Hi everybody,
I know it had been a problem in the past to read out the loop information of wav samples. I have not followed any further development since years.
Is there anything (like an external) that can read the loop points of .wav samples by now?
If not has anybody been successful reading the header information with something like [mrpeach/binfile]?
I know that loop points can be stored somwhere or somehow in the header. Unfortunately I cannot see from the Microsoft WAVE soundfile format where the loop points would be or find any information on it.
http://soundfile.sapp.org/doc/WaveFormat/
Any ideas? Am I looking at the wrong file header type?
Up until now I had been creating loops by copying the loop start and end point manually from the readings of SoundForge. However, I'm going to need a method soon that can read the loop points directly from the samples.
Thanks! Ingo
This is something I hoped it could be implemented in Pd Vanilla, with [soundfiler] (which now gives you some more information on the loaded file). If that's never happening, that is something I also wanted to implement in my externals, but I need help figuring how to do it.
Em ter., 11 de fev. de 2020 às 09:36, Ingo ingo@miamiwave.com escreveu:
Hi everybody,
I know it had been a problem in the past to read out the loop information of wav samples. I have not followed any further development since years.
Is there anything (like an external) that can read the loop points of .wav samples by now?
If not has anybody been successful reading the header information with something like [mrpeach/binfile]?
I know that loop points can be stored somwhere or somehow in the header. Unfortunately I cannot see from the Microsoft WAVE soundfile format where the loop points would be or find any information on it.
http://soundfile.sapp.org/doc/WaveFormat/
Any ideas? Am I looking at the wrong file header type?
Up until now I had been creating loops by copying the loop start and end point manually from the readings of SoundForge. However, I'm going to need a method soon that can read the loop points directly from the samples.
Thanks! Ingo
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
As long as we are talking about soundfiler,
It sure would be nice if someone could make soundfiler read any audio file type:
WAV MP3 OGG WMV FLAC AU AIFF etc
-- William Huston: WilliamAHuston@gmail.com Binghamton NY
*Public Service Mapping / Videography / Research / Education / Safety Advocacy* Blog http://WilliamAHuston.blogspot.com -- Facebook http://facebook.com/billhuston -- Twitter http://twitter.com/WilliamAHuston-- Youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGijK1amWOLglT3YeTyEBNQ?sub_congfirmation=1
*Document collections*: VirtualPipelines http://TinyURL.com/VirtualPipelines -- BHDCSDimockArchive http://bit.ly/BHDCSDimockArchive *Please support my work! -- *TinyURL.com/DonateToBillHuston
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 12:45 PM Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com wrote:
This is something I hoped it could be implemented in Pd Vanilla, with [soundfiler] (which now gives you some more information on the loaded file). If that's never happening, that is something I also wanted to implement in my externals, but I need help figuring how to do it.
Em ter., 11 de fev. de 2020 às 09:36, Ingo ingo@miamiwave.com escreveu:
Hi everybody,
I know it had been a problem in the past to read out the loop information of wav samples. I have not followed any further development since years.
Is there anything (like an external) that can read the loop points of .wav samples by now?
If not has anybody been successful reading the header information with something like [mrpeach/binfile]?
I know that loop points can be stored somwhere or somehow in the header. Unfortunately I cannot see from the Microsoft WAVE soundfile format where the loop points would be or find any information on it.
http://soundfile.sapp.org/doc/WaveFormat/
Any ideas? Am I looking at the wrong file header type?
Up until now I had been creating loops by copying the loop start and end point manually from the readings of SoundForge. However, I'm going to need a method soon that can read the loop points directly from the samples.
Thanks! Ingo
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On 2/11/20 9:48 PM, William Huston wrote:
As long as we are talking about soundfiler,
It sure would be nice if someone could make soundfiler read
any audio file type:
WAV MP3 OGG WMV FLAC AU AIFF etc
dan has recently done some refactoring of the soundfile-i/o backend, which should make all this much simpler.
so *you* only need to implement whatever backend you want. keep in mind, that Pd doesn't depend on any external library for doing the encoding/decoding, and afaict it should stay that way. so you "just" need to implement mp3, ogg, wmv, flac,... from scratch.
good luck.
to be honest: while i understand that mp3 is super-nice to have in your DJ setup, it really isn't a production format. (same for ogg and wmv: these are all handy formats to deliver content to the end-user, but not something you want to use during production). flac is mostly an archiving format. which leaves WAV, AU & AIFF from your list, all of which are already supported. what your list is missing is CAF, and this is what motivated dans recent work (so once his PR is accepted, you can read soundfiles "like a pro")
gmsrda IOhannes
so you "just" need to implement mp3, ogg, wmv, flac,... from scratch.
It would be nice if Pd had an API to add codecs to [soundfiler], [readsf~] and [writesf~] as plugins. I think you did something like this for GEM (for video playback), right?
to be honest: while i understand that mp3 is super-nice to have in your DJ setup, it really isn't a production format.
MP3 is often "good enough", especially for experiments. When people want to try some analysis or processing on a bunch of tracks in their music library, they have to first convert their MP3s to WAVs, which is akward and takes up lots of disk space.
To be clear: I agree that Pd probably shouldn't support MP3 or other compressed audio formats by itself, it should just make it easy to add such support as plugins.
