Dear list !
Where can I find the most complete PD-objects and commands reference, please ?
And why it is not on the main site - puredata.info ?
Thankyou !
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-09-03 00:19, ?????? ???????? wrote:
Dear list !
Where can I find the most complete PD-objects and commands reference, please ?
right click on the object. select help.
And why it is not on the main site - puredata.info ?
because with help-patches that yre on your computer you do not have to be online and you can copy&paste interesting stuff.
fgmasdr IOhannes
On 2012-09-03 00:19, ?????? ???????? wrote:
Dear list !
Where can I find the most complete PD-objects and commands reference, please ?
right click on the object. select help.
for pd-vanilla, right-click anywhere in an empty space, and select help.
for pd-extended, there isn't one. my list (attached) is the most complete
I know, although it's never actual. the pd-floss website also has a list,
but only with part of the objects in this document.
And why it is not on the main site - puredata.info ?
because with help-patches that yre on your computer you do not have to be online and you can copy&paste interesting stuff.
or rather more because development of pd-extended externals is a bit
chaotic, some developers don't do proper documentation, there isn't a
system to control the quality (or existence) of documentation, etc...
Jonathan Wilkes has done lots of work with pddp to update the
documentation. Pd-Ext 0.43 has much more ressources, including better help
patches for pd-vanilla. Also the object completion plugin helps to find
objects (pd-ext 0.43).
João
Thankyou for your list !
\ I know, although it's never actual.
- Why ? I mean that if I don't know all the objects by memory, and I need some function to be done - I need easy search by categorys and so on - with descriptions... it is much easear, than asking List every time... and also helps to learn other objects faster.
\Also the object completion plugin helps to find objects (pd-ext 0.43).
- what is it ? is it complemented with Extended 0.43 ? or should it be loaded apart ? and does it work for Windows ?
cheers !
serg
Mon, 03 Sep 2012 11:24:09 +0200 от João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com:
On 2012-09-03 00:19, ?????? ???????? wrote:
Dear list !
Where can I find the most complete PD-objects and commands
reference, please ?
right click on the object.
select help.
for pd-vanilla, right-click anywhere in an empty space, and select help.
for pd-extended, there isn't one. my list (attached) is the most complete
I know, although it's never actual. the pd-floss website also has a list,
but only with part of the objects in this document.
And why it is not on the main site - puredata.info ?
because with help-patches that yre on your computer you do not have to
be online and you can copy&paste interesting stuff.
or rather more because development of pd-extended externals is a bit
chaotic, some developers don't do proper documentation, there isn't a
system to control the quality (or existence) of documentation, etc...
Jonathan Wilkes has done lots of work with pddp to update the
documentation. Pd-Ext 0.43 has much more ressources, including better help
patches for pd-vanilla. Also the object completion plugin helps to find
objects (pd-ext 0.43).
João
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-09-03 12:16, ?????? ???????? wrote:
Thankyou for your list !
\ I know, although it's never actual.
- Why ? I mean that if I don't know all the objects by memory, and
I need some function to be done - I need easy search by categorys and so on - with descriptions... it is much easear, than asking List every time... and also helps to learn other objects faster.
\Also the object completion plugin helps to find objects (pd-ext 0.43).
- what is it ? is it complemented with Extended 0.43 ? or should
it be loaded apart ? and does it work for Windows ?
i don't know whether it comes with PdX-0.43. if not you can find it at [1]. if it does come with PdX, it's probably disabled, find it and copy it to the "right place" to enable it [2].
fmgasdr IOhannes
[1] http://puredata.info/downloads/completion-plugin [2] http://puredata.info/docs/faq/how-do-i-install-externals-and-help-files
Thankyou for your list !
\ I know, although it's never actual.
- Why ? I mean that if I don't know all the objects by memory, and I
need some function to be done - I need easy search by categorys and so
on - with descriptions... it is much easear, than asking List every
time... and also helps to learn other objects faster.
this list (or method) is never actual or effective, because I did with
copy-paste, object per object. besides it doesn't have all the objects (I
don't have the time for it), with each build of Pd-ext new objects come
in, others go out, or objects get changed. Since there is no batch process
involved, to make the list actual, I would have to go through all objects
each time (already a couple thousands) and check if they're there, if
there are new ones, if the ones around have new features ...
Until an automatised process is around - like a batch file compiling the
fields of the pddp help files - and the developers follow the same
principles for documentation, there won't be an actual, automatic list of
objects.
\Also the object completion plugin helps to findobjects (pd-ext 0.43).
- what is it ? is it complemented with Extended 0.43 ? or should it be
loaded apart ? and does it work for Windows ?
IOhannes already gave the link, I think. it works with windows as well.
But, the list of objects inside it is also fixed, not dynamic, so it might
not correspond to your current Pd distribution. For more details on how to
improve the list inside this plugin, better ask the plugin creator. (I
already did, but I can't find the correspondence now)
Hello serg, I made an attempt to build a search engine awhile back: http://puredata.info/Members/jancsika/searchandbrowseplugin/view?searchterm=...
This plugin is designed to be exactly what you are looking for-- I know because I had the same problems when starting out with Pd and read similarly dreadful responses.
It is a GUI plugin. Use the links Iohannes provided to install it.
The plugin is designed to work with Pd-extended. (I also back-ported a version to use with Pd-l2ork but it isn't included there yet.) It searches for help patches in all the default sys and lib
paths, plus any extra ones you specify in the path dialog (though this dialog may have been removed in a recent version-- I don't remember).
Full text search works with all help patches. Searching by using the keywords listed toward the bottom of the main search page will only return results for help patches that have keyword metadata (i.e., help patches which I've revised to be searchable, which is maybe half of everything in Pd-extended).
For me full text searches tend to take a few seconds on my GNU/Linux machine and much longer on OSX. (In Windows the first search takes forever but subsequent searches are somewhat faster.) I think improving the speed would require building an index and would be a lot more work.
You won't get results for classes that don't have help patches, but then if the developer was too lazy to document what the object does then I'm sure they used all the time saved to make the object work flawlessly... :)
Speaking of dev laziness-- there are many objects which have nearly empty help patches. If you run into this, be sure to try clicking the little "info" icon next to the search result. It will bring up the README.txt file for the corresponding library which often will give you a few more clues about the object in question. You can also click the folder icon to open an external file browser to see the full contents of an external library (like the
binaries and and other non-doc files).
Let me know if there are any keyword categories that would be useful to add to the main search page.
Best, Jonathan
From: Фывапр Олджэвич tofuckof@inbox.ru To: João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at; IOhannes m zmoelnig zmoelnig@iem.at Sent: Monday, September 3, 2012 6:16 AM Subject: Re: [PD] finding objects ?
Thankyou for your list !
\ I know, although it's never actual.
- Why ? I mean that if I don't know all the objects by memory, and I need some function to be done - I need easy search by categorys and so on - with descriptions... it is much easear, than asking List every time... and also helps to learn other objects faster.
\Also the object completion plugin helps to find objects (pd-ext 0.43).
- what is it ? is it complemented with Extended 0.43 ? or should it be loaded apart ? and does it work for Windows ?
cheers !
serg
Mon, 03 Sep 2012 11:24:09 +0200 от João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com:
On 2012-09-03 00:19, ?????? ???????? wrote:
Dear list !
Where can I find the most complete PD-objects and commands reference, please ?
right click on the object. select help.
for pd-vanilla, right-click anywhere in an empty space, and select help. for pd-extended, there isn't one. my list (attached) is the most complete I know, although it's never actual. the pd-floss website also has a list, but only with part of the objects in this document.
And why it is not on the main site - puredata.info ?
because with help-patches that yre on your computer you do not have to be online and you can copy&paste interesting stuff.
or rather more because development of pd-extended externals is a bit chaotic, some developers don't do proper documentation, there isn't a system to control the quality (or existence) of documentation, etc...
Jonathan Wilkes has done lots of work with pddp to update the documentation. Pd-Ext 0.43 has much more ressources, including better help patches for pd-vanilla. Also the object completion plugin helps to find objects (pd-ext 0.43).
João
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-09-04 05:08, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
Hello serg, I made an attempt to build a search engine awhile back: http://puredata.info/Members/jancsika/searchandbrowseplugin
would you mind adding that to the "download" section?
fgmasdr IOhannes
Thanks, Jonathan !
Seems, you did a giant work.
I'll try to set it up on my machine .
best !
serg
Mon, 3 Sep 2012 20:08:16 -0700 (PDT) от Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com:
Hello serg,
I made an attempt to build a search engine awhile back:
http://puredata.info/Members/jancsika/searchandbrowseplugin/view?searchterm=...
This plugin is designed to be exactly what you are looking for-- I know because I had the same problems
when starting out with Pd and read similarly dreadful responses.
It is a GUI plugin. Use the links Iohannes provided to install it.
The plugin is designed to work with Pd-extended. (I also back-ported a version to use with Pd-l2ork but it
isn't included there yet.) It searches for help patches in all the default sys and lib
paths, plus any extra ones you specify in the path dialog (though this dialog may have been removed
in a recent version-- I don't remember).
Full text search works with all help patches. Searching by using the keywords listed toward the bottom of
the main search page will only return results for help patches that have keyword metadata (i.e., help
patches which I've revised to be searchable, which is maybe half of everything in Pd-extended).
For me full text searches tend to take a few seconds on my GNU/Linux machine and much longer on
OSX. (In Windows the first search takes forever but subsequent searches are somewhat faster.) I think
improving the speed would require building an index and would be a lot more work.
