I just found out that transifex automatically syncs translated strings from one "Resource" to another. Since Pd-extended has some differences in the strings from Pd vanilla, we can take advantage of that very nice feature by having separate "Resources" for "pd-extended" and "pure-data". I created that, and its already been synced.
I also discovered a few more strings in Pd-extended that were not translatable, and fixed those. So the languages that were at 100% are now at 96% translated. I think they are all Mac OS X-specific.
Here's the new Pd-extended project: https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/puredata/resource/pd-extended/
And now that the very useful search plugin is included in Pd-extended, its easy to translate that as well: https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/puredata/resource/search-plugin/
.hc
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 2:05 PM Subject: [PD] more fun with translations
I just found out that transifex automatically syncs translated strings from one "Resource" to another. Since Pd-extended has some differences in the strings from Pd vanilla, we can take advantage of that very nice feature by having separate "Resources" for "pd-extended" and "pure-data". I created that, and its already been synced.
I also discovered a few more strings in Pd-extended that were not translatable, and fixed those. So the languages that were at 100% are now at 96% translated. I think they are all Mac OS X-specific.
Here's the new Pd-extended project: https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/puredata/resource/pd-extended/
And now that the very useful search plugin is included in Pd-extended, its easy to translate that as well: https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/puredata/resource/search-plugin/
Is it possible to translate comments of the help patches in 5.reference in a similar manner?
-Jonathan
.hc _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Dec 26, 2012, at 3:27 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 2:05 PM Subject: [PD] more fun with translations
I just found out that transifex automatically syncs translated strings from one "Resource" to another. Since Pd-extended has some differences in the strings from Pd vanilla, we can take advantage of that very nice feature by having separate "Resources" for "pd-extended" and "pure-data". I created that, and its already been synced.
I also discovered a few more strings in Pd-extended that were not translatable, and fixed those. So the languages that were at 100% are now at 96% translated.
I think they are all Mac OS X-specific.Here's the new Pd-extended project: https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/puredata/resource/pd-extended/
And now that the very useful search plugin is included in Pd-extended, its easy to translate that as well: https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/puredata/resource/search-plugin/
Is it possible to translate comments of the help patches in 5.reference in a similar manner?
Not currently, but that is something I think we can do. I guess the trickiest part is the file format. I suppose there could be a .po file per-language-per-patch. I'd rather see all the translations embedded into the patch.
.hc
Hi all,
I make them 100% translation of Japanese. hope any other Japanese Pd users would check and revise them.
Cheers,
Sei
-- __/__/__/__/__/__/__/__/__/__/__/__/__/__/__/__/__/ Seiichiro Matsumura
sei@low-tech-ism.com http://low-tech-ism.com/ __/__/__/__/__/__/__/__/__/__/__/__/__/__/__/__/__/
2012/12/27 Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at:
On Dec 26, 2012, at 3:27 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 2:05 PM Subject: [PD] more fun with translations
I just found out that transifex automatically syncs translated strings from one "Resource" to another. Since Pd-extended has some differences in the strings from Pd vanilla, we can take advantage of that very nice feature by having separate "Resources" for "pd-extended" and "pure-data". I created that, and its already been synced.
I also discovered a few more strings in Pd-extended that were not translatable, and fixed those. So the languages that were at 100% are now at 96% translated. I think they are all Mac OS X-specific.
Here's the new Pd-extended project: https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/puredata/resource/pd-extended/
And now that the very useful search plugin is included in Pd-extended, its easy to translate that as well: https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/puredata/resource/search-plugin/
Is it possible to translate comments of the help patches in 5.reference in a similar manner?
Not currently, but that is something I think we can do. I guess the trickiest part is the file format. I suppose there could be a .po file per-language-per-patch. I'd rather see all the translations embedded into the patch.
.hc
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 8:54 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
On Dec 26, 2012, at 3:27 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 2:05 PM Subject: [PD] more fun with translations
[...]
Is it possible to translate comments of the help patches in 5.reference in
a similar
manner?
Not currently, but that is something I think we can do. I guess the trickiest part is the file format. I suppose there could be a .po file per-language-per-patch. I'd rather see all the translations embedded into the patch.