Christof
On 11.02.2020 23:06, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
On 2/11/20 9:48 PM, William Huston wrote:
As long as we are talking about soundfiler,
It sure would be nice if someone could make soundfiler read
any audio file type:
WAV MP3 OGG WMV FLAC AU AIFF etc
dan has recently done some refactoring of the soundfile-i/o backend, which should make all this much simpler.
so *you* only need to implement whatever backend you want. keep in mind, that Pd doesn't depend on any external library for doing the encoding/decoding, and afaict it should stay that way. so you "just" need to implement mp3, ogg, wmv, flac,... from scratch.
good luck.
to be honest: while i understand that mp3 is super-nice to have in your DJ setup, it really isn't a production format. (same for ogg and wmv: these are all handy formats to deliver content to the end-user, but not something you want to use during production). flac is mostly an archiving format. which leaves WAV, AU & AIFF from your list, all of which are already supported. what your list is missing is CAF, and this is what motivated dans recent work (so once his PR is accepted, you can read soundfiles "like a pro")
gmsrda IOhannes
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On 12.02.20 01:21, Christof Ressi wrote:
To be clear: I agree that Pd probably shouldn't support MP3 or other compressed audio formats by itself, it should just make it easy to add such support as plugins.
totally. i've been talking with dan about this, and we kind of came up with the start of an "architecture" to allow other decoding/encoding backends.
to keep expectations low: this mainly started to get rid of a lot of boiler-plate code in the current implentation, and the "architecture" is currently only a struct (so dan is probably loughing himself silly when i call it "architecture"), and it only supports uncompressed formats, but that could very easily be extended.
fgamsdr IOhannes
Great!
On 12.02.2020 09:31, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
On 12.02.20 01:21, Christof Ressi wrote:
To be clear: I agree that Pd probably shouldn't support MP3 or other compressed audio formats by itself, it should just make it easy to add such support as plugins.
totally. i've been talking with dan about this, and we kind of came up with the start of an "architecture" to allow other decoding/encoding backends.
to keep expectations low: this mainly started to get rid of a lot of boiler-plate code in the current implentation, and the "architecture" is currently only a struct (so dan is probably loughing himself silly when i call it "architecture"), and it only supports uncompressed formats, but that could very easily be extended.
fgamsdr IOhannes
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 5:07 PM IOhannes m zmölnig zmoelnig@iem.at wrote:
so *you* only need to implement whatever backend you want.
keep in mind, that Pd doesn't depend on any external library for doing the encoding/decoding, and afaict it should stay that way. so you "just" need to implement mp3, ogg, wmv, flac,... from scratch.
good luck.
What is your personal vision for what PD should be, IOhannes? What would you say are the core values of PD?
Frankly, I consider this attitude arrogant, rude and offensive. Telling me what I "need to" do!!!
One of my favorite language designers is Larry Wall (Perl). Larry has talked about his design choices quite often, such as
1: Users (Perl programmers) should not experience any artificial or rigid limitations
2: Perl should be flexible enough to adapt to a user's needs and programming style, and not vice versa. He calls this approach "non-orthogonality". He relates it to looking at an apartment quad, where the designer first watches the paths that people make getting around, the worn patches of grass, and then builds the sidewalks there.
to be honest: while i understand that mp3 is super-nice to have in your
DJ setup, it really isn't a production format.
Who said anything about a DJ setup? As Christof said, there are many different uses for this tool.
Who are you to be telling me which file formats I should use?
YOUR particular sound aesthetics are fine... *FOR YOU!* in how you use PD, make music, design sound, etc.
But please don't force me to adopt YOUR aesthetics by crippling PD to enforce them!
*The fact is, MP3 is probably the most common audio file format* *in use today. *It is very inconvenient to (outside of PD) convert any MP3 samples I want to use, to WAV before I use them in PD.
This conversion BTW, DOES NOT ADD information, so the resulting WAV is guaranteed not to be better than the source.
This is ALWAYS the case!
Just because the file format is potentially uncompressed, does not mean that it is a high-quality sample.
So any arrogance, dogma, or demands made upon me based on the alleged superiority of the "WAV file aesthetic" seem misplaced to me.
Again, PD should be like Perl: NO ARTIFICIAL LIMITATIONS. Make it as flexible as possible.
If users want to read MP3s, OGGs, or FLACs, then lets make this possible.
I understand there are licensing issues with MP3 (esp. writing them), but other FOSS tools seem to have found a way to make it easy to speak MP3 despite this limitation.
Even if it happens in an external which is easy to find and load.
The answer to the question, "Why doesn't soundfiler support MP3" being "because IOhannes doesn't like them" does not sound acceptable to me.
Thanks, BH
-- William Huston: WilliamAHuston@gmail.com Binghamton NY
*Public Service Mapping / Videography / Research / Education / Safety Advocacy* Blog http://WilliamAHuston.blogspot.com -- Facebook http://facebook.com/billhuston -- Twitter http://twitter.com/WilliamAHuston-- Youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGijK1amWOLglT3YeTyEBNQ?sub_congfirmation=1
*Document collections*: VirtualPipelines http://TinyURL.com/VirtualPipelines -- BHDCSDimockArchive http://bit.ly/BHDCSDimockArchive *Please support my work! -- *TinyURL.com/DonateToBillHuston
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 5:07 PM IOhannes m zmölnig zmoelnig@iem.at wrote:
On 2/11/20 9:48 PM, William Huston wrote:
As long as we are talking about soundfiler,
It sure would be nice if someone could make soundfiler read
any audio file type:
WAV MP3 OGG WMV FLAC AU AIFF etc
dan has recently done some refactoring of the soundfile-i/o backend, which should make all this much simpler.
