Can anybody help me point out who uses PD to teach electronic music? .. (Algoritmic) Composistion Synthesis DSP-theory real-time performance
What are the pros and cons for using it to teach DSP-theory?
Best, Eirik Blekesaune
I guess you mean in the academic world? As was recently mentioned in another thread, Tom Erbe (SoundHack author) uses PD to teach synthesis at CalArts, I think that's a pretty good endorsement!
d.
Eirik Arthur Blekesaune wrote:
Can anybody help me point out who uses PD to teach electronic music? .. (Algoritmic) Composistion Synthesis DSP-theory real-time performance
I use PD with our MA/MSc students in Interactive Media and (some) in
Music Technology here at the University of Limerick.
http://www.csis.ul.ie/imedia/
http://www.ccmcm.ie/
http://www.idc.ul.ie/
- Mikael Fernström
On 29 May 2007, at 09:39, Eirik Arthur Blekesaune wrote:
Can anybody help me point out who uses PD to teach electronic
music? .. (Algoritmic) Composistion Synthesis DSP-theory real-time performanceWhat are the pros and cons for using it to teach DSP-theory?
Best, Eirik Blekesaune _______________________________________________ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
We've been using Pd to teach sound and soon sensors/interaction here:
I try to make all my materials freely available. It seems that we
should all work together and come up with some kick-ass teaching
materials. Plus I think it would save us all a lot of work in the
long run.
You might also be interested in Miller's new book which using Pd
directly to teach DSP:
http://www.worldscibooks.com/compsci/6277.html
.hc
On May 29, 2007, at 6:32 AM, Mikael Fernstrom wrote:
I use PD with our MA/MSc students in Interactive Media and (some) in Music Technology here at the University of Limerick. http://www.csis.ul.ie/imedia/ http://www.ccmcm.ie/ http://www.idc.ul.ie/
- Mikael Fernström
On 29 May 2007, at 09:39, Eirik Arthur Blekesaune wrote:
Can anybody help me point out who uses PD to teach electronic music? .. (Algoritmic) Composistion Synthesis DSP-theory real-time performance
What are the pros and cons for using it to teach DSP-theory?
Best, Eirik Blekesaune _______________________________________________ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
http://at.or.at/hans/
We are using pd as the main tool in our course about musical communication ranging from basic synthesizer construction to sensors/video/sound interactions. http://www.speech.kth.se/courses/1213/
We chose it since it is free and available on all platforms making it easy for the students to use it. pd is a little bit hard to start with due to the lacking coherence and documentation but the pd-extended version has helped a lot (Thanks Hans!). We do everything "pd-extended compliant" now. Also a number of master thesis students as well as researchers are using pd in projects right now.
I think the basic tutorials, such as the tutorial patches included in pd and Miller's tutorials, are pretty good to get started and understand the concepts. However, the most common problem is the following: I want to do this <operation> - is there block that can do it and what's the name of it? In the majority of cases in the beginning there is actually already a block that can do it but there is no way to find out except browse the whole documentation including all packages and guess. It used to pop up a text file with blocks ordered according to purpose in vanilla pd which I think was of great help. I suppose this is considered to lowtech and inflexible considering all the packages etc. Anyway, some way of going from <function> to block would improve the usability of pd enormously. I think this is something we could engage in given that there are some simple tasks to do. For example, could the different blocks be give a category (e.g. "audio"), subcategory (e.g. "filter"), library (e.g. "zexy"), a one-liner description (e.g. "one-pole filter") and then include that in the browser so that you can sort and display according to categories? /Anders
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
We've been using Pd to teach sound and soon sensors/interaction here:
I try to make all my materials freely available. It seems that we
should all work together and come up with some kick-ass teaching
materials. Plus I think it would save us all a lot of work in the
long run.You might also be interested in Miller's new book which using Pd
directly to teach DSP:http://www.worldscibooks.com/compsci/6277.html
.hc
On May 29, 2007, at 6:32 AM, Mikael Fernstrom wrote:
I use PD with our MA/MSc students in Interactive Media and (some) in Music Technology here at the University of Limerick. http://www.csis.ul.ie/imedia/ http://www.ccmcm.ie/ http://www.idc.ul.ie/
- Mikael Fernström
On 29 May 2007, at 09:39, Eirik Arthur Blekesaune wrote:
Can anybody help me point out who uses PD to teach electronic music? .. (Algoritmic) Composistion Synthesis DSP-theory real-time performance
What are the pros and cons for using it to teach DSP-theory?
