just curious but is it normal netiquette on the Pd list to hi-jack other people's threads?
also, I find it odd that many people on the list were more interested in adding to the debate defining the term 'professional' (in posts titled -> Subject: Re: plugin~ external) rather than adding to the problem of [plugin~] not working properly
not criticizing - just an observation
the reason I'm devoting a lot of my energy to figuring out the [plugin~] external is because I'm editing the LADSPA chapter in the FOSS Pd manual online -->
http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/UsingLADSPAplugins
and I want to make sure the text is a) true and b) easily understood by a n00b
That 'pro' thread should have retitled been retitled for sure.
Occasionally there are little outbreaks like that, but mostly I think
its quite civil around here. I think we could be more newbie
friendly. I've heard that this list intimidates most newbies, which
is not a good thing, IMHO.
.hc
On Jun 14, 2010, at 1:35 PM, Kim Cascone wrote:
just curious but is it normal netiquette on the Pd list to hi-jack
other people's threads?also, I find it odd that many people on the list were more
interested in adding to the debate defining the term
'professional' (in posts titled -> Subject: Re: plugin~ external)
rather than adding to the problem of [plugin~] not working properlynot criticizing - just an observation
the reason I'm devoting a lot of my energy to figuring out the
[plugin~] external is because I'm editing the LADSPA chapter in the
FOSS Pd manual online -->http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/UsingLADSPAplugins
and I want to make sure the text is a) true and b) easily understood
by a n00b
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
"Free software means you control what your computer does. Non-free
software means someone else controls that, and to some extent controls
you." - Richard M. Stallman
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
That 'pro' thread should have retitled been retitled for sure.
Occasionally there are little outbreaks like that, but mostly I think its quite civil around here. I think we could be more newbie friendly. I've heard that this list intimidates most newbies, which is not a good thing, IMHO.
right -- I understand there is some emotional baggage with old-timers in a community I have run the .microsound list for ten years now and know the drill! ;)
also, let me say that although I might be a n00b to Pd I do come from the Max/MSP community (much less anarchic) and have 10+ years working with Max/MSP here's some info on me for anyone that's interested: http://cycling74.com/2005/09/13/an-interview-with-kim-cascone/ http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/08/04/linux-music-workflow-switching-from...
.hc
On Jun 14, 2010, at 1:35 PM, Kim Cascone wrote:
just curious but is it normal netiquette on the Pd list to hi-jack other people's threads?
also, I find it odd that many people on the list were more interested in adding to the debate defining the term 'professional' (in posts titled -> Subject: Re: plugin~ external) rather than adding to the problem of [plugin~] not working properly
not criticizing - just an observation
the reason I'm devoting a lot of my energy to figuring out the [plugin~] external is because I'm editing the LADSPA chapter in the FOSS Pd manual online -->
http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/UsingLADSPAplugins
and I want to make sure the text is a) true and b) easily understood by a n00b
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
"Free software means you control what your computer does. Non-free software means someone else controls that, and to some extent controls you." - Richard M. Stallman
ola,
right -- I understand there is some emotional baggage with old-timers in a community
i'm sorry to say there's nothing emotional here...
just pointing out what doesn't work, particularly people wanting to take over doesn't mean we want to fix it at all...
i don't, ciao,
sevy
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010, Kim Cascone wrote:
also, let me say that although I might be a n00b to Pd I do come from the Max/MSP community (much less anarchic) and have 10+ years working with Max/MSP here's some info on me for anyone that's interested:
You know that there's already a pd patch named after you ?
http://gridflow.ca/svn/trunk/examples/postdigital.pd
or go in Help -> GridFlow Examples and click "postdigital.pd".
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010, Kim Cascone wrote:
also, let me say that although I might be a n00b to Pd I do come from the Max/MSP community (much less anarchic) and have 10+ years working with Max/MSP here's some info on me for anyone that's interested:
You know that there's already a pd patch named after you ?
http://gridflow.ca/svn/trunk/examples/postdigital.pd
or go in Help -> GridFlow Examples and click "postdigital.pd".
<blush> I'm honored sir! :) </blush>
On Jun 14, 2010, at 8:18 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
That 'pro' thread should have retitled been retitled for sure. Occasionally there are little outbreaks like that, but mostly I think its quite civil around here. I think we could be more newbie friendly. I've heard that this list intimidates most newbies, which is not a good thing, IMHO.
.hc
Yeah, OT threads should be retitled immediately so as not to lose the initial discussion. It's annoying to skim the list digests when the subject lines don't match the content.