You won't get results for classes that don't have help patches, but then if the developer was too lazy to
document what the object does then I'm sure they used all the time saved to make the object work flawlessly... :)
Speaking of dev laziness-- there are many objects which have nearly empty help patches. If you run into
this, be sure to try clicking the little "info" icon next to the search result. It will bring up the README.txt file
for the corresponding library which often will give you a few more clues about the object in question. You can
also click the folder icon to open an external file browser to see the full contents of an external library (like the
binaries and and other non-doc files).
Let me know if there are any keyword categories that would be useful to add to the main search page.
Best,
Jonathan
From: Фывапр Олджэвич tofuckof@inbox.ru
To: João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com
Cc: pd-list@iem.at; IOhannes m zmoelnig zmoelnig@iem.at
Sent: Monday, September 3, 2012 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: [PD] finding objects ?
Thankyou for your list !
\ I know, although it's never actual.
- Why ? I mean that if I don't know all the objects by memory, and I need some function to be done - I need easy search by categorys and so on - with descriptions... it is much easear, than asking List every time... and also helps to learn other objects faster.
\Also the object completion plugin helps to find
objects (pd-ext 0.43).
- what is it ? is it complemented with Extended 0.43 ? or should it be loaded apart ? and does it work for Windows ?
cheers !
serg
Mon, 03 Sep 2012 11:24:09 +0200 от João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com:
On 2012-09-03 00:19, ?????? ???????? wrote:
Dear list !
Where can I find the most complete PD-objects and commands
reference, please ?
right click on the object.
select help.
for pd-vanilla, right-click anywhere in an empty space, and select help.
for pd-extended, there isn't one. my list (attached) is the most complete
I know, although it's never actual. the pd-floss website also has a list,
but only with part of the objects in this document.
And why it is not on the main site - puredata.info ?
because with help-patches that yre on your computer you do not have to
be online and you can copy&paste interesting stuff.
or rather more because development of pd-extended externals is a bit
chaotic, some developers don't do proper documentation, there isn't a
system to control the quality (or existence) of documentation, etc...
Jonathan Wilkes has done lots of work with pddp to update the
documentation. Pd-Ext 0.43 has much more ressources, including better help
patches for pd-vanilla. Also the object completion plugin helps to find
objects (pd-ext 0.43).
João
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Jonathan, I will be willing to help with introducing indexing option into the search plugin. I think it is essential to making this a useful addition to pd-l2ork. As it is right now, it requires too much time, particularly on low power devices (e.g. netbooks). I'll also gladly add a flag (if you like) inside pd-l2ork to force re-indexing (or maybe it should simply reindex at each startup). If anyone else wishes to contribute, let me know...
-----Original Message----- From: pd-list-bounces@iem.at [mailto:pd-list-bounces@iem.at] On Behalf Of Jonathan Wilkes Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 11:08 PM To: Фывапр Олджэвич; João Pais Cc: pd-list@iem.at; IOhannes m zmoelnig Subject: Re: [PD] finding objects ?
Hello serg, I made an attempt to build a search engine awhile back: http://puredata.info/Members/jancsika/searchandbrowseplugin/view?sear chterm=search%20plugin
This plugin is designed to be exactly what you are looking for-- I know because I had the same problems when starting out with Pd and read similarly dreadful responses.
It is a GUI plugin. Use the links Iohannes provided to install it.
The plugin is designed to work with Pd-extended. (I also back-ported a version to use with Pd-l2ork but it isn't included there yet.) It searches for help patches in all the default sys and lib
paths, plus any extra ones you specify in the path dialog (though this dialog may have been removed in a recent version-- I don't remember).
Full text search works with all help patches. Searching by using the keywords listed toward the bottom of the main search page will only return results for help patches that have keyword metadata (i.e., help patches which I've revised to be searchable, which is maybe half of everything in Pd-extended).
For me full text searches tend to take a few seconds on my GNU/Linux machine and much longer on OSX. (In Windows the first search takes forever but subsequent searches are somewhat faster.) I think improving the speed would require building an index and would be a lot more work.
You won't get results for classes that don't have help patches, but then if the developer was too lazy to document what the object does then I'm sure they used all the time saved to make the object work flawlessly... :)
Speaking of dev laziness-- there are many objects which have nearly empty help patches. If you run into this, be sure to try clicking the little "info" icon next to the search result. It will bring up the README.txt file for the corresponding library which often will give you a few more clues about the object in question. You can also click the folder icon to open an external file browser to see the full contents of an external library (like the
binaries and and other non-doc files).
Let me know if there are any keyword categories that would be useful to add to the main search page.
Best, Jonathan
From: Фывапр Олджэвич tofuckof@inbox.ru To: João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at; IOhannes m zmoelnig zmoelnig@iem.at Sent: Monday, September 3, 2012 6:16 AM Subject: Re: [PD] finding objects ?
Thankyou for your list !
\ I know, although it's never actual.
- Why ? I mean that if I don't know all the objects by memory, and I need
some function to be done - I need easy search by categorys and so on - with descriptions... it is much easear, than asking List every time... and also helps to learn other objects faster.
\Also the object completion plugin helps to find objects (pd-ext 0.43).
- what is it ? is it complemented with Extended 0.43 ? or should it be loaded
apart ? and does it work for Windows ?
cheers !
serg
Mon, 03 Sep 2012 11:24:09 +0200 от João Pais
On 2012-09-03 00:19, ?????? ???????? wrote:
Dear list !
Where can I find the most complete PD-objects and commands reference, please ?
right click on the object. select help.
for pd-vanilla, right-click anywhere in an empty space, and select help. for pd-extended, there isn't one. my list (attached) is the most complete I know, although it's never actual. the pd-floss website also has a list, but only with part of the objects in this document.
And why it is not on the main site - puredata.info ?
because with help-patches that yre on your computer you do not have
to
be online and you can copy&paste interesting stuff.
or rather more because development of pd-extended externals is a bit chaotic, some developers don't do proper documentation, there isn't a system to control the quality (or existence) of documentation, etc...
Jonathan Wilkes has done lots of work with pddp to update the documentation. Pd-Ext 0.43 has much more ressources, including better
help
patches for pd-vanilla. Also the object completion plugin helps to find objects (pd-ext 0.43).
João
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivica Ico Bukvic ico@vt.edu To: 'Jonathan Wilkes' jancsika@yahoo.com; 'Фывапр Олджэвич' tofuckof@inbox.ru; 'João Pais' jmmmpais@googlemail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at; 'IOhannes m zmoelnig' zmoelnig@iem.at Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2012 9:35 AM Subject: RE: [PD] finding objects ?
Jonathan, I will be willing to help with introducing indexing option into the search plugin. I think it is essential to making this a useful addition to pd-l2ork. As it is right now, it requires too much time, particularly on low power devices (e.g. netbooks). I'll also gladly add a flag (if you like) inside pd-l2ork to force re-indexing (or maybe it should simply reindex at each startup). If anyone else wishes to contribute, let me know...
That sounds good. Hans suggested looking at Xapian, which says it has bindings for Tcl. Might be easier than doing indexing in Tcl.
To be user friendly I think there needs to be a "first use" message in the main page of the search that directs the user to click a link to do the initial index. (If you do it automatically you force the netbook user to wait a long time-- same problem for doing it at startup.) Once the index exists I can then just have the link available without the message and people can reindex as they see fit.
The other possibility is that the plugin will display the message to reindex every time the docs change, but that would only work if the time it takes to check is much smaller than the time it takes to index.
Is there a way to quickly get a hash of all the doc files?
-Jonathan
-----Original Message----- From: pd-list-bounces@iem.at [mailto:pd-list-bounces@iem.at] On Behalf Of Jonathan Wilkes Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 11:08 PM To: Фывапр Олджэвич; João Pais Cc: pd-list@iem.at; IOhannes m zmoelnig Subject: Re: [PD] finding objects ?
Hello serg, I made an attempt to build a search engine awhile back: http://puredata.info/Members/jancsika/searchandbrowseplugin/view?sear chterm=search%20plugin
This plugin is designed to be exactly what you are looking for-- I know because I had the same problems when starting out with Pd and read similarly dreadful responses.
It is a GUI plugin. Use the links Iohannes provided to install it.
The plugin is designed to work with Pd-extended. (I also back-ported a version to use with Pd-l2ork but it isn't included there yet.) It
searches for
help patches in all the default sys and lib
paths, plus any extra ones you specify in the path dialog (though this
dialog
may have been removed in a recent version-- I don't remember).
Full text search works with all help patches. Searching by using the
keywords
listed toward the bottom of the main search page will only return results
for
help patches that have keyword metadata (i.e., help patches which I've revised to be searchable, which is maybe half of everything in
Pd-extended).
For me full text searches tend to take a few seconds on my GNU/Linux machine and much longer on OSX. (In Windows the first search takes forever but subsequent searches are somewhat faster.) I think improving the speed would require building an index and would be a lot more work.
You won't get results for classes that don't have help patches, but
then if the
developer was too lazy to document what the object does then I'm sure
they
used all the time saved to make the object work flawlessly... :)
Speaking of dev laziness-- there are many objects which have nearly empty help patches. If you run into this, be sure to try clicking the little
"info" icon
next to the search result. It will bring up the README.txt file for the corresponding library which often will give you a few more clues about the object in question. You can also click the folder icon to open an external
file
browser to see the full contents of an external library (like the
binaries and and other non-doc files).
Let me know if there are any keyword categories that would be useful to add to the main search page.