Best, Eirik Blekesaune _______________________________________________ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
http://at.or.at/hans/
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Hallo, Anders Friberg hat gesagt: // Anders Friberg wrote:
However, the most common problem is the following: I want to do this <operation> - is there block that can do it and what's the name of it? In the majority of cases in the beginning there is actually already a block that can do it but there is no way to find out except browse the whole documentation including all packages and guess. It used to pop up a text file with blocks ordered according to purpose in vanilla pd which I think was of great help. I suppose this is considered to lowtech and inflexible considering all the packages etc.
I consider "learning the blocks" part of a more general issue with learning Pd. Like many other languages, natural ones like English or programming languages like C, a user of that language needs to develop a higher level of literacy.
When children learn how to read, at first they decipher words letter by letter: "c-a-t", "d-o-g", "e-l-e-p-h-a-n-t" etc.
Adult people don't do this anymore, instead they immediatly recognize complete words or even phrases and sentences, youknowhaddamean?
In Pd developing this kind of an eye for phrases, blocks, idioms or whatever you call them is just as important. Having a dictionary at hand is of not much help here, you only gain that ability through constant use, through reading and writing patches yourself.
That's why I started to do special excercises in my workshops to improve the student's literacy in Pd. A simple one is attached: hellokitty.pd contains some Pd phrases, some "kittens" as I call them, that have lost their home. Students are asked to decipher them and think about, what might be the correct "home" for these "kittens", the place they belong to in a Pd patch. Giving the kittens a name may help with remembering their structure.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
Hallo, Frank Barknecht hat gesagt: // Frank Barknecht wrote:
When children learn how to read, at first they decipher words letter by letter: "c-a-t", "d-o-g", "e-l-e-p-h-a-n-t" etc.
Adult people don't do this anymore, instead they immediatly recognize complete words or even phrases and sentences, youknowhaddamean?
In Pd developing this kind of an eye for phrases, blocks, idioms or whatever you call them is just as important.
Quick addition: This also is the reason, why I rather try to avoid using all the externals included in pd-extended in workshops. Actually I'd prefer using only plain Miller-Pd there (which also is available for OS-X 10.3, which many people still use). When learning to read, you generally don't start with "Gravity's Rainbox" but rather with "Dr. Seuss's ABC".
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
On May 30, 2007, at 6:45 AM, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo, Frank Barknecht hat gesagt: // Frank Barknecht wrote:
When children learn how to read, at first they decipher words letter by letter: "c-a-t", "d-o-g", "e-l-e-p-h-a-n-t" etc.
Adult people don't do this anymore, instead they immediatly recognize complete words or even phrases and sentences, youknowhaddamean?
In Pd developing this kind of an eye for phrases, blocks, idioms or whatever you call them is just as important.
Quick addition: This also is the reason, why I rather try to avoid using all the externals included in pd-extended in workshops. Actually I'd prefer using only plain Miller-Pd there (which also is available for OS-X 10.3, which many people still use). When learning to read, you generally don't start with "Gravity's Rainbox" but rather with "Dr. Seuss's ABC".
I agree with this concept for sure, but I think that it's quite
useful to install Pd-extended in the context of an intro workshop
even if the students will only be using the basics. The reason is
that getting everything installed and running properly can easily
trip up newbies, while the issues that arise are quite trivial for an
experienced Pder.