On Jun 14, 2010, at 1:35 PM, Kim Cascone wrote:
the reason I'm devoting a lot of my energy to figuring out the [plugin~] external is because I'm editing the LADSPA chapter in the FOSS Pd manual online -->
http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/UsingLADSPAplugins
and I want to make sure the text is a) true and b) easily understood by a n00b
This is where I think things should always go ... to the wiki or the Floss manual! If a solution is found, pleasepleaseplease post it to a standard place and then *everyone* can benefit and we don't get the same questions every 6 months. Not everyone knows to search the mailing list. This is why I suggested a few weeks ago that we should look into building out "knowledge" base in a more centralized way because there are too many disparate elements ... I think newbies don't know where to look.
Dan Wilcox danomatika.com robotcowboy.com
Dan Wilcox wrote:
and I want to make sure the text is a) true and b) easily understood by a n00b
This is where I think things should always go ... to the wiki or the Floss manual! If a solution is found, pleasepleaseplease post it to a standard place and then *everyone* can benefit and we don't get the same questions every 6 months.
that's exactly what I'm trying to do here :)
and given that most, if not all, Linux audio apps can host a LADSPA/DSSI/LV2 plugin circa 2010 I see no reason why Pd shouldn't also be able to host one without 1337 secret handshakes, compiling src, chasing down deps, and other distractions to someone wanting to simply and easily host a plugin to do some audio processing
mind you these 'l337 handshake' solutions are sometimes necessary when solving a Linux audio problem but should not be a 0th order approach to trying to use Pd in a production environment
also, keep in mind I'm coming at Pd from 10 years of Max/MSP usage where the community is much less anarchic and doesn't share the political framework of being a FOSS app - which makes things less flexible at times but also imposes a certain standard, from the top down, on how things should work
Not everyone knows to search the mailing list. This is why I suggested a few weeks ago that we should look into building out "knowledge" base in a more centralized way because there are too many disparate elements ... I think newbies don't know where to look.
given the variety of conflicting info I've been given over the past week about how the [plugin~] object 'should work (or why it doesn't) I'd have to say that even the 'experts' don't know where to look sometimes
it should NOT take anyone (even a Pd n00b) the better part of a week to figure out a) why sending [info] to a [plugin~] won't always give her the correct info using what they believe to be the standard Pd [print] external and b) that using [symbol:name being the name of the port] in [plugin~] doesn't work globally for all LADSPA plugs hosted by [plugin~] and that symbol:#n_of_ctrl_port does - at least in the ones I've tested so far
On Jun 14, 2010, at 9:22 PM, Kim Cascone wrote:
Dan Wilcox wrote:
and I want to make sure the text is a) true and b) easily understood by a n00b
This is where I think things should always go ... to the wiki or the Floss manual! If a solution is found, pleasepleaseplease post it to a standard place and then *everyone* can benefit and we don't get the same questions every 6 months.
that's exactly what I'm trying to do here :)
Yes thanks! Sorry if I seemed to be addressing you in particular, my statement was more for us in general.
and given that most, if not all, Linux audio apps can host a LADSPA/DSSI/LV2 plugin circa 2010 I see no reason why Pd shouldn't also be able to host one without 1337 secret handshakes, compiling src, chasing down deps, and other distractions to someone wanting to simply and easily host a plugin to do some audio processing
mind you these 'l337 handshake' solutions are sometimes necessary when solving a Linux audio problem but should not be a 0th order approach to trying to use Pd in a production environment
Yes, 1337 handshakes are no real solutions for sure, but as the community is more disorganized then say the Max community, it's not suprising that these little bits if info get lost.
Dan Wilcox danomatika.com robotcowboy.com
Dan Wilcox wrote:
On Jun 14, 2010, at 9:22 PM, Kim Cascone wrote:
Dan Wilcox wrote:
and I want to make sure the text is a) true and b) easily understood by a n00b
This is where I think things should always go ... to the wiki or the Floss manual! If a solution is found, pleasepleaseplease post it to a standard place and then *everyone* can benefit and we don't get the same questions every 6 months.
that's exactly what I'm trying to do here :)
Yes thanks! Sorry if I seemed to be addressing you in particular, my statement was more for us in general.
no worries -- I was just letting you know that I'm trying to make some info clear to others and not trying to be a pain in the culo! ;)
and given that most, if not all, Linux audio apps can host a LADSPA/DSSI/LV2 plugin circa 2010 I see no reason why Pd shouldn't also be able to host one without 1337 secret handshakes, compiling src, chasing down deps, and other distractions to someone wanting to simply and easily host a plugin to do some audio processing
mind you these 'l337 handshake' solutions are sometimes necessary when solving a Linux audio problem but should not be a 0th order approach to trying to use Pd in a production environment
Yes, 1337 handshakes are no real solutions for sure, but as the community is more disorganized then say the Max community, it's not suprising that these little bits if info get lost.
