Re: [PD] Missing objects/methods in Pd WAS: objects with no alphanumerical names, how to build them?
On Apr 5, 2016, at 5:59 PM, pd-list-request@lists.iem.at wrote:
Joking aside, at least some externals that prove to be very useful or even fundamental (like zexy's sigops or [z~]) could find its way into the core now and then. To me, Pd vanilla seems to be overly conservative in this respect. On the other hand, I like that the set of objects is rather restricted, it's just about a handful of objects which I think are really missing and shouldn't require a user to get an external library.
And when there are already good externals which do an important job, why not include them? For example, Pd vanilla got its own set of OSC objects recently (nice!), but they are rather awkward to use and have far less functionality then, for example, the mrpeach objects (Miller actually refers to them in the help patch).
The answer is maintainability:
OF has 3 core members and 10+ affiliated core devs with commit access.
Pd has 1 core member with commit access.
I feel like OF right now is where PD was circle early 2000s. At some point it will stabilize since so many people rely on it and get tired of bugs and breaking changes introduced by *so* many commits by so many people. IMO the OF core is now way too large and parts of it should be spun off as addons.
It makes more sense to have a solid, slim core which you can add functionality to -> externals. This way, we get stability at a (small) loss of convenience by having to add an external. deken will make this relatively painless once the next Pd release comes out.
Dan Wilcox @danomatika https://twitter.com/danomatika danomatika.com http://danomatika.com/ robotcowboy.com http://robotcowboy.com/
The difference is, OF has way more dependencies and therefore stuff to keep up do date than Pd, just because it deals a lot with graphics and video. However, a pure container class like ofPixels, well designed once, shouldn't need much of maintance. Except for updating everything to a newer versions of the underlying programming language (C++11) :-p.
But since Pd is written in C, I can't believe that features like a sorting method for lists or a [atan2~] object will create any real maintainance overhead, even for a single core developer. Of course one should draw a line somewhere and I totally get you reasonings about keeping a core as compact as possible. But also a core should be as complete as possible, in a sense that you don't have to get an external library for really basic things which are offered by every decent programming language.
What I'm really wondering: How is SuperCollider actually being maintained? The language core alone is just huge!
I feel like OF right now is where PD was circle early 2000s.
It's, however, already an amazing piece of software! :-)
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 06. April 2016 um 06:48 Uhr Von: "Dan Wilcox" danomatika@gmail.com An: "Christof Ressi" christof.ressi@gmx.at Cc: Pd-List pd-list@lists.iem.at Betreff: Re: [PD] Missing objects/methods in Pd WAS: objects with no alphanumerical names, how to build them?
On Apr 5, 2016, at 5:59 PM, pd-list-request@lists.iem.at wrote: Joking aside, at least some externals that prove to be very useful or even fundamental (like zexy's sigops or [z~]) could find its way into the core now and then. To me, Pd vanilla seems to be overly conservative in this respect. On the other hand, I like that the set of objects is rather restricted, it's just about a handful of objects which I think are really missing and shouldn't require a user to get an external library.
And when there are already good externals which do an important job, why not include them? For example, Pd vanilla got its own set of OSC objects recently (nice!), but they are rather awkward to use and have far less functionality then, for example, the mrpeach objects (Miller actually refers to them in the help patch). The answer is maintainability: OF has 3 core members and 10+ affiliated core devs with commit access. Pd has 1 core member with commit access. I feel like OF right now is where PD was circle early 2000s. At some point it will stabilize since so many people rely on it and get tired of bugs and breaking changes introduced by *so* many commits by so many people. IMO the OF core is now way too large and parts of it should be spun off as addons. It makes more sense to have a solid, slim core which you can add functionality to -> externals. This way, we get stability at a (small) loss of convenience by having to add an external. deken will make this relatively painless once the next Pd release comes out.
Dan Wilcox @danomatika[https://twitter.com/danomatika] danomatika.com[http://danomatika.com] robotcowboy.com[http://robotcowboy.com]
Please pardon my ignorance and [OT] nature of this email--what does OF stand for and is there a link you may be able to share? Thank you.
It stands for openFrameworks http://openframeworks.cc/
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 06. April 2016 um 22:00 Uhr Von: "Ivica Ico Bukvic" ico@vt.edu An: pd-list@lists.iem.at Betreff: Re: [PD] Missing objects/methods in Pd WAS: objects with no alphanumerical names, how to build them?
Please pardon my ignorance and [OT] nature of this email--what does OF stand for and is there a link you may be able to share? Thank you.
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Thanks! Googling for OF was not particularly helpful :-)
On 4/6/2016 4:08 PM, Christof Ressi wrote:
It stands for openFrameworks http://openframeworks.cc/
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 06. April 2016 um 22:00 Uhr Von: "Ivica Ico Bukvic" ico@vt.edu An: pd-list@lists.iem.at Betreff: Re: [PD] Missing objects/methods in Pd WAS: objects with no alphanumerical names, how to build them?
Please pardon my ignorance and [OT] nature of this email--what does OF stand for and is there a link you may be able to share? Thank you.
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
.
OpenFrameworks. F
On 6 Apr 2016, at 21:00, Ivica Ico Bukvic ico@vt.edu wrote:
Please pardon my ignorance and [OT] nature of this email--what does OF stand for and is there a link you may be able to share? Thank you.