Ideally, having the whole package doesn't get in the way of newbies
starting out with the basics. If it does, that should be fixed.
Once it is installed, then newbies can start to explore thru all the
examples after the workshop and see where it leads them. That's a
key part of my philosophy here: enabling the spirit of play and
exploration.
.hc
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are
deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from
scarcity." -John Gilmore
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Ideally, having the whole package doesn't get in the way of newbies
starting out with the basics. If it does, that should be fixed.
Once it is installed, then newbies can start to explore thru all the
examples after the workshop and see where it leads them. That's a
key part of my philosophy here: enabling the spirit of play and
exploration.
I think, basically we aren't that far away from each other: The large number of examples in pd-extended of course is like a collection of texts for the students to study and learn from.
And of course in my workshops, I do use pd-extended, let alone because it's the only available collection of externals. (I still would like to have it a bit more customizable instead of being so monolithic, and I believe the help-files are too "chatty", but that's another story.)
But my main point is this: You can learn what [route] means, you can learn how [list prepend] works. But you only learn how to "speak" Pd as soon as you understand what this means:
"something" [0
| |
[list prepend 2]
|
[route 0 1 2 3]
| | | | |
With pd-extended it's tempting to just use [demux 4] instead but then you wouldn't have gained a deeper understanding of the language, you would only know another word.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
On May 30, 2007, at 10:18 AM, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Ideally, having the whole package doesn't get in the way of newbies starting out with the basics. If it does, that should be fixed. Once it is installed, then newbies can start to explore thru all the examples after the workshop and see where it leads them. That's a key part of my philosophy here: enabling the spirit of play and exploration.
I think, basically we aren't that far away from each other: The large number of examples in pd-extended of course is like a collection of texts for the students to study and learn from.
And of course in my workshops, I do use pd-extended, let alone because it's the only available collection of externals. (I still would like to have it a bit more customizable instead of being so monolithic, and I believe the help-files are too "chatty", but that's another story.)
But my main point is this: You can learn what [route] means, you can learn how [list prepend] works. But you only learn how to "speak" Pd as soon as you understand what this means:
"something" [0
| | [list prepend 2] | [route 0 1 2 3] | | | | |With pd-extended it's tempting to just use [demux 4] instead but then you wouldn't have gained a deeper understanding of the language, you would only know another word.
Yeah, that is definitely true. Right now, Pd-extended is definitely
a grab bag of stuff. Pd-vanilla is not enough to do a lot of things,
so there needs to be more objects. Ideally, there would be a
coherent framework of libraries for Pd, like python, java, etc. etc.
Also, it would be very helpful to define "best practices" when
patching Pd. That is still very much undefined in a grand scheme.
Of course each Pd user has their own practices, but there isn't much
of a unified body of technique like with other languages.
.hc
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are
deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from
scarcity." -John Gilmore
I totally agree with fbar on this. Reading Dr. Seuss before Thomas Pynchon is a must!
However, Pd-extended is a nice one to give people because it allows much more exploration of the Pdiverse.
I guess I think that the best approach is to give them Pd-extended, but only show the vanilla objects and documentation first. Then, after they are proficient with the basics, blow their minds with Gem, hid, Pduino, list-abs, rtc-lib, rradical, etc. That way they don't have to get scared of compiling stuff too early on, and can have a nice learning curve.
~Kyle
On 5/30/07, Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org wrote:
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Ideally, having the whole package doesn't get in the way of newbies starting out with the basics. If it does, that should be fixed. Once it is installed, then newbies can start to explore thru all the examples after the workshop and see where it leads them. That's a key part of my philosophy here: enabling the spirit of play and exploration.
I think, basically we aren't that far away from each other: The large number of examples in pd-extended of course is like a collection of texts for the students to study and learn from.
And of course in my workshops, I do use pd-extended, let alone because it's the only available collection of externals. (I still would like to have it a bit more customizable instead of being so monolithic, and I believe the help-files are too "chatty", but that's another story.)
