Hi all,
I'm back on my Mini-ITX research, hoping to use one for an upcoming PD installation as well as a live performance box. But what I'm missing is some kind of comparison of price vs functionality here. As well as some overview of which CPUs and chipsets are good for audio and Linux and which ones are not. Can anyone make a recommendation for a Mini-ITX system with a good processor which has proven usable for fairly complex PD patching with Linux, or point in the direction of a good online resource for this kind of info?
thx + best! d.
Hi Derek -
One quick hint that I've found in working on the audiopint project
(audiopint.org) is that the audio chipsets on mini-itx boards do not
tend to be very high quality - specifically, they are noisy - you can
hear memory access, and other capacitive coupling from traces on the
motherboard. So I always use a iMic USB audio interface when I build
up an audiopint - any good-rated USB audio interface that's linux-
compatible should do, since it will isolate the motherboard noise
from your analog signals.
-David M.
On Feb 27, 2008, at 10:12 AM, Derek Holzer wrote:
Hi all,
I'm back on my Mini-ITX research, hoping to use one for an upcoming PD installation as well as a live performance box. But what I'm
missing is some kind of comparison of price vs functionality here. As well as
some overview of which CPUs and chipsets are good for audio and Linux and which ones are not. Can anyone make a recommendation for a Mini-ITX system with a good processor which has proven usable for fairly
complex PD patching with Linux, or point in the direction of a good online resource for this kind of info?thx + best! d.
-- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/ macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 85: "Humanize something free of error"
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
-- MIT Media Lab dmerrill@media.mit.edu http://web.media.mit.edu/~dmerrill/
Hi David,
and thanks. I'm planning to use an MAudio Delta66 or similar breakout box, actually. I need multichannel!
The main thing I'm curious about is whether a new mobo has come out since 2004 that is better for the money than the EPIA MII 12000G 1.2Ghz. All the docs about Linux + audio + Mini-ITX are at least three years old!
best, d.
David Merrill wrote:
Hi Derek - One quick hint that I've found in working on the audiopint project (audiopint.org) is that the audio chipsets on mini-itx boards do not tend to be very high quality - specifically, they are noisy - you can hear memory access, and other capacitive coupling from traces on the motherboard. So I always use a iMic USB audio interface when I build up an audiopint - any good-rated USB audio interface that's linux-compatible should do, since it will isolate the motherboard noise from your analog signals. -David M.
On Feb 27, 2008, at 10:12 AM, Derek Holzer wrote:
Hi all,
I'm back on my Mini-ITX research, hoping to use one for an upcoming PD installation as well as a live performance box. But what I'm missing is some kind of comparison of price vs functionality here. As well as some overview of which CPUs and chipsets are good for audio and Linux and which ones are not. Can anyone make a recommendation for a Mini-ITX system with a good processor which has proven usable for fairly complex PD patching with Linux, or point in the direction of a good online resource for this kind of info?
thx + best! d.
-- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 85: "Humanize something free of error"
PD-list@iem.at mailto:PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- MIT Media Lab dmerrill@media.mit.edu mailto:dmerrill@media.mit.edu http://web.media.mit.edu/~dmerrill/
I don't know the current lineup of VIA boards at the moment, so I
can't comment on which ones have good price/performance ratio. Note
that it is possible to get cheaper multi-channel with multiple USB
soundcards, if you are very cost-conscious. We have done this with up
to 4 iMic units, getting 8-in, 8-out for ~120USD.
cheers,
-David
On Feb 27, 2008, at 11:02 AM, Derek Holzer wrote:
Hi David,
and thanks. I'm planning to use an MAudio Delta66 or similar
breakout box, actually. I need multichannel!The main thing I'm curious about is whether a new mobo has come out
since 2004 that is better for the money than the EPIA MII 12000G
1.2Ghz. All the docs about Linux + audio + Mini-ITX are at least
three years old!best, d.
David Merrill wrote:
Hi Derek - One quick hint that I've found in working on the audiopint project
(audiopint.org) is that the audio chipsets on mini-itx boards do
not tend to be very high quality - specifically, they are noisy -
you can hear memory access, and other capacitive coupling from
traces on the motherboard. So I always use a iMic USB audio
interface when I build up an audiopint - any good-rated USB audio
interface that's linux-compatible should do, since it will isolate
the motherboard noise from your analog signals. -David M. On Feb 27, 2008, at 10:12 AM, Derek Holzer wrote:Hi all,
I'm back on my Mini-ITX research, hoping to use one for an
upcoming PD installation as well as a live performance box. But
what I'm missing is some kind of comparison of price vs
functionality here. As well as some overview of which CPUs and
chipsets are good for audio and Linux and which ones are not. Can
anyone make a recommendation for a Mini-ITX system with a good
processor which has proven usable for fairly complex PD patching
with Linux, or point in the direction of a good online resource
for this kind of info?thx + best! d.
-- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/ macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 85: "Humanize something free of error"
PD-list@iem.at mailto:PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
-- MIT Media Lab dmerrill@media.mit.edu mailto:dmerrill@media.mit.edu http://web.media.mit.edu/~dmerrill/
-- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/ macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 153: "The inconsistency principle"
-- MIT Media Lab dmerrill@media.mit.edu http://web.media.mit.edu/~dmerrill/
@ David:
a Delta is approx EUR 160, not too much more than 4 iMics over here.
Would you recommend the EPIA EN 15000G C7 over the EPIA MII 12000G 1.2Ghz? Or maybe the EPIA EN 12000G Fanless C7 if I want to go fanless with the same CPU speed? How loud is the fan on the EN board you used in the Audiopint? And most important, how much PD can you squeeze out of it?
@ Olme:
thanks for the suggestion, but 500 MHz is waaaaaayyyyyyy too slow ;-)
thx + best! d.
Hi Derek -
The fan is pretty quiet, so I wouldn't worry about fan noise in your
equation.. With respect to which EPIA board - I have been happy with
the performance of all of the ones I've used, but I wasn't doing
particularly compute-heavy operations most of the time. For instance,
I have a voice recorder/sampler/looper application that serves 4
people at the same time from a single EPIA board, and has no trouble
(on either the 1.5Ghz board, the 1.2, or a 1.0) - but when I tried to
run two instances of PD that were each doing multiple partitioned
convolutions (I think 8 partconv~ objects in each patch) it started
to have trouble on the 1.0 board. In general, linux and PD run well
on the VIA boards. If you want to do any graphics though, you will
absolutely need to install the VIA-specific graphics drivers,
otherwise it runs really clunky. Actually, for whatever you're doing,
using the VIA drivers is probably a good idea, to get the maximum HW
utilization.
-David
On Feb 27, 2008, at 11:20 AM, Derek Holzer wrote:
@ David:
a Delta is approx EUR 160, not too much more than 4 iMics over here.
Would you recommend the EPIA EN 15000G C7 over the EPIA MII 12000G 1.2Ghz? Or maybe the EPIA EN 12000G Fanless C7 if I want to go fanless with the same CPU speed? How loud is the fan on the EN board you
used in the Audiopint? And most important, how much PD can you squeeze out
of it?@ Olme:
thanks for the suggestion, but 500 MHz is waaaaaayyyyyyy too slow ;-)
thx + best! d.
-- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/ macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 130: "Question the heroic"
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
-- MIT Media Lab dmerrill@media.mit.edu http://web.media.mit.edu/~dmerrill/
Thanks again David, I knew you were a goldmine of info on this! Will report back when I make the move.
best, d.
David Merrill wrote:
Hi Derek - The fan is pretty quiet, so I wouldn't worry about fan noise in your equation.. With respect to which EPIA board - I have been happy with the performance of all of the ones I've used, but I wasn't doing particularly compute-heavy operations most of the time. For instance, I have a voice recorder/sampler/looper application that serves 4 people at the same time from a single EPIA board, and has no trouble (on either the 1.5Ghz board, the 1.2, or a 1.0) - but when I tried to run two instances of PD that were each doing multiple partitioned convolutions (I think 8 partconv~ objects in each patch) it started to have trouble on the 1.0 board. In general, linux and PD run well on the VIA boards. If you want to do any graphics though, you will absolutely need to install the VIA-specific graphics drivers, otherwise it runs really clunky. Actually, for whatever you're doing, using the VIA drivers is probably a good idea, to get the maximum HW utilization. -David
On Feb 27, 2008, at 11:20 AM, Derek Holzer wrote:
@ David:
a Delta is approx EUR 160, not too much more than 4 iMics over here.
Would you recommend the EPIA EN 15000G C7 over the EPIA MII 12000G 1.2Ghz? Or maybe the EPIA EN 12000G Fanless C7 if I want to go fanless with the same CPU speed? How loud is the fan on the EN board you used in the Audiopint? And most important, how much PD can you squeeze out of it?
@ Olme:
thanks for the suggestion, but 500 MHz is waaaaaayyyyyyy too slow ;-)
thx + best! d.
-- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 130: "Question the heroic"
PD-list@iem.at mailto:PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- MIT Media Lab dmerrill@media.mit.edu mailto:dmerrill@media.mit.edu http://web.media.mit.edu/~dmerrill/
I just built a Debian box from a EN15000 and have since found how
that it has freezing issues related to the IDE and USB drives. There
are some acknowledged issues, I think my freezes are related, but
basically, if I have a IDE CDROM and/or USB disk hooked up, it'll
lock up after about a day. If I only have the SATA disks attached,
then no freezes...
Other than that, it was easy to get all of the hardware working with
Linux.
.hc
On Feb 27, 2008, at 5:20 PM, Derek Holzer wrote:
@ David:
a Delta is approx EUR 160, not too much more than 4 iMics over here.
Would you recommend the EPIA EN 15000G C7 over the EPIA MII 12000G 1.2Ghz? Or maybe the EPIA EN 12000G Fanless C7 if I want to go fanless with the same CPU speed? How loud is the fan on the EN board you
used in the Audiopint? And most important, how much PD can you squeeze out
of it?@ Olme:
thanks for the suggestion, but 500 MHz is waaaaaayyyyyyy too slow ;-)
thx + best! d.
-- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/ macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 130: "Question the heroic"
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of
exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an
idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps
it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into
the possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess
himself of it. - Thomas Jefferson
Hi HC,
did you notice much computer noise on the soundcard, as Ingo reported with the VIA chipsets?
d.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I just built a Debian box from a EN15000 and have since found how that it has freezing issues related to the IDE and USB drives. There are some acknowledged issues, I think my freezes are related, but basically, if I have a IDE CDROM and/or USB disk hooked up, it'll lock up after about a day. If I only have the SATA disks attached, then no freezes...
I haven't actually used the soundcard yet, first I got to fix these
damn crashes. arg
.hc
On Feb 28, 2008, at 4:06 PM, Derek Holzer wrote:
Hi HC,
did you notice much computer noise on the soundcard, as Ingo
reported with the VIA chipsets?d.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I just built a Debian box from a EN15000 and have since found how
that it has freezing issues related to the IDE and USB drives.
There are some acknowledged issues, I think my freezes are
related, but basically, if I have a IDE CDROM and/or USB disk
hooked up, it'll lock up after about a day. If I only have the
SATA disks attached, then no freezes...-- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/ macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 49: "Display your talent"
Terrorism is not an enemy. It cannot be defeated. It's a tactic.
It's about as sensible to say we declare war on night attacks and
expect we're going to win that war. We're not going to win the war
on terrorism. - retired U.S. Army general, William Odom
I have installed Ubuntu on an EPIA LN10000EG. The sound card output is outrageously noisy, on the scope there's a waveform at about 2MHz which is much louder than the actual audio, but it's mostly filtered out by the subsequent hardware (audio amp) leaving a residual hiss. It sounds noisier than an ordinary soundblaster card. I'm using an M-audio Delta 1010 on the PCI slot, which works really well since the audio unit is a long way from the computer. The board also has an spdif output, which would naturally be noise-free.
Martin
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I haven't actually used the soundcard yet, first I got to fix these
damn crashes. arg.hc
On Feb 28, 2008, at 4:06 PM, Derek Holzer wrote:
Hi HC,
did you notice much computer noise on the soundcard, as Ingo
reported with the VIA chipsets?d.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I just built a Debian box from a EN15000 and have since found how
that it has freezing issues related to the IDE and USB drives.
There are some acknowledged issues, I think my freezes are
related, but basically, if I have a IDE CDROM and/or USB disk
hooked up, it'll lock up after about a day. If I only have the
SATA disks attached, then no freezes...-- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/ macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 49: "Display your talent"
Terrorism is not an enemy. It cannot be defeated. It's a tactic.
It's about as sensible to say we declare war on night attacks and
expect we're going to win that war. We're not going to win the war
on terrorism. - retired U.S. Army general, William Odom
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Hi Martin,
thanks for the heads up. Does the SPDIF output work fine under Ubuntu? How many channels is it good for?
And on that tip...recommendations for a 4 or 8 channel DAC+ADC that isn't the size of a telephone book?
Last quiz question: how noisy is the fan on that sucker?
best! d.
