Thanks for your reply Ben.
I don't know whether you're familiar with Macromedia Director, but it allows you to create fairly self-contained audio visual pieces that can be distributed as windows ".exe" applications on CDROM.
These can either be launched from CD, or copied to hard disk and run with minimal hassle. I think Director uses Microsoft's DirectSound component of DirectX, although the functionality is very restricted - you can just about play multiple audio samples and vary their pitch, volume and pan, but that's about it. No synthesis or DSP (unless using proprietary plugins, no doubt).
I'm looking to move onto something more powerful, whilst retaining the ability to create and distribute something on CD that is hassle free for the end-user.
I became interested in PD, as it looks like you can build an audio engine from the ground up, but I haven't read anything to say that patches can be compiled into a form that is executable on target machines that don't have PD installed.
Maybe this paradigm only works if your using, at some level, microsoft technology - I know, for example, that you need the JVM installed to run Java applications...
Any ideas or pointers would be greatly appreciated.
Richard.
-----Original Message----- From: B. Bogart [mailto:ben@ekran.org] Sent: 20 December 2003 16:29 To: Richard Skelton; pd-list@iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] PD "Projector", Executables or similar
What kind of functionality are you actually looking for? I think most visual libs will cause audio glitches so you may need to have two PDs running simultaneously communicating to one and other.
There are libs such as PDP-PiDiP (2D video centric) Gem (OpenGL centric) Gridflow (2D/ matrix centric). This may not all run on all PD OSs!
Good luck.
Ben ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Skelton" Richard.Skelton@bainesandernst.com To: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 9:20 AM Subject: [PD] PD "Projector", Executables or similar
Hi List,
I'm looking for something suitable to use in developing generative audio-visual pieces that I can distribute as CDROMs.
At the moment, I'm using Macromedia Director, which does the job, but has rather limited A-V capabilities. I'd also rather not use a piece of proprietary software.
Whilst considering other options, such as C++/DirectX, Java and
"Processing"
(www.Proce55ing.net), I stumbled across PD, and noticed the following comments by Guenter, in a recent thread :
The ultimate goal would be to be able to build your director-like GUI within pd directly. .. or implement a flashplayer etc .. :)
PD/GEM looks like an incredibly flexible and powerful A-V development environment, but am I right in thinking you need both installed and configured on a target machine in order to run a completed patch/abstraction?
If so, are there any plans to develop a PD "Projector" or equivalent, so that performances can be played on machines that don't have PD installed?
Forgive me if any of the above seems idiotic, but your comments, nevertheless, would be appreciated.
Many thanks
Richard Skelton
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If the target platform is Windows then distribution of a pd/GEM binary with the patch(es) you want to use is most likely possible. I would try stripping pd down to the /bin folder with all it's contents and the /extra folder with the GEM dll and your patches inside it, and write a script to launch pd with GEM and your patch. Perhaps defaulting the audio to the first stereo output would be enough, but I'm sure that some configurations would have trouble with that and have to set the devices using 0.37's menus.
For OSX, a version of Pd compiled against an included local copy of tcl/tk might work. Try changing the configure and make to look for ../tcl instead of /Library/Frameworks for the libs. I might test this out myself over the weekend.
cgc
On Jan 2, 2004, at 10:23 AM, Richard Skelton wrote:
Thanks for your reply Ben.
I don't know whether you're familiar with Macromedia Director, but it allows you to create fairly self-contained audio visual pieces that can be distributed as windows ".exe" applications on CDROM.
These can either be launched from CD, or copied to hard disk and run with minimal hassle. I think Director uses Microsoft's DirectSound component of DirectX, although the functionality is very restricted - you can just about play multiple audio samples and vary their pitch, volume and pan, but that's about it. No synthesis or DSP (unless using proprietary plugins, no doubt).
I'm looking to move onto something more powerful, whilst retaining the ability to create and distribute something on CD that is hassle free for the end-user.