But my main point is this: You can learn what [route] means, you can learn how [list prepend] works. But you only learn how to "speak" Pd as soon as you understand what this means:
"something" [0
| | [list prepend 2] | [route 0 1 2 3] | | | | |With pd-extended it's tempting to just use [demux 4] instead but then you wouldn't have gained a deeper understanding of the language, you would only know another word.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Wed, 2007-05-30 at 12:29 -0500, Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
I guess I think that the best approach is to give them Pd-extended, but only show the vanilla objects and documentation first. Then, after they are proficient with the basics, blow their minds with Gem, hid, Pduino, list-abs, rtc-lib, rradical, etc.
why not show them pduino, list-abs, rtc-lib, rradical from the beginning? to stick with the [list prepend]-[route] vs. [demux] example: the problem here is, that [demux] is an external, which doesn't give you an idea, how things could be done otherwise (without specialized objects). if [demux] would be substituted by an abstraction made of [list prepend]-[route], you could have an insight, how things are done. in other words, i think, there is no drawback in using abstractions from the beginning, but maybe there is one with externals.
roman
Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de
True, I agree that showing the power of abstractions 'under the hood' is a great thing. but still, it should be carefully used.
For instance, teaching someone how to use PixelTango before their learning Gem is a bad idea. I like to look at PixelTango abstractions now to get ideas for my own Gem toys, but that is because I started using Gem from the basic objects first.
I guess what I was trying to say is that it's nice to show off these flashy libraries and all, but I wouldn't want to be teaching someone something and have them get distracted by the glitz before they get a solid grasp on the principles.
Now, for things such as demux, et al, I wholeheartedly agree that we should be trying to do this with standard objects. There is a definite gray area here between abstractions that act as applications and those that mimic native Pd objects or low-level externals.
Sometimes I think the motto of Pd should be:
"The picture is the program is the programming language is the application is the GUI is the tangled mess is the where am I again?"
~Kyle
On 5/30/07, Roman Haefeli reduzierer@yahoo.de wrote:
On Wed, 2007-05-30 at 12:29 -0500, Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
I guess I think that the best approach is to give them Pd-extended, but only show the vanilla objects and documentation first. Then, after they are proficient with the basics, blow their minds with Gem, hid, Pduino, list-abs, rtc-lib, rradical, etc.
why not show them pduino, list-abs, rtc-lib, rradical from the beginning? to stick with the [list prepend]-[route] vs. [demux] example: the problem here is, that [demux] is an external, which doesn't give you an idea, how things could be done otherwise (without specialized objects). if [demux] would be substituted by an abstraction made of [list prepend]-[route], you could have an insight, how things are done. in other words, i think, there is no drawback in using abstractions from the beginning, but maybe there is one with externals.
roman
Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de
This is a quite extreme viewpoint. Translate that to language learning, for example a German learning English. It implies that using a dictionary from German to English is forbidden and the only available dictionary is from English to German. Then assume that the German guy have some basic understanding of the English language but forgot one word... This is exactly my own case. Maybe I am away from pd for a year (God forbid!). Then most of my fluency will fade away and a dictionary would be extremely helpful. I tend to remember functionality but not the exact block name. Am I alone? We also try to avoid any fancy stuff in the basic tutorials but we use pd-extended ourselfs and we provide ready-made patches using pd-extended that the students can interface to. /Anders
Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo, Anders Friberg hat gesagt: // Anders Friberg wrote:
However, the most common problem is the following: I want to do this <operation> - is there block that can do it and what's the name of it? In the majority of cases in the beginning there is actually already a block that can do it but there is no way to find out except browse the whole documentation including all packages and guess. It used to pop up a text file with blocks ordered according to purpose in vanilla pd which I think was of great help. I suppose this is considered to lowtech and inflexible considering all the packages etc.