so *you* only need to implement whatever backend you want. keep in mind, that Pd doesn't depend on any external library for doing the encoding/decoding, and afaict it should stay that way. so you "just" need to implement mp3, ogg, wmv, flac,... from scratch.
good luck.
to be honest: while i understand that mp3 is super-nice to have in your DJ setup, it really isn't a production format. (same for ogg and wmv: these are all handy formats to deliver content to the end-user, but not something you want to use during production). flac is mostly an archiving format. which leaves WAV, AU & AIFF from your list, all of which are already supported. what your list is missing is CAF, and this is what motivated dans recent work (so once his PR is accepted, you can read soundfiles "like a pro")
gmsrda IOhannes
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
lets not start a war here on who decides what for whom…the reluctance for using mp3, ogg, wmv might just lie in the fact that working with compressed formats requires decompression first (that this is done “behind the scenes” in other softwares doesn´t mean its not happening) and adds a computational overhead, which might it make look unattractive to some (including me e.g.).
so i am inclined to follow johannes separation between "content delivery” codecs (mp3 et al) and “production codecs” (wav, aiff) and at no point read it as an attempt to block anything for anyone. he simply stated that he didn´t understand the wish for it…if anyone would develop something to work with mp3 in PD, how could/would he be able to block it? on the other hand he is under no obligation to develop it for others.
best
hans
Am 12.02.2020 um 01:55 schrieb William Huston williamahuston@gmail.com:
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 5:07 PM IOhannes m zmölnig zmoelnig@iem.at wrote:
so *you* only need to implement whatever backend you want. keep in mind, that Pd doesn't depend on any external library for doing the encoding/decoding, and afaict it should stay that way. so you "just" need to implement mp3, ogg, wmv, flac,... from scratch.
good luck.
What is your personal vision for what PD should be, IOhannes? What would you say are the core values of PD?
Frankly, I consider this attitude arrogant, rude and offensive. Telling me what I "need to" do!!!
One of my favorite language designers is Larry Wall (Perl). Larry has talked about his design choices quite often, such as
1: Users (Perl programmers) should not experience any artificial or rigid limitations
2: Perl should be flexible enough to adapt to a user's needs and programming style, and not vice versa. He calls this approach "non-orthogonality". He relates it to looking at an apartment quad, where the designer first watches the paths that people make getting around, the worn patches of grass, and then builds the sidewalks there.
to be honest: while i understand that mp3 is super-nice to have in your DJ setup, it really isn't a production format.
Who said anything about a DJ setup? As Christof said, there are many different uses for this tool.
Who are you to be telling me which file formats I should use?
YOUR particular sound aesthetics are fine... FOR YOU! in how you use PD, make music, design sound, etc.
But please don't force me to adopt YOUR aesthetics by crippling PD to enforce them!
The fact is, MP3 is probably the most common audio file format in use today. It is very inconvenient to (outside of PD) convert any MP3 samples I want to use, to WAV before I use them in PD.
This conversion BTW, DOES NOT ADD information, so the resulting WAV is guaranteed not to be better than the source.
This is ALWAYS the case!
Just because the file format is potentially uncompressed, does not mean that it is a high-quality sample.
So any arrogance, dogma, or demands made upon me based on the alleged superiority of the "WAV file aesthetic" seem misplaced to me.
Again, PD should be like Perl: NO ARTIFICIAL LIMITATIONS. Make it as flexible as possible.
If users want to read MP3s, OGGs, or FLACs, then lets make this possible.
I understand there are licensing issues with MP3 (esp. writing them), but other FOSS tools seem to have found a way to make it easy to speak MP3 despite this limitation.
Even if it happens in an external which is easy to find and load.
The answer to the question, "Why doesn't soundfiler support MP3" being "because IOhannes doesn't like them" does not sound acceptable to me.
Thanks, BH
-- William Huston: WilliamAHuston@gmail.com Binghamton NY
Public Service Mapping / Videography / Research / Education / Safety Advocacy Blog -- Facebook -- Twitter -- Youtube -- Podcast Blog Document collections: VirtualPipelines -- BHDCSDimockArchive Please support my work! -- TinyURL.com/DonateToBillHuston
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 5:07 PM IOhannes m zmölnig zmoelnig@iem.at wrote: On 2/11/20 9:48 PM, William Huston wrote:
As long as we are talking about soundfiler,
It sure would be nice if someone could make soundfiler read
any audio file type:
WAV MP3 OGG WMV FLAC AU AIFF etc
dan has recently done some refactoring of the soundfile-i/o backend, which should make all this much simpler.
so *you* only need to implement whatever backend you want. keep in mind, that Pd doesn't depend on any external library for doing the encoding/decoding, and afaict it should stay that way. so you "just" need to implement mp3, ogg, wmv, flac,... from scratch.
good luck.
to be honest: while i understand that mp3 is super-nice to have in your DJ setup, it really isn't a production format. (same for ogg and wmv: these are all handy formats to deliver content to the end-user, but not something you want to use during production). flac is mostly an archiving format. which leaves WAV, AU & AIFF from your list, all of which are already supported. what your list is missing is CAF, and this is what motivated dans recent work (so once his PR is accepted, you can read soundfiles "like a pro")
gmsrda IOhannes
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list _______________________________________________ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
@William
I understand there are licensing issues with MP3 (esp. writing them)
Licensing is not so much an issue anymore because the Fraunhofer patents expired in 2017, so OSS MP3 libraries like "lame" are now legal.
Even if it happens in an external which is easy to find and load.
As Hans already said, no one is opposing creating and using MP3 externals (they already exist, BTW).
