As the object box sizes are determined by the font and it’s sizing, I’d argue that they are directly connected.
On Feb 22, 2017, at 4:26 PM, pd-list-request@lists.iem.at wrote:
From: Roman Haefeli <reduzent@gmail.com mailto:reduzent@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [PD] Cross-platform uniform GUI rendering of patches. Date: February 22, 2017 at 3:20:39 PM MST To: Pd-List <pd-list@lists.iem.at mailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at>
On Mit, 2017-02-22 at 14:06 -0700, Dan Wilcox wrote:
In the source code for Pd, I have also changed the default font weight to “normal”, so there shouldn’t be a need for the bold version. I have to fix the Windows build to be able to see it for myself next, though.
Isn't changing the font weight a separate issue from fixing consistent appearance across platforms, in that the font weight is a design decision while using the same font and working font metrics are a bug fix?
I propose that changing the font weight is treated as a separate step. Miller probably consciously chose bold weight and we shouldn't treat it as a bug. Personally, I'm not even in favor of font weight normal, though I hardly care.
Roman
Dan Wilcox @danomatika http://twitter.com/danomatika danomatika.com http://danomatika.com/ robotcowboy.com http://robotcowboy.com/
You are right but changing from Bold to Normal *don't* change object box size. At least on Windows.
Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.
From: Pd-list pd-list-bounces@lists.iem.at on behalf of Dan Wilcox danomatika@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 11:44 PM To: Roman Haefeli Cc: Pd-List Subject: Re: [PD] Cross-platform uniform GUI rendering of patches.
As the object box sizes are determined by the font and it’s sizing, I’d argue that they are directly connected.
On Feb 22, 2017, at 4:26 PM, pd-list-request@lists.iem.atmailto:pd-list-request@lists.iem.at wrote:
From: Roman Haefeli <reduzent@gmail.commailto:reduzent@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [PD] Cross-platform uniform GUI rendering of patches. Date: February 22, 2017 at 3:20:39 PM MST To: Pd-List <pd-list@lists.iem.atmailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at>
On Mit, 2017-02-22 at 14:06 -0700, Dan Wilcox wrote: In the source code for Pd, I have also changed the default font weight to “normal”, so there shouldn’t be a need for the bold version. I have to fix the Windows build to be able to see it for myself next, though.
Isn't changing the font weight a separate issue from fixing consistent appearance across platforms, in that the font weight is a design decision while using the same font and working font metrics are a bug fix?
I propose that changing the font weight is treated as a separate step. Miller probably consciously chose bold weight and we shouldn't treat it as a bug. Personally, I'm not even in favor of font weight normal, though I hardly care.
Roman
Dan Wilcox @danomatikahttp://twitter.com/danomatika danomatika.comhttp://danomatika.com robotcowboy.comhttp://robotcowboy.com
2017-02-22 20:56 GMT-03:00 Lucas Cordiviola lucarda27@hotmail.com:
You are right but changing from Bold to Normal *don't* change object box size. At least on Windows.
didn't change in Mac Os either, nothing but the fact that is soo hard on the eyes that it makes it really hard to read any text
[image: Imagem inline 1]
can you guys confirm you were able to see my screenshot I put in the body of the last message? I wonder if that works since apparently attaching them do not
2017-02-23 12:30 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com:
2017-02-22 20:56 GMT-03:00 Lucas Cordiviola lucarda27@hotmail.com:
You are right but changing from Bold to Normal *don't* change object box size. At least on Windows.
didn't change in Mac Os either, nothing but the fact that is soo hard on the eyes that it makes it really hard to read any text
[image: Imagem inline 1]
can you guys confirm you were able to see my screenshot I put in the body of the last message? I wonder if that works since apparently attaching them do not
I works.
I think the only one that don't get the attachments is Dan.
I get attachments also.
Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.
This could be because you are using Dan's branch that is not shipping “DejaVuSansMono-Bold.ttf”
and trying to make bold the not-bold.ttf gives bad results.
Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.
From: Pd-list pd-list-bounces@lists.iem.at on behalf of Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 3:30 PM To: Pd-List Subject: Re: [PD] Cross-platform uniform GUI rendering of patches.
2017-02-22 20:56 GMT-03:00 Lucas Cordiviola <lucarda27@hotmail.commailto:lucarda27@hotmail.com>:
You are right but changing from Bold to Normal *don't* change object box size. At least on Windows.
didn't change in Mac Os either, nothing but the fact that is soo hard on the eyes that it makes it really hard to read any text
[Imagem inline 1]
2017-02-23 15:32 GMT-03:00 Lucas Cordiviola lucarda27@hotmail.com:
This could be because you are using Dan's branch that is not shipping “DejaVuSansMono-Bold.ttf”
and trying to make bold the not-bold.ttf gives bad results.
I'm not using Dan's branch... I'm using the regular Pd Vanilla 0.47-1
trying it with bold doesn't change the objects size, as you said it didn't happen in windows...
It's just really hard on the eyes and makes it really hard to read any text because bold was never intended to be the "regular" default font... no font in the world was designed to be used as bold by default... or italic... or bold/italic... that's why they are "bold" or "italic" and not regular...
It makes sense to have those options just to highlight and outline some parts of the text, but pd's comment do not allow that... so I wonder why the possibility of hardcoding it to bold exists at all... let alone be the default, and if linux people really thought that was nice, I really wonder why and would like to hear about it - I just can't see why so far...
cheers
and trying to make bold the not-bold.ttf gives bad results.
I'm not using Dan's branch... I'm using the regular Pd Vanilla 0.47-1
Good to know,
trying it with bold doesn't change the objects size, as you said it didn't happen in windows...
Good to know also.
It's just really hard on the eyes and makes it really hard to read any text because bold was never intended to be the "regular" default font... no font in the world was designed to be used as bold by default... or italic... or bold/italic... that's why they are "bold" or "italic" and not regular...
If you open a patch with grater font size, “list of objects” for example, looks bad with Bold?
It makes sense to have those options just to highlight and outline some parts of the text, but pd's comment do not allow that... so I wonder why the possibility of hardcoding it to bold exists at all... let alone be the default, and if linux people really thought that was nice, I really wonder why and would like to hear about it - I just can't see why so far...
Seems OSX users are not used to Bold.
Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.
Seems OSX users are not used to Bold.
not sure what that's supposed to mean... if it's the case that anyone who never used pd in bold isn't used to it, then the same applies for Pd extended users, Pd-l2ork and Purr Data users in all platforms, right?
cause it's not like a linux or windows person opens Pd for the 1st time in the new purr data system and goes "hey, how come this isn't bold? I'm no mac user... give me *bold*"
On Don, 2017-02-23 at 15:41 -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
It's just really hard on the eyes and makes it really hard to read any text because bold was never intended to be the "regular" default font... no font in the world was designed to be used as bold by default... or italic... or bold/italic... that's why they are "bold" or "italic" and not regular...
It makes sense to have those options just to highlight and outline some parts of the text, but pd's comment do not allow that... so I wonder why the possibility of hardcoding it to bold exists at all... let alone be the default, and if linux people really thought that was nice, I really wonder why and would like to hear about it - I just can't see why so far...
What you are saying is totally plausible, I think, in that it would be strange to use bold as the "normal" weight. However, I do not consider a patch running text. Rather it's diagram of keywords. I do believe it's easier for me to read a patch with bold words in boxes, but maybe this is only esoteric. Maybe it's also that I think bold text is easier on the eyes, because it somewhat sticks out bit from the boxes. With normal weight, both boxes and fonts use 1px wide lines and it's visually messier. Pd-extended solved that by using gray outlines which makes them appear still a bit lighter. Personally, I don't like that Pd-extended's boxes are opaque.
I don't really have a strong point, at the same time I also do not think that one is much worse than the other.