I consider "learning the blocks" part of a more general issue with learning Pd. Like many other languages, natural ones like English or programming languages like C, a user of that language needs to develop a higher level of literacy.
When children learn how to read, at first they decipher words letter by letter: "c-a-t", "d-o-g", "e-l-e-p-h-a-n-t" etc.
Adult people don't do this anymore, instead they immediatly recognize complete words or even phrases and sentences, youknowhaddamean?
In Pd developing this kind of an eye for phrases, blocks, idioms or whatever you call them is just as important. Having a dictionary at hand is of not much help here, you only gain that ability through constant use, through reading and writing patches yourself.
That's why I started to do special excercises in my workshops to improve the student's literacy in Pd. A simple one is attached: hellokitty.pd contains some Pd phrases, some "kittens" as I call them, that have lost their home. Students are asked to decipher them and think about, what might be the correct "home" for these "kittens", the place they belong to in a Pd patch. Giving the kittens a name may help with remembering their structure.
Ciao
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
I sometimes forget even the names of the objects that I have written,
so I would use the dictionary for sure. So you are not alone in the
desire for a dictionary, there is at least two of us ;)
.hc
On May 30, 2007, at 7:51 AM, Anders Friberg wrote:
This is a quite extreme viewpoint. Translate that to language
learning, for example a German learning English. It implies that
using a dictionary from German to English is forbidden and the only
available dictionary is from English to German. Then assume that
the German guy have some basic understanding of the English
language but forgot one word... This is exactly my own case. Maybe
I am away from pd for a year (God forbid!). Then most of my fluency
will fade away and a dictionary would be extremely helpful. I tend
to remember functionality but not the exact block name. Am I alone? We also try to avoid any fancy stuff in the basic tutorials but we
use pd-extended ourselfs and we provide ready-made patches using pd- extended that the students can interface to. /AndersFrank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo, Anders Friberg hat gesagt: // Anders Friberg wrote:
However, the most common problem is the following: I want to do this - is there block that can do it and what's the name of it? In the majority of cases in the beginning there is actually
already a block that can do it but there is no way to find out except
browse the whole documentation including all packages and guess. It used to
pop up a text file with blocks ordered according to purpose in vanilla
pd which I think was of great help. I suppose this is considered to
lowtech and inflexible considering all the packages etc.I consider "learning the blocks" part of a more general issue with learning Pd. Like many other languages, natural ones like English or programming languages like C, a user of that language needs to
develop a higher level of literacy.When children learn how to read, at first they decipher words letter by letter: "c-a-t", "d-o-g", "e-l-e-p-h-a-n-t" etc.
Adult people don't do this anymore, instead they immediatly recognize complete words or even phrases and sentences, youknowhaddamean?
In Pd developing this kind of an eye for phrases, blocks, idioms or whatever you call them is just as important. Having a dictionary at hand is of not much help here, you only gain that ability through constant use, through reading and writing patches yourself.
That's why I started to do special excercises in my workshops to improve the student's literacy in Pd. A simple one is attached: hellokitty.pd contains some Pd phrases, some "kittens" as I call
them, that have lost their home. Students are asked to decipher them and think about, what might be the correct "home" for these "kittens",
the place they belong to in a Pd patch. Giving the kittens a name may
help with remembering their structure.Ciao
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
--
Anders Friberg Associate Professor Speech, Music and Hearing, KTH Lindstedtsvägen 24 S-100 44 Stockholm http://www.speech.kth.se/~andersfr/ work: +46 8 7907876 mobile: +46 70 7746287 _______________________________________________ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I sometimes forget even the names of the objects that I have written,
so I would use the dictionary for sure.