Personally, I think that MP3 certainly has its use in audio production, but I also agree with IOhannes that Pd doesn't need *native* MP3 support. The main reason is that Pd vanilla's design philosophy is to be as slim as possible with as little external dependencies as possible, to ensure that maintainance of the core doesn't become overwhelming.
Again, PD should be like Perl: NO ARTIFICIAL LIMITATIONS. Make it as flexible as possible.
That's the entire point of Pd vanilla: have a stable core, but make it extensible. There are actually very few limitations on what you can do in Pd externals.
Christof
On 12.02.2020 02:26, hans w. koch wrote:
lets not start a war here on who decides what for whom…the reluctance for using mp3, ogg, wmv might just lie in the fact that working with compressed formats requires decompression first (that this is done “behind the scenes” in other softwares doesn´t mean its not happening) and adds a computational overhead, which might it make look unattractive to some (including me e.g.).
so i am inclined to follow johannes separation between "content delivery” codecs (mp3 et al) and “production codecs” (wav, aiff) and at no point read it as an attempt to block anything for anyone. he simply stated that he didn´t understand the wish for it…if anyone would develop something to work with mp3 in PD, how could/would he be able to block it? on the other hand he is under no obligation to develop it for others.
best
hans
Am 12.02.2020 um 01:55 schrieb William Huston williamahuston@gmail.com:
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 5:07 PM IOhannes m zmölnig zmoelnig@iem.at wrote:
so *you* only need to implement whatever backend you want. keep in mind, that Pd doesn't depend on any external library for doing the encoding/decoding, and afaict it should stay that way. so you "just" need to implement mp3, ogg, wmv, flac,... from scratch.
good luck.
What is your personal vision for what PD should be, IOhannes? What would you say are the core values of PD?
Frankly, I consider this attitude arrogant, rude and offensive. Telling me what I "need to" do!!!
One of my favorite language designers is Larry Wall (Perl). Larry has talked about his design choices quite often, such as
1: Users (Perl programmers) should not experience any artificial or rigid limitations
2: Perl should be flexible enough to adapt to a user's needs and programming style, and not vice versa. He calls this approach "non-orthogonality". He relates it to looking at an apartment quad, where the designer first watches the paths that people make getting around, the worn patches of grass, and then builds the sidewalks there.
to be honest: while i understand that mp3 is super-nice to have in your DJ setup, it really isn't a production format.
Who said anything about a DJ setup? As Christof said, there are many different uses for this tool.
Who are you to be telling me which file formats I should use?
YOUR particular sound aesthetics are fine... FOR YOU! in how you use PD, make music, design sound, etc.
But please don't force me to adopt YOUR aesthetics by crippling PD to enforce them!
The fact is, MP3 is probably the most common audio file format in use today. It is very inconvenient to (outside of PD) convert any MP3 samples I want to use, to WAV before I use them in PD.
This conversion BTW, DOES NOT ADD information, so the resulting WAV is guaranteed not to be better than the source.
This is ALWAYS the case!
Just because the file format is potentially uncompressed, does not mean that it is a high-quality sample.
So any arrogance, dogma, or demands made upon me based on the alleged superiority of the "WAV file aesthetic" seem misplaced to me.
Again, PD should be like Perl: NO ARTIFICIAL LIMITATIONS. Make it as flexible as possible.
If users want to read MP3s, OGGs, or FLACs, then lets make this possible.
I understand there are licensing issues with MP3 (esp. writing them), but other FOSS tools seem to have found a way to make it easy to speak MP3 despite this limitation.
Even if it happens in an external which is easy to find and load.
The answer to the question, "Why doesn't soundfiler support MP3" being "because IOhannes doesn't like them" does not sound acceptable to me.
Thanks, BH
-- William Huston: WilliamAHuston@gmail.com Binghamton NY
Public Service Mapping / Videography / Research / Education / Safety Advocacy Blog -- Facebook -- Twitter -- Youtube -- Podcast Blog Document collections: VirtualPipelines -- BHDCSDimockArchive Please support my work! -- TinyURL.com/DonateToBillHuston
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 5:07 PM IOhannes m zmölnig zmoelnig@iem.at wrote: On 2/11/20 9:48 PM, William Huston wrote:
As long as we are talking about soundfiler,
It sure would be nice if someone could make soundfiler read
any audio file type:
WAV MP3 OGG WMV FLAC AU AIFF etc
dan has recently done some refactoring of the soundfile-i/o backend, which should make all this much simpler.
so *you* only need to implement whatever backend you want. keep in mind, that Pd doesn't depend on any external library for doing the encoding/decoding, and afaict it should stay that way. so you "just" need to implement mp3, ogg, wmv, flac,... from scratch.
good luck.
to be honest: while i understand that mp3 is super-nice to have in your DJ setup, it really isn't a production format. (same for ogg and wmv: these are all handy formats to deliver content to the end-user, but not something you want to use during production). flac is mostly an archiving format. which leaves WAV, AU & AIFF from your list, all of which are already supported. what your list is missing is CAF, and this is what motivated dans recent work (so once his PR is accepted, you can read soundfiles "like a pro")
gmsrda IOhannes
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list _______________________________________________ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Well, I was really really hoping to see information here on how to get loop points from these files ;) let's please go back to this thread's original discussion (that is to say you can branch to another "MP3 support" thread if desired), thanks!
Em ter., 11 de fev. de 2020 às 18:03, Christof Ressi info@christofressi.com escreveu:
@William
I understand there are licensing issues with MP3 (esp. writing them)
Licensing is not so much an issue anymore because the Fraunhofer patents expired in 2017, so OSS MP3 libraries like "lame" are now legal.