I became interested in PD, as it looks like you can build an audio engine from the ground up, but I haven't read anything to say that patches can be compiled into a form that is executable on target machines that don't have PD installed.
Maybe this paradigm only works if your using, at some level, microsoft technology - I know, for example, that you need the JVM installed to run Java applications...
Any ideas or pointers would be greatly appreciated.
Richard.
On Fri, Jan 02, 2004 at 04:23:06PM +0000, Richard Skelton wrote:
I became interested in PD, as it looks like you can build an audio engine from the ground up, but I haven't read anything to say that patches can be compiled into a form that is executable on target machines that don't have PD installed.
It's possible to run PD directly from a windows cdrom; just put everything required (PD + tcl/tk) on a cdrom and lauch your work from a batch file that includes the paths to PD and tcl/tk. The patches would not be compiled and/or protected, but it would work. If you want a fancy front end, you can use Flash or Director to communicate with PD using XMLsocket or OSC. In this scheme, PD would run with the -nogui option.
-- Marc
Hallo, Richard Skelton hat gesagt: // Richard Skelton wrote:
Thanks for your reply Ben.
I don't know whether you're familiar with Macromedia Director, but it allows you to create fairly self-contained audio visual pieces that can be distributed as windows ".exe" applications on CDROM.
Which is totally useless unless you control which operating system your target audience runs.
I'm looking to move onto something more powerful, whilst retaining the ability to create and distribute something on CD that is hassle free for the end-user.
I'm sure that distributing Pd on CD is more hassle free than any Shockwave CD I had the pleasure of not being able to run on my Linux or a OS-X system.
I became interested in PD, as it looks like you can build an audio engine from the ground up, but I haven't read anything to say that patches can be compiled into a form that is executable on target machines that don't have PD installed.
Patches cannot be compiled into standalone applications, period. Max patches can with some tricks, Pd patches cannot. (Until someone sees the need to change that).
Patches do however run on Pd and Pd does run on many popular platforms. You don't need to have Pd "installed" to run a patch, just write a run.sh, run.bat or run.command file that calls a Pd executably on CD with your patch as startup argument. It really is that simple.
I somehow do not see *why* Pd patches should be compiled into an executable. What's wrong with text files? The whole world wide web is founded on text files? Why would anyone want to have a compiled web page that only runs on Windows?
Okay, Microsoft does want and did that, but who cares?
(Sorry if I sound a bit upset but: I'm sharing and opening up all my patches and I somehow would feel quite betrayed if compiled Pd patches would allow others to not share theirs when distributing them.)
ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
Hi all,
Frank Barknecht wrote:
(Sorry if I sound a bit upset but: I'm sharing and opening up all my patches and I somehow would feel quite betrayed if compiled Pd patches would allow others to not share theirs when distributing them.)
I really have to strongly second this opinion!!!!!
The only reason Max/MSP allows executables to be compiled is to allow people to run patches on multiple machines, thus getting around some of the trickiness of their licensing agreement. Now, with the Auvi video objects for Max/MSP, you have the added complications of the software writers telling you exactly which kinds of executables you can and cannot make with their objects, under penalty of a revoked license. This is their perogative as makers of closed-source, commercial software, but I would never personally accept such a restriction. Nor would I like to see this mentality carried over into PD.
In short, compiled executables go hand-in-hand with restrictive licenses. Period. Since PD is freely available, there is no reason for binary excecutables to be released without the source code [this in itself is a violation of GPL], and also no reason to release a patch without its "source code" [the text file which describes it] available as well.
As others have already noted, it is quite simple to make a "live CD" of PD with the patches you would like users to run. And in this case, you not only give somebody one patch, but access to a whole new tool. I guess they used to call that "added value" ;-)
Happy new year, D.
On Fri, Jan 02, 2004 at 08:07:19PM +0100, derek holzer wrote:
The only reason Max/MSP allows executables to be compiled is to allow people to run patches on multiple machines, thus getting around some of the trickiness of their licensing agreement.
