Hi, list members, I've been using Pd for several years, and till now I've been able to solve my problems by myself or consulting this list, so thanks very much everyone for your help in these years.
But now I've got a problem that I can´t solve, so I´ll appreciate so much your help. I'm working with pix_delay, an object that allows me to move the real time image (with pix_video) between present and past changing dinamically the delay's lenght. I have made several installations with this concept and all them worked well, but I've always desired to expand the delay's lenght (1800 frames at this moment). In my imagination I can see a one year's delay. Even if I understand this is imposible rigth now, I would like to find a way to, at least, expand this limit, but when I increase the number in pix_delay and I create the gem window Pd crashes.
I assumed this happened for a hardware limit, cause I was working with a not very powerful minimac (2.7 GHz Intel Core i7, 16 GB RAM, and a AMD Radeon HD 6630M 256 MB Graphic Card). But some days ago I bought a brand new Imac (Retina 5K, 27-imch, Mid 2015 with a 3,3 GHz Intel Core i5 processor, 32 GB RAM and a AMD Radeon R9 M290 2048 MB Graphic Card) and I get an almost identical problem,(I arrived to 1850 lenght) so I feel a bit desperate and without a direction to explore. Does anybody knows the reason for this limit, and if it´s possible to expand? It´s an issue related in somehow to the Pd architecture? I´ll appreciate so much your help.
I prefer to work with 0.42.5 Pd extended version, but I've tried with the 0-43.4 version suffering the same problem.
I send you in an attachment the smallest version of the patch, with the resolution I work with (if I increase the resolution the lenght must be smaller and viceversa). When you load the patch you have to wait a bit more than a minute, so the lenght's delay can be loaded. You can change the number in the right inlet and see the changes.
Thanks a lot in advance!
Arturo Moya
On 09/19/2015 04:41 PM, Arturo Moya Villén wrote:
delay's lenght (1800 frames at this moment). In my imagination I can see a one year's delay. Even if I understand this is imposible rigth now, I would
i don't think that there is anything in Gem preventing you from doing that.
like to find a way to, at least, expand this limit, but when I increase the number in pix_delay and I create the gem window Pd crashes.
I assumed this happened for a hardware limit, cause I was working with a not very powerful minimac (2.7 GHz Intel Core i7, 16 GB RAM, and a AMD Radeon HD 6630M 256 MB Graphic Card). But some days ago I bought a brand new Imac (Retina 5K, 27-imch, Mid 2015 with a 3,3 GHz Intel Core i5 processor, 32 GB RAM and a AMD Radeon R9 M290 2048 MB Graphic Card) and I get an almost identical problem,(I arrived to 1850 lenght) so I feel a bit desperate and without a direction to explore. Does anybody knows the reason
there are two things you would need:
- enough memory to store 1 year of video frames stored at 20fps (or
whatever your fps is)
- an operating system that allows you to address that much memory.
a quick calculation should give you the amount of memory needed:
- the size of one frame depends on the resolution and colourspace you
are using; assuming full HD and RGBA, that makes: 1920 * 1080 * 4 = 8294400 bytes
to delay a video for one year, you will need to store a couple of rames: 20fps * 60sec * 60min * 24h * 356d = 615168000 frames
which gives you a total of required bytes
8294400 * 615168000 = 5102449459200000 if i managed to do without errors, thats about 4.6 Petabyte (or about 148500 times more memory than you currently have. so i dunno whether you can cram that much memory in your brand new Imac; but Blue Waters¹ has at least 1.5PB, so we are getting somewhere).
you can of course reduce the size a bit, e.g. by using greyscale images instead of RGBA, which will reduce the required size to just a bit more than 1.1PB; or use less resolution.
the second requirement is easier to meet: if you want to address more that 4GB of RAM, you need a 64bit OS *and* the application (Pd/Gem) must be 64bit as well. E.g. using a linux based system can do that easily².
fgmdsar IOhannes
¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Waters ² due to lack of manpower, the 64bit port of Gem on OSX still lacks proper video capture. as for w32, i don't think anybody ever tried to build Pd and/or Gem for w32/64bit.
Or you use a mechanism to store the videos in files on harddrive and use them later however you want
Thanks for your reply, Johnny. I'm not sure it's possible to do my project in the way you say. Maybe it's helpful if I explain it a bit more: a camera is permanently recording and playing, and changing the right inlet number of pix_delay I could go to the past and back to the present, like a time machine; in some works with a fixed mechanism, in others depending of how people reacts in space. In my last installation, the amount of movement of people in front of the camera causes that time goes to past (I even put a real watch ;) to see how the second hand went backwards) or returns to present when people don´t move. Do you think I could access all these data in a so dynamical way, using arrays or something like that? Thanks again
2015-09-20 23:32 GMT+02:00 Johnny Mauser via Pd-list pd-list@lists.iem.at:
Or you use a mechanism to store the videos in files on harddrive and use them later however you want
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Hi Arturo,
i once build a machine that should record too long videos for one file, and playing them back later in the same show, so i had to split it automatically in parts. I imagine if you now give your parts clever names (maybe time stamp) you could dynamically access all the material through this.
