Hello guys. I've been dreaming about an object that would display musical notation and output data (like midi numbers for instance). I found a discutions about something like that here in our list ( http://www.mail-archive.com/pd-list@iem.at/msg19969.html) but this was a discussion about creating live musical notation for performance, and what I have in mind is something more like a Computer Assisted Composition/Research tool. If i'm not mistaken Open Music and PWGL (http://www2.siba.fi/PWGL/) already have something like this. Look at the images I made of how this object would look like:
- The input would be a message with the midi number of the pitch, and the
object would display a Treble or Bass cleff with the note and output the number of the pitch through the outlet (cleff_pd_01.png).
- It would be possible to alterate the pitch by holding and dragging the
mouse (cleff_pd_02.png)
- Chords could be made... (cleff_pd_03.png)
- or melodies... (cleff_pd_04.png)
- or even sequences of chords. (cleff_pd_05.png)
The output could easily be transformed into notation for lilypond, for instance (like Collin Oldham did in that thread I mentioned).
Do you think it's possible to do something like that? At the moment I don't have the money to pay a programmer to do that (I would happily do it if I could). Maybe I can learn how to do this, but I don't know where to start. I already see some complications to build this object:
- it would have to stretch itself so the chords and melodies would fit;
- It would have to decide what cleff to use (or maybe not, the user could
send a message like [treble<);
- There should have a way to choose between flat and sharp;
- A nice thing would be to have more than one staff at once, like a piano
staff for instance, and so on...
For now I'm just wondering if something like this could be done. I've been doing some calculations of composition techniques using Pd and I miss musical notation so much.
Bye! Caio Barros
Bonus: I made an abstraction to transform midi note to pitch name and also frequency as a part of a bunch of composition tools I use. (and after I read those threads about creating the notation object in GEM I discovered that some people already did it, but here it go anyway). see midi_note.pd
Oi Caio,
someone posted a new object in development in the pd-dev list last month.
This can be quite good, and if I remember correctly, it allows musicxml,
and works on all platforms -
http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-dev/2010-10/016136.html.
I guess anyone with the knowledge can adapt pwgl displays to pd, but it
might also pay up to help the project I mentioned.
João Pais
Hello guys. I've been dreaming about an object that would display musical notation
and output data (like midi numbers for instance). I found a discutions about something like that here in our list ( http://www.mail-archive.com/pd-list@iem.at/msg19969.html) but this was a discussion about creating live musical notation for performance, and
what I have in mind is something more like a Computer Assisted
Composition/Research tool. If i'm not mistaken Open Music and PWGL (http://www2.siba.fi/PWGL/) already have something like this. Look at the images I made of how this object would look like:
- The input would be a message with the midi number of the pitch, and the
object would display a Treble or Bass cleff with the note and output the number of the pitch through the outlet (cleff_pd_01.png).
- It would be possible to alterate the pitch by holding and dragging the
mouse (cleff_pd_02.png)
- Chords could be made... (cleff_pd_03.png)
- or melodies... (cleff_pd_04.png)
- or even sequences of chords. (cleff_pd_05.png)
The output could easily be transformed into notation for lilypond, for instance (like Collin Oldham did in that thread I mentioned).
Do you think it's possible to do something like that? At the moment I
don't have the money to pay a programmer to do that (I would happily do it if I could). Maybe I can learn how to do this, but I don't know where to
start. I already see some complications to build this object:
- it would have to stretch itself so the chords and melodies would fit;
- It would have to decide what cleff to use (or maybe not, the user could
send a message like [treble<);
- There should have a way to choose between flat and sharp;
- A nice thing would be to have more than one staff at once, like a piano
staff for instance, and so on...
For now I'm just wondering if something like this could be done. I've
been doing some calculations of composition techniques using Pd and I miss musical notation so much.Bye! Caio Barros
Bonus: I made an abstraction to transform midi note to pitch name and
also frequency as a part of a bunch of composition tools I use. (and after I
read those threads about creating the notation object in GEM I discovered that some people already did it, but here it go anyway). see midi_note.pd
Marcus Bittencourt did some work in this direction: http://www.rem.ufpr.br/_REM/REMv11/13/13-bittencourt-puredata.html
do you have his contact? for some reason, brasilian universities don't
have the contact of their teachers on their pages.
http://maringa.academia.edu/MarcusAlessiBittencourt
Marcus Bittencourt did some work in this direction: http://www.rem.ufpr.br/_REM/REMv11/13/13-bittencourt-puredata.html
This is an interesting topic... but just to give you another direction/point of view, as I'm not sure exactly what your final aim is. You can hook up any jack-aware program that does notation to Pd via midi (for e.g. Rosegarden or even MuseScore) this, can be both ways (Pd could send midi data to these programs, for example to do the algorithmic "assisted composition" stuff). Not sure if anything of this makes sense to you.