Roman
2017-02-23 17:38 GMT-03:00 Roman Haefeli reduzent@gmail.com:
I don't really have a strong point, at the same time I also do not think that one is much worse than the other.
It's because, as you said, you don't think of it as text... I guess it is less of an issue if you take text and comments out of the way, but you have to think about documentation, help files, tutorials, the audio examples from miller's book that come in Pd... it is a nightmare to me! My eyes hurt at the first glimpse ;)
[image: Imagem inline 1]
*let's start writing emails in bold to see how that goes as well, so I can point it out...* *it's weird right? :) *
maybe makes sense to show a normal weight version of the patch for comparison...
quite less poluted if you ask me, and it's not like I cannot read the patch as well for not being bold too...
[image: Imagem inline 1]
2017-02-24 1:10 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com:
2017-02-23 17:38 GMT-03:00 Roman Haefeli reduzent@gmail.com:
I don't really have a strong point, at the same time I also do not think that one is much worse than the other.
It's because, as you said, you don't think of it as text... I guess it is less of an issue if you take text and comments out of the way, but you have to think about documentation, help files, tutorials, the audio examples from miller's book that come in Pd... it is a nightmare to me! My eyes hurt at the first glimpse ;)
[image: Imagem inline 1]
*let's start writing emails in bold to see how that goes as well, so I can point it out...* *it's weird right? :) *
maybe makes sense to show a normal weight version of the patch for comparison...
quite less poluted if you ask me, and it's not like I cannot read the patch as well for not being bold too...
I don't really have a strong point, at the same time I also do not think that one is much worse than the other.
I think the comments look better with the regular font but I think it's fine to have the objects as bold. Esp with diff weights of fonts, it's easier to pick out the objects at a quick glance. I think that could be particularly helpful since Pd vanilla (at least without any tcl plugins) doesn't distinguish objects from the rest of the other things on the canvas with different colors or fills.
Derek
just realized that even stuff like GUI's labels become bold, yikes... that kinda compromises the design of some abstraction patches I have that use them.
2017-02-24 4:16 GMT-03:00 Derek Kwan derek.x.kwan@gmail.com:
maybe makes sense to show a normal weight version of the patch for comparison...
quite less poluted if you ask me, and it's not like I cannot read the
patch
as well for not being bold too...
I don't really have a strong point, at the same time I also do not think that one is much worse than the other.
I think the comments look better with the regular font but I think it's fine to have the objects as bold. Esp with diff weights of fonts, it's easier to pick out the objects at a quick glance. I think that could be particularly helpful since Pd vanilla (at least without any tcl plugins) doesn't distinguish objects from the rest of the other things on the canvas with different colors or fills.
Derek
-- Derek Kwan www.derekxkwan.com
Like pd user, I experienced bold in object boxes looks great, but in documentation, help files simply looks terrible for reading and for posterior learning.. :/
I'm came from pd linux -> windows -> (and finally) OSx, and for me it was always a relief to read the documentation in OSx, something I only can really understand with this discussion.
my one cent.. :)
Cheers Esteban
Em sex, 24 de fev de 2017 às 11:50, Alexandre Torres Porres < porres@gmail.com> escreveu:
just realized that even stuff like GUI's labels become bold, yikes... that kinda compromises the design of some abstraction patches I have that use them.
2017-02-24 4:16 GMT-03:00 Derek Kwan derek.x.kwan@gmail.com:
maybe makes sense to show a normal weight version of the patch for comparison...
quite less poluted if you ask me, and it's not like I cannot read the
patch
as well for not being bold too...
I don't really have a strong point, at the same time I also do not think that one is much worse than the other.
I think the comments look better with the regular font but I think it's fine to have the objects as bold. Esp with diff weights of fonts, it's easier to pick out the objects at a quick glance. I think that could be particularly helpful since Pd vanilla (at least without any tcl plugins) doesn't distinguish objects from the rest of the other things on the canvas with different colors or fills.
Derek
-- Derek Kwan www.derekxkwan.com
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