and how many years work would it take to do that in pd data structures?
On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 5:04 PM, Chris McCormick chris@mccormick.cx wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71hNl_skTZQ
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There is a fairly long-standing tradition of graphic scores made, post-copmosition, of electronic music - standard practice in Electroacoustic tuition for example.
Yet there still isn't much around that makes the auditory/visual connection explicit (Xenakis' UPIC and its derivatives being one of the classic examples).
For those interested in notational aspects and approaches within electronic music just the idea itself of data structures is hugely stimulating - you could even go so far to state that it's somewhat of a 'holy grail'.
I'm interested in data structures precisely because they don't work so well
- it's a worthwhile problem. The now well-worn, almost clichéd story that
DS's were one of the major original impetuses for Pd's existence, and 20 years later they're still a work in progress, I think shows that this shit ain't easy.
Hans' DS composition from a few years back has travelled far and wide (it's in one of the classic recent books on graphic scores - on the front cover even!) so it's a shame that there's not much else to show for them in recent years.
Ligeti rocks btw, proper hardcore.
Regards,
Julian
On 4 December 2014 at 09:10, i go bananas hard.off@gmail.com wrote:
and how many years work would it take to do that in pd data structures?
On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 5:04 PM, Chris McCormick chris@mccormick.cx wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71hNl_skTZQ
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Data structure usability and the difficulty of realizing electronic/interactive scores are two separate issues. In general, data structures aren't widely used for four reasons:* you can't draw lines to/from scalars and make them part of the Pd diagram. Instead, the user must keep track of them in singly-linked lists and even know to some extent what linked lists are. Just to do the equivalent of drawing a line between two scalars one must write a cumbersome subpatch to traverse a linked list and pass around gpointers.* there's no data type associated with signal data, and there's no bridge for [tabread] and friends to read/write array data inside a scalar
- the drawing commands and events are too crude and inefficient to create usable widgets or complex scores* it's clunky even to create a scalar in the first place
All of those are fairly low level weaknesses, and all of the electronic scores done in Pd with data structures look the way they do because of those limitations. Essentially data structures are missing functionality (some of which even exists already in tk, like the ability to draw an oval). So I don't think Pd's data structures are a good example of the conceptual difficulty of visualizing electronic music. -Jonathan
One nice thing about the unix philosophy from a cretive person's point of view is that you do not necessarily have to use one, monolithic tool (software) to do everything. IMHO this leaves much more space to expreimentation, trial, unorthodox ways of doing things, eventually less standardised and less canned creations.
This may sound a bit provocative.. but, do we really need to do 'everything' in Pd? For example for realtime scores this is rather interesting (and I must say quite appealing visually):
www.iannix.org
It uses OSC, which Pd supports (not sure what the 'out-of-the-box' vanilla support status is.. anyway).
For a piano + electronics (a.k.a. 'tape') piece I once used Inkscape for an expressive representation of the electronic part matched to the piano part in traditional notation... I was using qjackctrl always on top to play the piece and keep track of the bars, and had to hack the SVG to import the Lilipond score :-)
Bottom line. The best IMHO is that Pd is very interoperable at various levels, so JACK audio, midi, OSC, FUDI, TCP, [your favouritestandard here].
Then obviously this doesn't _exclude_ the fact that (usable) data structures are nice :-)
My two cents. Lorenzo.
On 04/12/2014 10:35, Julian Brooks wrote:
There is a fairly long-standing tradition of graphic scores made, post-copmosition, of electronic music - standard practice in Electroacoustic tuition for example.
Yet there still isn't much around that makes the auditory/visual connection explicit (Xenakis' UPIC and its derivatives being one of the classic examples).
For those interested in notational aspects and approaches within electronic music just the idea itself of data structures is hugely stimulating - you could even go so far to state that it's somewhat of a 'holy grail'.
I'm interested in data structures precisely because they don't work so well - it's a worthwhile problem. The now well-worn, almost clichéd story that DS's were one of the major original impetuses for Pd's existence, and 20 years later they're still a work in progress, I think shows that this shit ain't easy.
Hans' DS composition from a few years back has travelled far and wide (it's in one of the classic recent books on graphic scores - on the front cover even!) so it's a shame that there's not much else to show for them in recent years.
Ligeti rocks btw, proper hardcore.
Regards,
Julian
On 4 December 2014 at 09:10, i go bananas <hard.off@gmail.com mailto:hard.off@gmail.com> wrote:
and how many years work would it take to do that in pd data structures? On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 5:04 PM, Chris McCormick <chris@mccormick.cx <mailto:chris@mccormick.cx>> wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71hNl_skTZQ -- http://mccormick.cx/ _______________________________________________ Pd-list@lists.iem.at <mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at> mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list _______________________________________________ Pd-list@lists.iem.at <mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at> mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
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if there would be a realization score to accompany the piece like in
Stockhausen's Kontakte, maybe not so much time.
and how many years work would it take to do that in pd data structures?
On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 5:04 PM, Chris McCormick chris@mccormick.cx
wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71hNl_skTZQ
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