Just made the search-plugin keywords translatable. There's a [_ "name"] for the keyword, then a "keyword" which is not translated. Seems to work fine.
But again, notice that this just kicks the ball down the field for the non-English-speaking user. Sure, they can get a list of included "bandlimited" objects, but they all have english descriptions, patches, and readmes (if they have them at all).
-Jonathan
On Dec 27, 2012, at 3:17 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 8:54 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
On Dec 26, 2012, at 3:27 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 2:05 PM Subject: [PD] more fun with translations
[...]
Is it possible to translate comments of the help patches in 5.reference in
a similar
manner?
Not currently, but that is something I think we can do. I guess the trickiest part is the file format. I suppose there could be a .po file per-language-per-patch. I'd rather see all the translations embedded into the patch.
Just made the search-plugin keywords translatable. There's a [_ "name"] for the keyword, then a "keyword" which is not translated. Seems to work fine.
But again, notice that this just kicks the ball down the field for the non-English-speaking user. Sure, they can get a list of included "bandlimited" objects, but they all have english descriptions, patches, and readmes (if they have them at all).
-Jonathan
Definitely true. But this is one step that needs to happen, so its definitely not wasted effort at all. Plus someone now can put [pd META] tags into their tutorials in whatever language, like Porres' portuguese tutorials, and they would be searchable.
.hc
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
On Dec 27, 2012, at 3:17 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 8:54 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
On Dec 26, 2012, at 3:27 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 2:05 PM Subject: [PD] more fun with translations
[...]
Is it possible to translate comments of the help patches in
5.reference in
a similar
manner?
Not currently, but that is something I think we can do. I guess the
trickiest
part is the file format. I suppose there could be a .po file per-language-per-patch. I'd rather see all the translations
embedded into
the patch.
Just made the search-plugin keywords translatable. There's a [_
"name"] for
the keyword, then a "keyword" which is not translated. Seems to
work fine.
But again, notice that this just kicks the ball down the field for the non-English-speaking user. Sure, they can get a list of included
"bandlimited"
objects, but they all have english descriptions, patches, and readmes (if
they
have them at all).
-Jonathan
Definitely true. But this is one step that needs to happen, so its definitely not wasted effort at all. Plus someone now can put [pd META] tags into their tutorials in whatever language, like Porres' portuguese tutorials, and they would be searchable.
Just to reiterate: all the symbols that come after "KEYWORDS" inside [pd META] must remain in English. If you translate those keywords you will be _extremely_ confused because a properly translated search homepage will display "translated_foo", and the [pd META] of the patch will have "KEYWORDS translated_foo", but the search-plugin will be searching under the hood for "foo" and you won't get results.
Upshot: if you want your Portuguese tutorial to work with the "Search by Category" links in the search-plugin, write the [pd META] "KEYWORDS" in English. This puts slightly more work on the developer for the benefit of users reading categories in their native language, and I think that's a fair trade-off. (Of course what would be ideal is for devs to write keywords in their native language, users to see them, and patch translation to just work, but it sounds like it's more complicated than that.)
-Jonathan
.hc
On 12/27/2012 04:39 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
On Dec 27, 2012, at 3:17 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 8:54 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
On Dec 26, 2012, at 3:27 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 2:05 PM Subject: [PD] more fun with translations
[...]
Is it possible to translate comments of the help patches in
5.reference in
a similar
manner?
Not currently, but that is something I think we can do. I guess the
trickiest
part is the file format. I suppose there could be a .po file per-language-per-patch. I'd rather see all the translations
embedded into
the patch.
Just made the search-plugin keywords translatable. There's a [_
"name"] for
the keyword, then a "keyword" which is not translated. Seems to
work fine.
But again, notice that this just kicks the ball down the field for the non-English-speaking user. Sure, they can get a list of included
"bandlimited"
objects, but they all have english descriptions, patches, and readmes (if
they
have them at all).
-Jonathan
Definitely true. But this is one step that needs to happen, so its definitely not wasted effort at all. Plus someone now can put [pd META] tags into their tutorials in whatever language, like Porres' portuguese tutorials, and they would be searchable.