and why I'm trying to do a little work for the community since I'm new here
not only because I'd like to use the [plugin~] external but because I feel others should also have the pleasure of using it! :)
On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 9:22 PM, Kim Cascone kim@anechoicmedia.com wrote:
Dan Wilcox wrote:
and I want to make sure the text is a) true and b) easily understood by a
n00b
This is where I think things should always go ... to the wiki or the Floss manual! If a solution is found, pleasepleaseplease post it to a standard place and then *everyone* can benefit and we don't get the same questions every 6 months.
that's exactly what I'm trying to do here :)
and given that most, if not all, Linux audio apps can host a LADSPA/DSSI/LV2 plugin circa 2010 I see no reason why Pd shouldn't also be able to host one without 1337 secret handshakes, compiling src, chasing down deps, and other distractions to someone wanting to simply and easily host a plugin to do some audio processing
mind you these 'l337 handshake' solutions are sometimes necessary when solving a Linux audio problem but should not be a 0th order approach to trying to use Pd in a production environment
also, keep in mind I'm coming at Pd from 10 years of Max/MSP usage where the community is much less anarchic and doesn't share the political framework of being a FOSS app - which makes things less flexible at times but also imposes a certain standard, from the top down, on how things should work [...]
Guys, you are amazing, you are hijacking the thread AGAIN!
The practical effect why it sucks for me is that i archive informative threads in gmail and this way i have to archive a messed up thread to have the tiny bit of information (on how [plugin~] works) somewhere among the 1337 mails.
If i might comment a bit longer on the 'vibe' of this mailing list this one time (and this list is not exactly the same as 'the Pd community'), yes i was shocked a bit too at the first time... it seemed not so friendly, some people seemed not to pay enough attention to what others wrote, and some people seemed to carry on a partly educative, partly aggressive tone which i particularly don't like.
After some time it just seems to me like most other 'communities', and my own family and my own friends are not exceptions; it is a group of individuals with all their different past and present lives and 'heavy childhoods' and as a functional group they are not the most effective, but you can learn a lot from them and even have good fun if you take it easy (but not too easy).
One of the most interesting things going on lately has been the development of social groups and virtual groups, and the development of free softwares' user groups is definitely something very interesting, and, i would say, something that has very a brief past compared to how long and bold it's future i expect to be. Simply put, free software development has a *lot* of experimentation to do concerning organization, decision making, etc - it's a long way to go!
(All this said, i fully understand those who are unsatisfied by the current ways, and i also fully understand those who are maintaining those current ways, also those who challenge them, i just don't really understand when people are inpatient, arrogant, or pointlessly negative. My 2 cents is: be nicer to each others guys and don't drink&post...)
Andras
On Jun 14, 2010, at 10:03 PM, András Murányi wrote:
Guys, you are amazing, you are hijacking the thread AGAIN!
The practical effect why it sucks for me is that i archive informative threads in gmail and this way i have to archive a messed up thread to have the tiny bit of information (on how [plugin~] works) somewhere among the 1337 mails.
Actually, I renamed the subject line in my first reply, then removed the plugin~ reference later on ... is this hijacking? We already mentioned the fact that the subject line should have been changed earlier on.
Dan Wilcox danomatika.com robotcowboy.com
2010/6/15 Dan Wilcox danomatika@gmail.com
On Jun 14, 2010, at 10:03 PM, András Murányi wrote:
Guys, you are amazing, you are hijacking the thread AGAIN!
The practical effect why it sucks for me is that i archive informative threads in gmail and this way i have to archive a messed up thread to have the tiny bit of information (on how [plugin~] works) somewhere among the 1337 mails.
Actually, I renamed the subject line in my first reply, then removed the plugin~ reference later on ... is this hijacking? We already mentioned the fact that the subject line should have been changed earlier on.
Dan Wilcox danomatika.com robotcowboy.com
This is what i meant by hijacking again (the subject "list etiquette WAS: plugin~ external")
and given that most, if not all, Linux audio apps can host a LADSPA/DSSI/LV2
plugin circa 2010 I see no reason why Pd shouldn't also be able to host one without 1337 secret handshakes, compiling src, chasing down deps, and other distractions to someone wanting to simply and easily host a plugin to do some audio processing
mind you these 'l337 handshake' solutions are sometimes necessary when solving a Linux audio problem but should not be a 0th order approach to trying to use Pd in a production environment
but never mind, i'm really not into busting other people, i just found it funny that it was happening again... peace, love & happiness!
Andras
peace, love & happiness!
Yea! :)
To be honest I find the Pd list one of the most open helpful and fun I'm on
On other lists I've been involved in huge flames on html, mutt and language-style.. and that *is* boring... As for 'newbie-friendliness' I consider my-self to always be learning and a 'newbie' on something (especially in the FLOSS world!) I find most people on here (even the 'pros') very welcoming and firendly.