Even if it happens in an external which is easy to find and load.
As Hans already said, no one is opposing creating and using MP3 externals (they already exist, BTW).
Personally, I think that MP3 certainly has its use in audio production, but I also agree with IOhannes that Pd doesn't need *native* MP3 support. The main reason is that Pd vanilla's design philosophy is to be as slim as possible with as little external dependencies as possible, to ensure that maintainance of the core doesn't become overwhelming.
Again, PD should be like Perl: NO ARTIFICIAL LIMITATIONS. Make it as flexible as possible.
That's the entire point of Pd vanilla: have a stable core, but make it extensible. There are actually very few limitations on what you can do in Pd externals.
Christof
On 12.02.2020 02:26, hans w. koch wrote:
lets not start a war here on who decides what for whom…the reluctance
for using mp3, ogg, wmv might just lie in the fact that working with compressed formats requires decompression first (that this is done “behind the scenes” in other softwares doesn´t mean its not happening) and adds a computational overhead, which might it make look unattractive to some (including me e.g.).
so i am inclined to follow johannes separation between "content
delivery” codecs (mp3 et al) and “production codecs” (wav, aiff) and at no point read it as an attempt to block anything for anyone.
he simply stated that he didn´t understand the wish for it…if anyone
would develop something to work with mp3 in PD, how could/would he be able to block it?
on the other hand he is under no obligation to develop it for others.
best
hans
Am 12.02.2020 um 01:55 schrieb William Huston <williamahuston@gmail.com
:
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 5:07 PM IOhannes m zmölnig zmoelnig@iem.at
wrote:
so *you* only need to implement whatever backend you want. keep in mind, that Pd doesn't depend on any external library for doing the encoding/decoding, and afaict it should stay that way. so you "just" need to implement mp3, ogg, wmv, flac,... from scratch.
good luck.
What is your personal vision for what PD should be, IOhannes? What would you say are the core values of PD?
Frankly, I consider this attitude arrogant, rude and offensive. Telling me what I "need to" do!!!
One of my favorite language designers is Larry Wall (Perl). Larry has talked about his design choices quite often, such as
1: Users (Perl programmers) should not experience any artificial or
rigid limitations
2: Perl should be flexible enough to adapt to a user's needs and
programming style,
and not vice versa. He calls this approach "non-orthogonality". He
relates it to
looking at an apartment quad, where the designer first watches the
paths that people
make getting around, the worn patches of grass, and then builds the
sidewalks there.
to be honest: while i understand that mp3 is super-nice to have in your DJ setup, it really isn't a production format.
Who said anything about a DJ setup? As Christof said, there are many different uses for this tool.
Who are you to be telling me which file formats I should use?
YOUR particular sound aesthetics are fine... FOR YOU! in how you use PD, make music, design sound, etc.
But please don't force me to adopt YOUR aesthetics by crippling PD to enforce them!
The fact is, MP3 is probably the most common audio file format in use today. It is very inconvenient to (outside of PD) convert any MP3 samples I want to use, to WAV before I use them in PD.
This conversion BTW, DOES NOT ADD information, so the resulting WAV is guaranteed not to be better than the source.
This is ALWAYS the case!
Just because the file format is potentially uncompressed, does not mean
that
it is a high-quality sample.
So any arrogance, dogma, or demands made upon me based on the alleged superiority of the "WAV file aesthetic" seem misplaced to me.
Again, PD should be like Perl: NO ARTIFICIAL LIMITATIONS. Make it as flexible as possible.
If users want to read MP3s, OGGs, or FLACs, then lets make this possible.
I understand there are licensing issues with MP3 (esp. writing them), but other FOSS tools seem to have found a way to make it easy to speak MP3 despite this limitation.
Even if it happens in an external which is easy to find and load.
The answer to the question, "Why doesn't soundfiler support MP3" being "because IOhannes doesn't like them" does not sound acceptable to me.
Thanks, BH
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On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 5:07 PM IOhannes m zmölnig zmoelnig@iem.at
wrote:
On 2/11/20 9:48 PM, William Huston wrote:
As long as we are talking about soundfiler,
It sure would be nice if someone could make soundfiler read
any audio file type:
WAV MP3 OGG WMV FLAC AU AIFF etc
dan has recently done some refactoring of the soundfile-i/o backend, which should make all this much simpler.
so *you* only need to implement whatever backend you want. keep in mind, that Pd doesn't depend on any external library for doing the encoding/decoding, and afaict it should stay that way. so you "just" need to implement mp3, ogg, wmv, flac,... from scratch.
good luck.
to be honest: while i understand that mp3 is super-nice to have in your DJ setup, it really isn't a production format. (same for ogg and wmv: these are all handy formats to deliver content to the end-user, but not something you want to use during production). flac is mostly an archiving format. which leaves WAV, AU & AIFF from your list, all of which are already supported. what your list is missing is CAF, and this is what motivated dans recent work (so once his PR is accepted, you can read soundfiles "like a pro")
gmsrda IOhannes
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On Tue, 2020-02-11 at 21:22 -0800, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
Well, I was really really hoping to see information here on how to get loop points from these files ;)
I looked around for specifications of the .wav-format and I wasn't able to find one that looks canonical. The ones I found didn't mention any loop start- and endpoints. I wonder whether there is a convention about how to encode this into some sort of metadata stored with file. Some description of the format describe the ability to store anything as metdata. Personally, I never dealt with such files (at least not knowingly). Maybe a good start would be to provide such a file, so that people can a have a look at it. It might be not that difficult to retrieve such data with something like mrpeach's [binfile], once you know how it is stored.