Just to reiterate: all the symbols that come after "KEYWORDS" inside [pd META] must remain in English. If you translate those keywords you will be _extremely_ confused because a properly translated search homepage will display "translated_foo", and the [pd META] of the patch will have "KEYWORDS translated_foo", but the search-plugin will be searching under the hood for "foo" and you won't get results.
Upshot: if you want your Portuguese tutorial to work with the "Search by Category" links in the search-plugin, write the [pd META] "KEYWORDS" in English. This puts slightly more work on the developer for the benefit of users reading categories in their native language, and I think that's a fair trade-off. (Of course what would be ideal is for devs to write keywords in their native language, users to see them, and patch translation to just work, but it sounds like it's more complicated than that.)
I think its possible to have the keywords translatable, as long as the keywords are also in english. For example, if the translation is embedded in the patch:
#X text 23 51 DESCRIPTION ; #X text-po de BESCHREIBUNG ; #X text-po es DESCRIPCIÓN ;
So each 'text-po' line would apply to the previous 'text' line. That would make it possible to search based on english keyword, but also other languages.
.hc
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 12:52 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
On 12/27/2012 04:39 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
On Dec 27, 2012, at 3:17 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 8:54 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
On Dec 26, 2012, at 3:27 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message ----- > From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at > To: "pd-list@iem.at list"
> Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 2:05 PM > Subject: [PD] more fun with translations
[...]
Is it possible to translate comments of the help patches
in
5.reference in
a similar
manner?
Not currently, but that is something I think we can do. I
guess the
trickiest
part is the file format. I suppose there could be a .po file per-language-per-patch. I'd rather see all the
translations
embedded into
the patch.
Just made the search-plugin keywords translatable. There's a
[_
"name"] for
the keyword, then a "keyword" which is not translated.
Seems to
work fine.
But again, notice that this just kicks the ball down the field for
the
non-English-speaking user. Sure, they can get a list of included
"bandlimited"
objects, but they all have english descriptions, patches, and
readmes (if
they
have them at all).
-Jonathan
Definitely true. But this is one step that needs to happen, so its
definitely
not wasted effort at all. Plus someone now can put [pd META] tags into
their
tutorials in whatever language, like Porres' portuguese tutorials,
and they
would be searchable.
Just to reiterate: all the symbols that come after "KEYWORDS"
inside [pd META]
must remain in English. If you translate those keywords you will be
_extremely_
confused because a properly translated search homepage will display "translated_foo", and the [pd META] of the patch will have "KEYWORDS translated_foo", but the search-plugin will be
searching under the
hood for "foo" and you won't get results.
Upshot: if you want your Portuguese tutorial to work with the "Search
by Category"
links in the search-plugin, write the [pd META] "KEYWORDS" in
English. This puts
slightly more work on the developer for the benefit of users reading
categories in
their native language, and I think that's a fair trade-off. (Of course
what would be
ideal is for devs to write keywords in their native language, users to see
them, and
patch translation to just work, but it sounds like it's more
complicated than that.)
I think its possible to have the keywords translatable, as long as the keywords are also in english. For example, if the translation is embedded in the patch:
Nevertheless, for the time being, don't put KEYWORDS in anything but English if you want the search-plugin category search to work with them.
#X text 23 51 DESCRIPTION ; #X text-po de BESCHREIBUNG ; #X text-po es DESCRIPCIÓN ;
So each 'text-po' line would apply to the previous 'text' line. That would make it possible to search based on english keyword, but also other languages.
That might work. Can you make those changes to Pd so that it accepts text-po?
Also, I assume the translators will just edit the source code, so would there be a potential problem if they go past Pd's default limit for the line length before they make a linebreak?
-Jonathan
.hc
On 12/28/2012 01:08 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 12:52 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
On 12/27/2012 04:39 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
On Dec 27, 2012, at 3:17 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 8:54 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
On Dec 26, 2012, at 3:27 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at >> To: "pd-list@iem.at list"
>> Cc: >> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 2:05 PM >> Subject: [PD] more fun with translations
[...]
