Hi Katja one of these would do it - check with Thomann tech support for gain issues (these are Instrument Level input) They should be fine however as active guitar pickups (like heavy style EMG pickups) output quite high levels. These type of wireless systems tend to be very rugged, have excellent sound quality and long battery life - and you'll want these things.
http://www.thomann.de/ie/cat.html?gf=wireless_for_guitar_bass&oa=pra
Rich Duckworth Lecturer in Music Technology Department of Music House 5 Trinity College Dublin 2 Ireland Tel 353 1 896 1500
"Digital? Is that the thing where they take a good old sine wave and they chop it up into little bits?" --- Rupert Neve
Message: 3 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:53:43 +0100 From: katja katjavetter@gmail.com Subject: [PD] wireless audio from Pd to PA system To: pd-list pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: CAFY0eapPSKfw+gVaxuTr7exHqLiG+pTdu8Rk6SNTraLiys2Msg@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
For a wearable live performance computer, I am looking into the options of sending wireless audio from Pd to a PA sound system and other listeners.
In a first experiment I've tried a Linex FM transmitter. Audio quality is good enough, and FM transmitters do not introduce latency. This option is cheap and flexible, as the signal can be received by simple radio's, which are even built into cell phones and media players. I would need to boost the transmission a bit to make it more reliable. This will of course make the equipment illegal. Even then, the risk that someone else is transmitting a stronger signal on the channel can not be excluded.
Another option could be to send audio over Wifi. This would require WLAN to be available, and one extra computer (with audio interface) as a receiver. To avoid extra latency the audio should be sent uncompressed, like [udpsend~] / [udpreceive~] can do it. This has the risk of packet loss and serious dropouts.
I've been searching for 2.4 GHz wireless music receivers and found things like this: http://www.sitecom.com/en/wireless-music-streamer/wl-061/p/203. They seem to act like external soundcards for your computer. In Linux though I've never managed to properly connect multiple soundcards with Pd (in OSX it's easy using the Aggregate Device Editor from Audio MIDI Setup). Also I guess these devices introduce huge latency. With audio over bluetooth headsets I've experienced latencies up to a second.
Does anyone use a satisfactory method in practice, to send audio from Pd without wires?
Thanks, Katja
Pd-list mailing list Pd-list@iem.at to manage your subscription (including un-subscription) see http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
End of Pd-list Digest, Vol 95, Issue 152
hello,
those are good for what they have been designed for and it depends on what you mean by "exellent sound quality"
I've made few tests on those few years ago and the bandwidth could be good enough to transmit guitar/bass signal but nothing else for me
a
-- do it yourself http://antoine.villeret.free.fr
2013/2/28 richard duckworth richduckworth@yahoo.com
Hi Katja one of these would do it - check with Thomann tech support for gain issues (these are Instrument Level input) They should be fine however as active guitar pickups (like heavy style EMG pickups) output quite high levels. These type of wireless systems tend to be very rugged, have excellent sound quality and long battery life - and you'll want these things.
http://www.thomann.de/ie/cat.html?gf=wireless_for_guitar_bass&oa=pra
Rich Duckworth Lecturer in Music Technology Department of Music House 5 Trinity College Dublin 2 Ireland Tel 353 1 896 1500
"Digital? Is that the thing where they take a good old sine wave and they chop it up into little bits?" --- Rupert Neve
Message: 3 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:53:43 +0100 From: katja katjavetter@gmail.com Subject: [PD] wireless audio from Pd to PA system To: pd-list pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: CAFY0eapPSKfw+gVaxuTr7exHqLiG+pTdu8Rk6SNTraLiys2Msg@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
For a wearable live performance computer, I am looking into the options of sending wireless audio from Pd to a PA sound system and other listeners.
In a first experiment I've tried a Linex FM transmitter. Audio quality is good enough, and FM transmitters do not introduce latency. This option is cheap and flexible, as the signal can be received by simple radio's, which are even built into cell phones and media players. I would need to boost the transmission a bit to make it more reliable. This will of course make the equipment illegal. Even then, the risk that someone else is transmitting a stronger signal on the channel can not be excluded.
Another option could be to send audio over Wifi. This would require WLAN to be available, and one extra computer (with audio interface) as a receiver. To avoid extra latency the audio should be sent uncompressed, like [udpsend~] / [udpreceive~] can do it. This has the risk of packet loss and serious dropouts.
I've been searching for 2.4 GHz wireless music receivers and found things like this: http://www.sitecom.com/en/wireless-music-streamer/wl-061/p/203. They seem to act like external soundcards for your computer. In Linux though I've never managed to properly connect multiple soundcards with Pd (in OSX it's easy using the Aggregate Device Editor from Audio MIDI Setup). Also I guess these devices introduce huge latency. With audio over bluetooth headsets I've experienced latencies up to a second.
Does anyone use a satisfactory method in practice, to send audio from Pd without wires?
Thanks, Katja
Pd-list mailing list Pd-list@iem.at to manage your subscription (including un-subscription) see http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
End of Pd-list Digest, Vol 95, Issue 152
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Thanks everyone for your answers.
The case is unconventional because a stereo line signal must be sent from the computer. Professional wireless systems assume mic or instrument. Consumer systems do transmit stereo signal, but without bothering too much about latency.
Frankly, I did not expect the difficulty to find a good solution. Initially I wanted the wearable computer for a music video which is to be recorded live with sounds from natural objects. I bought the FM transmitter so my cameraman will be able to hear the music while he's filming. For this purpose it is ideal. Then I thought it would be good to use the computer in it's wearable mode for public performance. I figured that one of the many wireless solutions would suit the purpose, but didn't reckon with the unusual requirements.
Further searching brought me to a new technology 'PurePath' from Texas Instruments. It has a range comparable with WiFi (30m), while it seems to work with paired devices as in Bluetooth. I haven't seen consumer products with this technology, but development kits are available. A rather convincing demo is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YsnZQUfVGs
If this system can work with low latency it could be perfect for wireless Pd.
Katja
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Antoine Villeret < antoine.villeret@gmail.com> wrote:
hello,
those are good for what they have been designed for and it depends on what you mean by "exellent sound quality"
I've made few tests on those few years ago and the bandwidth could be good enough to transmit guitar/bass signal but nothing else for me
a
-- do it yourself http://antoine.villeret.free.fr
2013/2/28 richard duckworth richduckworth@yahoo.com
Hi Katja one of these would do it - check with Thomann tech support for gain issues (these are Instrument Level input) They should be fine however as active guitar pickups (like heavy style EMG pickups) output quite high levels. These type of wireless systems tend to be very rugged, have excellent sound quality and long battery life - and you'll want these things.
http://www.thomann.de/ie/cat.html?gf=wireless_for_guitar_bass&oa=pra
Rich Duckworth Lecturer in Music Technology Department of Music House 5 Trinity College Dublin 2 Ireland Tel 353 1 896 1500
"Digital? Is that the thing where they take a good old sine wave and they chop it up into little bits?" --- Rupert Neve
Message: 3 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:53:43 +0100 From: katja katjavetter@gmail.com Subject: [PD] wireless audio from Pd to PA system To: pd-list pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: CAFY0eapPSKfw+gVaxuTr7exHqLiG+pTdu8Rk6SNTraLiys2Msg@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
For a wearable live performance computer, I am looking into the options of sending wireless audio from Pd to a PA sound system and other listeners.
In a first experiment I've tried a Linex FM transmitter. Audio quality is good enough, and FM transmitters do not introduce latency. This option is cheap and flexible, as the signal can be received by simple radio's, which are even built into cell phones and media players. I would need to boost the transmission a bit to make it more reliable. This will of course make the equipment illegal. Even then, the risk that someone else is transmitting a stronger signal on the channel can not be excluded.
