hi all,
sorry for posting an OT mail to the mainlist, but i really want to have as many opinions as posible on this.
i (as list admin) have just received an email by somebody who wants their mail to be removed from the archive:
<snip> Subject: FORMAT NOTICE
August, 22 2010
I posted a message on the pd-announce list, being not aware that it was a public list: http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-announce/XXXX
Someone replied to my message, also publicly, on the pd-list list: http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/XXXXX
Today, I ask you to remove these two messages from your website, because I don't want my name to appear publicly on the web.
If they are not removed within 15 days, I will do the necessary to sue you.
XXX XXXXX
</snip>
i must say, that i'm a bit perplex.
while in principal i'm not opposed to removing the post if they have any problems with it, however, i find the tone at least impertinent, and would prefer to not give way to a threat to sue.
i have thus answered:
<answer> hold on!
i understand that you probably don't want an unsubscribe request to be available in a public archive.
however, all the pd-mailinglists have always made it clear, that everything will be archived and made available to the public.
thus, by subscribing to one of those mailinglists, you have given your agreement that all your postings to the list will be made available via those archives.
furthermore, you are of course free to ask that your posting is removed from the archives. however, if somebody replied to your posting and has made this available to the public, then i don't see what entitles you to request a removal. it is their posting.
the pd-lists are an open forum. they are no place to threaten people with sueing.
fgmadsr IOhannes
</answer>
what do you think of all this?
fgmasdr IOhannes
Hi, Are the two messages of any interest to Pd users? If the answer is no, then i don't really see the point in not removing them, although i understand that this would go against the pd-list rules. This thing is i find this list to be extremely helpful and i d be very sad if this threat is credible and the future of pd-list actually endangered. I don't know anything about internet-related laws, though...
Pierre
2010/8/23 IEM - network operating center (IOhannes m zmoelnig) noc@iem.at
hi all,
sorry for posting an OT mail to the mainlist, but i really want to have as many opinions as posible on this.
i (as list admin) have just received an email by somebody who wants their mail to be removed from the archive:
<snip> Subject: FORMAT NOTICE
August, 22 2010
I posted a message on the pd-announce list, being not aware that it was a public list: http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-announce/XXXX
Someone replied to my message, also publicly, on the pd-list list: http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/XXXXX
Today, I ask you to remove these two messages from your website, because I don't want my name to appear publicly on the web.
If they are not removed within 15 days, I will do the necessary to sue you.
XXX XXXXX
</snip>
i must say, that i'm a bit perplex.
while in principal i'm not opposed to removing the post if they have any problems with it, however, i find the tone at least impertinent, and would prefer to not give way to a threat to sue.
i have thus answered:
<answer> hold on!
i understand that you probably don't want an unsubscribe request to be available in a public archive.
however, all the pd-mailinglists have always made it clear, that everything will be archived and made available to the public.
thus, by subscribing to one of those mailinglists, you have given your agreement that all your postings to the list will be made available via those archives.
furthermore, you are of course free to ask that your posting is removed from the archives. however, if somebody replied to your posting and has made this available to the public, then i don't see what entitles you to request a removal. it is their posting.
the pd-lists are an open forum. they are no place to threaten people with sueing.
fgmadsr IOhannes
</answer>
what do you think of all this?
fgmasdr IOhannes
-- IEM - network operation center mailto:noc@iem.at
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Whether or not the user sent the e-mail to a public or private list is beside the point IMO. One must accept in the very act of sending ANY e-mail that they have risked having this information released to the public.
IANAL, but I only think it'd be reasonable he could sue if he could demonstrate that this "violation of privacy" was intentional or the result of neglect, not the result of his own incompetence and lack of common sense.
-Johnny
On 08/23/2010 07:20 AM, Pierre Massat wrote:
Hi, Are the two messages of any interest to Pd users? If the answer is no, then i don't really see the point in not removing them, although i understand that this would go against the pd-list rules. This thing is i find this list to be extremely helpful and i d be very sad if this threat is credible and the future of pd-list actually endangered. I don't know anything about internet-related laws, though...