Roman
I have been working with hardware samplers since the 80ies and used (mainly) softwares like SoundForge or Wavelab for looping. There was no extra file. All hardware samplers could read the loops. Once a file was looped with one sampler it would be looped with the next one. Same thing with modern software Samplers like Kontakt. I can use a sample that I looped in Wavelab and load it into SoundForge and it recognizes the loops. (There are options for multiple loops, though that might not work with some samplers.)
It can't be such a secret since over 30 years that all manufacturers (software or hardware) know about it but noone else. I have been looking around but couldn't find any information where the loops are stored in the file but they definitely are.
Ingo
-----Original Message----- From: Pd-list [mailto:pd-list-bounces@lists.iem.at] On Behalf Of Roman Haefeli Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 8:48 AM To: pd-list@lists.iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] Sample loop - start and end point (WAV files)
On Tue, 2020-02-11 at 21:22 -0800, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
Well, I was really really hoping to see information here on how to get loop points from these files ;)
I looked around for specifications of the .wav-format and I wasn't able to find one that looks canonical. The ones I found didn't mention any loop start- and endpoints. I wonder whether there is a convention about how to encode this into some sort of metadata stored with file. Some description of the format describe the ability to store anything as metdata. Personally, I never dealt with such files (at least not knowingly). Maybe a good start would be to provide such a file, so that people can a have a look at it. It might be not that difficult to retrieve such data with something like mrpeach's [binfile], once you know how it is stored.
Roman
There are softwares like AwaveStudio that do nothing else but format conversion between different sampler formats that can handle the loop points as well.
I have been working with hardware samplers since the 80ies and used (mainly) softwares like SoundForge or Wavelab for looping. There was no extra file. All hardware samplers could read the loops. Once a file was looped with one sampler it would be looped with the next one. Same thing with modern software Samplers like Kontakt. I can use a sample that I looped in Wavelab and load it into SoundForge and it recognizes the loops. (There are options for multiple loops, though that might not work with some samplers.)
It can't be such a secret since over 30 years that all manufacturers (software or hardware) know about it but noone else. I have been looking around but couldn't find any information where the loops are stored in the file but they definitely are.
Ingo
-----Original Message----- From: Pd-list [mailto:pd-list-bounces@lists.iem.at] On Behalf Of Roman Haefeli Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 8:48 AM To: pd-list@lists.iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] Sample loop - start and end point (WAV files)
On Tue, 2020-02-11 at 21:22 -0800, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
Well, I was really really hoping to see information here on how to get loop points from these files ;)
I looked around for specifications of the .wav-format and I wasn't able to find one that looks canonical. The ones I found didn't mention any loop start- and endpoints. I wonder whether there is a convention about how to encode this into some sort of metadata stored with file. Some description of the format describe the ability to store anything as metdata. Personally, I never dealt with such files (at least not knowingly). Maybe a good start would be to provide such a file, so that people can a have a look at it. It might be not that difficult to retrieve such data with something like mrpeach's [binfile], once you know
how it is stored.
Roman
Ingo, did you have any luck on this throughout the year?
I'm also curious on this. Anyway, I had another thread here and someone suggested http://loopauditioneer.sourceforge.net/ that seems to read loop points - but I can't test it because it's linux
Em qua., 12 de fev. de 2020 às 05:39, Ingo ingo@miamiwave.com escreveu:
There are softwares like AwaveStudio that do nothing else but format conversion between different sampler formats that can handle the loop points as well.
I have been working with hardware samplers since the 80ies and used (mainly) softwares like SoundForge or Wavelab for looping. There was no extra file. All hardware samplers could read the loops.
Once a
file was looped with one sampler it would be looped with the next one. Same thing with modern software Samplers like Kontakt. I can use a sample that I looped in Wavelab and load it into SoundForge
and
it recognizes the loops. (There are options for multiple loops, though that might not work with
some
samplers.)
It can't be such a secret since over 30 years that all manufacturers (software or hardware) know about it but noone else. I have been looking around but couldn't find any information where the loops are stored in the file but they definitely are.
Ingo
-----Original Message----- From: Pd-list [mailto:pd-list-bounces@lists.iem.at] On Behalf Of Roman Haefeli Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 8:48 AM To: pd-list@lists.iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] Sample loop - start and end point (WAV files)
On Tue, 2020-02-11 at 21:22 -0800, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
Well, I was really really hoping to see information here on how to get loop points from these files ;)
I looked around for specifications of the .wav-format and I wasn't able to find one that looks canonical. The ones I found didn't mention any loop start- and endpoints. I wonder whether there is a convention about how to encode this into some sort of metadata stored with file. Some description of the format describe the ability to store anything as metdata. Personally, I never dealt with such files (at least not knowingly). Maybe a good start would be to provide such a file, so that people can a have a look at it. It might be not that difficult to retrieve such data with something like mrpeach's [binfile], once you
know
how it is stored.
Roman
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Cue and loop points are saved in the metadata, the appropriate chunks are shown here https://sites.google.com/site/musicgapi/technical-documents/wav-file-format#... . Audacity will run on most anything and can read loop points.
On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 8:16 PM Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com wrote:
Ingo, did you have any luck on this throughout the year?