Another option could be to send audio over Wifi. This would require WLAN to be available, and one extra computer (with audio interface) as a receiver. To avoid extra latency the audio should be sent uncompressed, like [udpsend~] / [udpreceive~] can do it. This has the risk of packet loss and serious dropouts.
I've been searching for 2.4 GHz wireless music receivers and found things like this: http://www.sitecom.com/en/wireless-music-streamer/wl-061/p/203. They seem to act like external soundcards for your computer. In Linux though I've never managed to properly connect multiple soundcards with Pd (in OSX it's easy using the Aggregate Device Editor from Audio MIDI Setup). Also I guess these devices introduce huge latency. With audio over bluetooth headsets I've experienced latencies up to a second.
Does anyone use a satisfactory method in practice, to send audio from Pd without wires?
Thanks, Katja
Pd-list mailing list Pd-list@iem.at to manage your subscription (including un-subscription) see http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
End of Pd-list Digest, Vol 95, Issue 152
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
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Hi,
I have a rather old pair of Sennheiser e500 wireless systems (ENG type, portable on both ends). On the transmitter, there is an option for line level. I guess the newer versions keep that option. At least this does work for balanced line levels with the appropriate cable and the gain/sensitivity set to its lowest setting. It's rather common to use wireless between an ENG mixer and a camera.
Hope this helps Cheers Pierre-Olivier
On 01/03/2013 13:19, katja wrote:
Thanks everyone for your answers.
The case is unconventional because a stereo line signal must be sent from the computer. Professional wireless systems assume mic or instrument. Consumer systems do transmit stereo signal, but without bothering too much about latency.
Frankly, I did not expect the difficulty to find a good solution. Initially I wanted the wearable computer for a music video which is to be recorded live with sounds from natural objects. I bought the FM transmitter so my cameraman will be able to hear the music while he's filming. For this purpose it is ideal. Then I thought it would be good to use the computer in it's wearable mode for public performance. I figured that one of the many wireless solutions would suit the purpose, but didn't reckon with the unusual requirements.
Further searching brought me to a new technology 'PurePath' from Texas Instruments. It has a range comparable with WiFi (30m), while it seems to work with paired devices as in Bluetooth. I haven't seen consumer products with this technology, but development kits are available. A rather convincing demo is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YsnZQUfVGs
If this system can work with low latency it could be perfect for wireless Pd.
Katja
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Antoine Villeret <antoine.villeret@gmail.com mailto:antoine.villeret@gmail.com> wrote:
hello, those are good for what they have been designed for and it depends on what you mean by "exellent sound quality" I've made few tests on those few years ago and the bandwidth could be good enough to transmit guitar/bass signal but nothing else for me + a -- do it yourself http://antoine.villeret.free.fr 2013/2/28 richard duckworth <richduckworth@yahoo.com <mailto:richduckworth@yahoo.com>> Hi Katja one of these would do it - check with Thomann tech support for gain issues (these are Instrument Level input) They should be fine however as active guitar pickups (like heavy style EMG pickups) output quite high levels. These type of wireless systems tend to be very rugged, have excellent sound quality and long battery life - and you'll want these things. http://www.thomann.de/ie/cat.html?gf=wireless_for_guitar_bass&oa=pra Message: 3 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:53:43 +0100 From: katja <katjavetter@gmail.com <mailto:katjavetter@gmail.com>> Subject: [PD] wireless audio from Pd to PA system To: pd-list <pd-list@iem.at <mailto:pd-list@iem.at>> Message-ID: <CAFY0eapPSKfw+gVaxuTr7exHqLiG+pTdu8Rk6SNTraLiys2Msg@mail.gmail.com <mailto:pTdu8Rk6SNTraLiys2Msg@mail.gmail.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 For a wearable live performance computer, I am looking into the options of sending wireless audio from Pd to a PA sound system and other listeners. In a first experiment I've tried a Linex FM transmitter. Audio quality is good enough, and FM transmitters do not introduce latency. This option is cheap and flexible, as the signal can be received by simple radio's, which are even built into cell phones and media players. I would need to boost the transmission a bit to make it more reliable. This will of course make the equipment illegal. Even then, the risk that someone else is transmitting a stronger signal on the channel can not be excluded. Another option could be to send audio over Wifi. This would require WLAN to be available, and one extra computer (with audio interface) as a receiver. To avoid extra latency the audio should be sent uncompressed, like [udpsend~] / [udpreceive~] can do it. This has the risk of packet loss and serious dropouts. I've been searching for 2.4 GHz wireless music receivers and found things like this: http://www.sitecom.com/en/wireless-music-streamer/wl-061/p/203. They seem to act like external soundcards for your computer. In Linux though I've never managed to properly connect multiple soundcards with Pd (in OSX it's easy using the Aggregate Device Editor from Audio MIDI Setup). Also I guess these devices introduce huge latency. With audio over bluetooth headsets I've experienced latencies up to a second. Does anyone use a satisfactory method in practice, to send audio from Pd without wires? Thanks, Katja
Pierre-Olivier is right, most of transmitter have a line switch, or at least a sensitivity button to accepts line level Some of them works with stereo input but you can also use 2 mono transmitters for that
Cheers
a
-- do it yourself http://antoine.villeret.free.fr
2013/3/1 Pierre-Olivier Boulant po.boulant@free.fr
Hi,
I have a rather old pair of Sennheiser e500 wireless systems (ENG type, portable on both ends). On the transmitter, there is an option for line level. I guess the newer versions keep that option. At least this does work for balanced line levels with the appropriate cable and the gain/sensitivity set to its lowest setting. It's rather common to use wireless between an ENG mixer and a camera.
Hope this helps Cheers Pierre-Olivier
On 01/03/2013 13:19, katja wrote:
Thanks everyone for your answers.
The case is unconventional because a stereo line signal must be sent from the computer. Professional wireless systems assume mic or instrument. Consumer systems do transmit stereo signal, but without bothering too much about latency.
Frankly, I did not expect the difficulty to find a good solution. Initially I wanted the wearable computer for a music video which is to be recorded live with sounds from natural objects. I bought the FM transmitter so my cameraman will be able to hear the music while he's filming. For this purpose it is ideal. Then I thought it would be good to use the computer in it's wearable mode for public performance. I figured that one of the many wireless solutions would suit the purpose, but didn't reckon with the unusual requirements.
Further searching brought me to a new technology 'PurePath' from Texas Instruments. It has a range comparable with WiFi (30m), while it seems to work with paired devices as in Bluetooth. I haven't seen consumer products with this technology, but development kits are available. A rather convincing demo is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YsnZQUfVGs
If this system can work with low latency it could be perfect for wireless Pd.
Katja
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Antoine Villeret < antoine.villeret@gmail.com> wrote:
hello,
those are good for what they have been designed for and it depends on what you mean by "exellent sound quality"
I've made few tests on those few years ago and the bandwidth could be good enough to transmit guitar/bass signal but nothing else for me
a
-- do it yourself http://antoine.villeret.free.fr
2013/2/28 richard duckworth richduckworth@yahoo.com
Hi Katja one of these would do it - check with Thomann tech support for gain issues (these are Instrument Level input) They should be fine however as active guitar pickups (like heavy style EMG pickups) output quite high levels. These type of wireless systems tend to be very rugged, have excellent sound quality and long battery life - and you'll want these things.
http://www.thomann.de/ie/cat.html?gf=wireless_for_guitar_bass&oa=pra
Message: 3 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:53:43 +0100 From: katja katjavetter@gmail.com Subject: [PD] wireless audio from Pd to PA system To: pd-list pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: CAFY0eapPSKfw+gVaxuTr7exHqLiG+pTdu8Rk6SNTraLiys2Msg@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
For a wearable live performance computer, I am looking into the options of sending wireless audio from Pd to a PA sound system and other listeners.