Pierre
2010/8/23 IEM - network operating center (IOhannes m zmoelnig) <noc@iem.at mailto:noc@iem.at>
hi all, sorry for posting an OT mail to the mainlist, but i really want to have as many opinions as posible on this. i (as list admin) have just received an email by somebody who wants their mail to be removed from the archive: <snip> Subject: FORMAT NOTICE August, 22 2010 I posted a message on the pd-announce list, being not aware that it was a public list: http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-announce/XXXX Someone replied to my message, also publicly, on the pd-list list: http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/XXXXX Today, I ask you to remove these two messages from your website, because I don't want my name to appear publicly on the web. If they are not removed within 15 days, I will do the necessary to sue you. XXX XXXXX </snip> i must say, that i'm a bit perplex. while in principal i'm not opposed to removing the post if they have any problems with it, however, i find the tone at least impertinent, and would prefer to not give way to a threat to sue. i have thus answered: <answer> hold on! i understand that you probably don't want an unsubscribe request to be available in a public archive. however, all the pd-mailinglists have always made it clear, that everything will be archived and made available to the public. thus, by subscribing to one of those mailinglists, you have given your agreement that all your postings to the list will be made available via those archives. furthermore, you are of course free to ask that your posting is removed from the archives. however, if somebody replied to your posting and has made this available to the public, then i don't see what entitles you to request a removal. it is their posting. the pd-lists are an open forum. they are no place to threaten people with sueing. fgmadsr IOhannes </answer> what do you think of all this? fgmasdr IOhannes -- IEM - network operation center mailto:noc@iem.at <mailto:noc@iem.at> _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at <mailto:Pd-list@iem.at> mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
probably not the best thread to introduce myself on, but, this:
If you honor this request, do you create precedent to remove anyone's
message
whenever they ask? If there is no legal obligation, I suggest leaving the list archive in tact.
and this:
call the FSF! :)
and also call the EFF. (perhaps more useful than calling the FSF?)
this is a pretty ridiculous request, and would be an even more ridiculous lawsuit. who would he sue, anyways? the admins? miller? the university of california? mark yudof?
and hi, nice to meet you all. i'm kevin, i work mostly in max, but have been pretty compelled by pd lately.
best, k
On Mon, 2010-08-23 at 12:49 +0200, IEM - network operating center (IOhannes m zmoelnig) wrote:
hi all,
sorry for posting an OT mail to the mainlist, but i really want to have as many opinions as posible on this.
i (as list admin) have just received an email by somebody who wants their mail to be removed from the archive:
<snip> Subject: FORMAT NOTICE
August, 22 2010
I posted a message on the pd-announce list, being not aware that it was a public list: http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-announce/XXXX
Someone replied to my message, also publicly, on the pd-list list: http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/XXXXX
Today, I ask you to remove these two messages from your website, because I don't want my name to appear publicly on the web.
If they are not removed within 15 days, I will do the necessary to sue you.
XXX XXXXX
</snip>
i must say, that i'm a bit perplex.
while in principal i'm not opposed to removing the post if they have any problems with it, however, i find the tone at least impertinent, and would prefer to not give way to a threat to sue.
i have thus answered:
<answer> hold on!
i understand that you probably don't want an unsubscribe request to be available in a public archive.
however, all the pd-mailinglists have always made it clear, that everything will be archived and made available to the public.
thus, by subscribing to one of those mailinglists, you have given your agreement that all your postings to the list will be made available via those archives.
furthermore, you are of course free to ask that your posting is removed from the archives. however, if somebody replied to your posting and has made this available to the public, then i don't see what entitles you to request a removal. it is their posting.
the pd-lists are an open forum. they are no place to threaten people with sueing.
fgmadsr IOhannes
</answer>
what do you think of all this?
now thats...
give the first hint that the list is public. (2 clicks and he/she would have seen what the case 100% is)
sense)
but yeah, as the registration page dosnt seem to explicit say that the list is public, but also that it would be private. (dunno about the confimation mail.) so i have no idea how it would hold in court...
but wouldnt he/she first have to prove that the list is supposed to be private and not he/she just assuming it ?
and maybe he/she got this part wrong "This is a private list, which means that the _list_ of members is not available to non-members"
but personally, i would like to see if he/she can pull it of, as i've never even heard that someone sues a mailing list...
call the FSF! :)
"leute gibts" .andre
ps. i see in germany lots of mails that explicit say ~"not for public", did his/hers mail have it ? and who sais that even i (as person) am not allowed to put someone elses emails (that was sent to me) somewhere public... is there a law not allowing me to write someones name in internet ? or even someones email ?
It seems to me as the person who erroneously posted to a public list chose the wood hammer method right from the beginning. This doesn't sound very serious to me. If the list would be hosted in Switzerland and I'd be admin of it, I'd feel quite safe. Not that I am a legal expert, but if someone would have been able so easily to file a suit against an entity from Switzerland present on the Internet, that probably would have raised some waves and I likely would have heard about it. Usually it takes much more to successfully file a suit than some admin _not_ removing a mail immediately from a list archive, which clearly stated that it is public.
I guess in your position I'd first remove the original mail, as requested by the person. If that is not satisfying already, I would probably ask him/her to talk to other person who answered publicly and say that they both should find an agreement on how to proceed with the second mail.
Roman
On Mon, 2010-08-23 at 12:49 +0200, IEM - network operating center (IOhannes m zmoelnig) wrote:
hi all,
sorry for posting an OT mail to the mainlist, but i really want to have as many opinions as posible on this.
i (as list admin) have just received an email by somebody who wants their mail to be removed from the archive:
<snip> Subject: FORMAT NOTICE
August, 22 2010
I posted a message on the pd-announce list, being not aware that it was a public list: http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-announce/XXXX
Someone replied to my message, also publicly, on the pd-list list: http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/XXXXX
Today, I ask you to remove these two messages from your website, because I don't want my name to appear publicly on the web.