Best, Jonathan
From: Фывапр Олджэвич tofuckof@inbox.ru To: João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at; IOhannes m zmoelnig zmoelnig@iem.at Sent: Monday, September 3, 2012 6:16 AM Subject: Re: [PD] finding objects ?
Thankyou for your list !
\ I know, although it's never actual.
- Why ? I mean that if I don't know all the objects by memory, and
I need
some function to be done - I need easy search by categorys and so on - with descriptions... it is much easear, than asking List every time... and also
helps
to learn other objects faster.
\Also the object completion plugin helps to find objects (pd-ext 0.43).
- what is it ? is it complemented with Extended 0.43 ? or should it be
loaded
apart ? and does it work for Windows ?
cheers !
serg
Mon, 03 Sep 2012 11:24:09 +0200 от João Pais
On 2012-09-03 00:19, ?????? ???????? wrote:
Dear list !
Where can I find the most complete PD-objects and commands reference, please ?
right click on the object. select help.
for pd-vanilla, right-click anywhere in an empty space, and select
help.
for pd-extended, there isn't one. my list (attached) is the
most complete
I know, although it's never actual. the pd-floss website also
has a list,
but only with part of the objects in this document.
And why it is not on the main site - puredata.info ?
because with help-patches that yre on your computer you do not
have
to
be online and you can copy&paste interesting stuff.
or rather more because development of pd-extended externals is a
bit
chaotic, some developers don't do proper documentation, there
isn't a
system to control the quality (or existence) of documentation,
etc...
Jonathan Wilkes has done lots of work with pddp to update the documentation. Pd-Ext 0.43 has much more ressources, including
better
help
patches for pd-vanilla. Also the object completion plugin helps to
find
objects (pd-ext 0.43).
João
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Jonathan, I will be willing to help with introducing indexing option into the search plugin. I think it is essential to making this a useful addition to pd-l2ork. As it is right now, it requires too much time, particularly on low power devices (e.g. netbooks). I'll also gladly add a flag (if you like) inside pd-l2ork to force re-indexing (or maybe it should simply reindex at each startup). If anyone else wishes
to contribute, let me know...
That sounds good. Hans suggested looking at Xapian, which says it has bindings for Tcl. Might be easier than doing indexing in Tcl.
To be user friendly I think there needs to be a "first use" message in the main page of the search that directs the user to click a link to do the initial index. (If you do it automatically you force the netbook user to wait a long time-- same problem for doing it at startup.) Once the index exists I can then just have the link available without the message and people can reindex as they see fit.
The other possibility is that the plugin will display the message to reindex every time the docs change, but that would only work if the time it takes to check is much smaller than the time it takes to index.
Is there a way to quickly get a hash of all the doc files?
I am of the conviction that the more automated things are, the better the experience for the user. Hence, if this only adds a few seconds at the start-up (assuming it is optimized enough, perhaps relying on a secondary tool to do indexing that returns a list to tcl), I am all for that...
-Jonathan
-----Original Message----- From: pd-list-bounces@iem.at [mailto:pd-list-bounces@iem.at] On Behalf Of Jonathan Wilkes Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 11:08 PM To: Фывапр Олджэвич; João Pais Cc: pd-list@iem.at; IOhannes m zmoelnig Subject: Re: [PD] finding objects ?
Hello serg, I made an attempt to build a search engine awhile back:
http://puredata.info/Members/jancsika/searchandbrowseplugin/view?sear
chterm=search%20plugin
This plugin is designed to be exactly what you are looking for-- I know because I had the same problems when starting out with Pd and read similarly dreadful responses.
It is a GUI plugin. Use the links Iohannes provided to install it.
The plugin is designed to work with Pd-extended. (I also back-ported a version to use with Pd-l2ork but it isn't included there yet.) It
searches for
help patches in all the default sys and lib
paths, plus any extra ones you specify in the path dialog (though this
dialog
may have been removed in a recent version-- I don't remember).
Full text search works with all help patches. Searching by using the
keywords
listed toward the bottom of the main search page will only return results
for
help patches that have keyword metadata (i.e., help patches which I've revised to be searchable, which is maybe half of everything in
Pd-extended).
For me full text searches tend to take a few seconds on my GNU/Linux machine and much longer on OSX. (In Windows the first search takes forever but subsequent searches are somewhat faster.) I think improving the speed would require building an index and would be a lot
more work.
You won't get results for classes that don't have help patches, but
then if the
developer was too lazy to document what the object does then I'm sure
they
used all the time saved to make the object work flawlessly... :)
Speaking of dev laziness-- there are many objects which have nearly empty help patches. If you run into this, be sure to try clicking the little
"info" icon
next to the search result. It will bring up the README.txt file for the corresponding library which often will give you a few more clues about the object in question. You can also click the folder icon to open an external
file
browser to see the full contents of an external library (like the
binaries and and other non-doc files).
Let me know if there are any keyword categories that would be useful to add to the main search page.
Best, Jonathan
From: Фывапр Олджэвич tofuckof@inbox.ru To: João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at; IOhannes m zmoelnig zmoelnig@iem.at Sent: Monday, September 3, 2012 6:16 AM Subject: Re: [PD] finding objects ?
Thankyou for your list !
\ I know, although it's never actual.
- Why ? I mean that if I don't know all the objects by memory, and
I need
some function to be done - I need easy search by categorys and so on
- with descriptions... it is much easear, than asking List every
time... and also
helps
to learn other objects faster.
\Also the object completion plugin helps to find >objects (pd-ext
0.43).
- what is it ? is it complemented with Extended 0.43 ? or should it
be
loaded
apart ? and does it work for Windows ?
cheers !
serg
Mon, 03 Sep 2012 11:24:09 +0200 от João Pais
On 2012-09-03 00:19, ?????? ???????? wrote: > Dear list ! > > Where can I find the most complete PD-objects and commands > reference, please ?
right click on the object. select help.
for pd-vanilla, right-click anywhere in an empty space, and select
help.
for pd-extended, there isn't one. my list (attached) is the
most complete
I know, although it's never actual. the pd-floss website also
has a list,
but only with part of the objects in this document.
> And why it is not on the main site - puredata.info ? >
because with help-patches that yre on your computer you do not
have
to
be online and you can copy&paste interesting stuff.
or rather more because development of pd-extended externals is a
bit
chaotic, some developers don't do proper documentation, there
isn't a
system to control the quality (or existence) of documentation,
etc...
Jonathan Wilkes has done lots of work with pddp to update the documentation. Pd-Ext 0.43 has much more ressources, including
better
help
patches for pd-vanilla. Also the object completion plugin helps to
find
objects (pd-ext 0.43).
João
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivica Ico Bukvic ico@vt.edu To: 'Jonathan Wilkes' jancsika@yahoo.com; 'Фывапр Олджэвич' tofuckof@inbox.ru; 'João Pais' jmmmpais@googlemail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at; 'IOhannes m zmoelnig' zmoelnig@iem.at Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2012 12:45 PM Subject: RE: [PD] finding objects ?
Jonathan, I will be willing to help with introducing indexing option into the search plugin. I think it is essential to making this a useful addition to pd-l2ork. As it is right now, it requires too much time, particularly on low power devices (e.g. netbooks). I'll also gladly add a flag (if you like) inside pd-l2ork to force re-indexing (or maybe it should simply reindex at each startup). If anyone else
wishes
to contribute, let me know...
That sounds good. Hans suggested looking at Xapian, which says it has bindings for Tcl. Might be easier than doing indexing in Tcl.
To be user friendly I think there needs to be a "first use"
message in the main
page of the search that directs the user to click a link to do the initial index. (If you do it automatically you force the netbook user to wait a
long
time-- same problem for doing it at startup.) Once the index exists I can
then
just have the link available without the message and people can reindex as they see fit.
The other possibility is that the plugin will display the message to
reindex
every time the docs change, but that would only work if the time it takes
to
check is much smaller than the time it takes to index.
Is there a way to quickly get a hash of all the doc files?
I am of the conviction that the more automated things are, the better the experience for the user. Hence, if this only adds a few seconds at the start-up (assuming it is optimized enough, perhaps relying on a secondary tool to do indexing that returns a list to tcl), I am all for that...
I'd _much_ rather have the automation happen when the user decides to click the button that opens the "Search dialog". Even better, I'd like the index to be built only at the moment that the search plugin initiates a search, and have my plugin display a message to the user that says, "Building an index from the Pd docs. This will happen on the first search of each new instance of Pd. This way if new docs get added they will be reflected in your results the next time you run Pd. If you've made it all the way through this paragraph and the index hasn't finished then we haven't done a good job of making the index fast enough to not bother you, but at least you know the problem probably lies with the search feature. I mean, imagine if we just made Pd reindex every time Pd started and you ran into this problem. You wouldn't know if this was the culprit or whether it was one of a thousand other things Pd is silently doing when you start it. You can thank Jonathan for saving you the work of figuring that out, as well as blame him for not making the indexing happen fast enough.
[bang; error list You're I'm welcome. sorry., set( | [expr $f2+2; $f2%2+1 ]x[t a] | [adddollar $1( | [s error]
[r error] | [ ( | [print error]
"
-Jonathan
-Jonathan
-----Original Message----- From: pd-list-bounces@iem.at [mailto:pd-list-bounces@iem.at] On Behalf Of Jonathan Wilkes Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 11:08 PM To: Фывапр Олджэвич; João Pais Cc: pd-list@iem.at; IOhannes m zmoelnig Subject: Re: [PD] finding objects ?
Hello serg, I made an attempt to build a search engine awhile back:
http://puredata.info/Members/jancsika/searchandbrowseplugin/view?sear
chterm=search%20plugin
This plugin is designed to be exactly what you are looking for--
I
know because I had the same problems when starting out with Pd
and
read similarly dreadful responses.