I'm also curious on this. Anyway, I had another thread here and someone suggested http://loopauditioneer.sourceforge.net/ that seems to read loop points - but I can't test it because it's linux
Em qua., 12 de fev. de 2020 às 05:39, Ingo ingo@miamiwave.com escreveu:
There are softwares like AwaveStudio that do nothing else but format conversion between different sampler formats that can handle the loop points as well.
I have been working with hardware samplers since the 80ies and used (mainly) softwares like SoundForge or Wavelab for looping. There was no extra file. All hardware samplers could read the loops.
Once a
file was looped with one sampler it would be looped with the next one. Same thing with modern software Samplers like Kontakt. I can use a sample that I looped in Wavelab and load it into SoundForge
and
it recognizes the loops. (There are options for multiple loops, though that might not work with
some
samplers.)
It can't be such a secret since over 30 years that all manufacturers (software or hardware) know about it but noone else. I have been looking around but couldn't find any information where the loops are stored in the file but they definitely are.
Ingo
-----Original Message----- From: Pd-list [mailto:pd-list-bounces@lists.iem.at] On Behalf Of
Roman
Haefeli Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 8:48 AM To: pd-list@lists.iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] Sample loop - start and end point (WAV files)
On Tue, 2020-02-11 at 21:22 -0800, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
Well, I was really really hoping to see information here on how to get loop points from these files ;)
I looked around for specifications of the .wav-format and I wasn't able to find one that looks canonical. The ones I found didn't mention any loop start- and endpoints. I wonder whether there is a convention about how to encode this into some sort of metadata stored with file. Some description of the format describe the ability to store anything as metdata. Personally, I never dealt with such files (at least not knowingly). Maybe a good start would be to provide such a file, so that people can a have a look at it. It might be not that difficult to retrieve such data with something like mrpeach's [binfile], once you
know
how it is stored.
Roman
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cool, but how to extract the loop points information as samples from audacity? thanks
Em dom., 8 de nov. de 2020 às 17:42, adam johnson ulioidle@gmail.com escreveu:
Cue and loop points are saved in the metadata, the appropriate chunks are shown here https://sites.google.com/site/musicgapi/technical-documents/wav-file-format#... . Audacity will run on most anything and can read loop points.
On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 8:16 PM Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com wrote:
Ingo, did you have any luck on this throughout the year?
I'm also curious on this. Anyway, I had another thread here and someone suggested http://loopauditioneer.sourceforge.net/ that seems to read loop points - but I can't test it because it's linux
Em qua., 12 de fev. de 2020 às 05:39, Ingo ingo@miamiwave.com escreveu:
There are softwares like AwaveStudio that do nothing else but format conversion between different sampler formats that can handle the loop points as well.
I have been working with hardware samplers since the 80ies and used (mainly) softwares like SoundForge or Wavelab for looping. There was no extra file. All hardware samplers could read the loops.
Once a
file was looped with one sampler it would be looped with the next one. Same thing with modern software Samplers like Kontakt. I can use a sample that I looped in Wavelab and load it into
SoundForge and
it recognizes the loops. (There are options for multiple loops, though that might not work with
some
samplers.)
It can't be such a secret since over 30 years that all manufacturers (software or hardware) know about it but noone else. I have been looking around but couldn't find any information where the loops are stored in the file but they definitely are.
Ingo
-----Original Message----- From: Pd-list [mailto:pd-list-bounces@lists.iem.at] On Behalf Of
Roman
Haefeli Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 8:48 AM To: pd-list@lists.iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] Sample loop - start and end point (WAV files)
On Tue, 2020-02-11 at 21:22 -0800, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
Well, I was really really hoping to see information here on how to get loop points from these files ;)
I looked around for specifications of the .wav-format and I wasn't able to find one that looks canonical. The ones I found didn't
mention
any loop start- and endpoints. I wonder whether there is a convention about how to encode this into some sort of metadata stored with file. Some description of the format describe the ability to store anything as metdata. Personally, I never dealt with such files (at least not knowingly). Maybe a good start would be to provide such a file, so that people can a have a look at it. It might be not that difficult
to
retrieve such data with something like mrpeach's [binfile], once you
know
how it is stored.
Roman
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Actually... this was more on the intention to make a patch that plays looped samples with looping points and more influenced by the fact that MAX has info~ which does report looping points. So I'm interested in the idea of also having this running in a patch and maybe have an external that gives us the information (or even vanilla's soundfiler). The thing is that now that I'm trying to make a patch that does loop, I'm searching for such samples out there with looping points, and I'm not really finding anything so I could test by checking if audacity shows me the looping points.
Does anyone know where I can find a nice pack with samples that have a middle looped section?
thanks
Em dom., 8 de nov. de 2020 às 20:30, Alexandre Torres Porres < porres@gmail.com> escreveu:
cool, but how to extract the loop points information as samples from audacity? thanks
Em dom., 8 de nov. de 2020 às 17:42, adam johnson ulioidle@gmail.com escreveu:
Cue and loop points are saved in the metadata, the appropriate chunks are shown here https://sites.google.com/site/musicgapi/technical-documents/wav-file-format#... . Audacity will run on most anything and can read loop points.
On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 8:16 PM Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com wrote:
Ingo, did you have any luck on this throughout the year?
I'm also curious on this. Anyway, I had another thread here and someone suggested http://loopauditioneer.sourceforge.net/ that seems to read loop points - but I can't test it because it's linux
Em qua., 12 de fev. de 2020 às 05:39, Ingo ingo@miamiwave.com escreveu:
There are softwares like AwaveStudio that do nothing else but format conversion between different sampler formats that can handle the loop points as well.