But you already have the eye for discovering structures in a Pd patch. Of course everyone of us sometimes is missing a word (I always have dict.leo.org open for quick German->English translations), but as I wrote: To develop that "eye" for Pd "words", you need something besides a dictionary.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
Three, I would like to help build such a database. marius.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I sometimes forget even the names of the objects that I have written, so I would use the dictionary for sure. So you are not alone in the desire for a dictionary, there is at least two of us ;)
.hc
On May 30, 2007, at 7:51 AM, Anders Friberg wrote:
This is a quite extreme viewpoint. Translate that to language learning, for example a German learning English. It implies that using a dictionary from German to English is forbidden and the only available dictionary is from English to German. Then assume that the German guy have some basic understanding of the English language but forgot one word... This is exactly my own case. Maybe I am away from pd for a year (God forbid!). Then most of my fluency will fade away and a dictionary would be extremely helpful. I tend to remember functionality but not the exact block name. Am I alone? We also try to avoid any fancy stuff in the basic tutorials but we use pd-extended ourselfs and we provide ready-made patches using pd-extended that the students can interface to. /Anders
Sounds great! I started to think about how it could be done. One simple start would be to include the list of objects according to function that is found in core-pd. However, I think it would be better to put in in the help menu rather than then right-clicking on the canvas. This would encourage newbies to use the standard pd blocks to start with.
A general function-to-block dictionary is more complicated since there seems to be something like 1000 help files in the doc section... One possibility could be to put a text label in each help file, for example: ;;;pd-extended classification;;;category: audio;function: filter, subfunction: bandpass;;; This is just an example. It could be done in a number of ways e.g. just give keywords. The audio/control classification is of course already evident from the tilde sign.This could be complemented with a short "one-liner": ;;;description: A 2-pole bandpass filter;;;
Then this would be divided in thee tasks:
- agree on the list of categories and functions
- label the help files ( I guess that it would be easy for everyone to
do in the CVS?) 3. Implement sorting according to function in the browser. (If the browser search the doc section a new lib would be included automatically.)
The first step can be done on this list or in the pd doc group. The second step can easily be distributed. I could spend some time with it and I think I could mobilize more people at the department as well. The last step depends mostly on hans so it would be great to hear your opinion about it. /Anders
marius schebella wrote:
Three, I would like to help build such a database. marius.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I sometimes forget even the names of the objects that I have written, so I would use the dictionary for sure. So you are not alone in the desire for a dictionary, there is at least two of us ;)
.hc
On May 30, 2007, at 7:51 AM, Anders Friberg wrote:
This is a quite extreme viewpoint. Translate that to language learning, for example a German learning English. It implies that using a dictionary from German to English is forbidden and the only available dictionary is from English to German. Then assume that the German guy have some basic understanding of the English language but forgot one word... This is exactly my own case. Maybe I am away from pd for a year (God forbid!). Then most of my fluency will fade away and a dictionary would be extremely helpful. I tend to remember functionality but not the exact block name. Am I alone? We also try to avoid any fancy stuff in the basic tutorials but we use pd-extended ourselfs and we provide ready-made patches using pd-extended that the students can interface to. /Anders
Hallo, Anders Friberg hat gesagt: // Anders Friberg wrote:
This is a quite extreme viewpoint. Translate that to language learning, for example a German learning English. It implies that using a dictionary from German to English is forbidden and the only available dictionary is from English to German.
That's not really what I meant: Nothing is forbidden, and a dictionary is a helpful and useful tool. But nobody learns a language by reading the dictionary itself. You learn the language by reading normal books, the newspaper, going to the movies and by talking to people. If you'd read the dictionary, you would develope a strange kind of language, maybe using words, nobody would acutally use in the street.
Translated to Pd this would mean: You learn by reading and writing normal patches, reading the tutorials etc. and only look up the help-patches for reference.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
Yeah, a search mechanism for all the help patches would be very
helpful. There was a pretty good spec for such a system that came
out of the PDDP meetings, but alas, it has not been implemented. It
seems that it would take someone getting funded to focus on it in
order to make it happen. It's a big task, and unfortunately, none of
us found enough time to get it going.