best wishes,
-johnny
Am 21.09.2015 um 10:04 schrieb Arturo Moya Villén arturomoyavillen@gmail.com:
Thanks for your reply, Johnny. I'm not sure it's possible to do my project in the way you say. Maybe it's helpful if I explain it a bit more: a camera is permanently recording and playing, and changing the right inlet number of pix_delay I could go to the past and back to the present, like a time machine; in some works with a fixed mechanism, in others depending of how people reacts in space. In my last installation, the amount of movement of people in front of the camera causes that time goes to past (I even put a real watch ;) to see how the second hand went backwards) or returns to present when people don´t move. Do you think I could access all these data in a so dynamical way, using arrays or something like that? Thanks again
2015-09-20 23:32 GMT+02:00 Johnny Mauser via Pd-list pd-list@lists.iem.at: Or you use a mechanism to store the videos in files on harddrive and use them later however you want
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- Teléfono: 655333548 Skype: arturomoyavillen www.arturomoyavillen.com EX, arte electronico y experimental www.electrovisiones.com www.silbeuysplight.com
Thanks for the hint, Johnny, splitting automatically the videos is a interesting idea, and I'll use it if Iwant to access specifics moments in time. In my last project the point in time was determinated depending on people's movement, but I accessed to it in a continuous way, passing through every precedent moment.
Thanks again!
Best,
Arturo
2015-09-21 12:59 GMT+02:00 hi via Pd-list pd-list@lists.iem.at:
Hi Arturo,
i once build a machine that should record too long videos for one file, and playing them back later in the same show, so i had to split it automatically in parts. I imagine if you now give your parts clever names (maybe time stamp) you could dynamically access all the material through this.
best wishes,
-johnny
Am 21.09.2015 um 10:04 schrieb Arturo Moya Villén < arturomoyavillen@gmail.com>:
Thanks for your reply, Johnny. I'm not sure it's possible to do my project in the way you say. Maybe it's helpful if I explain it a bit more: a camera is permanently recording and playing, and changing the right inlet number of pix_delay I could go to the past and back to the present, like a time machine; in some works with a fixed mechanism, in others depending of how people reacts in space. In my last installation, the amount of movement of people in front of the camera causes that time goes to past (I even put a real watch ;) to see how the second hand went backwards) or returns to present when people don´t move. Do you think I could access all these data in a so dynamical way, using arrays or something like that? Thanks again
2015-09-20 23:32 GMT+02:00 Johnny Mauser via Pd-list <pd-list@lists.iem.at
:
Or you use a mechanism to store the videos in files on harddrive and use them later however you want
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- Teléfono: 655333548 Skype: arturomoyavillen www.arturomoyavillen.com http://es-mg42.mail.yahoo.com/neo/www.arturomoyavillen.com EX, arte electronico y experimental http://arteelectronico.net/ www.electrovisiones.com http://es-mg42.mail.yahoo.com/neo/www.electrovisiones.com www.silbeuysplight.com http://es-mg42.mail.yahoo.com/neo/www.silbeuysplight.com
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So many thanks for all the hints. Now I have some differentes paths and new perspectives to explore. I´ll tell you how the new project advances. Best,
Arturo
2015-09-23 13:28 GMT+02:00 Arturo Moya Villén arturomoyavillen@gmail.com:
Thanks for the hint, Johnny, splitting automatically the videos is a interesting idea, and I'll use it if Iwant to access specifics moments in time. In my last project the point in time was determinated depending on people's movement, but I accessed to it in a continuous way, passing through every precedent moment.
Thanks again!
Best,
Arturo
2015-09-21 12:59 GMT+02:00 hi via Pd-list pd-list@lists.iem.at:
Hi Arturo,
i once build a machine that should record too long videos for one file, and playing them back later in the same show, so i had to split it automatically in parts. I imagine if you now give your parts clever names (maybe time stamp) you could dynamically access all the material through this.