It is a GUI plugin. Use the links Iohannes provided to install
it.
The plugin is designed to work with Pd-extended. (I also back-ported a version to use with Pd-l2ork but it isn't
included
there yet.) It
searches for
help patches in all the default sys and lib
paths, plus any extra ones you specify in the path dialog (though this
dialog
may have been removed in a recent version-- I don't
remember).
Full text search works with all help patches. Searching by using the
keywords
listed toward the bottom of the main search page will only return results
for
help patches that have keyword metadata (i.e., help patches which I've revised to be searchable, which is maybe half of
everything in
Pd-extended).
For me full text searches tend to take a few seconds on my
GNU/Linux
machine and much longer on OSX. (In Windows the first search
takes
forever but subsequent searches are somewhat faster.) I think improving the speed would require building an index and would be
a lot
more work.
You won't get results for classes that don't have help
patches, but
then if the
developer was too lazy to document what the object does then
I'm
sure
they
used all the time saved to make the object work flawlessly... :)
Speaking of dev laziness-- there are many objects which have
nearly
empty help patches. If you run into this, be sure to try
clicking
the little
"info" icon
next to the search result. It will bring up the README.txt file
for
the corresponding library which often will give you a few more
clues
about the object in question. You can also click the folder icon
to
open an external
file
browser to see the full contents of an external library (like the
binaries and and other non-doc files).
Let me know if there are any keyword categories that would be
useful
to add to the main search page.
Best, Jonathan
>________________________________ > From: Фывапр Олджэвич tofuckof@inbox.ru >To: João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com >Cc: pd-list@iem.at; IOhannes m zmoelnig
>Sent: Monday, September 3, 2012 6:16 AM >Subject: Re: [PD] finding objects ? > > >Thankyou for your list ! > > >\ I know, although it's never actual. > >- Why ? I mean that if I don't know all the objects by
memory, and
I need
some function to be done - I need easy search by categorys and so
on
- with descriptions... it is much easear, than asking List every
time... and also
helps
to learn other objects faster. > >\Also the object completion plugin helps to find
objects (pd-ext
0.43). > >- what is it ? is it complemented with Extended 0.43 ? or
should it
be
loaded
apart ? and does it work for Windows ? > > >cheers ! > >serg > > > >Mon, 03 Sep 2012 11:24:09 +0200 от João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com: > > >> >>> On 2012-09-03 00:19, ?????? ???????? wrote: >>>> Dear list ! >>>> >>>> Where can I find the most complete PD-objects
and commands
>> reference, please ?
>>> >>> right click on the object. >>> select help. >> >>for pd-vanilla, right-click anywhere in an empty space,
and select
help.
>>for pd-extended, there isn't one. my list (attached)
is the
most complete
>>I know, although it's never actual. the pd-floss
website also
has a list,
>>but only with part of the objects in this document. >> >> >>>> And why it is not on the main site -
puredata.info ?
>>>> >>> >>> because with help-patches that yre on your computer
you do not
have
to >>> be online and you can copy&paste interesting
stuff.
>> >>or rather more because development of pd-extended
externals is a
bit
>>chaotic, some developers don't do proper
documentation, there
isn't a
>>system to control the quality (or existence) of
documentation,
etc...
>> >>Jonathan Wilkes has done lots of work with pddp to update
the
documentation. Pd-Ext 0.43 has much more ressources,
including
better
help >>patches for pd-vanilla. Also the object completion plugin
helps to
find
>>objects (pd-ext 0.43). >> >> >>João >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Pd-list@iem.at mailing list >>UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Pd-list@iem.at mailing list >UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > > >
_______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd vanilla starts and quits in 0.2 sec total. (1.6 gHz Core 2) -- without GUI it can be done in about a millisecond (so you can use Pd in a batch process and run it thousands of times if you want :) -- I see this as an important advantage.
cheers Miller
On Tue, Sep 04, 2012 at 01:04:08PM -0700, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivica Ico Bukvic ico@vt.edu To: 'Jonathan Wilkes' jancsika@yahoo.com; 'Фывапр Олджэвич' tofuckof@inbox.ru; 'João Pais' jmmmpais@googlemail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at; 'IOhannes m zmoelnig' zmoelnig@iem.at Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2012 12:45 PM Subject: RE: [PD] finding objects ?
Jonathan, I will be willing to help with introducing indexing option into the search plugin. I think it is essential to making this a useful addition to pd-l2ork. As it is right now, it requires too much time, particularly on low power devices (e.g. netbooks). I'll also gladly add a flag (if you like) inside pd-l2ork to force re-indexing (or maybe it should simply reindex at each startup). If anyone else
wishes
to contribute, let me know...
That sounds good. Hans suggested looking at Xapian, which says it has bindings for Tcl. Might be easier than doing indexing in Tcl.
To be user friendly I think there needs to be a "first use"
message in the main
page of the search that directs the user to click a link to do the initial index. (If you do it automatically you force the netbook user to wait a
long
time-- same problem for doing it at startup.) Once the index exists I can
then
just have the link available without the message and people can reindex as they see fit.
The other possibility is that the plugin will display the message to
reindex
every time the docs change, but that would only work if the time it takes
to
check is much smaller than the time it takes to index.
Is there a way to quickly get a hash of all the doc files?
I am of the conviction that the more automated things are, the better the experience for the user. Hence, if this only adds a few seconds at the start-up (assuming it is optimized enough, perhaps relying on a secondary tool to do indexing that returns a list to tcl), I am all for that...
I'd _much_ rather have the automation happen when the user decides to click the button that opens the "Search dialog". Even better, I'd like the index to be built only at the moment that the search plugin initiates a search, and have my plugin display a message to the user that says, "Building an index from the Pd docs. This will happen on the first search of each new instance of Pd. This way if new docs get added they will be reflected in your results the next time you run Pd. If you've made it all the way through this paragraph and the index hasn't finished then we haven't done a good job of making the index fast enough to not bother you, but at least you know the problem probably lies with the search feature. I mean, imagine if we just made Pd reindex every time Pd started and you ran into this problem. You wouldn't know if this was the culprit or whether it was one of a thousand other things Pd is silently doing when you start it. You can thank Jonathan for saving you the work of figuring that out, as well as blame him for not making the indexing happen fast enough.
[bang; error list You're I'm welcome. sorry., set( | [expr $f2+2; $f2%2+1 ]x[t a] | [adddollar $1( | [s error]
[r error] | [ ( | [print error]
"
-Jonathan
-Jonathan
-----Original Message----- From: pd-list-bounces@iem.at [mailto:pd-list-bounces@iem.at] On Behalf Of Jonathan Wilkes Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 11:08 PM To: Фывапр Олджэвич; João Pais Cc: pd-list@iem.at; IOhannes m zmoelnig Subject: Re: [PD] finding objects ?
Hello serg, I made an attempt to build a search engine awhile back:
http://puredata.info/Members/jancsika/searchandbrowseplugin/view?sear
chterm=search%20plugin
This plugin is designed to be exactly what you are looking for--
I
know because I had the same problems when starting out with Pd
and
read similarly dreadful responses.
It is a GUI plugin. Use the links Iohannes provided to install
it.
The plugin is designed to work with Pd-extended. (I also back-ported a version to use with Pd-l2ork but it isn't
included
there yet.) It
searches for
help patches in all the default sys and lib
paths, plus any extra ones you specify in the path dialog (though this
dialog
may have been removed in a recent version-- I don't
remember).
Full text search works with all help patches. Searching by using the
keywords
listed toward the bottom of the main search page will only return results
for
help patches that have keyword metadata (i.e., help patches which I've revised to be searchable, which is maybe half of
everything in
Pd-extended).
For me full text searches tend to take a few seconds on my
GNU/Linux
machine and much longer on OSX. (In Windows the first search
takes
forever but subsequent searches are somewhat faster.) I think improving the speed would require building an index and would be
a lot
more work.
You won't get results for classes that don't have help
patches, but
then if the
developer was too lazy to document what the object does then
I'm
sure
they
used all the time saved to make the object work flawlessly... :)
Speaking of dev laziness-- there are many objects which have
nearly
empty help patches. If you run into this, be sure to try
clicking
the little
"info" icon
next to the search result. It will bring up the README.txt file
for
the corresponding library which often will give you a few more
clues
about the object in question. You can also click the folder icon
to
open an external
file
browser to see the full contents of an external library (like the
binaries and and other non-doc files).
Let me know if there are any keyword categories that would be
useful
to add to the main search page.
Best, Jonathan
>________________________________ > From: Фывапр Олджэвич tofuckof@inbox.ru >To: João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com >Cc: pd-list@iem.at; IOhannes m zmoelnig
>Sent: Monday, September 3, 2012 6:16 AM >Subject: Re: [PD] finding objects ? > > >Thankyou for your list ! > > >\ I know, although it's never actual. > >- Why ? I mean that if I don't know all the objects by
memory, and
I need
some function to be done - I need easy search by categorys and so
on
- with descriptions... it is much easear, than asking List every
time... and also
helps
to learn other objects faster. > >\Also the object completion plugin helps to find
objects (pd-ext
0.43). > >- what is it ? is it complemented with Extended 0.43 ? or
should it
be
loaded
apart ? and does it work for Windows ? > > >cheers ! > >serg > > > >Mon, 03 Sep 2012 11:24:09 +0200 от João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com: > > >> >>> On 2012-09-03 00:19, ?????? ???????? wrote: >>>> Dear list ! >>>> >>>> Where can I find the most complete PD-objects
and commands
>>> reference, please ?