If they are not removed within 15 days, I will do the necessary to sue you.
XXX XXXXX
</snip>
i must say, that i'm a bit perplex.
while in principal i'm not opposed to removing the post if they have any problems with it, however, i find the tone at least impertinent, and would prefer to not give way to a threat to sue.
i have thus answered:
<answer> hold on!
i understand that you probably don't want an unsubscribe request to be available in a public archive.
however, all the pd-mailinglists have always made it clear, that everything will be archived and made available to the public.
thus, by subscribing to one of those mailinglists, you have given your agreement that all your postings to the list will be made available via those archives.
furthermore, you are of course free to ask that your posting is removed from the archives. however, if somebody replied to your posting and has made this available to the public, then i don't see what entitles you to request a removal. it is their posting.
the pd-lists are an open forum. they are no place to threaten people with sueing.
fgmadsr IOhannes
</answer>
what do you think of all this?
fgmasdr IOhannes
As Pierre says, if the post and definitely the reply is of interest for all subscribers I would keep it - especially after asking myself with what argument will he sue the list? On what grounds? It is a public list which every subscriber agrees to when he/she signs up. If he didn't read it I assume it is his problem, not the problem of the list owner. Also to remove a post of which he is not the author is on of the silliest things I have heard in a long time.
When I encounter nasty people I tend to become more stubborn. Perhaps a healthy attitude...
Cheers Jürgen
On Aug 23, 2010, at 6:49 PM, IEM - network operating center (IOhannes m zmoelnig) wrote:
hi all,
sorry for posting an OT mail to the mainlist, but i really want to have as many opinions as posible on this.
i (as list admin) have just received an email by somebody who wants their mail to be removed from the archive:
<snip> Subject: FORMAT NOTICE
August, 22 2010
I posted a message on the pd-announce list, being not aware that it was a public list: http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-announce/XXXX
Someone replied to my message, also publicly, on the pd-list list: http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/XXXXX
Today, I ask you to remove these two messages from your website, because I don't want my name to appear publicly on the web.
If they are not removed within 15 days, I will do the necessary to sue you.
XXX XXXXX
</snip>
i must say, that i'm a bit perplex.
while in principal i'm not opposed to removing the post if they have any problems with it, however, i find the tone at least impertinent, and would prefer to not give way to a threat to sue.
i have thus answered:
<answer> hold on!
i understand that you probably don't want an unsubscribe request to be available in a public archive.
however, all the pd-mailinglists have always made it clear, that everything will be archived and made available to the public.
thus, by subscribing to one of those mailinglists, you have given your agreement that all your postings to the list will be made available via those archives.
furthermore, you are of course free to ask that your posting is removed from the archives. however, if somebody replied to your posting and has made this available to the public, then i don't see what entitles you to request a removal. it is their posting.
the pd-lists are an open forum. they are no place to threaten people with sueing.
fgmadsr IOhannes
</answer>
what do you think of all this?
fgmasdr IOhannes
-- IEM - network operation center mailto:noc@iem.at
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 5:49 AM, IEM - network operating center (IOhannes m zmoelnig) noc@iem.at wrote:
what do you think of all this?
fgmasdr IOhannes
The best thing to do would not be to waste too much time on it. Maybe this is an unfair generalization, but an admin's work involves unreasonable/stupid requests on a daily basis. Maybe this one is exemplary, but it belongs in the same file with the rest, and a token reply: "Here ya go, jerk. It's done."
Chuck
On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 4:46 PM, Charles Henry czhenry@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 5:49 AM, IEM - network operating center (IOhannes m zmoelnig) noc@iem.at wrote:
what do you think of all this?
fgmasdr IOhannes
While, if i was the list owner, would responsibly slap a pie in the face of the guy :o), it may also make sense to add the word "public" somewhere to the listinfo page, and to the Welcome mail as well. Right now it says "private" which can confuse those who are easily confused.
Andras
On Aug 23, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Charles Henry wrote:
On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 5:49 AM, IEM - network operating center (IOhannes m zmoelnig) noc@iem.at wrote:
what do you think of all this?
fgmasdr IOhannes
The best thing to do would not be to waste too much time on it. Maybe this is an unfair generalization, but an admin's work involves unreasonable/stupid requests on a daily basis. Maybe this one is exemplary, but it belongs in the same file with the rest, and a token reply: "Here ya go, jerk. It's done."
I would say a polite, "sorry you have been inconvenienced, it is a
public archive and therefore we have a responsibility to the public to
keep the archive intact as it is." As far as I know, we haven't
removed things or changed things in the archive (even to fix links
like pure-data.org). We shouldn't start now for this lame excuse.
In the US, he would have zero grounds to sue, but could file a suit.
But filing a suit is a lot of work to do, so it rarely happens.
.hc
¡El pueblo unido jamás será vencido!