Martin Peach wrote:
I have installed Ubuntu on an EPIA LN10000EG. The sound card output is outrageously noisy, on the scope there's a waveform at about 2MHz which is much louder than the actual audio, but it's mostly filtered out by the subsequent hardware (audio amp) leaving a residual hiss. It sounds noisier than an ordinary soundblaster card. I'm using an M-audio Delta 1010 on the PCI slot, which works really well since the audio unit is a long way from the computer. The board also has an spdif output, which would naturally be noise-free.
Martin
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I haven't actually used the soundcard yet, first I got to fix these
damn crashes. arg.hc
On Feb 28, 2008, at 4:06 PM, Derek Holzer wrote:
Hi HC,
did you notice much computer noise on the soundcard, as Ingo
reported with the VIA chipsets?d.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I just built a Debian box from a EN15000 and have since found how
that it has freezing issues related to the IDE and USB drives.
There are some acknowledged issues, I think my freezes are related, but basically, if I have a IDE CDROM and/or USB disk hooked up, it'll lock up after about a day. If I only have the SATA disks attached, then no freezes...-- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/ macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 49: "Display your talent"
Terrorism is not an enemy. It cannot be defeated. It's a tactic.
It's about as sensible to say we declare war on night attacks and
expect we're going to win that war. We're not going to win the war
on terrorism. - retired U.S. Army general, William Odom
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Derek Holzer wrote:
Hi Martin,
thanks for the heads up. Does the SPDIF output work fine under Ubuntu? How many channels is it good for?
I imagine it carries a copy of the two-channel audio out, but I haven't tried it yet. The audio is supposed to be switchable to 5.1 but that seems to be only available on Windows (the driver CD only has Windows files on it).
And on that tip...recommendations for a 4 or 8 channel DAC+ADC that isn't the size of a telephone book?
Well the Hammerfall MultifaceII is 1/2 rackmount, you need either the PCI or PCMCIA card as well. It's well supported in linux but it's expensive. The M-audio Delta 66 might be good, the audio interface is smaller than the Multiface and has 4 ins and 4 outs. It's probably the same hardware as the delta 1010 but with less I/O, so it should work fine.
Last quiz question: how noisy is the fan on that sucker?
It's a fanless board at the cost of running at 1GHz instead of 1.5. There's a small fan in the case that's about as loud as the hard drive. Probably you won't need it if the box is well ventilated. It would be nice to run everything from a compact flash card but there's the problem of logging -- right now I'm getting disk accesses every ten seconds or so, which would wear out the card. Maybe logging to a small expendable CF card while running off a larger one would work, or logging to another machine.
Martin
best! d.
Martin Peach wrote:
I have installed Ubuntu on an EPIA LN10000EG. The sound card output is outrageously noisy, on the scope there's a waveform at about 2MHz which is much louder than the actual audio, but it's mostly filtered out by the subsequent hardware (audio amp) leaving a residual hiss. It sounds noisier than an ordinary soundblaster card. I'm using an M-audio Delta 1010 on the PCI slot, which works really well since the audio unit is a long way from the computer. The board also has an spdif output, which would naturally be noise-free.
Martin
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I haven't actually used the soundcard yet, first I got to fix these
damn crashes. arg.hc
On Feb 28, 2008, at 4:06 PM, Derek Holzer wrote:
Hi HC,
did you notice much computer noise on the soundcard, as Ingo
reported with the VIA chipsets?d.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I just built a Debian box from a EN15000 and have since found how
that it has freezing issues related to the IDE and USB drives.
There are some acknowledged issues, I think my freezes are
related, but basically, if I have a IDE CDROM and/or USB disk
hooked up, it'll lock up after about a day. If I only have the
SATA disks attached, then no freezes...-- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/ macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 49: "Display your talent"
Terrorism is not an enemy. It cannot be defeated. It's a tactic.
It's about as sensible to say we declare war on night attacks and
expect we're going to win that war. We're not going to win the war
on terrorism. - retired U.S. Army general, William Odom
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Hi Martin,
only stereo out for the SPDIF without proprietary stuff isn't too good. But this is a totally normal problem. I haven't touched the 5.1+SPDIF soundcard in my ShuttleX once since I bought it!
In regards to my question about the DAC+ADC, what I was asking about is only the converters, which I could plug into the SPDIF, rather than a complete soundcard. I use the RME Multiface every day for my own work, and the Delta 66 is the first on my list for a cheap multichannel card, so I am familiar with both already. But if the Mini-ITX has a digital out already, and a standalone DAC/ADC unit is available, I would investigate that.