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
2016-04-06 1:48 GMT-03:00 Dan Wilcox danomatika@gmail.com:
It makes more sense to have a solid, slim core which you can add functionality to -> externals (...) deken will make this relatively painless once the next Pd release comes out.
so, what do we expect to change in the new release? and how painless would it be?
a quite painless scenario for me would be that "deken" already comes in vanilla, and when you find an external it downloads and unzip the folder into pd vanilla's extra :)
cheers
On Apr 8, 2016, at 12:14 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com wrote:
2016-04-06 1:48 GMT-03:00 Dan Wilcox <danomatika@gmail.com mailto:danomatika@gmail.com>: It makes more sense to have a solid, slim core which you can add functionality to -> externals (...) deken will make this relatively painless once the next Pd release comes out.
so, what do we expect to change in the new release? and how painless would it be?
a quite painless scenario for me would be that "deken" already comes in vanilla, and when you find an external it downloads and unzip the folder into pd vanilla's extra :)
Actually, deken has been in the pd vanilla git master branch for a few months now. Thus it will be part of the next major release (0.47). Also by then, there should be an “extended” meta package that will install a majority (if not all) of the externals that came with extended. So yes, that painless scenario has already been in the works for some time now. I’m not sure how you missed it on the list already :)
Dan Wilcox @danomatika https://twitter.com/danomatika danomatika.com http://danomatika.com/ robotcowboy.com http://robotcowboy.com/
2016-04-08 16:06 GMT-03:00 Dan Wilcox danomatika@gmail.com:
I’m not sure how you missed it on the list already :)
I seem to be active and on top of everything that's going on in the list, but I actually ignore most of the messages :D
or just completely forget...
2016-04-08 16:33 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com:
2016-04-08 16:06 GMT-03:00 Dan Wilcox danomatika@gmail.com:
I’m not sure how you missed it on the list already :)
I seem to be active and on top of everything that's going on in the list, but I actually ignore most of the messages :D
Oh I hear ya ;D By all means test deken, if you haven’t been already! Also, Katja is currently adding the ability to generate deken packages directly from the pd-lib-builder Makefile...
Dan Wilcox @danomatika https://twitter.com/danomatika danomatika.com http://danomatika.com/ robotcowboy.com http://robotcowboy.com/
On Apr 8, 2016, at 1:33 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com wrote:
or just completely forget...
2016-04-08 16:33 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Torres Porres <porres@gmail.com mailto:porres@gmail.com>: 2016-04-08 16:06 GMT-03:00 Dan Wilcox <danomatika@gmail.com mailto:danomatika@gmail.com>:
I’m not sure how you missed it on the list already :)
I seem to be active and on top of everything that's going on in the list, but I actually ignore most of the messages :D
2016-04-08 16:35 GMT-03:00 Dan Wilcox danomatika@gmail.com:
Oh I hear ya ;D By all means test deken, if you haven’t been already! Also, Katja is currently adding the ability to generate deken packages directly from the pd-lib-builder Makefile...
I have tested deken ;) and I have been using pd-lib-builder which I have to say it's incredibly awesome. Now I can understand all the work that was done to port cyclone from the old build system to this new one - what a blessing.
Generating deken packages directly from it is such great news that would seem just too good to be true :)
This is all making things really painless to newbies like me
Thank you developers!
cheers
Dan Wilcox @danomatika https://twitter.com/danomatika danomatika.com robotcowboy.com
On Apr 8, 2016, at 1:33 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com wrote:
or just completely forget...
2016-04-08 16:33 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com:
2016-04-08 16:06 GMT-03:00 Dan Wilcox danomatika@gmail.com:
I’m not sure how you missed it on the list already :)
I seem to be active and on top of everything that's going on in the list, but I actually ignore most of the messages :D
Yes, thanks to Chris McCormick, Katja, Fred Jan, IOhannes, et al really! I’m just the messenger who peeks at all the updates on GitHub.
Dan Wilcox @danomatika https://twitter.com/danomatika danomatika.com http://danomatika.com/ robotcowboy.com http://robotcowboy.com/
On Apr 8, 2016, at 1:49 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com wrote:
2016-04-08 16:35 GMT-03:00 Dan Wilcox <danomatika@gmail.com mailto:danomatika@gmail.com>: Oh I hear ya ;D By all means test deken, if you haven’t been already! Also, Katja is currently adding the ability to generate deken packages directly from the pd-lib-builder Makefile...
I have tested deken ;) and I have been using pd-lib-builder which I have to say it's incredibly awesome. Now I can understand all the work that was done to port cyclone from the old build system to this new one - what a blessing.
Generating deken packages directly from it is such great news that would seem just too good to be true :)
This is all making things really painless to newbies like me
Thank you developers!
cheers
Dan Wilcox @danomatika https://twitter.com/danomatika danomatika.com http://danomatika.com/ robotcowboy.com http://robotcowboy.com/
On Apr 8, 2016, at 1:33 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres <porres@gmail.com mailto:porres@gmail.com> wrote:
or just completely forget...
2016-04-08 16:33 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Torres Porres <porres@gmail.com mailto:porres@gmail.com>: 2016-04-08 16:06 GMT-03:00 Dan Wilcox <danomatika@gmail.com mailto:danomatika@gmail.com>:
I’m not sure how you missed it on the list already :)
I seem to be active and on top of everything that's going on in the list, but I actually ignore most of the messages :D
-
Alexandre Torres Porres -
Christof Ressi -
Dan Wilcox -
Frédéric Dufeu -
Ivica Ico Bukvic