.hc
On May 30, 2007, at 2:56 AM, Anders Friberg wrote:
We are using pd as the main tool in our course about musical
communication ranging from basic synthesizer construction to
sensors/video/sound interactions. http://www.speech.kth.se/courses/1213/We chose it since it is free and available on all platforms making
it easy for the students to use it. pd is a little bit hard to
start with due to the lacking coherence and documentation but the
pd-extended version has helped a lot (Thanks Hans!). We do
everything "pd-extended compliant" now. Also a number of master
thesis students as well as researchers are using pd in projects
right now.I think the basic tutorials, such as the tutorial patches included
in pd and Miller's tutorials, are pretty good to get started and
understand the concepts. However, the most common problem is the
following: I want to do this <operation> - is there block that can do it and
what's the name of it? In the majority of cases in the beginning there is actually already
a block that can do it but there is no way to find out except
browse the whole documentation including all packages and guess. It
used to pop up a text file with blocks ordered according to purpose
in vanilla pd which I think was of great help. I suppose this is
considered to lowtech and inflexible considering all the packages etc. Anyway, some way of going from <function> to block would improve
the usability of pd enormously. I think this is something we could
engage in given that there are some simple tasks to do. For
example, could the different blocks be give a category (e.g.
"audio"), subcategory (e.g. "filter"), library (e.g. "zexy"), a one- liner description (e.g. "one-pole filter") and then include that in
the browser so that you can sort and display according to categories? /AndersHans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
We've been using Pd to teach sound and soon sensors/interaction here:
I try to make all my materials freely available. It seems that we should all work together and come up with some kick-ass teaching materials. Plus I think it would save us all a lot of work in the long run.
You might also be interested in Miller's new book which using Pd directly to teach DSP:
http://www.worldscibooks.com/compsci/6277.html
.hc
On May 29, 2007, at 6:32 AM, Mikael Fernstrom wrote:
I use PD with our MA/MSc students in Interactive Media and (some) in Music Technology here at the University of Limerick. http://www.csis.ul.ie/imedia/ http://www.ccmcm.ie/ http://www.idc.ul.ie/
- Mikael Fernström
On 29 May 2007, at 09:39, Eirik Arthur Blekesaune wrote:
Can anybody help me point out who uses PD to teach electronic music? .. (Algoritmic) Composistion Synthesis DSP-theory real-time performance
What are the pros and cons for using it to teach DSP-theory?
Best, Eirik Blekesaune _______________________________________________ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
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http://at.or.at/hans/
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related to the telescope. -Edsger Dykstra
On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 08:56:07AM +0200, Anders Friberg wrote:
pd is a little bit hard to start with due to the lacking coherence and documentation but the pd-extended
Seriously? The Pd documentation is amongst the best and clearest I have seen. If it hadn't been for that I would still be using Csound.
the concepts. However, the most common problem is the following: I want to do this <operation> - is there block that can do it and what's the name of it?
In the 0.40-2 version of Pd you can right click on a canvas and select 'help' and it will open a patch with a list of all possible internals and their function.
Best,
Chris.
We are nearing the end of our Music 172 (Computer Music II) class at
UCSD. I developed a few new PD patches to cover the main topics in
this course (sampling/looping, filters, granular techniques, spectral
techniques). The class blog is at
As far as pros, it is really nice to show DSP algorithms in a graphic
programming language, and most common techniques can be explored.
Much better than when I used Csound to teach these things.
As for the cons, some things are difficult to show the class without
resorting to externals (time domain convolution for example) - and
more things (or everything) should be sample accurate (like metro,
vline and delay).
Tom
On May 29, 2007, at 3:32 AM, Mikael Fernstrom wrote:
I use PD with our MA/MSc students in Interactive Media and (some) in Music Technology here at the University of Limerick. http://www.csis.ul.ie/imedia/ http://www.ccmcm.ie/ http://www.idc.ul.ie/
- Mikael Fernström
On 29 May 2007, at 09:39, Eirik Arthur Blekesaune wrote:
Can anybody help me point out who uses PD to teach electronic music? .. (Algoritmic) Composistion Synthesis DSP-theory real-time performance
What are the pros and cons for using it to teach DSP-theory?