I have been working with hardware samplers since the 80ies and used (mainly) softwares like SoundForge or Wavelab for looping. There was no extra file. All hardware samplers could read the loops.
Once a
file was looped with one sampler it would be looped with the next one. Same thing with modern software Samplers like Kontakt. I can use a sample that I looped in Wavelab and load it into
SoundForge and
it recognizes the loops. (There are options for multiple loops, though that might not work
with some
samplers.)
It can't be such a secret since over 30 years that all manufacturers (software or hardware) know about it but noone else. I have been looking around but couldn't find any information where the loops are stored in the file but they definitely are.
Ingo
-----Original Message----- From: Pd-list [mailto:pd-list-bounces@lists.iem.at] On Behalf Of
Roman
Haefeli Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 8:48 AM To: pd-list@lists.iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] Sample loop - start and end point (WAV files)
On Tue, 2020-02-11 at 21:22 -0800, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: > Well, I was really really hoping to see information here on how to > get loop points from these files ;)
I looked around for specifications of the .wav-format and I wasn't able to find one that looks canonical. The ones I found didn't
mention
any loop start- and endpoints. I wonder whether there is a
convention
about how to encode this into some sort of metadata stored with
file.
Some description of the format describe the ability to store
anything
as metdata. Personally, I never dealt with such files (at least not knowingly). Maybe a good start would be to provide such a file, so that people can a have a look at it. It might be not that difficult
to
retrieve such data with something like mrpeach's [binfile], once
you know
how it is stored.
Roman
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Dan Wilcox was working in the ability of [soundfiler] to read the loop point within Pd.
In Pd 0.51.1 there was still no change concerning sample loop points - unless it's not documented in the help file.
Reading and writing loop points outside of Pd is no problem. I've been doing this for more that 30 years.
However, I need to be able to automatically read loop points within Pd when unknown samples are being loaded.
So far I had to get the loop points in other softwares and write lists for Pd to be able to handle them.
This is rather tedious and also prone for errors. One little typo and you get clicks!
Especially this won't work for simply loading new sample into an existing Pd patch by other users.
I hope Dan didn't give up on ths . . .
Ingo
From: Alexandre Torres Porres [mailto:porres@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2020 9:13 PM To: Ingo Cc: Pd-List Subject: Re: [PD] Sample loop - start and end point (WAV files)
Ingo, did you have any luck on this throughout the year?
I'm also curious on this. Anyway, I had another thread here and someone suggested http://loopauditioneer.sourceforge.net/ that seems to read loop points - but I can't test it because it's linux
Em qua., 12 de fev. de 2020 às 05:39, Ingo <ingo@miamiwave.com mailto:ingo@miamiwave.com > escreveu:
There are softwares like AwaveStudio that do nothing else but format conversion between different sampler formats that can handle the loop points as well.
I have been working with hardware samplers since the 80ies and used (mainly) softwares like SoundForge or Wavelab for looping. There was no extra file. All hardware samplers could read the loops. Once a file was looped with one sampler it would be looped with the next one. Same thing with modern software Samplers like Kontakt. I can use a sample that I looped in Wavelab and load it into SoundForge and it recognizes the loops. (There are options for multiple loops, though that might not work with some samplers.)
It can't be such a secret since over 30 years that all manufacturers (software or hardware) know about it but noone else. I have been looking around but couldn't find any information where the loops are stored in the file but they definitely are.
Ingo
-----Original Message----- From: Pd-list [mailto:pd-list-bounces@lists.iem.at mailto:pd-list-bounces@lists.iem.at ] On Behalf Of Roman Haefeli Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 8:48 AM To: pd-list@lists.iem.at mailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] Sample loop - start and end point (WAV files)
On Tue, 2020-02-11 at 21:22 -0800, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
Well, I was really really hoping to see information here on how to get loop points from these files ;)
I looked around for specifications of the .wav-format and I wasn't able to find one that looks canonical. The ones I found didn't mention any loop start- and endpoints. I wonder whether there is a convention about how to encode this into some sort of metadata stored with file. Some description of the format describe the ability to store anything as metdata. Personally, I never dealt with such files (at least not knowingly). Maybe a good start would be to provide such a file, so that people can a have a look at it. It might be not that difficult to retrieve such data with something like mrpeach's [binfile], once you know
how it is stored.
Roman
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On Tue, 2020-02-11 at 19:55 -0500, William Huston wrote:
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 5:07 PM IOhannes m zmölnig zmoelnig@iem.at wrote:
so *you* only need to implement whatever backend you want. keep in mind, that Pd doesn't depend on any external library for doing the encoding/decoding, and afaict it should stay that way. so you "just" need to implement mp3, ogg, wmv, flac,... from scratch.
good luck.
What is your personal vision for what PD should be, IOhannes? What would you say are the core values of PD?
Frankly, I consider this attitude arrogant, rude and offensive. Telling me what I "need to" do!!!
While I agree with some of your points, I think you are overreacting. IOhannes didn't tell you specifically what to do, but stated what needs to be done for a format to be supported natively in Pd. It seems there is some agreement among many members that additional dependencies shouldn't be added frivolously. Pd runs on many different platforms and environments, as Pd and libpd. This is possible due to its minimal set of dependencies. IOhannes derived his statement from that fact.
What is more important is that Pd supports externals and nobody will stop you from loading or playing mp3 with externals. Let me mention the famous [readanysf~] [1] that supports whatever format you can think of. Obviously, it depends on quite a large-ish framework.
Roman