In a first experiment I've tried a Linex FM transmitter. Audio quality is good enough, and FM transmitters do not introduce latency. This option is cheap and flexible, as the signal can be received by simple radio's, which are even built into cell phones and media players. I would need to boost the transmission a bit to make it more reliable. This will of course make the equipment illegal. Even then, the risk that someone else is transmitting a stronger signal on the channel can not be excluded.
Another option could be to send audio over Wifi. This would require WLAN to be available, and one extra computer (with audio interface) as a receiver. To avoid extra latency the audio should be sent uncompressed, like [udpsend~] / [udpreceive~] can do it. This has the risk of packet loss and serious dropouts.
I've been searching for 2.4 GHz wireless music receivers and found things like this: http://www.sitecom.com/en/wireless-music-streamer/wl-061/p/203. They seem to act like external soundcards for your computer. In Linux though I've never managed to properly connect multiple soundcards with Pd (in OSX it's easy using the Aggregate Device Editor from Audio MIDI Setup). Also I guess these devices introduce huge latency. With audio over bluetooth headsets I've experienced latencies up to a second.
Does anyone use a satisfactory method in practice, to send audio from Pd without wires?
Thanks, Katja
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Found more info about TI's PurePath wireless. Latency of wireless transmission is 768 samples minimum. Added to this must be the latencies of ad/da conversion.
http://e2e.ti.com/support/low_power_rf/f/382/t/110331.aspx
Forget about it, this concept is only useful for home entertainment.
Katja
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 1:19 PM, katja katjavetter@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks everyone for your answers.
The case is unconventional because a stereo line signal must be sent from the computer. Professional wireless systems assume mic or instrument. Consumer systems do transmit stereo signal, but without bothering too much about latency.
Frankly, I did not expect the difficulty to find a good solution. Initially I wanted the wearable computer for a music video which is to be recorded live with sounds from natural objects. I bought the FM transmitter so my cameraman will be able to hear the music while he's filming. For this purpose it is ideal. Then I thought it would be good to use the computer in it's wearable mode for public performance. I figured that one of the many wireless solutions would suit the purpose, but didn't reckon with the unusual requirements.
Further searching brought me to a new technology 'PurePath' from Texas Instruments. It has a range comparable with WiFi (30m), while it seems to work with paired devices as in Bluetooth. I haven't seen consumer products with this technology, but development kits are available. A rather convincing demo is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YsnZQUfVGs
If this system can work with low latency it could be perfect for wireless Pd.
Katja
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Antoine Villeret < antoine.villeret@gmail.com> wrote:
hello,
those are good for what they have been designed for and it depends on what you mean by "exellent sound quality"
I've made few tests on those few years ago and the bandwidth could be good enough to transmit guitar/bass signal but nothing else for me
a
-- do it yourself http://antoine.villeret.free.fr
2013/2/28 richard duckworth richduckworth@yahoo.com
Hi Katja one of these would do it - check with Thomann tech support for gain issues (these are Instrument Level input) They should be fine however as active guitar pickups (like heavy style EMG pickups) output quite high levels. These type of wireless systems tend to be very rugged, have excellent sound quality and long battery life - and you'll want these things.
http://www.thomann.de/ie/cat.html?gf=wireless_for_guitar_bass&oa=pra
Rich Duckworth Lecturer in Music Technology Department of Music House 5 Trinity College Dublin 2 Ireland Tel 353 1 896 1500
"Digital? Is that the thing where they take a good old sine wave and they chop it up into little bits?" --- Rupert Neve
Message: 3 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:53:43 +0100 From: katja katjavetter@gmail.com Subject: [PD] wireless audio from Pd to PA system To: pd-list pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: CAFY0eapPSKfw+gVaxuTr7exHqLiG+pTdu8Rk6SNTraLiys2Msg@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
For a wearable live performance computer, I am looking into the options of sending wireless audio from Pd to a PA sound system and other listeners.
In a first experiment I've tried a Linex FM transmitter. Audio quality is good enough, and FM transmitters do not introduce latency. This option is cheap and flexible, as the signal can be received by simple radio's, which are even built into cell phones and media players. I would need to boost the transmission a bit to make it more reliable. This will of course make the equipment illegal. Even then, the risk that someone else is transmitting a stronger signal on the channel can not be excluded.
Another option could be to send audio over Wifi. This would require WLAN to be available, and one extra computer (with audio interface) as a receiver. To avoid extra latency the audio should be sent uncompressed, like [udpsend~] / [udpreceive~] can do it. This has the risk of packet loss and serious dropouts.
I've been searching for 2.4 GHz wireless music receivers and found things like this: http://www.sitecom.com/en/wireless-music-streamer/wl-061/p/203. They seem to act like external soundcards for your computer. In Linux though I've never managed to properly connect multiple soundcards with Pd (in OSX it's easy using the Aggregate Device Editor from Audio MIDI Setup). Also I guess these devices introduce huge latency. With audio over bluetooth headsets I've experienced latencies up to a second.
Does anyone use a satisfactory method in practice, to send audio from Pd without wires?
Thanks, Katja
Pd-list mailing list Pd-list@iem.at to manage your subscription (including un-subscription) see http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
End of Pd-list Digest, Vol 95, Issue 152
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OMG - that's really high! Maybe Tranz have a belt holder solution - they do look kind of bulky though! Maybe worth dropping them a line, see if they'll help the Pd community
Rich Duckworth Lecturer in Music Technology Department of Music House 5 Trinity College Dublin 2 Ireland Tel 353 1 896 1500
"Digital? Is that the thing where they take a good old sine wave and they chop it up into little bits?" --- Rupert Neve
From: katja katjavetter@gmail.com To: Antoine Villeret antoine.villeret@gmail.com Cc: richard duckworth richduckworth@yahoo.com; "pd-list@iem.at" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, 1 March 2013, 13:12 Subject: Re: [PD] wireless audio from Pd to PA system (katja)
Found more info about TI's PurePath wireless. Latency of wireless transmission is 768 samples minimum. Added to this must be the latencies of ad/da conversion.
http://e2e.ti.com/support/low_power_rf/f/382/t/110331.aspx
Forget about it, this concept is only useful for home entertainment.
Katja
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 1:19 PM, katja katjavetter@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks everyone for your answers.
The case is unconventional because a stereo line signal must be sent from the computer. Professional wireless systems assume mic or instrument. Consumer systems do transmit stereo signal, but without bothering too much about latency.
Frankly, I did not expect the difficulty to find a good solution. Initially I wanted the wearable computer for a music video which is to be recorded live with sounds from natural objects. I bought the FM transmitter so my cameraman will be able to hear the music while he's filming. For this purpose it is ideal. Then I thought it would be good to use the computer in it's wearable mode for public performance. I figured that one of the many wireless solutions would suit the purpose, but didn't reckon with the unusual requirements.
Further searching brought me to a new technology 'PurePath' from Texas Instruments. It has a range comparable with WiFi (30m), while it seems to work with paired devices as in Bluetooth. I haven't seen consumer products with this technology, but development kits are available. A rather convincing demo is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YsnZQUfVGs
If this system can work with low latency it could be perfect for wireless Pd.
