera tracking for example, in order to make evident the relationship with camera surveillance system to the public. I'm not saying with that I prefer camera. Depends witch kind of interaction do you want.
WHat kind of sensor have you used in your work ? Have you used wireless sensors ?
For something like this I'd use wiimotes.
imo, camera are good to track body position. kinect look to have a sensing zone that is a bit limited.
You can also use two different cameras at same time if you really need deep.And will be cheaper than kinect. But that also depend from the kind of interaction you want. You don't really always need all this data.
A combination of the two could be an idea, but then it's complicated to merge the data...
Thanks for the infos
My 2cents husk
Le 08/01/2011 20:21, marcello a écrit :
On 08/01/11 14:25, cyrille henry wrote:
hello,
for the kung fu : movement are usually very fast. a camera is usually to slow to be useful.
i personally prefer using sensor like accelerometter on the body. you can use wiimote or some other (faster) sensors system.
here is a video of a performance i worked for few years ago. http://vimeo.com/4596629 sensors are used at time : 4'57 to 6'06 and from 6'43 to 7'23.
at 6'43, you can see that this kind of sensors are lot's more accurate that what you'll be able to do with a camera.
That's a good point about the sensors, I didn't know this camera-latency problem.
it's not really latency, since you can have few latency with some camera, it's more about frequency.
WHat kind of sensor have you used in your work ?
mostly accelerometter. and some flex sensor.
Have you used wireless sensors ?
yes. it'swifi sensors.
imo, camera are good to track body position. kinect look to have a sensing zone that is a bit limited.
A combination of the two could be an idea, but then it's complicated to merge the data...
the 2 send very diferent kind of data. you don't have to merge them.
cheers c
Thanks for the infos
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