Lorenzo
Andras
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Jun 14, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Kim Cascone wrote:
Dan Wilcox wrote:
and I want to make sure the text is a) true and b) easily
understood by a n00bThis is where I think things should always go ... to the wiki or
the Floss manual! If a solution is found, pleasepleaseplease post
it to a standard place and then *everyone* can benefit and we don't
get the same questions every 6 months.that's exactly what I'm trying to do here :)
and given that most, if not all, Linux audio apps can host a LADSPA/ DSSI/LV2 plugin circa 2010 I see no reason why Pd shouldn't also be
able to host one without 1337 secret handshakes, compiling src,
chasing down deps, and other distractions to someone wanting to
simply and easily host a plugin to do some audio processingmind you these 'l337 handshake' solutions are sometimes necessary
when solving a Linux audio problem but should not be a 0th order
approach to trying to use Pd in a production environmentalso, keep in mind I'm coming at Pd from 10 years of Max/MSP usage
where the community is much less anarchic and doesn't share the
political framework of being a FOSS app - which makes things less
flexible at times but also imposes a certain standard, from the top
down, on how things should workNot everyone knows to search the mailing list. This is why I
suggested a few weeks ago that we should look into building out
"knowledge" base in a more centralized way because there are too
many disparate elements ... I think newbies don't know where to look.given the variety of conflicting info I've been given over the past
week about how the [plugin~] object 'should work (or why it
doesn't) I'd have to say that even the 'experts' don't know where to
look sometimesit should NOT take anyone (even a Pd n00b) the better part of a week
to figure out a) why sending [info] to a [plugin~] won't always give her the
correct info using what they believe to be the standard Pd [print]
external and b) that using [symbol:name being the name of the port] in
[plugin~] doesn't work globally for all LADSPA plugs hosted by
[plugin~] and that symbol:#n_of_ctrl_port does - at least in the
ones I've tested so far
Hey Kim,
Switching back to that topic ;) From my point of view Pd-extended is
a giant thing. There are many things that could be done to improve
it. Since you put a lot of effort into testing the plugin~ stuff,
then its worth it to me to put effort into making sure the whole thing
is smoothly integrated into Pd-extended. That's my two bits...
.hc
Using ReBirth is like trying to play an 808 with a long stick. - David Zicarelli
On 2010-06-14 21:22, Kim Cascone wrote:
it should NOT take anyone (even a Pd n00b) the better part of a week to figure out and b) that using [symbol:name being the name of the port] in [plugin~] doesn't work globally for all LADSPA plugs hosted by [plugin~] and that symbol:#n_of_ctrl_port does - at least in the ones I've tested so far
it does work globally for all LADSPA plugins hosted by [plugin~].
i have to say that you were using it wrongly (though i cannot find the email were you explained exactly what you were doing: all threads are totally messed up; the subject became meaningless;...)
in short it was something like: info gave you something like the following
<snip> info: port out audio Out 0 1 info: port in control Trigger 0 1 info: port in control Velocity 0 10 info: port in control Frequency (Hz) 0 20000 info: port in control Resonance 0.001 1 info: port in control Frequency Ratio 0 10 </snip>
and you tried to access (say) the "Frequency Ratio". you tried (without success) to use things like "frequencyratio" and "frequency_ratio".
this does not work. the control name will be matched against all port-names and the first with an exact match (case-insensitive; only the number of characters given will be checked) will be used.
the _only_ freedom you have, is case-insensivity and number-of-characters (as long as it uniquely identifies the parameter you want to address); you cannot exchange characters at will (neither can you replace "X" with "U" nor " " with "_")
so "Trigger" match the first control port (as well as "T" and "trigger") "Frequency" (and "f", "freq",...) will match "Frequency (Hz)" (since this will be found before "Frequency Ratio"..
if you want to access "Frequency Ratio" than you have to use something that matches this name until it becomes unique (that is: up to "Frequency R", to differentiate it from "Frequency (") since all characters must match exactly (apart from the case) you have to construct a symbol with a space in it. again, there is no use replacing the space with "_" or "X" or "space" or nothing at all.
it might be a good idea to allow underscores as well, but so far nobody has asked for it. also, i think that this is probably not so important, as you can just reuse the symbol you got out of [plugin~].
anyhow, personally i don't think that the info-interface of [plugin~] is particularily cleverly done.
i never used this object before. i only made it not crash any more. i probably will never use it again. i don't think that using all those VST/LV2/runzelpunzel plugins out there will make anything more professional.
fmgasdf IOhannes
On 2010-06-14 19:35, Kim Cascone wrote:
just curious but is it normal netiquette on the Pd list to hi-jack other people's threads?
http://puredata.info/community/lists/Netiquette
and it's common practice (thow frowned upon by me :-)) to hijack threads, that's why i often post the above link.
fgmasdr IOhannes
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Hans-Christoph Steiner -
IOhannes m zmoelnig -
Kim Cascone -
Lorenzo -
Mathieu Bouchard -
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