Katja
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Antoine Villeret antoine.villeret@gmail.com wrote:
hello,
those are good for what they have been designed for and it depends on what you mean by "exellent sound quality"
I've made few tests on those few years ago and the bandwidth could be good enough to transmit guitar/bass signal but nothing else for me
a
-- do it yourself http://antoine.villeret.free.fr
2013/2/28 richard duckworth richduckworth@yahoo.com
Hi Katja
one of these would do it - check with Thomann tech support for gain issues (these are Instrument Level input) They should be fine however as active guitar pickups (like heavy style EMG pickups) output quite high levels. These type of wireless systems tend to be very rugged, have excellent sound quality and long battery life - and you'll want these things.
http://www.thomann.de/ie/cat.html?gf=wireless_for_guitar_bass&oa=pra
Rich Duckworth Lecturer in Music Technology Department of Music House 5 Trinity College Dublin 2 Ireland Tel 353 1 896
1500
"Digital? Is that the thing where they take a good old sine wave and they chop it up into little bits?" --- Rupert Neve
Message: 3 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:53:43 +0100 From: katja katjavetter@gmail.com Subject: [PD] wireless audio from Pd to PA system To: pd-list pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: CAFY0eapPSKfw+gVaxuTr7exHqLiG+pTdu8Rk6SNTraLiys2Msg@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
For a wearable live performance computer, I am looking into the options of sending wireless audio from Pd to a PA sound system and other listeners.
In a first experiment I've tried a Linex FM transmitter. Audio quality is good enough, and FM transmitters do not introduce latency. This option is cheap and flexible, as the signal can be received by simple radio's, which are even built into cell phones and media players. I would need to boost the transmission a bit to make it more reliable. This will of course make the equipment illegal. Even then, the risk that someone else is transmitting a stronger signal on the channel can not be excluded.
Another option could be to send audio over Wifi. This would require WLAN to be available, and one extra computer (with
audio interface) as
a receiver. To avoid extra latency the audio should be sent uncompressed, like [udpsend~] / [udpreceive~] can do it. This has the risk of packet loss and serious dropouts.
I've been searching for 2.4 GHz wireless music receivers and found things like this: http://www.sitecom.com/en/wireless-music-streamer/wl-061/p/203. They seem to act like external soundcards for your computer. In Linux though I've never managed to properly connect multiple soundcards with Pd (in OSX it's easy using the Aggregate Device Editor from Audio MIDI Setup). Also I guess these devices introduce huge latency. With audio over bluetooth headsets I've experienced latencies up to a second.
Does anyone use a satisfactory method in practice, to send audio from Pd without
wires?
Thanks, Katja
Pd-list mailing list Pd-list@iem.at to manage your subscription (including un-subscription) see http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
End of Pd-list Digest, Vol 95, Issue 152
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Apparently, Line 6 managed to build a digital 2.4 GHz wireless with <4 ms latency, the Relay G30, G50 etc . They do not write it in the specs, but most users don't notice latency and when they do, their support is speaking of latency as low as that:
http://line6.com/support/thread/33898
This weekend I will do some WiFi experiments and see how fast it can go locally, using mrpeach udp and tcp classes. If it works, one could use a wireless router which has no other task than routing Pd audio, and the computer at the receiving end could be a cheap headless board with no other task than receiving Pd audio and converting it to analog. Together the receiving device could be the size of a weight-watcher's lunch box, while at the transmitter side the computer's built-in stuff is used. Maybe I'm a bit naive here, anyway I'll report results from experiments.
Katja
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 2:14 PM, richard duckworth richduckworth@yahoo.comwrote:
OMG - that's really high! Maybe Tranz have a belt holder solution - they do look kind of bulky though! Maybe worth dropping them a line, see if they'll help the Pd community
Rich Duckworth Lecturer in Music Technology Department of Music House 5 Trinity College Dublin 2 Ireland Tel 353 1 896 1500
"Digital? Is that the thing where they take a good old sine wave and they chop it up into little bits?" --- Rupert Neve
*From:* katja katjavetter@gmail.com *To:* Antoine Villeret antoine.villeret@gmail.com *Cc:* richard duckworth richduckworth@yahoo.com; "pd-list@iem.at" < pd-list@iem.at> *Sent:* Friday, 1 March 2013, 13:12 *Subject:* Re: [PD] wireless audio from Pd to PA system (katja)
Found more info about TI's PurePath wireless. Latency of wireless transmission is 768 samples minimum. Added to this must be the latencies of ad/da conversion.
http://e2e.ti.com/support/low_power_rf/f/382/t/110331.aspx
Forget about it, this concept is only useful for home entertainment.
Katja
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 1:19 PM, katja katjavetter@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks everyone for your answers.
The case is unconventional because a stereo line signal must be sent from the computer. Professional wireless systems assume mic or instrument. Consumer systems do transmit stereo signal, but without bothering too much about latency.
Frankly, I did not expect the difficulty to find a good solution. Initially I wanted the wearable computer for a music video which is to be recorded live with sounds from natural objects. I bought the FM transmitter so my cameraman will be able to hear the music while he's filming. For this purpose it is ideal. Then I thought it would be good to use the computer in it's wearable mode for public performance. I figured that one of the many wireless solutions would suit the purpose, but didn't reckon with the unusual requirements.
Further searching brought me to a new technology 'PurePath' from Texas Instruments. It has a range comparable with WiFi (30m), while it seems to work with paired devices as in Bluetooth. I haven't seen consumer products with this technology, but development kits are available. A rather convincing demo is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YsnZQUfVGs
If this system can work with low latency it could be perfect for wireless Pd.
Katja
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Antoine Villeret < antoine.villeret@gmail.com> wrote:
hello,
those are good for what they have been designed for and it depends on what you mean by "exellent sound quality"
I've made few tests on those few years ago and the bandwidth could be good enough to transmit guitar/bass signal but nothing else for me
a
-- do it yourself http://antoine.villeret.free.fr
2013/2/28 richard duckworth richduckworth@yahoo.com
Hi Katja one of these would do it - check with Thomann tech support for gain issues (these are Instrument Level input) They should be fine however as active guitar pickups (like heavy style EMG pickups) output quite high levels. These type of wireless systems tend to be very rugged, have excellent sound quality and long battery life - and you'll want these things.
http://www.thomann.de/ie/cat.html?gf=wireless_for_guitar_bass&oa=pra
Rich Duckworth Lecturer in Music Technology Department of Music House 5 Trinity College Dublin 2 Ireland Tel 353 1 896 1500
"Digital? Is that the thing where they take a good old sine wave and they chop it up into little bits?" --- Rupert Neve
Message: 3 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:53:43 +0100 From: katja katjavetter@gmail.com Subject: [PD] wireless audio from Pd to PA system To: pd-list pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: CAFY0eapPSKfw+gVaxuTr7exHqLiG+pTdu8Rk6SNTraLiys2Msg@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
For a wearable live performance computer, I am looking into the options of sending wireless audio from Pd to a PA sound system and other listeners.
In a first experiment I've tried a Linex FM transmitter. Audio quality is good enough, and FM transmitters do not introduce latency. This option is cheap and flexible, as the signal can be received by simple radio's, which are even built into cell phones and media players. I would need to boost the transmission a bit to make it more reliable. This will of course make the equipment illegal. Even then, the risk that someone else is transmitting a stronger signal on the channel can not be excluded.
Another option could be to send audio over Wifi. This would require WLAN to be available, and one extra computer (with audio interface) as a receiver. To avoid extra latency the audio should be sent uncompressed, like [udpsend~] / [udpreceive~] can do it. This has the risk of packet loss and serious dropouts.
I've been searching for 2.4 GHz wireless music receivers and found things like this: http://www.sitecom.com/en/wireless-music-streamer/wl-061/p/203. They seem to act like external soundcards for your computer. In Linux though I've never managed to properly connect multiple soundcards with Pd (in OSX it's easy using the Aggregate Device Editor from Audio MIDI Setup). Also I guess these devices introduce huge latency. With audio over bluetooth headsets I've experienced latencies up to a second.