>>> >>> right click on the object. >>> select help. >> >>for pd-vanilla, right-click anywhere in an empty space,
and select
help.
>>for pd-extended, there isn't one. my list (attached)
is the
most complete
>>I know, although it's never actual. the pd-floss
website also
has a list,
>>but only with part of the objects in this document. >> >> >>>> And why it is not on the main site -
puredata.info ?
>>>> >>> >>> because with help-patches that yre on your computer
you do not
have
to >>> be online and you can copy&paste interesting
stuff.
>> >>or rather more because development of pd-extended
externals is a
bit
>>chaotic, some developers don't do proper
documentation, there
isn't a
>>system to control the quality (or existence) of
documentation,
etc...
>> >>Jonathan Wilkes has done lots of work with pddp to update
the
>documentation. Pd-Ext 0.43 has much more ressources,
including
better
help >>patches for pd-vanilla. Also the object completion plugin
helps to
find
>>objects (pd-ext 0.43). >> >> >>João >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Pd-list@iem.at mailing list >>UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Pd-list@iem.at mailing list >UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > > >
_______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
----- Original Message -----
From: Miller Puckette msp@ucsd.edu To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: Ivica Ico Bukvic ico@vt.edu; 'Фывапр Олджэвич' tofuckof@inbox.ru; 'João Pais' jmmmpais@googlemail.com; "pd-list@iem.at" pd-list@iem.at; 'IOhannes m zmoelnig' zmoelnig@iem.at Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2012 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [PD] finding objects ?
Pd vanilla starts and quits in 0.2 sec total. (1.6 gHz Core 2) -- without GUI it can be done in about a millisecond (so you can use Pd in a batch process and run it thousands of times if you want :) -- I see this as an important advantage.
I do too.
Speaking of batch processing-- I posted a message to the audacity list asking if there'd be any interest in adding the functionality for using Pure Data as a plugin language. I didn't get a response, but if anybody here has that interest as well as dev skills to actually do some of the work (i.e., I don't), I can put a little money toward that.
-Jonathan
cheers Miller
On Tue, Sep 04, 2012 at 01:04:08PM -0700, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivica Ico Bukvic ico@vt.edu To: 'Jonathan Wilkes' jancsika@yahoo.com; 'Фывапр
Олджэвич' tofuckof@inbox.ru; 'João Pais' jmmmpais@googlemail.com
Cc: pd-list@iem.at; 'IOhannes m zmoelnig'
Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2012 12:45 PM Subject: RE: [PD] finding objects ?
> Jonathan, I will be willing to help with introducing
indexing option
> into the search plugin. I think it is essential to making
this a
> useful addition to pd-l2ork. As it is right now, it requires
too much
> time, particularly on low power devices (e.g. netbooks).
I'll also
> gladly add a flag (if you like) inside pd-l2ork to force
re-indexing
> (or maybe it should simply reindex at each startup). If
anyone else
wishes
to contribute, let me know...
That sounds good. Hans suggested looking at Xapian, which says
it has
bindings for Tcl. Might be easier than doing indexing in Tcl.
To be user friendly I think there needs to be a "first
use"
message in the main
page of the search that directs the user to click a link to do
the initial
index. (If you do it automatically you force the netbook user to
wait a
long
time-- same problem for doing it at startup.) Once the index
exists I can
then
just have the link available without the message and people can
reindex as
they see fit.
The other possibility is that the plugin will display the message
to
reindex
every time the docs change, but that would only work if the time
it takes
to
check is much smaller than the time it takes to index.
Is there a way to quickly get a hash of all the doc files?
I am of the conviction that the more automated things are, the better
the
experience for the user. Hence, if this only adds a few seconds at the
start-up
(assuming it is optimized enough, perhaps relying on a secondary tool
to do
indexing that returns a list to tcl), I am all for that...
I'd _much_ rather have the automation happen when the user decides to
click
the button that opens the "Search dialog". Even better, I'd
like the index to be built
only at the moment that the search plugin initiates a search, and have my
plugin
display a message to the user that says, "Building an index from the
Pd docs.
This will happen on the first search of each new instance of Pd. This way if new docs get added they will be reflected in your results the next time
you run
Pd. If you've made it all the way through this paragraph and the index
hasn't
finished then we haven't done a good job of making the index fast
enough to not
bother you, but at least you know the problem probably lies with the search
feature.
I mean, imagine if we just made Pd reindex every time Pd started and you
ran into
this problem. You wouldn't know if this was the culprit or whether it
was one of
a thousand other things Pd is silently doing when you start it. You can
thank Jonathan
for saving you the work of figuring that out, as well as blame him for not
making the
indexing happen fast enough.
[bang; error list You're I'm welcome. sorry., set( | [expr $f2+2; $f2%2+1 ]x[t a] | [adddollar $1( | [s error]
[r error] | [ ( | [print error]
"
-Jonathan
-Jonathan
> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: pd-list-bounces@iem.at
[mailto:pd-list-bounces@iem.at] On
>> Behalf Of Jonathan Wilkes >> Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 11:08 PM >> To: Фывапр Олджэвич; João Pais >> Cc: pd-list@iem.at; IOhannes m zmoelnig >> Subject: Re: [PD] finding objects ? >> >> Hello serg, >> I made an attempt to build a search engine awhile
back:
>> >>
http://puredata.info/Members/jancsika/searchandbrowseplugin/view?sear
>> chterm=search%20plugin >> >> >> This plugin is designed to be exactly what you are
looking for--
I
>> know because I had the same problems when starting out
with Pd
and
>> read similarly dreadful responses. >> >> >> It is a GUI plugin. Use the links Iohannes provided to
install
it.
>> >> The plugin is designed to work with Pd-extended. (I
also
>> back-ported a version to use with Pd-l2ork but it
isn't
included
>> there yet.) It > searches for >> help patches in all the default sys and lib >> >> paths, plus any extra ones you specify in the path
dialog (though
>> this > dialog >> may have been removed in a recent version-- I don't
remember).
>> >> Full text search works with all help patches.
Searching by using
>> the > keywords >> listed toward the bottom of the main search page will
only return
>> results > for >> help patches that have keyword metadata (i.e., help
patches which
>> I've revised to be searchable, which is maybe half
of
everything in
> Pd-extended). >> >> For me full text searches tend to take a few seconds on
my
GNU/Linux
>> machine and much longer on OSX. (In Windows the first
search
takes
>> forever but subsequent searches are somewhat faster.)
I think
>> improving the speed would require building an index and
would be
a lot
more work. >> >> >> You won't get results for classes that don't
have help
patches, but
> then if the >> developer was too lazy to document what the object does
then
I'm
>> sure > they >> used all the time saved to make the object work
flawlessly... :)
>> >> Speaking of dev laziness-- there are many objects which
have
nearly
>> empty help patches. If you run into this, be sure to
try
clicking
>> the little > "info" icon >> next to the search result. It will bring up the
README.txt file
for
>> the corresponding library which often will give you a
few more
clues
>> about the object in question. You can also click the
folder icon
to
>> open an external > file >> browser to see the full contents of an external library
(like the
>> >> binaries and and other non-doc files). >> >> >> Let me know if there are any keyword categories that
would be
useful
>> to add to the main search page. >> >> >> Best, >> Jonathan >> >> >> >________________________________ >> > From: Фывапр Олджэвич tofuckof@inbox.ru >> >To: João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com >> >Cc: pd-list@iem.at; IOhannes m zmoelnig
>> >Sent: Monday, September 3, 2012 6:16 AM >> >Subject: Re: [PD] finding objects ? >> > >> > >> >Thankyou for your list ! >> > >> > >> >\ I know, although it's never actual. >> > >> >- Why ? I mean that if I don't know all the
objects by
memory, and
> I need >> some function to be done - I need easy search by
categorys and so
on
>> - with descriptions... it is much easear, than asking
List every
>> time... and also > helps >> to learn other objects faster. >> > >> >\Also the object completion plugin helps
to find
objects (pd-ext >> 0.43). >> > >> >- what is it ? is it complemented with Extended
0.43 ? or
should it
>> be > loaded >> apart ? and does it work for Windows ? >> > >> > >> >cheers ! >> > >> >serg >> > >> > >> > >> >Mon, 03 Sep 2012 11:24:09 +0200 от João Pais >> jmmmpais@googlemail.com: >> > >> > >> >> >> >>> On 2012-09-03 00:19, ?????? ????????
wrote:
>> >>>> Dear list ! >> >>>> >> >>>> Where can I find the most complete
PD-objects
and commands
>> >>>> reference, please ? >> >>> >> >>> right click on the object. >> >>> select help. >> >> >> >>for pd-vanilla, right-click anywhere in an
empty space,
and select
> help. >> >>for pd-extended, there isn't one. my list
(attached)
is the
> most complete >> >>I know, although it's never actual. the
pd-floss
website also
> has a list, >> >>but only with part of the objects in this
document.
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And why it is not on the main site -
puredata.info ?
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> because with help-patches that yre on your
computer
you do not
> have >> to >> >>> be online and you can copy&paste
interesting
stuff.