The logging issue has been discussed here before. The solution is simply to mount /var on a RAMdisk or similar, espc if the unit isn't online (as a dedicated installation or sound performance unit might not be) and if you think you've worked out all the hardware bugs (as HC is still doing...heh heh) The AudioPint docs mention this as well.
best! d.
Martin Peach wrote:
Derek Holzer wrote:
Hi Martin,
thanks for the heads up. Does the SPDIF output work fine under Ubuntu? How many channels is it good for?
I imagine it carries a copy of the two-channel audio out, but I haven't tried it yet. The audio is supposed to be switchable to 5.1 but that seems to be only available on Windows (the driver CD only has Windows files on it).
And on that tip...recommendations for a 4 or 8 channel DAC+ADC that isn't the size of a telephone book?
Well the Hammerfall MultifaceII is 1/2 rackmount, you need either the PCI or PCMCIA card as well. It's well supported in linux but it's expensive. The M-audio Delta 66 might be good, the audio interface is smaller than the Multiface and has 4 ins and 4 outs. It's probably the same hardware as the delta 1010 but with less I/O, so it should work fine.
Last quiz question: how noisy is the fan on that sucker?
It's a fanless board at the cost of running at 1GHz instead of 1.5. There's a small fan in the case that's about as loud as the hard drive. Probably you won't need it if the box is well ventilated. It would be nice to run everything from a compact flash card but there's the problem of logging -- right now I'm getting disk accesses every ten seconds or so, which would wear out the card. Maybe logging to a small expendable CF card while running off a larger one would work, or logging to another machine.
Martin
Derek Holzer wrote:
Hi Martin,
only stereo out for the SPDIF without proprietary stuff isn't too good. But this is a totally normal problem. I haven't touched the 5.1+SPDIF soundcard in my ShuttleX once since I bought it!
Yes, and all those soundblasters are supposed to be 5.1 but I never figured out how that happens, still less how to send more than 2 channels to them from pd.
In regards to my question about the DAC+ADC, what I was asking about is only the converters, which I could plug into the SPDIF, rather than a complete soundcard. I use the RME Multiface every day for my own work, and the Delta 66 is the first on my list for a cheap multichannel card, so I am familiar with both already. But if the Mini-ITX has a digital out already, and a standalone DAC/ADC unit is available, I would investigate that.
AFAIK you can only get 2 channels with SPDIF, there is a 4 channel mode but who knows if anyone uses it... Unfortunately the board has no SPDIF input, so ADC is ruled out. There are some varieties of Mini-ITX with IEEE1394, maybe that would be better if there is any firewire hardware that works with linux.
The logging issue has been discussed here before. The solution is simply to mount /var on a RAMdisk or similar, espc if the unit isn't online (as a dedicated installation or sound performance unit might not be) and if you think you've worked out all the hardware bugs (as HC is still doing...heh heh) The AudioPint docs mention this as well.
Thanks for pointing this out, I'll give it a go.
Martin
best! d.
Martin Peach wrote:
Derek Holzer wrote:
Hi Martin,
thanks for the heads up. Does the SPDIF output work fine under Ubuntu? How many channels is it good for?
I imagine it carries a copy of the two-channel audio out, but I haven't tried it yet. The audio is supposed to be switchable to 5.1 but that seems to be only available on Windows (the driver CD only has Windows files on it).
And on that tip...recommendations for a 4 or 8 channel DAC+ADC that isn't the size of a telephone book?
Well the Hammerfall MultifaceII is 1/2 rackmount, you need either the PCI or PCMCIA card as well. It's well supported in linux but it's expensive. The M-audio Delta 66 might be good, the audio interface is smaller than the Multiface and has 4 ins and 4 outs. It's probably the same hardware as the delta 1010 but with less I/O, so it should work fine.
Last quiz question: how noisy is the fan on that sucker?
It's a fanless board at the cost of running at 1GHz instead of 1.5. There's a small fan in the case that's about as loud as the hard drive. Probably you won't need it if the box is well ventilated. It would be nice to run everything from a compact flash card but there's the problem of logging -- right now I'm getting disk accesses every ten seconds or so, which would wear out the card. Maybe logging to a small expendable CF card while running off a larger one would work, or logging to another machine.
Martin
Hi,
Sorry to return to M/Bs, anyone try the ones by Intel? I was imagining this may have compatibility issues as it is all Intel.
http://www.intel.com/products/motherboard/D201GLY/index.htm
-- David Shimamoto
oops,
sorry for the post earlier. My mailer failed to sort the trees properly :(
-- David Shimamoto
-
David Merrill -
Derek Holzer -
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
Martin Peach -
PSPunch