> Is it possible to translate comments of the help patches
in
5.reference in
a similar > manner?
Not currently, but that is something I think we can do. I
guess the
trickiest
part is the file format. I suppose there could be a .po file per-language-per-patch. I'd rather see all the
translations
embedded into
the patch.
Just made the search-plugin keywords translatable. There's a
[_
"name"] for
the keyword, then a "keyword" which is not translated.
Seems to
work fine.
But again, notice that this just kicks the ball down the field for
the
non-English-speaking user. Sure, they can get a list of included
"bandlimited"
objects, but they all have english descriptions, patches, and
readmes (if
they
have them at all).
-Jonathan
Definitely true. But this is one step that needs to happen, so its
definitely
not wasted effort at all. Plus someone now can put [pd META] tags into
their
tutorials in whatever language, like Porres' portuguese tutorials,
and they
would be searchable.
Just to reiterate: all the symbols that come after "KEYWORDS"
inside [pd META]
must remain in English. If you translate those keywords you will be
_extremely_
confused because a properly translated search homepage will display "translated_foo", and the [pd META] of the patch will have "KEYWORDS translated_foo", but the search-plugin will be
searching under the
hood for "foo" and you won't get results.
Upshot: if you want your Portuguese tutorial to work with the "Search
by Category"
links in the search-plugin, write the [pd META] "KEYWORDS" in
English. This puts
slightly more work on the developer for the benefit of users reading
categories in
their native language, and I think that's a fair trade-off. (Of course
what would be
ideal is for devs to write keywords in their native language, users to see
them, and
patch translation to just work, but it sounds like it's more
complicated than that.)
I think its possible to have the keywords translatable, as long as the keywords are also in english. For example, if the translation is embedded in the patch:
Nevertheless, for the time being, don't put KEYWORDS in anything but English if you want the search-plugin category search to work with them.
#X text 23 51 DESCRIPTION ; #X text-po de BESCHREIBUNG ; #X text-po es DESCRIPCIÓN ;
So each 'text-po' line would apply to the previous 'text' line.
That would make it possible to search based on english keyword, but also other languages.That might work. Can you make those changes to Pd so that it accepts text-po?
Also, I assume the translators will just edit the source code, so would there be a potential problem if they go past Pd's default limit for the line length before they make a linebreak?
No, the idea would be there would be an editor for them, so that the strings can be extracted and put up on transifex, and then downloaded and inserted into a patch file. That would be the method for bulk translation.
Making this part of the normal Pd editor would be harder. There would need to be a way for a patch to be marked with a locale, something like:
#X declare -locale fr_CA
Then that would make all 'text' items assumed to be fr_CA. Then there would need to be a way to change the visible locale. Seems tricky to do it right in the UI. That's why a compiled technique is appealing.
pob just suggested another route, which is sticking the locale in the file name, i.e bang-help.fr.pd
.hc
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
[...]
No, the idea would be there would be an editor for them, so that the strings can be extracted and put up on transifex, and then downloaded and inserted into a patch file. That would be the method for bulk translation.
Doesn't Transifex make Pd-Extended dependent and to some extent locked in to a commercial web service?
Making this part of the normal Pd editor would be harder. There would need to be a way for a patch to be marked with a locale, something like:
#X declare -locale fr_CA
Then that would make all 'text' items assumed to be fr_CA. Then there would need to be a way to change the visible locale. Seems tricky to do it right in the UI. That's why a compiled technique is appealing.
pob just suggested another route, which is sticking the locale in the file name, i.e bang-help.fr.pd
Hm, that is probably (and unfortunately) necessary because Pd patches cannot automatically adjust themselves vertically to make room if more lines of text are needed. So if you have a one-line comment in English that turns into two lines in French, your system of text_po will end up with overlapping text and thus illegible patches.
BTW-- matju's GF helpsystem _does_ adjust vertical space as needed. :)
-Jonathan
.hc
On 12/28/2012 04:22 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
[...]
No, the idea would be there would be an editor for them, so that the strings can be extracted and put up on transifex, and then downloaded and inserted into a patch file. That would be the method for bulk translation.
Doesn't Transifex make Pd-Extended dependent and to some extent locked in to a commercial web service?