>> >> >> >>or rather more because development of
pd-extended
externals is a
> bit >> >>chaotic, some developers don't do proper
documentation, there
> isn't a >> >>system to control the quality (or existence) of
documentation,
> etc... >> >> >> >>Jonathan Wilkes has done lots of work with pddp
to update
the
>> >>documentation. Pd-Ext 0.43 has much more
ressources,
including
> better >> help >> >>patches for pd-vanilla. Also the object
completion plugin
helps to
> find >> >>objects (pd-ext 0.43). >> >> >> >> >> >>João >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>Pd-list@iem.at mailing list >> >>UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> >> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list >> >> >> >> >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Pd-list@iem.at mailing list >> >UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> >> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list >> > >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pd-list@iem.at mailing list >> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> >> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list >
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
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On 2012-09-04 22:41, Miller Puckette wrote:
Pd vanilla starts and quits in 0.2 sec total. (1.6 gHz Core 2) -- without GUI it can be done in about a millisecond (so you can use Pd in a batch process and run it thousands of times if you want :) -- I see this as an important advantage.
gui-plugins won't get loaded if Pd is running in no-gui mode, so even if the search-plugin would take ages automatically on start-up, this won't affect batch-processing.
having said that, i'm all for not building the search-index on startup. it might even be nice if the user had the choice to select (and change) the behaviour
- on startup
- whenever search-plugin is used for the first time
- never (that is, only when the user explicitely selects "rebuild
search index")
and generally it would be good if the user had the opportunity to manually (wipe and) rebuild the search-index.
gfmasdr IOhannes
Is there a way to quickly get a hash of all the doc files?
I am of the conviction that the more automated things are, the better the experience for the user. Hence, if this only adds a few seconds at the start-up (assuming it is optimized enough, perhaps relying on a secondary tool to do indexing that returns a list to tcl), I am all for that...
I'd _much_ rather have the automation happen when the user decides to click the button that opens the "Search dialog". Even better, I'd like the
New users will be totally oblivious to what this means. When a new user picks up pd (or in this case pd-l2ork, as was the case this summer with 30+ 5th-12th graders) you want things to just work. New users can understand better start-up progress bars than they can continuous hang-ups during operations, particularly if that also requires potentially confusing options that have to be activated manually. Perhaps adding an option to the preferences file to disable default behavior of indexing at startup could be a compromise between the two and if the auto-indexing is disabled, you also get the manual button for indexing appear in the browser (or wherever appropriate)...
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivica Ico Bukvic ico@vt.edu To: 'Jonathan Wilkes' jancsika@yahoo.com; 'Фывапр Олджэвич' tofuckof@inbox.ru; 'João Pais' jmmmpais@googlemail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at; 'IOhannes m zmoelnig' zmoelnig@iem.at Sent: Wednesday, September 5, 2012 5:40 PM Subject: RE: [PD] finding objects ?
Is there a way to quickly get a hash of all the doc files?
I am of the conviction that the more automated things are, the better the experience for the user. Hence, if this only adds a few seconds at the start-up (assuming it is optimized enough, perhaps relying on a secondary tool to do indexing that returns a list to tcl), I am all
for that...
I'd _much_ rather have the automation happen when the user decides to click the button that opens the "Search dialog". Even better,
I'd like the
New users will be totally oblivious to what this means.
It doesn't matter-- replace my text with your hypothetical progress bar. It's still clearly better to make the user wait and watch the progress bar _only_ when they finally do something with the search plugin than it is adding several orders of magnitude more load time to Pd for something many people may never use.
When a new user picks up pd (or in this case pd-l2ork, as was the case this summer with 30+ 5th-12th graders) you want things to just work.
Search-plugin does work && it indexes at startup: yay! Search-plugin does work && it indexes at first search (or first opening of search-plugin): yay! Search-plugin does not work && it indexes at startup: Pd sucks! Search-plugin does not work && it indexes at first search (or first opening of search-plugin): Search-plugin sucks!
Thus I conclude the proper place for the indexing is not at startup.
New users can understand better start-up progress bars than they can continuous hang-ups during operations,
If it just works then there shouldn't be any hangups. If there are hangups, with my way the new user already knows it is probably related to the search plugin and not, for example, an audio interface, midi settings, startup flags, etc.
particularly if that also requires potentially confusing options that have to be activated manually.
Well, in either case it's not necessary to have options for manual intervention. But I will not add potential headaches for users who may never even use the search-plugin. If it works, it works; if it doesn't it shouldn't affect the user unless they use the plugin.
I just went through problems with Gnome 3 trying to run a bunch of tracker-* services to index my harddrive and blowing up cpu usage, so I speak as a user when I say that I don't like that design.
-Jonathan
Perhaps adding an option to the preferences file to disable default behavior of indexing at startup could be a compromise between the two and if the auto-indexing is disabled, you also get the manual button for indexing appear in the browser (or wherever appropriate)...
New users will be totally oblivious to what this means.
It doesn't matter-- replace my text with your hypothetical progress bar. It's still clearly better to make the user wait and watch the progress bar _only_ when they finally do something with the search plugin than it is adding several orders of magnitude more load time to Pd for something many people may never use.
I am confused. I thought that the search plugin can be used both in the browser as well as when creating objects (as in auto-completion). If former, I can see your point to an extent. If latter, then I heartily disagree.
When a new user picks up pd (or in this case pd-l2ork, as was the case this summer with 30+ 5th-12th graders) you want things to just work.
Search-plugin does work && it indexes at startup: yay! Search-plugin does work && it indexes at first search (or first opening of search-plugin): yay! Search-plugin does not work && it indexes at startup: Pd sucks! Search-plugin does not work && it indexes at first search (or first opening of search-plugin): Search-plugin sucks!
Thus I conclude the proper place for the indexing is not at startup.
Again, I am lost. Why would it not work? If it is also auto-completion (which I think it should be, otherwise why go through all that trouble just to have it in a browser), then why would it not ever work?
I just went through problems with Gnome 3 trying to run a bunch of tracker-
- services to index my harddrive and blowing up cpu usage, so I speak as a
user when I say that I don't like that design.
It's all in the implementation. We're not searching the entire drive but a very limited set of folders...
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivica Ico Bukvic ico@vt.edu To: 'Jonathan Wilkes' jancsika@yahoo.com; 'Фывапр Олджэвич' tofuckof@inbox.ru; 'João Pais' jmmmpais@googlemail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at; 'IOhannes m zmoelnig' zmoelnig@iem.at Sent: Thursday, September 6, 2012 10:30 AM Subject: RE: [PD] finding objects ?
New users will be totally oblivious to what this means.
It doesn't matter-- replace my text with your hypothetical progress
bar. It's
still clearly better to make the user wait and watch the progress bar
_only_
when they finally do something with the search plugin than it is adding several orders of magnitude more load time to Pd for something many people may never use.
I am confused. I thought that the search plugin can be used both in the browser as well as when creating objects (as in auto-completion).
No, the auto-completion is a different plugin.
If former, I can see your point to an extent. If latter, then I heartily disagree.
When a new user picks up pd (or in this case pd-l2ork, as was the case this summer with 30+ 5th-12th graders) you want things to just work.
Search-plugin does work && it indexes at startup: yay! Search-plugin does work && it indexes at first search (or first
opening of
search-plugin): yay! Search-plugin does not work && it indexes at startup: Pd sucks! Search-plugin does not work && it indexes at first search (or first
opening of
search-plugin): Search-plugin sucks!
Thus I conclude the proper place for the indexing is not at startup.
Again, I am lost. Why would it not work? If it is also auto-completion (which I think it should be, otherwise why go through all that trouble just to have it in a browser), then why would it not ever work?
All I'm saying is that _if_ there are problems, having the index build at startup will hurt all users, but having it build at search time (or at the point where the user opens the search plugin) will only hurt people trying to use the search plugin.
I just went through problems with Gnome 3 trying to run a bunch of tracker-
- services to index my harddrive and blowing up cpu usage, so I speak as a
user when I say that I don't like that design.
It's all in the implementation. We're not searching the entire drive but a very limited set of folders...
Can it be done in a few milliseconds? If so then that's fine. Otherwise I'm not in favor of increasing startup time by several orders of magnitude. -Jonathan
No, the auto-completion is a different plugin.
But why? The methodology is essentially synonymous for both, no?
Can it be done in a few milliseconds? If so then that's fine. Otherwise I'm not in favor of increasing startup time by several orders of magnitude.
No idea, but that would be certainly a goal I would be striving towards...
Hi and thankyou !
\because with help-patches that yre on your computer you do not have to \be online and you can copy&paste interesting stuff.
yes, I know about help patches, but as Processing and arduino has a list of all available commands and operators on a web-site (and it is douwnloadable) - it is easear to find objects and commands, which you don't know, but need.
for example I couldn't find objects for easy rescaling, which are very usefull, but not mentioned in FLOSSmanuals and have no examples in docs...
so i had to ask the List for such an objects... finally after waiting for a half of a day - [range] and [maxlib\scale] ...
I think extended needs such thing.
cheers
Mon, 03 Sep 2012 09:09:13 +0200 от IOhannes m zmoelnig zmoelnig@iem.at:
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On 2012-09-03 00:19, ?????? ???????? wrote:
Dear list !
Where can I find the most complete PD-objects and commands
reference, please ?
right click on the object.
select help.