Does anyone use a satisfactory method in practice, to send audio from Pd without wires?
Thanks, Katja
Pd-list mailing list Pd-list@iem.at to manage your subscription (including un-subscription) see http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
End of Pd-list Digest, Vol 95, Issue 152
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These Line 6 units are well respected in the electric bass world, especially considering their moderate price. I think bass players appreciate tight timing, and the low lag may be one reason these units are popular. Also, they have proven to be rugged enough to be "road-worthy". They can also model the hi-frequency lossiness of cords, though that seems of dubious value in your case.
Phil
On 3/1/13 12:24 PM, katja wrote:
Apparently, Line 6 managed to build a digital 2.4 GHz wireless with <4 ms latency, the Relay G30, G50 etc . They do not write it in the specs, but most users don't notice latency and when they do, their support is speaking of latency as low as that:
http://line6.com/support/thread/33898
This weekend I will do some WiFi experiments and see how fast it can go locally, using mrpeach udp and tcp classes. If it works, one could use a wireless router which has no other task than routing Pd audio, and the computer at the receiving end could be a cheap headless board with no other task than receiving Pd audio and converting it to analog. Together the receiving device could be the size of a weight-watcher's lunch box, while at the transmitter side the computer's built-in stuff is used. Maybe I'm a bit naive here, anyway I'll report results from experiments.
Katja
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 2:14 PM, richard duckworth <richduckworth@yahoo.com mailto:richduckworth@yahoo.com> wrote:
OMG - that's really high! Maybe Tranz have a belt holder solution - they do look kind of bulky though! Maybe worth dropping them a line, see if they'll help the Pd community Rich Duckworth Lecturer in Music Technology Department of Music House 5 Trinity College Dublin 2 Ireland Tel 353 1 896 1500 "Digital? Is that the thing where they take a good old sine wave and they chop it up into little bits?" --- Rupert Neve ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:* katja <katjavetter@gmail.com <mailto:katjavetter@gmail.com>> *To:* Antoine Villeret <antoine.villeret@gmail.com <mailto:antoine.villeret@gmail.com>> *Cc:* richard duckworth <richduckworth@yahoo.com <mailto:richduckworth@yahoo.com>>; "pd-list@iem.at <mailto:pd-list@iem.at>" <pd-list@iem.at <mailto:pd-list@iem.at>> *Sent:* Friday, 1 March 2013, 13:12 *Subject:* Re: [PD] wireless audio from Pd to PA system (katja) Found more info about TI's PurePath wireless. Latency of wireless transmission is 768 samples minimum. Added to this must be the latencies of ad/da conversion. http://e2e.ti.com/support/low_power_rf/f/382/t/110331.aspx Forget about it, this concept is only useful for home entertainment. Katja On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 1:19 PM, katja <katjavetter@gmail.com <mailto:katjavetter@gmail.com>> wrote: Thanks everyone for your answers. The case is unconventional because a stereo line signal must be sent from the computer. Professional wireless systems assume mic or instrument. Consumer systems do transmit stereo signal, but without bothering too much about latency. Frankly, I did not expect the difficulty to find a good solution. Initially I wanted the wearable computer for a music video which is to be recorded live with sounds from natural objects. I bought the FM transmitter so my cameraman will be able to hear the music while he's filming. For this purpose it is ideal. Then I thought it would be good to use the computer in it's wearable mode for public performance. I figured that one of the many wireless solutions would suit the purpose, but didn't reckon with the unusual requirements. Further searching brought me to a new technology 'PurePath' from Texas Instruments. It has a range comparable with WiFi (30m), while it seems to work with paired devices as in Bluetooth. I haven't seen consumer products with this technology, but development kits are available. A rather convincing demo is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YsnZQUfVGs If this system can work with low latency it could be perfect for wireless Pd. Katja On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Antoine Villeret <antoine.villeret@gmail.com <mailto:antoine.villeret@gmail.com>> wrote: hello, those are good for what they have been designed for and it depends on what you mean by "exellent sound quality" I've made few tests on those few years ago and the bandwidth could be good enough to transmit guitar/bass signal but nothing else for me + a -- do it yourself http://antoine.villeret.free.fr <http://antoine.villeret.free.fr/> 2013/2/28 richard duckworth <richduckworth@yahoo.com <mailto:richduckworth@yahoo.com>> Hi Katja one of these would do it - check with Thomann tech support for gain issues (these are Instrument Level input) They should be fine however as active guitar pickups (like heavy style EMG pickups) output quite high levels. These type of wireless systems tend to be very rugged, have excellent sound quality and long battery life - and you'll want these things. http://www.thomann.de/ie/cat.html?gf=wireless_for_guitar_bass&oa=pra Rich Duckworth Lecturer in Music Technology Department of Music House 5 Trinity College Dublin 2 Ireland Tel 353 1 896 1500 "Digital? Is that the thing where they take a good old sine wave and they chop it up into little bits?" --- Rupert Neve ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:53:43 +0100 From: katja <katjavetter@gmail.com <mailto:katjavetter@gmail.com>> Subject: [PD] wireless audio from Pd to PA system To: pd-list <pd-list@iem.at <mailto:pd-list@iem.at>> Message-ID: <CAFY0eapPSKfw+gVaxuTr7exHqLiG+pTdu8Rk6SNTraLiys2Msg@mail.gmail.com <mailto:pTdu8Rk6SNTraLiys2Msg@mail.gmail.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 For a wearable live performance computer, I am looking into the options of sending wireless audio from Pd to a PA sound system and other listeners. In a first experiment I've tried a Linex FM transmitter. Audio quality is good enough, and FM transmitters do not introduce latency. This option is cheap and flexible, as the signal can be received by simple radio's, which are even built into cell phones and media players. I would need to boost the transmission a bit to make it more reliable. This will of course make the equipment illegal. Even then, the risk that someone else is transmitting a stronger signal on the channel can not be excluded. Another option could be to send audio over Wifi. This would require WLAN to be available, and one extra computer (with audio interface) as a receiver. To avoid extra latency the audio should be sent uncompressed, like [udpsend~] / [udpreceive~] can do it. This has the risk of packet loss and serious dropouts. I've been searching for 2.4 GHz wireless music receivers and found things like this: http://www.sitecom.com/en/wireless-music-streamer/wl-061/p/203. They seem to act like external soundcards for your computer. In Linux though I've never managed to properly connect multiple soundcards with Pd (in OSX it's easy using the Aggregate Device Editor from Audio MIDI Setup). Also I guess these devices introduce huge latency. With audio over bluetooth headsets I've experienced latencies up to a second. Does anyone use a satisfactory method in practice, to send audio from Pd without wires? Thanks, Katja ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Pd-list mailing list Pd-list@iem.at <mailto:Pd-list@iem.at> to manage your subscription (including un-subscription) see http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list End of Pd-list Digest, Vol 95, Issue 152 **************************************** _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at <mailto:Pd-list@iem.at> mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at <mailto:Pd-list@iem.at> mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
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Sending Pd-audio over Wifi would have the advantage that no extra gear is needed at the transmitter side, simplifiying the setup of a wearable live performance computer. Therefore this would be the method of my preference, if it is possible at all.
This weekend I did some experiments with [udpsend~] and [udpreceive~] over Wifi. I soon found that using a wireless router makes little sense. Wifi is 'half duplex', meaning it can't send and receive at the same time, so the router is either receiving from one computer or sending to the other. A waste of time.
I learned about 'ad hoc networks', where computers can be paired via Wifi and talk to each other directly, without a router. Never knew about this before. What a cool option that is. Found a howto here:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Adhoc
In ad hoc mode, latency is lower, although on average not as low as over cable, and with more fluctuation. Moreover, there was considerable packet loss, which did not happen in wired LAN. Therefore, tcp protocol should probably be used instead, to check for packet loss and eventually resend packets.