Transifex is all free software, so someone could run their own transifex instance if they wanted to. Transifex is based on the standard GNU gettext tools, so its easy to stop using it at anytime, and just use the normal .po translation tools like poedit. It is a commercial service, but I have no problem with commerce. Since it is not proprietary service, I see it as a great free software tool to support our free software work.
Making this part of the normal Pd editor would be harder. There would need to be a way for a patch to be marked with a locale, something like:
#X declare -locale fr_CA
Then that would make all 'text' items assumed to be fr_CA. Then there would need to be a way to change the visible locale. Seems tricky to do it right in the UI. That's why a compiled technique is appealing.
pob just suggested another route, which is sticking the locale in the file name, i.e bang-help.fr.pd
Hm, that is probably (and unfortunately) necessary because Pd patches cannot automatically adjust themselves vertically to make room if more lines of text are needed. So if you have a one-line comment in English that turns into two lines in French, your system of text_po will end up with overlapping text and thus illegible patches.
BTW-- matju's GF helpsystem _does_ adjust vertical space as needed. :)
I think that automated text layout won't work well unless the layout engine can also move the patch stuff around. At that point you have a good 'tidy up' algorithm. So I think its possible to adjust the layout so it fits well enough for all langauges, then just save the file like that.
.hc
On 28/12/2012 23:00, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On 12/28/2012 04:22 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
[...]
No, the idea would be there would be an editor for them, so that the strings can be extracted and put up on transifex, and then downloaded and inserted into a patch file. That would be the method for bulk translation.
Doesn't Transifex make Pd-Extended dependent and to some extent locked in to a commercial web service?
Transifex is all free software, so someone could run their own transifex instance if they wanted to. Transifex is based on the standard GNU gettext tools, so its easy to stop using it at anytime, and just use the normal .po translation tools like poedit. It is a commercial service, but I have no problem with commerce. Since it is not proprietary service, I see it as a great free software tool to support our free software work.
Making this part of the normal Pd editor would be harder. There would need to be a way for a patch to be marked with a locale, something like:
#X declare -locale fr_CA
Then that would make all 'text' items assumed to be fr_CA. Then there would need to be a way to change the visible locale. Seems tricky to do it right in the UI. That's why a compiled technique is appealing.
pob just suggested another route, which is sticking the locale in the file name, i.e bang-help.fr.pd
Hm, that is probably (and unfortunately) necessary because Pd patches cannot automatically adjust themselves vertically to make room if more lines of text are needed. So if you have a one-line comment in English that turns into two lines in French, your system of text_po will end up with overlapping text and thus illegible patches.
BTW-- matju's GF helpsystem _does_ adjust vertical space as needed. :)
I think that automated text layout won't work well unless the layout engine can also move the patch stuff around. At that point you have a good 'tidy up' algorithm. So I think its possible to adjust the layout so it fits well enough for all langauges, then just save the file like that.
.hc
Are you planning an exception for Arabic and Hebrew? :) I suppose that Japanese and Chinese on computers is written in the Latin order, left to right and then top to bottom. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/direction.htm
pob
On 12/28/2012 05:21 PM, Pierre-Olivier Boulant wrote:
On 28/12/2012 23:00, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On 12/28/2012 04:22 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
[...]
No, the idea would be there would be an editor for them, so that the strings can be extracted and put up on transifex, and then downloaded and inserted into a patch file. That would be the method for bulk translation.
Doesn't Transifex make Pd-Extended dependent and to some extent locked in to a commercial web service?
Transifex is all free software, so someone could run their own transifex instance if they wanted to. Transifex is based on the standard GNU gettext tools, so its easy to stop using it at anytime, and just use the normal .po translation tools like poedit. It is a commercial service, but I have no problem with commerce. Since it is not proprietary service, I see it as a great free software tool to support our free software work.