And why it is not on the main site - puredata.info ?
because with help-patches that yre on your computer you do not have to
be online and you can copy&paste interesting stuff.
fgmasdr
IOhannes
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
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On 03/09/12 18:11, Фывапр Олджэвич wrote:
yes, I know about help patches, but as Processing and arduino has a list of all available commands and operators on a web-site (and it is douwnloadable)
- it is easear to find objects and commands, which you don't know, but need.
everything built-in is listed with the right-click on the background, that is all that is available without installing extra stuff
everything you have installed should have help files, if the person who made them made help files and the package you used installed them
if for example you use debian packages then help files are installed and the help browser will show you what you have, and you can look up what packages are available easily in the usual debian manner ... but that is just the ones somebody has done the work to package, it is a useful subset of what is available
there cannot be a full list of everything anyone has ever made ... there cannot be a complete list of libraries available in any language
there are some efforts to try and make long lists of what is out there, these have been mentioned ... they can never be complete though they can be very useful
the number objects available 'out there' grows every day, some are useful, some may not be, this mailing list is a fairly good guide to some of that stuff
Simon
There is a difference between how to use an object/external (which is generally well documented in help files), and looking for useful objects/externals someone doesn't even know the existence... Why is pdpedia offline? if well filled and updated, it's exactly what does that job...
rr
Le 03. 09. 12 12:55, Simon Wise a écrit :
On 03/09/12 18:11, Фывапр Олджэвич wrote:
yes, I know about help patches, but as Processing and arduino has a list of all available commands and operators on a web-site (and it is douwnloadable)
- it is easear to find objects and commands, which you don't know,
but need.
everything built-in is listed with the right-click on the background, that is all that is available without installing extra stuff
everything you have installed should have help files, if the person who made them made help files and the package you used installed them
if for example you use debian packages then help files are installed and the help browser will show you what you have, and you can look up what packages are available easily in the usual debian manner ... but that is just the ones somebody has done the work to package, it is a useful subset of what is available
there cannot be a full list of everything anyone has ever made ... there cannot be a complete list of libraries available in any language
there are some efforts to try and make long lists of what is out there, these have been mentioned ... they can never be complete though they can be very useful
the number objects available 'out there' grows every day, some are useful, some may not be, this mailing list is a fairly good guide to some of that stuff
Simon
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
----- Original Message -----
From: Raphael Raccuia rafael.raccuia@blindekinder.com To: Cc: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, September 7, 2012 6:04 AM Subject: Re: [PD] finding objects ?
T here is a difference between how to use an object/external (which is generally well documented in help files), and looking for useful objects/externals someone doesn't even know the existence... Why is pdpedia offline? if well filled and updated, it's exactly what does that job...
It wasn't updated, and it wasn't "well filled".
But even my search plugin and the pd META stuff only solves half the problem. If you want to find "resonant lowpass" and the help patch only says "imaginary part" it's not going to come up in the results.
-Jonathan
rr
Le 03. 09. 12 12:55, Simon Wise a écrit :
On 03/09/12 18:11, Фывапр Олджэвич wrote:
yes, I know about help patches, but as Processing and arduino has a
list of
all available commands and operators on a web-site (and it is
douwnloadable)
- it is easear to find objects and commands, which you don't know,
but need.
everything built-in is listed with the right-click on the background, that
is all that is available without installing extra stuff
everything you have installed should have help files, if the person who
made them made help files and the package you used installed them
if for example you use debian packages then help files are installed and
the help browser will show you what you have, and you can look up what packages are available easily in the usual debian manner ... but that is just the ones somebody has done the work to package, it is a useful subset of what is available
there cannot be a full list of everything anyone has ever made ... there
cannot be a complete list of libraries available in any language
there are some efforts to try and make long lists of what is out there,
these have been mentioned ... they can never be complete though they can be very useful
the number objects available 'out there' grows every day, some are
useful, some may not be, this mailing list is a fairly good guide to some of that stuff
Simon
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Sep 7, 2012 1:42 PM, "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Raphael Raccuia rafael.raccuia@blindekinder.com To: Cc: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, September 7, 2012 6:04 AM Subject: Re: [PD] finding objects ?
T here is a difference between how to use an object/external (which is
generally
well documented in help files), and looking for useful
objects/externals someone
doesn't even know the existence... Why is pdpedia offline? if well filled and updated, it's exactly what
does
that job...
It wasn't updated, and it wasn't "well filled".
But even my search plugin and the pd META stuff only solves half the
problem. If
you want to find "resonant lowpass" and the help patch only says
"imaginary part"
it's not going to come up in the results.
And that is exactly why I think we should attack what appears to be two very related issues at the same time.
Best wishes,
Ico
-Jonathan
rr
Le 03. 09. 12 12:55, Simon Wise a écrit :
On 03/09/12 18:11, Фывапр Олджэвич wrote:
yes, I know about help patches, but as Processing and arduino has a
list of
all available commands and operators on a web-site (and it is
douwnloadable)
- it is easear to find objects and commands, which you don't know,
but need.
everything built-in is listed with the right-click on the background,
that
is all that is available without installing extra stuff
everything you have installed should have help files, if the person
who
made them made help files and the package you used installed them
if for example you use debian packages then help files are installed
and
the help browser will show you what you have, and you can look up what
packages
are available easily in the usual debian manner ... but that is just
the ones
somebody has done the work to package, it is a useful subset of what is available
there cannot be a full list of everything anyone has ever made ...
there
cannot be a complete list of libraries available in any language
there are some efforts to try and make long lists of what is out
there,
these have been mentioned ... they can never be complete though they
can be very
useful
the number objects available 'out there' grows every day, some are
useful, some may not be, this mailing list is a fairly good guide to
some of
that stuff
Simon
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
From: Ivica Bukvic ico@vt.edu To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at; Raphael Raccuia rafael.raccuia@blindekinder.com Sent: Friday, September 7, 2012 3:05 PM Subject: Re: [PD] finding objects ?
On Sep 7, 2012 1:42 PM, "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Raphael Raccuia rafael.raccuia@blindekinder.com To: Cc: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, September 7, 2012 6:04 AM Subject: Re: [PD] finding objects ?
T here is a difference between how to use an object/external (which is generally well documented in help files), and looking for useful objects/externals someone doesn't even know the existence... Why is pdpedia offline? if well filled and updated, it's exactly what does that job...
It wasn't updated, and it wasn't "well filled".
But even my search plugin and the pd META stuff only solves half the problem. If you want to find "resonant lowpass" and the help patch only says "imaginary part" it's not going to come up in the results.
And that is exactly why I think we should attack what appears to be two very related issues at the same time.
I can update vcf~ in the PDDP docs at some point, but aside from that what do you have in mind?
-Jonathan
Best wishes, Ico
-Jonathan
rr
Le 03. 09. 12 12:55, Simon Wise a écrit :
On 03/09/12 18:11, Фывапр Олджэвич wrote:
yes, I know about help patches, but as Processing and arduino has a
list of
all available commands and operators on a web-site (and it is
douwnloadable)
- it is easear to find objects and commands, which you don't know,
but need.
everything built-in is listed with the right-click on the background, that
is all that is available without installing extra stuff
everything you have installed should have help files, if the person who
made them made help files and the package you used installed them
if for example you use debian packages then help files are installed and
the help browser will show you what you have, and you can look up what packages are available easily in the usual debian manner ... but that is just the ones somebody has done the work to package, it is a useful subset of what is available
there cannot be a full list of everything anyone has ever made ... there
cannot be a complete list of libraries available in any language
there are some efforts to try and make long lists of what is out there,
these have been mentioned ... they can never be complete though they can be very useful
the number objects available 'out there' grows every day, some are
useful, some may not be, this mailing list is a fairly good guide to some of that stuff
Simon
_______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
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----- Original Message -----
From: Ivica Ico Bukvic ico@vt.edu To: 'Jonathan Wilkes' jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at; 'Raphael Raccuia' rafael.raccuia@blindekinder.com Sent: Friday, September 7, 2012 8:25 PM Subject: RE: [PD] finding objects ?
I can update vcf~ in the PDDP docs at some point, but aside from that what do you have in mind?
Multi-dimensional indexing whose data can be easily referenced by multiple features (object search, auto-completion, maybe other)
How will multiple dimensions help users find something that isn't there?
-Jonathan
I can update vcf~ in the PDDP docs at some point, but aside from that what do you have in mind?
Multi-dimensional indexing whose data can be easily referenced by multiple features (object search, auto-completion, maybe other)
How will multiple dimensions help users find something that isn't there?
exactly ... to find details of what is on your machine depends on how consistently those things you happen to have installed are documented ... and some people are making efforts to document a subset of what is available consistently, but even covering just what is in the extended archives is a huge, never ending job.
to find what is available on the www you need to rely on google or similar, this list, the wiki etc ... depending where the author has mentioned it ... and details and documentation will never be consistent, so indexing that usefully is difficult.
An effort to package a collection of useful objects in a consistent and indexed way has been happening in the debian repositories ... even if you don't use debian or one of its derivatives (even if you don't use linux) this is a useful, consistent resource with the sources, dependency information, descriptions and various interfaces and indexes for searching it, mirrored on fast mirrors all over the place, archived, built and tested (for linux) on lots of architectures and against lots of other software. That infrastructure would be impossible to maintain for Pd alone.
Simon
----- Original Message -----
From: Simon Wise simonzwise@gmail.com To: pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2012 2:04 AM Subject: Re: [PD] finding objects ?
I can update vcf~ in the PDDP docs at some point, but aside from
that what
do you have in mind?
Multi-dimensional indexing whose data can be easily referenced by
multiple
features (object search, auto-completion, maybe other)
How will multiple dimensions help users find something that isn't
there?
exactly ... to find details of what is on your machine depends on how consistently those things you happen to have installed are documented ... and some people are making efforts to document a subset of what is available consistently, but even covering just what is in the extended archives is a huge, never ending job.
to find what is available on the www you need to rely on google or similar, this list, the wiki etc ... depending where the author has mentioned it ... and details and documentation will never be consistent, so indexing that usefully is difficult.