I found that [udpsend~] can not send packets of 64 samples. It seems that 256 samples is the minimum. Why? Maybe it is best to pack each signal vector in a list and use the [tcpsend] / [tcpreceive] combo instead.
A well-known issue with music streaming is clock drift, caused by the slightly different clock speeds between audio cards. This also happens when sending over a local network (wired or wireless). Clock drift is typically 0.0001 to 0.001 ratio of nominal sample rate. A small difference, but it causes one buffer to be skipped or duplicated once in a while. To compensate, the signal should be resampled to match the receiver's sample rate. This would not require a complicated interpolation scheme, but still it would probably need one or more new Pd classes. An interesting article about clock drift and possible solutions is here:
http://www.carot.de/Docs/AES_Tokyo.pdf
If further experiments are promising enough, I would try this board for the receiver:
https://www.olimex.com/Products/OLinuXino/A13/A13-OLinuXino-WIFI/
Otherwise, I would just be happy to have learned about ad hoc networks. This can come in handy for other purposes too, for example when synching Pd computers.
Katja
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Phil Stone pkstone@ucdavis.edu wrote:
These Line 6 units are well respected in the electric bass world, especially considering their moderate price. I think bass players appreciate tight timing, and the low lag may be one reason these units are popular. Also, they have proven to be rugged enough to be "road-worthy". They can also model the hi-frequency lossiness of cords, though that seems of dubious value in your case.
Phil
On 3/1/13 12:24 PM, katja wrote:
Apparently, Line 6 managed to build a digital 2.4 GHz wireless with <4 ms latency, the Relay G30, G50 etc . They do not write it in the specs, but most users don't notice latency and when they do, their support is speaking of latency as low as that:
http://line6.com/support/thread/33898
This weekend I will do some WiFi experiments and see how fast it can go locally, using mrpeach udp and tcp classes. If it works, one could use a wireless router which has no other task than routing Pd audio, and the computer at the receiving end could be a cheap headless board with no other task than receiving Pd audio and converting it to analog. Together the receiving device could be the size of a weight-watcher's lunch box, while at the transmitter side the computer's built-in stuff is used. Maybe I'm a bit naive here, anyway I'll report results from experiments.
Katja
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 2:14 PM, richard duckworth <richduckworth@yahoo.com
wrote:
OMG - that's really high! Maybe Tranz have a belt holder solution - they do look kind of bulky though! Maybe worth dropping them a line, see if they'll help the Pd community
Rich Duckworth Lecturer in Music Technology Department of Music House 5 Trinity College Dublin 2 Ireland Tel 353 1 896 1500
"Digital? Is that the thing where they take a good old sine wave and they chop it up into little bits?" --- Rupert Neve ------------------------------ *From:* katja katjavetter@gmail.com *To:* Antoine Villeret antoine.villeret@gmail.com *Cc:* richard duckworth richduckworth@yahoo.com; "pd-list@iem.at" < pd-list@iem.at> *Sent:* Friday, 1 March 2013, 13:12 *Subject:* Re: [PD] wireless audio from Pd to PA system (katja)
Found more info about TI's PurePath wireless. Latency of wireless transmission is 768 samples minimum. Added to this must be the latencies of ad/da conversion.
http://e2e.ti.com/support/low_power_rf/f/382/t/110331.aspx
Forget about it, this concept is only useful for home entertainment.
Katja
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 1:19 PM, katja katjavetter@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks everyone for your answers.
The case is unconventional because a stereo line signal must be sent from the computer. Professional wireless systems assume mic or instrument. Consumer systems do transmit stereo signal, but without bothering too much about latency.
Frankly, I did not expect the difficulty to find a good solution. Initially I wanted the wearable computer for a music video which is to be recorded live with sounds from natural objects. I bought the FM transmitter so my cameraman will be able to hear the music while he's filming. For this purpose it is ideal. Then I thought it would be good to use the computer in it's wearable mode for public performance. I figured that one of the many wireless solutions would suit the purpose, but didn't reckon with the unusual requirements.
Further searching brought me to a new technology 'PurePath' from Texas Instruments. It has a range comparable with WiFi (30m), while it seems to work with paired devices as in Bluetooth. I haven't seen consumer products with this technology, but development kits are available. A rather convincing demo is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YsnZQUfVGs
If this system can work with low latency it could be perfect for wireless Pd.
Katja
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Antoine Villeret < antoine.villeret@gmail.com> wrote:
hello,
those are good for what they have been designed for and it depends on what you mean by "exellent sound quality"
I've made few tests on those few years ago and the bandwidth could be good enough to transmit guitar/bass signal but nothing else for me
a
-- do it yourself http://antoine.villeret.free.fr
2013/2/28 richard duckworth richduckworth@yahoo.com
Hi Katja one of these would do it - check with Thomann tech support for gain issues (these are Instrument Level input) They should be fine however as active guitar pickups (like heavy style EMG pickups) output quite high levels. These type of wireless systems tend to be very rugged, have excellent sound quality and long battery life - and you'll want these things.
http://www.thomann.de/ie/cat.html?gf=wireless_for_guitar_bass&oa=pra
Rich Duckworth Lecturer in Music Technology Department of Music House 5 Trinity College Dublin 2 Ireland Tel 353 1 896 1500
"Digital? Is that the thing where they take a good old sine wave and they chop it up into little bits?" --- Rupert Neve
Message: 3 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:53:43 +0100 From: katja katjavetter@gmail.com Subject: [PD] wireless audio from Pd to PA system To: pd-list pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: CAFY0eapPSKfw+gVaxuTr7exHqLiG+pTdu8Rk6SNTraLiys2Msg@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
For a wearable live performance computer, I am looking into the options of sending wireless audio from Pd to a PA sound system and other listeners.
In a first experiment I've tried a Linex FM transmitter. Audio quality is good enough, and FM transmitters do not introduce latency. This option is cheap and flexible, as the signal can be received by simple radio's, which are even built into cell phones and media players. I would need to boost the transmission a bit to make it more reliable. This will of course make the equipment illegal. Even then, the risk that someone else is transmitting a stronger signal on the channel can not be excluded.
Another option could be to send audio over Wifi. This would require WLAN to be available, and one extra computer (with audio interface) as a receiver. To avoid extra latency the audio should be sent uncompressed, like [udpsend~] / [udpreceive~] can do it. This has the risk of packet loss and serious dropouts.
I've been searching for 2.4 GHz wireless music receivers and found things like this: http://www.sitecom.com/en/wireless-music-streamer/wl-061/p/203. They seem to act like external soundcards for your computer. In Linux though I've never managed to properly connect multiple soundcards with Pd (in OSX it's easy using the Aggregate Device Editor from Audio MIDI Setup). Also I guess these devices introduce huge latency. With audio over bluetooth headsets I've experienced latencies up to a second.
Does anyone use a satisfactory method in practice, to send audio from Pd without wires?
Thanks, Katja
Pd-list mailing list Pd-list@iem.at to manage your subscription (including un-subscription) see http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
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On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 6:41 PM, katja katjavetter@gmail.com wrote:
If further experiments are promising enough, I would try this board for the receiver:
https://www.olimex.com/Products/OLinuXino/A13/A13-OLinuXino-WIFI/
I have been running Pd on this board for a few weeks now. In general, it works OK, but the ADC is not so good and adds a lot of latency. Just DAC output can be 10ms latency with passable sound. All of the Pd example patches run fine with the FFT ones topping out around 50% CPU load. That's with nothing else running. Any network activity will cause dropouts even at large buffer settings though.