Making this part of the normal Pd editor would be harder. There would need to be a way for a patch to be marked with a locale, something like:
#X declare -locale fr_CA
Then that would make all 'text' items assumed to be fr_CA. Then there would need to be a way to change the visible locale. Seems tricky to do it right in the UI. That's why a compiled technique is appealing.
pob just suggested another route, which is sticking the locale in the file name, i.e bang-help.fr.pd
Hm, that is probably (and unfortunately) necessary because Pd patches cannot automatically adjust themselves vertically to make room if more lines of text are needed. So if you have a one-line comment in English that turns into two lines in French, your system of text_po will end up with overlapping text and thus illegible patches.
BTW-- matju's GF helpsystem _does_ adjust vertical space as needed. :)
I think that automated text layout won't work well unless the layout engine can also move the patch stuff around. At that point you have a good 'tidy up' algorithm. So I think its possible to adjust the layout so it fits well enough for all langauges, then just save the file like that.
.hc
Are you planning an exception for Arabic and Hebrew? :) I suppose that Japanese and Chinese on computers is written in the Latin order, left to right and then top to bottom. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/direction.htm
What exception would be needed for Right-to-Left languages? They are still blocks of text with roughly the same line breaking rules, with the biggest difference in layout being that its right-justified instead of left justified.
.hc
On 28/12/2012 23:42, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On 12/28/2012 05:21 PM, Pierre-Olivier Boulant wrote:
On 28/12/2012 23:00, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On 12/28/2012 04:22 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
[...]
No, the idea would be there would be an editor for them, so that the strings can be extracted and put up on transifex, and then downloaded and inserted into a patch file. That would be the method for bulk translation.
Doesn't Transifex make Pd-Extended dependent and to some extent locked in to a commercial web service?
Transifex is all free software, so someone could run their own transifex instance if they wanted to. Transifex is based on the standard GNU gettext tools, so its easy to stop using it at anytime, and just use the normal .po translation tools like poedit. It is a commercial service, but I have no problem with commerce. Since it is not proprietary service, I see it as a great free software tool to support our free software work.
Making this part of the normal Pd editor would be harder. There would need to be a way for a patch to be marked with a locale, something like:
#X declare -locale fr_CA
Then that would make all 'text' items assumed to be fr_CA. Then there would need to be a way to change the visible locale. Seems tricky to do it right in the UI. That's why a compiled technique is appealing.
pob just suggested another route, which is sticking the locale in the file name, i.e bang-help.fr.pd
Hm, that is probably (and unfortunately) necessary because Pd patches cannot automatically adjust themselves vertically to make room if more lines of text are needed. So if you have a one-line comment in English that turns into two lines in French, your system of text_po will end up with overlapping text and thus illegible patches.
BTW-- matju's GF helpsystem _does_ adjust vertical space as needed. :)
I think that automated text layout won't work well unless the layout engine can also move the patch stuff around. At that point you have a good 'tidy up' algorithm. So I think its possible to adjust the layout so it fits well enough for all langauges, then just save the file like that.
.hc
Are you planning an exception for Arabic and Hebrew? :) I suppose that Japanese and Chinese on computers is written in the Latin order, left to right and then top to bottom. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/direction.htm
What exception would be needed for Right-to-Left languages? They are still blocks of text with roughly the same line breaking rules, with the biggest difference in layout being that its right-justified instead of left justified.
.hc
Some help patches are on two columns, [trigger]'s one for instance.
pob
----- Original Message -----
From: Pierre-Olivier Boulant po.boulant@free.fr To: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
[...]
Some help patches are on two columns, [trigger]'s one for instance.
To be fair, that wouldn't matter as you could just use another comment for the next column. But you still have to guess where they will end on whatever system gives the most space between lines, and there are plenty of help patches where the author guessed wrong.
-Jonathan
pob
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
On 12/28/2012 04:22 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
[...]
No, the idea would be there would be an editor for them, so that the
strings
can be extracted and put up on transifex, and then downloaded and
inserted
into a patch file. That would be the method for bulk translation.
Doesn't Transifex make Pd-Extended dependent and to some extent locked
in
to a commercial web service?
Transifex is all free software, so someone could run their own transifex instance if they wanted to. Transifex is based on the standard GNU gettext tools, so its easy to stop using it at anytime, and just use the normal .po translation tools like poedit. It is a commercial service, but I have no problem with commerce. Since it is not proprietary service, I see it as a great free software tool to support our free software work.