Best, Eirik Blekesaune _______________________________________________ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
tom erbe ~ tre@ucsd.edu ~ studio director - computer music ~ ucsd
department of music
Hallo, Eirik Arthur Blekesaune hat gesagt: // Eirik Arthur Blekesaune wrote:
Can anybody help me point out who uses PD to teach electronic music? .. (Algoritmic) Composistion Synthesis DSP-theory real-time performance
What are the pros and cons for using it to teach DSP-theory?
I currently teach a bit of that at www.khm.de and obviously Miller uses it, the IEM does and probably many others.
Generally lets put it that way: Max/MSP is a standard tool to teach what you mentioned above. Without starting a war if Pd or Max/MSP are the better tools, I do believe that Pd can be used as a drop-in replacement in most university courses of that kind.
The advantage of Pd here is, that it is much cheaper for the students, that you can look at the source, if you're so inclined, and that it runs on Linux.
The major disadvantage of Pd is a less organized documentation, but if you teach Pd in a school, that is not a big issue IMO, as you generally make up your own teaching material anyways. At least I do.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
On Tue, 29 May 2007 10:39:40 +0200 "Eirik Arthur Blekesaune" blekesaune@gmail.com wrote:
Can anybody help me point out who uses PD to teach electronic music? .. (Algoritmic) Composistion Synthesis DSP-theory real-time performance
Electronic music and DSP are intersecting, I think Pd is unique in its potential to teach the greatest amount in a single environment. Before Pd you could only cover such a wide range of principles with a pile of different tools.
How to break up units into music processing, composition, synthesis, sequencing? Here's my unit outlines...
http://www.obiwannabe.co.uk/html/workshops/units-list.html
What are the pros and cons for using it to teach DSP-theory?
Pros: DSP has a very wide applications field, with Pd it's easy to demonstrate/model lots of things, not just sound, but possibly radar, process control, machine listening, without expensive DSP development boards. If I had more time and resources I would include some physical/electronics and interfacing stuff, because that is useful for real time performance and instrument designers imo.
With GUI canvas concept it is possible to build active teaching tools with Pd itself. Active lecture slides that are patches and contain links to other patches makes Pd a very powerful demonstration device for CBT.
It's free open source software, perfect for teaching, now students only need knowledge and motivation, not expensive licenses to get education.
Cons, hmm, as Tom said, the fine grain sample/block level could be better somehow. There's a river to cross when moving between teaching about delays and filters. And for Pd to be a mature as a development tool as well as for teaching it needs to output code that can be compiled into new externals or used in separate applications. I believe these two things are related. It's like Pd is missing a lowest level where you can basically write simplified code into objects and compile them.
Best, Eirik Blekesaune
Hallo, Andy Farnell hat gesagt: // Andy Farnell wrote:
How to break up units into music processing, composition, synthesis, sequencing? Here's my unit outlines...
One thing that I always forget to ask students to bring besides laptop, USB-sticks etc. but that is out absolutely crucial and is still often missing: They have to bring a *mouse*. Patching Pd with the touchpad is a major pain.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
hi, andy
really interesting site:
http://www.obiwannabe.co.uk/html/compositions/compositions.html
only bad thing is that most of your music-example patches for download require abstractions that are not included. that's sad, because i really liked the pokesdown-patch (the only one that works)
btw: padawan vst-instruments are also great !
ciao
oliver
-
Anders Friberg -
Andy Farnell -
Chris McCormick -
Derek Holzer -
Eirik Arthur Blekesaune -
Frank Barknecht -
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
Kyle Klipowicz -
marius schebella -
Mikael Fernstrom -
oliver -
Roman Haefeli -
Tom Erbe