The WiFi works with a few tweaks to the settings for your network.
The drawback with the Allwinner based chips is you have to take whatever the chip maker gives you for documentation and drivers (slim and none basically). The Chinese SoC makers have zero interest in orders less than a half million units and they mainly make those under $100 7" tablets and bad set top boxes. If something doesn't work, then it likely won't ever work - don't hold out for improved ALSA drivers for example.
I would see what the new BeagleBone looks like too. It's supposed to be cheaper and improved plus TI does support open source better than most.
Hi Chris, thanks for your advice. You're right, Chinese manufacturers are generally not supportive to open source, which is a pity as they are designing and producing most of the hardware today.
Katja
On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 6:43 AM, chris clepper cgclepper@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 6:41 PM, katja katjavetter@gmail.com wrote:
If further experiments are promising enough, I would try this board for the receiver:
https://www.olimex.com/Products/OLinuXino/A13/A13-OLinuXino-WIFI/
I have been running Pd on this board for a few weeks now. In general, it works OK, but the ADC is not so good and adds a lot of latency. Just DAC output can be 10ms latency with passable sound. All of the Pd example patches run fine with the FFT ones topping out around 50% CPU load. That's with nothing else running. Any network activity will cause dropouts even at large buffer settings though.
The WiFi works with a few tweaks to the settings for your network.
The drawback with the Allwinner based chips is you have to take whatever the chip maker gives you for documentation and drivers (slim and none basically). The Chinese SoC makers have zero interest in orders less than a half million units and they mainly make those under $100 7" tablets and bad set top boxes. If something doesn't work, then it likely won't ever work - don't hold out for improved ALSA drivers for example.
I would see what the new BeagleBone looks like too. It's supposed to be cheaper and improved plus TI does support open source better than most.
On Die, 2013-03-05 at 00:41 +0100, katja wrote:
I learned about 'ad hoc networks', where computers can be paired via Wifi and talk to each other directly, without a router. Never knew about this before. What a cool option that is.
Considering that in a wireless network only one device can talk per moment, you might be able to double your throughput and cut the latency in half with an ad-hoc network compared to a network managed by an access point as the access point repeats every message between local clients. One thing to consider is that often the wireless signal of mobile clients is weaker than the signal of the access point which means the maximum distance two ad-hoc clients can talk to each other is likely lower than in a managed network. Please note that I'm not really speaking from experience, so the theory might not translate well to practice.
Found a howto here:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Adhoc
In ad hoc mode, latency is lower, although on average not as low as over cable, and with more fluctuation. Moreover, there was considerable packet loss, which did not happen in wired LAN. Therefore, tcp protocol should probably be used instead, to check for packet loss and eventually resend packets.
I found that [udpsend~] can not send packets of 64 samples. It seems that 256 samples is the minimum. Why? Maybe it is best to pack each signal vector in a list and use the [tcpsend] / [tcpreceive] combo instead.
Again speaking theoretically, I doubt that TCP will help much. It guarantees the integrity of the data stream on the receiving end, but it doesn't care about timing constraints. In case of a network lag, the receiving end would just wait until the data arrives which also means an audio drop-out. However, since it wouldn't loose any data, the delay on the receiving end would increase with every drop-out. Of course, with a bigger delay, the drop-outs are getting less likely. If your goal is low-latency, I'd still go for UDP. There might be ways to compensate for lost packets, maybe by repeating the last one, hoping this would make lost packets less audible (I don't really know, just thinking).
Roman
Hi,
see if netjack fills the bill :
Netjack is a Realtime Audio Transport over a generic IP Network. It is fully integrated into JACK.
When you transport Audio Signals over a Network, you will always have the problem, that two Computers are bound to two different Sample Clocks. The other Network Transports face the Problem of compensating for the drift between these Sample Clocks. This is very hard to do.
NetJack works around this problem, by syncing all Clients to one Soundcard. So there will be no resampling or glitches in the whole network. Packet loss is now also handled gracefully. By using the celt codec, its even possible, that single packet losses get masked by the Packet Loss Concealment Code.
https://github.com/jackaudio/jackaudio.github.com/wiki/WalkThrough_User_NetJ... https://github.com/jackaudio/jackaudio.github.com/wiki/WalkThrough_User_NetJ...
Cheers,
Charles
Netjack docs look promising. It binds Jack clients on the transmitter computer (called 'slave') to the sample clock on the receiver computer ('master'). Netjack supports transmission over wifi, and over internet (using the CELT codec). It is primarily designed for 'distributed music'. Here is a paper introducing Netjack:
http://www.google.nl/url?q=http://lac.linuxaudio.org/2009/cdm/Saturday/22_Ho...
For anyone using Pd on a mobile device as sound generator, Netjack could be a great way to deliver audio over wifi. For my purpose though, I still need access to the sound card at the transmitter side to capture audio from a mic. An audio rate conversion routine called AlsaInOut is provided with Netjack so you can use the slave's sound card for playback. However, this can not be used for capturing or monitoring, due to large processing delay. So, clock drift is the show stopper here.
Clock drift is not related to network transmission but to the slight differences in clock speeds of sound cards even if they are set to the same nominal sample rate. It also happens with two sound cards used together on one computer, like when using an USB mic for input and the system sound card for output. Core Audio can handle such a setup, but at the expense of increased and fluctuating latency. Jack can combine soundcards, but buffer under- or overruns are audible.
What is so hard about compensating clock drift? If it must be done in a theoretically correct way, pitch should not change so it will be a time stretching routine which will indeed introduce considerable latency. However, clock speeds often differ by a very small amount, like a factor 1/1000 or less. What if we just accept the pitch difference? You would get playback speeds like 1.001 or 0.999, perfectly acceptable for my purpose at least. This would greatly simplify the task of resampling.
Katja
On 3/5/13, Charles Goyard cg@fsck.fr wrote:
Hi,
see if netjack fills the bill :
Netjack is a Realtime Audio Transport over a generic IP Network. It is fully integrated into JACK.
When you transport Audio Signals over a Network, you will always have the problem, that two Computers are bound to two different Sample Clocks. The other Network Transports face the Problem of compensating for the drift between these Sample Clocks. This is very hard to do.
NetJack works around this problem, by syncing all Clients to one Soundcard. So there will be no resampling or glitches in the whole network. Packet loss is now also handled gracefully. By using the celt codec, its even possible, that single packet losses get masked by the Packet Loss Concealment Code.
https://github.com/jackaudio/jackaudio.github.com/wiki/WalkThrough_User_NetJ... https://github.com/jackaudio/jackaudio.github.com/wiki/WalkThrough_User_NetJ...
Cheers,
Charles
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Hi Katja,
Regarding all this with... Digital clocks need to be synchronized to work together or else you will get clicks. As you have said it can be done in a driver or it can be done on-chip if your hardware has that feature. It does indeed add to the latency. On pro sound cards you would find word clock to sync cards together or possibly time code input/output for synchronising with video cameras. Consumer hardware does not have these features since most people wouldn't have any use for this. Some equipment can hold a very stable clock even after being disconnected from the others. This feature comes with added costs. Super expensive digital radio mics have a noticeable latency even though they are highly specialised equipment built to minimise this very latency. It's about 3ms for a good setup. Anyhow the lowest latency you will find is using analog wireless packs. The only point of digital radio mics is Hollywood can't probably cope with non-encrypted dialogues of your favourite TV series during the shoot. Don't go for the cheapest, and you might not need the high end. You can rent that stuff if it's not needed for such a long time. The Sennheiser e100 (gen3) is pretty decent for the price. That would be about 450~500€ for a kit.