Oh ok, I seem to have misunderstood what it was.
BTW-- matju's GF helpsystem _does_ adjust vertical space as needed. :)
I think that automated text layout won't work well unless the layout engine can also move the patch stuff around.
I don't understand what this means. The GF abstractions get their x,y coordinates adjusted as needed to provide enough vertical space for everything.
-Jonathan
On 12/28/2012 05:43 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
On 12/28/2012 04:22 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
[...]
No, the idea would be there would be an editor for them, so that the
strings
can be extracted and put up on transifex, and then downloaded and
inserted
into a patch file. That would be the method for bulk translation.
Doesn't Transifex make Pd-Extended dependent and to some extent locked
in
to a commercial web service?
Transifex is all free software, so someone could run their own transifex instance if they wanted to. Transifex is based on the standard GNU gettext tools, so its easy to stop using it at anytime, and just use the normal .po translation tools like poedit. It is a commercial service, but I have no problem with commerce. Since it is not proprietary service, I see it as a great free software tool to support our free software work.
Oh ok, I seem to have misunderstood what it was.
BTW-- matju's GF helpsystem _does_ adjust vertical space as needed. :)
I think that automated text layout won't work well unless the layout engine can also move the patch stuff around.
I don't understand what this means. The GF abstractions get their x,y coordinates adjusted as needed to provide enough vertical space for everything.
-Jonathan
I meant that either the help patch would need to be laid out so that the auto-layout would not make the text overlap the example patch part, or the auto-layout would have to be aware of the patch part.
Another solution would be to have a text/comment field that saves carriage returns and paragraph breaks. Then a whole column of text could be in a single object, and then there would just need to be room at the bottom to accomodate different lengths of texts, depending on the language.
.hc
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
On 12/28/2012 05:43 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
On 12/28/2012 04:22 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "pd-list@iem.at list" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [PD] more fun with translations
[...]
No, the idea would be there would be an editor for them, so
that the
strings
can be extracted and put up on transifex, and then downloaded
and
inserted
into a patch file. That would be the method for bulk
translation.
Doesn't Transifex make Pd-Extended dependent and to some
extent locked
in
to a commercial web service?
Transifex is all free software, so someone could run their own
transifex
instance if they wanted to. Transifex is based on the standard GNU
gettext
tools, so its easy to stop using it at anytime, and just use the normal
.po
translation tools like poedit. It is a commercial service, but I have
no
problem with commerce. Since it is not proprietary service, I see it
as a
great free software tool to support our free software work.
Oh ok, I seem to have misunderstood what it was.
BTW-- matju's GF helpsystem _does_ adjust vertical space as
needed. :)
I think that automated text layout won't work well unless the
layout engine
can also move the patch stuff around.
I don't understand what this means. The GF abstractions get their x,y
coordinates
adjusted as needed to provide enough vertical space for everything.
-Jonathan
I meant that either the help patch would need to be laid out so that the auto-layout would not make the text overlap the example patch part, or the auto-layout would have to be aware of the patch part.
None of the GF help patches have collisions between the example patch and text. I'm not sure if it's automatic or if you have to click drag the first text-heading below the patch, but either way it behaves and there are no collisions in any of matju's docs that I've seen:
Another solution would be to have a text/comment field that saves carriage returns and paragraph breaks. Then a whole column of text could be in a single object, and then there would just need to be room at the bottom to accomodate different lengths of texts, depending on the language.
You can't criticize GF automated help patches for requiring the user to do a single click-drag to pull the first heading below the example patch (if they indeed do require that-- I'll have to check), and then favor a system that not only requires the author to click drag to increase patch height but also guess how much extra room they must leave for other systems they don't use where the vertical space between lines may be slightly larger than the system they are using.
AFAICT, GF help patches measure the actual space used by the comments so that even if you save a patch on system X, when someone opens it on system Y it will shift comments down if they need extra space in order to avoid overlapping.
-Jonathan
.hc
-
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
Jonathan Wilkes -
Pierre-Olivier Boulant -
Seiichiro MATSUMURA