best wishes,
-johnny
Am 21.09.2015 um 10:04 schrieb Arturo Moya Villén < arturomoyavillen@gmail.com>:
Thanks for your reply, Johnny. I'm not sure it's possible to do my project in the way you say. Maybe it's helpful if I explain it a bit more: a camera is permanently recording and playing, and changing the right inlet number of pix_delay I could go to the past and back to the present, like a time machine; in some works with a fixed mechanism, in others depending of how people reacts in space. In my last installation, the amount of movement of people in front of the camera causes that time goes to past (I even put a real watch ;) to see how the second hand went backwards) or returns to present when people don´t move. Do you think I could access all these data in a so dynamical way, using arrays or something like that? Thanks again
2015-09-20 23:32 GMT+02:00 Johnny Mauser via Pd-list < pd-list@lists.iem.at>:
Or you use a mechanism to store the videos in files on harddrive and use them later however you want
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- Teléfono: 655333548 Skype: arturomoyavillen www.arturomoyavillen.com http://es-mg42.mail.yahoo.com/neo/www.arturomoyavillen.com EX, arte electronico y experimental http://arteelectronico.net/ www.electrovisiones.com http://es-mg42.mail.yahoo.com/neo/www.electrovisiones.com www.silbeuysplight.com http://es-mg42.mail.yahoo.com/neo/www.silbeuysplight.com
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- Teléfono: 655333548 Skype: arturomoyavillen www.arturomoyavillen.com http://es-mg42.mail.yahoo.com/neo/www.arturomoyavillen.com EX, arte electronico y experimental http://arteelectronico.net/ www.electrovisiones.com http://es-mg42.mail.yahoo.com/neo/www.electrovisiones.com www.silbeuysplight.com http://es-mg42.mail.yahoo.com/neo/www.silbeuysplight.com
hi,
the amount of people's movement has a limit, it's the farthest point it can reach in the movie, and it determines your buffer size using pix_buffer
Le 21/09/2015 10:04, Arturo Moya Villén a écrit :
Thanks for your reply, Johnny. I'm not sure it's possible to do my project in the way you say. Maybe it's helpful if I explain it a bit more: a camera is permanently recording and playing, and changing the right inlet number of pix_delay I could go to the past and back to the present, like a time machine; in some works with a fixed mechanism, in others depending of how people reacts in space. In my last installation, the amount of movement of people in front of the camera causes that time goes to past (I even put a real watch ;) to see how the second hand went backwards) or returns to present when people don´t move. Do you think I could access all these data in a so dynamical way, using arrays or something like that? Thanks again
2015-09-20 23:32 GMT+02:00 Johnny Mauser via Pd-list <pd-list@lists.iem.at mailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at>:
Or you use a mechanism to store the videos in files on harddrive and use them later however you want _______________________________________________ Pd-list@lists.iem.at <mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at> mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list-- Teléfono: 655333548 Skype: arturomoyavillen www.arturomoyavillen.com http://es-mg42.mail.yahoo.com/neo/www.arturomoyavillen.com EX, arte electronico y experimental http://arteelectronico.net/ www.electrovisiones.com http://es-mg42.mail.yahoo.com/neo/www.electrovisiones.com www.silbeuysplight.com http://es-mg42.mail.yahoo.com/neo/www.silbeuysplight.com
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ssd buffer?
if i remember correctly you can capture a video stream to a file and read it simultaneously and asynchronously (neologism?) using linux perhaps have a look for examples of that,
or......use tapes :-)
So many thanks, IOhannes, for your generous and detailed reply! The idea of making a one year's delay it was only in my mind, and now I can see it´s not a so distant sci-fi matter! At this moment I'll be happy using the lenghtest delay my Imac can support. I´m gonna try to do it with a 64 bits Linux version, installing a virtual linux machine on my mac. I hope it works!
Thanks again for the hint!
Arturo
2015-09-20 21:38 GMT+02:00 IOhannes m zmölnig zmoelnig@iem.at:
On 09/19/2015 04:41 PM, Arturo Moya Villén wrote:
delay's lenght (1800 frames at this moment). In my imagination I can see
a
one year's delay. Even if I understand this is imposible rigth now, I
would
i don't think that there is anything in Gem preventing you from doing that.
like to find a way to, at least, expand this limit, but when I increase
the
number in pix_delay and I create the gem window Pd crashes.
I assumed this happened for a hardware limit, cause I was working with a not very powerful minimac (2.7 GHz Intel Core i7, 16 GB RAM, and a AMD Radeon HD 6630M 256 MB Graphic Card). But some days ago I bought a brand new Imac (Retina 5K, 27-imch, Mid 2015 with a 3,3 GHz Intel Core i5 processor, 32 GB RAM and a AMD Radeon R9 M290 2048 MB Graphic Card) and I get an almost identical problem,(I arrived to 1850 lenght) so I feel a
bit
desperate and without a direction to explore. Does anybody knows the
reason
there are two things you would need:
- enough memory to store 1 year of video frames stored at 20fps (or
whatever your fps is)
- an operating system that allows you to address that much memory.
a quick calculation should give you the amount of memory needed:
- the size of one frame depends on the resolution and colourspace you
are using; assuming full HD and RGBA, that makes: 1920 * 1080 * 4 = 8294400 bytes
to delay a video for one year, you will need to store a couple of rames: 20fps * 60sec * 60min * 24h * 356d = 615168000 frames
which gives you a total of required bytes
8294400 * 615168000 = 5102449459200000 if i managed to do without errors, thats about 4.6 Petabyte (or about 148500 times more memory than you currently have. so i dunno whether you can cram that much memory in your brand new Imac; but Blue Waters¹ has at least 1.5PB, so we are getting somewhere).
you can of course reduce the size a bit, e.g. by using greyscale images instead of RGBA, which will reduce the required size to just a bit more than 1.1PB; or use less resolution.
the second requirement is easier to meet: if you want to address more that 4GB of RAM, you need a 64bit OS *and* the application (Pd/Gem) must be 64bit as well. E.g. using a linux based system can do that easily².
fgmdsar IOhannes
¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Waters ² due to lack of manpower, the 64bit port of Gem on OSX still lacks proper video capture. as for w32, i don't think anybody ever tried to build Pd and/or Gem for w32/64bit.
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
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Arturo Moya Villén -
hi -
IOhannes m zmölnig -
Johnny Mauser
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patrice colet -
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