I remember a couple of years ago I was able to "decompile" Max executables. It was on MacOS8. The actual patches where embedded in the "resource fork" of the executable, and it was trivial to transfert the data to a Max file.
Nor would I like to see this mentality carried over into PD.
It's very difficult to change the mainstream artistic mentality, and the public accept to be treated like bad children, or even worst, like pirates.
As others have already noted, it is quite simple to make a "live CD" of PD with the patches you would like users to run. And in this case, you not only give somebody one patch, but access to a whole new tool. I guess they used to call that "added value" ;-)
But I don't think artists will embrace the live cd technology unless its content can be protected. Although I think content should be open, it is the responsability of the artists to decide if they should protect part of their works, using publicly available technology. It would be possible to create an encrypted live cd, and it could potentially help artists embrace free technology. The problem we're facing now with DRM and anti-copy technologies is that they are designed by big companies for their own profit. There's nothing wrong with anti-copy technology if we all have access to the technology and decide what we can do with it.
-- Marc
Hi all
i was wondering if there is some way to select the sound input source from PD. I mean between microphone, linein, soundmix, etc ..........
in most operative systems you need to do it in some sound control pannel. But some programs allows you to set it directly, like Audacity does for example.
thanks
hi!
for linux/oss, there is a [ossmixer] which understands [set_input( messages.
regards d13b
enrike wrote:
Hi all
i was wondering if there is some way to select the sound input source from PD. I mean between microphone, linein, soundmix, etc ..........
in most operative systems you need to do it in some sound control pannel. But some programs allows you to set it directly, like Audacity does for example.
thanks
sorry, forgot to say: it's part of ext13
regards d13b
d wrote:
hi!
for linux/oss, there is a [ossmixer] which understands [set_input( messages.
regards d13b
enrike wrote:
Hi all
i was wondering if there is some way to select the sound input source from PD. I mean between microphone, linein, soundmix, etc ..........
in most operative systems you need to do it in some sound control pannel. But some programs allows you to set it directly, like Audacity does for example.
thanks
for linux/oss, there is a [ossmixer] which understands [set_input( messages.
what about windows? I dont see that object in the ext13 windows help
sorry, no oss in windows -> no ossmixer in windows :(
regards d13b
On Fri, 2004-01-02 at 14:07, derek holzer wrote:
The only reason Max/MSP allows executables to be compiled is to allow people to run patches on multiple machines, thus getting around some of the trickiness of their licensing agreement.
but also to allow commercial distribution. But it's really easy to extract the patches from the compiled app (for educational purposes only :) ).
In short, compiled executables go hand-in-hand with restrictive licenses. Period. Since PD is freely available, there is no reason for binary excecutables to be released without the source code [this in itself is a violation of GPL], and also no reason to release a patch without its "source code" [the text file which describes it] available as well.
Note, however, that pd is not GPL. However, many externs and abstractions are GPL so it would be difficult to release something without releasing the source (and keeping it legal).
As others have already noted, it is quite simple to make a "live CD" of PD with the patches you would like users to run. And in this case, you not only give somebody one patch, but access to a whole new tool. I guess they used to call that "added value" ;-)
And this is truly platform independent (well, not really because all those SGI, Sun, Apple users will not be able to run Intel geared CDs) and without any additional software requirements. Nearly all Intel based computers will boot and run it (I don't know the status of PowerPC based Live CDs and other architectures). This is especially suitable option for those who are into doing generative music CDs that can play for hours (days, months....) and gallery installations and such. Also, added value is that a lay user, gallery maintainer, etc will not accidentally mess up the system.
./MiS
_
__ __ (_)___ Michal Seta
/ \/ \ _/^ _|
/ V |_ \ @creazone.32k.org
(___/V___|_|___/ http://www.%5Bcreazone%5D%7C%5Bnoonereceiving%5D.32k.org
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d -
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enrike -
Frank Barknecht -
Marc Lavallée -
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Richard Skelton