There is a pro level audio-over-ethernet distribution system called ethersound. It's proprietary, but worth looking into. As with other digital format, there is a master clock somewhere in the system to which every one syncs. Once again digital converters are the main culprits when it comes to latency. http://www.ethersound.com/technology/overview.php
Cheers Pierre-Olivier
On 06/03/2013 12:41, katja wrote:
Netjack docs look promising. It binds Jack clients on the transmitter computer (called 'slave') to the sample clock on the receiver computer ('master'). Netjack supports transmission over wifi, and over internet (using the CELT codec). It is primarily designed for 'distributed music'. Here is a paper introducing Netjack:
http://www.google.nl/url?q=http://lac.linuxaudio.org/2009/cdm/Saturday/22_Ho...
For anyone using Pd on a mobile device as sound generator, Netjack could be a great way to deliver audio over wifi. For my purpose though, I still need access to the sound card at the transmitter side to capture audio from a mic. An audio rate conversion routine called AlsaInOut is provided with Netjack so you can use the slave's sound card for playback. However, this can not be used for capturing or monitoring, due to large processing delay. So, clock drift is the show stopper here.
Clock drift is not related to network transmission but to the slight differences in clock speeds of sound cards even if they are set to the same nominal sample rate. It also happens with two sound cards used together on one computer, like when using an USB mic for input and the system sound card for output. Core Audio can handle such a setup, but at the expense of increased and fluctuating latency. Jack can combine soundcards, but buffer under- or overruns are audible.
What is so hard about compensating clock drift? If it must be done in a theoretically correct way, pitch should not change so it will be a time stretching routine which will indeed introduce considerable latency. However, clock speeds often differ by a very small amount, like a factor 1/1000 or less. What if we just accept the pitch difference? You would get playback speeds like 1.001 or 0.999, perfectly acceptable for my purpose at least. This would greatly simplify the task of resampling.
Katja
On 3/5/13, Charles Goyard cg@fsck.fr wrote:
Hi,
see if netjack fills the bill :
Netjack is a Realtime Audio Transport over a generic IP Network. It is fully integrated into JACK.
When you transport Audio Signals over a Network, you will always have the problem, that two Computers are bound to two different Sample Clocks. The other Network Transports face the Problem of compensating for the drift between these Sample Clocks. This is very hard to do.
NetJack works around this problem, by syncing all Clients to one Soundcard. So there will be no resampling or glitches in the whole network. Packet loss is now also handled gracefully. By using the celt codec, its even possible, that single packet losses get masked by the Packet Loss Concealment Code.
https://github.com/jackaudio/jackaudio.github.com/wiki/WalkThrough_User_NetJ... https://github.com/jackaudio/jackaudio.github.com/wiki/WalkThrough_User_NetJ...
Cheers,
Charles
Hi all -
It's correct that if you're using non-synchronized udio devces, soner or later some FIFO will over- or under-flow and you'll get dropped audio samples. But lots of people seem happy to live with this - for instance, I believe anyone using Jacktrip for multi-site performances is doing precisely that. (Me too - at home, for driver-ish reasons, I have to use one audio device for input and a different one for output, and no way to sync them).
If the clocks in question are accurate to a part in a million you'll get 1 msec of "slip" every 20 minutes or so. And a well-designed audio driver could even see the trouble coming and do a quick cross-fade when necessary, or choose a moment of silence to resynchronize every 10 minutes or so.
And/or, one could actually resample things. I believe this is how Cobranet (one of the 'professional' solutions) does it. Resampling does add a few msec of latency if done at 44K1 or 48K, but if you run at higher rates (and if you don't mind non-flat frequency responses above 20kHz) I believe you can do much much better, around 0.1 msec. I remember hearing a good paper on this at the 2012 LAC (Stanford).
cheers Miller
On Wed, Mar 06, 2013 at 01:51:12PM +0100, Pierre-Olivier Boulant wrote:
Hi Katja,
Regarding all this with... Digital clocks need to be synchronized to work together or else you will get clicks. As you have said it can be done in a driver or it can be done on-chip if your hardware has that feature. It does indeed add to the latency. On pro sound cards you would find word clock to sync cards together or possibly time code input/output for synchronising with video cameras. Consumer hardware does not have these features since most people wouldn't have any use for this. Some equipment can hold a very stable clock even after being disconnected from the others. This feature comes with added costs. Super expensive digital radio mics have a noticeable latency even though they are highly specialised equipment built to minimise this very latency. It's about 3ms for a good setup. Anyhow the lowest latency you will find is using analog wireless packs. The only point of digital radio mics is Hollywood can't probably cope with non-encrypted dialogues of your favourite TV series during the shoot. Don't go for the cheapest, and you might not need the high end. You can rent that stuff if it's not needed for such a long time. The Sennheiser e100 (gen3) is pretty decent for the price. That would be about 450~500€ for a kit.
There is a pro level audio-over-ethernet distribution system called ethersound. It's proprietary, but worth looking into. As with other digital format, there is a master clock somewhere in the system to which every one syncs. Once again digital converters are the main culprits when it comes to latency. http://www.ethersound.com/technology/overview.php
Cheers Pierre-Olivier
On 06/03/2013 12:41, katja wrote:
Netjack docs look promising. It binds Jack clients on the transmitter computer (called 'slave') to the sample clock on the receiver computer ('master'). Netjack supports transmission over wifi, and over internet (using the CELT codec). It is primarily designed for 'distributed music'. Here is a paper introducing Netjack:
http://www.google.nl/url?q=http://lac.linuxaudio.org/2009/cdm/Saturday/22_Ho...
For anyone using Pd on a mobile device as sound generator, Netjack could be a great way to deliver audio over wifi. For my purpose though, I still need access to the sound card at the transmitter side to capture audio from a mic. An audio rate conversion routine called AlsaInOut is provided with Netjack so you can use the slave's sound card for playback. However, this can not be used for capturing or monitoring, due to large processing delay. So, clock drift is the show stopper here.
Clock drift is not related to network transmission but to the slight differences in clock speeds of sound cards even if they are set to the same nominal sample rate. It also happens with two sound cards used together on one computer, like when using an USB mic for input and the system sound card for output. Core Audio can handle such a setup, but at the expense of increased and fluctuating latency. Jack can combine soundcards, but buffer under- or overruns are audible.
What is so hard about compensating clock drift? If it must be done in a theoretically correct way, pitch should not change so it will be a time stretching routine which will indeed introduce considerable latency. However, clock speeds often differ by a very small amount, like a factor 1/1000 or less. What if we just accept the pitch difference? You would get playback speeds like 1.001 or 0.999, perfectly acceptable for my purpose at least. This would greatly simplify the task of resampling.
Katja
On 3/5/13, Charles Goyard cg@fsck.fr wrote:
Hi,
see if netjack fills the bill :
Netjack is a Realtime Audio Transport over a generic IP Network. It is fully integrated into JACK.
When you transport Audio Signals over a Network, you will always have the problem, that two Computers are bound to two different Sample Clocks. The other Network Transports face the Problem of compensating for the drift between these Sample Clocks. This is very hard to do.
NetJack works around this problem, by syncing all Clients to one Soundcard. So there will be no resampling or glitches in the whole network. Packet loss is now also handled gracefully. By using the celt codec, its even possible, that single packet losses get masked by the Packet Loss Concealment Code.
https://github.com/jackaudio/jackaudio.github.com/wiki/WalkThrough_User_NetJ... https://github.com/jackaudio/jackaudio.github.com/wiki/WalkThrough_User_NetJ...
Cheers,
Charles
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Antoine Villeret -
Charles Goyard -
chris clepper -
katja -
Miller Puckette -
Phil Stone -
Pierre-Olivier Boulant -
richard duckworth -
Roman Haefeli