An effort to package a collection of useful objects in a consistent and indexed way has been happening in the debian repositories ... even if you don't use debian or one of its derivatives (even if you don't use linux) this is a useful, consistent resource with the sources, dependency information, descriptions and various interfaces and indexes for searching it, mirrored on fast mirrors all over the place, archived, built and tested (for linux) on lots of architectures and against lots of other software. That infrastructure would be impossible to maintain for Pd alone.
People shouldn't have to rely on debian repositories to find objects that are sitting there on their machine.
-Jonathan
Simon
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Documentation is certainly just as important, if not more so. What I am suggesting is to build a framework that will be to some extent immediately useful, but also whose full potential well be realized only after all the documentation is properly updated.
I'm also thinking about simply getting rid of any externals in pd-l2ork that don't have proper or at least half-decent documentation. On Sep 8, 2012 1:19 AM, "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivica Ico Bukvic ico@vt.edu To: 'Jonathan Wilkes' jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at; 'Raphael Raccuia' rafael.raccuia@blindekinder.com Sent: Friday, September 7, 2012 8:25 PM Subject: RE: [PD] finding objects ?
I can update vcf~ in the PDDP docs at some point, but aside from that
what
do you have in mind?
Multi-dimensional indexing whose data can be easily referenced by
multiple
features (object search, auto-completion, maybe other)
How will multiple dimensions help users find something that isn't there?
-Jonathan
since the plugins/programs/pdwiki/whatever can't find the right object
because this isn't properly documented, why not create a group of
voluntaries that addresses the issue of a proper documentation? things
that many developers don't do, like:
- fill in the fields of xxx-meta.pd
- make sure there is a help patch for each external (maybe even following
the pddp template)
- since we're there, test the external, hopefully in several plattforms
- add some relevant meta-tags for index searching
- manage the tag list with more actualized indexes: the 0.help.list has
very few categories, some more could help a bit sort out the externals
- add some content to the "related externals" subpatch
as there aren't that many objects being release every day, it wouldn't be
that much work. I would have no problem doing this, as long as there is
some waranty that my time won't be wasted by leaving the suggestions
somewhere in a mailbox, and not commiting the patches.
that would a) release the developers of the shore of doing a good
documentation (many don't really do it), b) in the long run maybe have a
unified documentation for the whole pd-ext, c) give a model for new (and
old?) developers to prepare their material, if they want to, d) solve one
big problem with new users, the unstructured/unfriendly documentation, and
e) world peace.
João
Documentation is certainly just as important, if not more so. What I am suggesting is to build a framework that will be to some extent
immediately useful, but also whose full potential well be realized only after all the documentation is properly updated.I'm also thinking about simply getting rid of any externals in pd-l2ork that don't have proper or at least half-decent documentation. On Sep 8, 2012 1:19 AM, "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivica Ico Bukvic ico@vt.edu To: 'Jonathan Wilkes' jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at; 'Raphael Raccuia'
rafael.raccuia@blindekinder.com
Sent: Friday, September 7, 2012 8:25 PM Subject: RE: [PD] finding objects ?
I can update vcf~ in the PDDP docs at some point, but aside from
that what
do you have in mind?
Multi-dimensional indexing whose data can be easily referenced by
multiple
features (object search, auto-completion, maybe other)
How will multiple dimensions help users find something that isn't there?
-Jonathan
----- Original Message -----
From: João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com; Ivica Bukvic ico@vt.edu Cc: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [PD] finding objects ?
since the plugins/programs/pdwiki/whatever can't find the right object because this isn't properly documented, why not create a group of voluntaries that addresses the issue of a proper documentation? things that many developers don't do, like:
- fill in the fields of xxx-meta.pd
- make sure there is a help patch for each external (maybe even following the
pddp template)
- since we're there, test the external, hopefully in several plattforms
- add some relevant meta-tags for index searching
- manage the tag list with more actualized indexes: the 0.help.list has very few
categories, some more could help a bit sort out the externals
- add some content to the "related externals" subpatch
as there aren't that many objects being release every day, it wouldn't be that much work.
There's probably a script that can be written to count the number of help patches that still need META subpatches. I have the feeling it's something like 1500 or so.
I would have no problem doing this, as long as there is some waranty that my time won't be wasted by leaving the suggestions somewhere in a mailbox, and not commiting the patches.
That's ultimately decided by the author of the library. You have to contact each one and ask if you can add those changes. For some authors it's trivial. For others, like Miller, a separate location for the updated help had to be created because indeed the suggestions just sit in a mailbox somewhere otherwise.
that would a) release the developers of the shore of doing a good documentation (many don't really do it),
I think it'd be a better idea to assume that undocumented objects are either under current development or are crap-- either way, they shouldn't be included in a release of Pd. In most cases a minimal example patch and a few sentences (or even single words) to describe the xlet/object function is all that is needed. If the developer couldn't be bothered to do that, what else couldn't he/she be bothered to do in the code that runs on your machine and can potential crash your patch?
b) in the long run maybe have a unified documentation for the whole pd-ext,
Without automated templates like matju's Gridflow documentation system this is just too much work.
c) give a model for new (and old?) developers to prepare their material, if they want to,
See above.
d) solve one big problem with new users, the unstructured/unfriendly documentation, and e) world peace.
Unstructured docs are fine if they a) exist and b) are discoverable.
-Jonathan
João
Documentation is certainly just as important, if not more so. What I am suggesting is to build a framework that will be to some extent immediately useful, but also whose full potential well be realized only after all the documentation is properly updated.
I'm also thinking about simply getting rid of any externals in pd-l2ork that don't have proper or at least half-decent documentation. On Sep 8, 2012 1:19 AM, "Jonathan Wilkes"
jancsika@yahoo.com wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivica Ico Bukvic ico@vt.edu To: 'Jonathan Wilkes' jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at; 'Raphael Raccuia'
rafael.raccuia@blindekinder.com
Sent: Friday, September 7, 2012 8:25 PM Subject: RE: [PD] finding objects ?
I can update vcf~ in the PDDP docs at some point, but aside
from that
what
do you have in mind?
Multi-dimensional indexing whose data can be easily referenced by
multiple
features (object search, auto-completion, maybe other)
How will multiple dimensions help users find something that isn't
there?
-Jonathan
--Friedenstr. 58 10249 Berlin (Deutschland) Tel +49 30 42020091 | Mob +49 162 6843570 Studio +49 30 69509190 jmmmpais@googlemail.com | skype: jmmmpjmmmp
as there aren't that many objects being release every day, it wouldn't be that much work.
There's probably a script that can be written to count the number of help patches that still need META subpatches. I have the feeling it's
something like 1500 or so.
I would guess something like that, yes. hopefully more every day.
I would have no problem doing this, as long as there is some waranty that my time won't be wasted by leaving the suggestions
somewhere in a mailbox, and not commiting the patches.That's ultimately decided by the author of the library. You have to
contact each one and ask if you can add those changes. For some authors it's trivial.
For others, like Miller, a separate location for the updated help had to be created
because indeed the suggestions just sit in a mailbox somewhere otherwise.
if a line saying something like "if you don't create a documentation, one
will be created for you." is added to the commit guideline, everyone will
agree to it automatically.
I guess someone that commits code wants it to be used. This will help
him/her making sure that the code is seen by other users.
that would a) release the developers of the shore of doing a good
documentation (many don't really do it),I think it'd be a better idea to assume that undocumented objects are
either under current development or are crap-- either way, they shouldn't be included
in a release of Pd. In most cases a minimal example patch and a few sentences (or
even single words) to describe the xlet/object function is all that is needed. If
the developer couldn't be bothered to do that, what else couldn't he/she be bothered to do in
the code that runs on your machine and can potential crash your patch?
I also agree with that. Therefore the need to have a way of making sure
that the existance of a complete documentation for each library is
controlled is important. I would even say that all externals which aren't
completely documented (like mine, I haven't filled the jmmmp-meta.pd patch
yet) could be stored in a /undocumented folder, that stays put at svn and
doesn't build with the package.
Thing is, is there a way to do that control/purge automatically? The
xxx-help patches can exist as files, but without opening them it's not
possible to see if they're complete (and if the externals work). If not,
it's necessary that a control method with enough intelligence goes through
the libraries - I can only think of a user opening the patches and trying
them out.
b) in the long run maybe have a unified documentation for the whole pd-ext,
Without automated templates like matju's Gridflow documentation system
this is just too much work.
it is for the x000 objects that are already there. once we go through that
(with no rush), there will be less missing. new objects don't come in that
often.
with testing an external I meant opening the documentation, check for
content, put some input in the external and see if the output makes some
sense. slowly, one can go library through library.
c) give a model for new (and old?) developers to prepare their material, if they want to,
See above.
d) solve one big problem with new users, the unstructured/unfriendly documentation, and e) world
peace.Unstructured docs are fine if they a) exist and b) are discoverable.
then pd-ext is perfect the way it is now. everything exists, and is
discoverable, if you look for it.
one tiny detail is that no one really knows which objects exist, because
there is no central list (the more complete is my own hand-made
copy-pasted xls file).
but resuming, I would support a method where a library doesn't get
commited unless is documented (including pd-meta patches, a textfile with
a list of objects and function[?], and whatnot). that will take around
lots of externals in the next build, but hopefully they'll come back soon
enough.
-
IOhannes m zmoelnig -
Ivica Bukvic -
Ivica Ico Bukvic
-
Jonathan Wilkes -
João Pais -
Miller Puckette -
Raphael Raccuia -
Simon Wise -
Фывапр Олджэвич