Lorenzo
Caio Barros wrote:
Hello guys. I've been dreaming about an object that would display musical notation and output data (like midi numbers for instance). I found a discutions about something like that here in our list (http://www.mail-archive.com/pd-list@iem.at/msg19969.html) but this was a discussion about creating live musical notation for performance, and what I have in mind is something more like a Computer Assisted CompoResearch tool. If i'm not mistaken Open Music and PWGL (http://www2.siba.fi/PWGL/) already have something like this. Look at the images I made of how this object would look like:
- The input would be a message with the midi number of the pitch, and
the object would display a Treble or Bass cleff with the note and output the number of the pitch through the outlet (cleff_pd_01.png).
- It would be possible to alterate the pitch by holding and dragging
the mouse (cleff_pd_02.png)
- Chords could be made... (cleff_pd_03.png)
- or melodies... (cleff_pd_04.png)
- or even sequences of chords. (cleff_pd_05.png)
The output could easily be transformed into notation for lilypond, for instance (like Collin Oldham did in that thread I mentioned).
Do you think it's possible to do something like that? At the moment I don't have the money to pay a programmer to do that (I would happily do it if I could). Maybe I can learn how to do this, but I don't know where to start. I already see some complications to build this object:
- it would have to stretch itself so the chords and melodies would fit;
- It would have to decide what cleff to use (or maybe not, the user
could send a message like [treble<);
- There should have a way to choose between flat and sharp;
- A nice thing would be to have more than one staff at once, like a
piano staff for instance, and so on...
For now I'm just wondering if something like this could be done. I've been doing some calculations of composition techniques using Pd and I miss musical notation so much.
Bye! Caio Barros
Bonus: I made an abstraction to transform midi note to pitch name and also frequency as a part of a bunch of composition tools I use. (and after I read those threads about creating the notation object in GEM I discovered that some people already did it, but here it go anyway). see midi_note.pd
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
João: what you are saing sounds good, but in that discussion I could hardly see how that object works.
Bernardo: That looks awesome and is almost in the same direction I had in mind (I was definetly thinking in CAC programms) too bad article doesn't have a download link, I wonder if that program can output data besides taking it and transforming into notation.
Lorenzo: that makes sense but I don't know how to do it, this can be of great great help but I still think that an object inside Pd would be much more confortable. Like Marcus Bittencourt say in the article, the idea would be to incorporate some CAC tools into Pd and ultimately make a free, open-source tool for both things.
I could make those calculations i'm doing using another program (at the end it's all just numbers) but, first, the program I know best is Pd, and second, I like to use a tool made for music to do musical calculations. In my oppining the thing is that this kind of interface is much more human friendly (at least musicianship friendly) and makes the interaction more fun and visualization of the problems easier.
Just to put it in a context, what i'm doing right now is buiding a patch to calculate the harmonic nets (or harmonic networks, I don't know what is the best translation), a composition technique created by the belgian composer Henri Pousseur. At the moment this patch is too much crude for me to share it, besides being writen in portuguese, my native language. When it is more presentable I'll show it, but i'm very happy with the results so far.
Caio Barros
2010/11/4 Lorenzo Sutton lsutton@libero.it
This is an interesting topic... but just to give you another direction/point of view, as I'm not sure exactly what your final aim is. You can hook up any jack-aware program that does notation to Pd via midi (for e.g. Rosegarden or even MuseScore) this, can be both ways (Pd could send midi data to these programs, for example to do the algorithmic "assisted composition" stuff). Not sure if anything of this makes sense to you.
Lorenzo
Caio Barros wrote:
Hello guys. I've been dreaming about an object that would display musical notation and output data (like midi numbers for instance). I found a discutions about something like that here in our list ( http://www.mail-archive.com/pd-list@iem.at/msg19969.html) but this was a discussion about creating live musical notation for performance, and what I have in mind is something more like a Computer Assisted CompoResearch tool. If i'm not mistaken Open Music and PWGL (http://www2.siba.fi/PWGL/) already have something like this.
Look at the images I made of how this object would look like:
- The input would be a message with the midi number of the pitch, and the
object would display a Treble or Bass cleff with the note and output the number of the pitch through the outlet (cleff_pd_01.png).
- It would be possible to alterate the pitch by holding and dragging the
mouse (cleff_pd_02.png)
- Chords could be made... (cleff_pd_03.png)
- or melodies... (cleff_pd_04.png)
- or even sequences of chords. (cleff_pd_05.png)
The output could easily be transformed into notation for lilypond, for instance (like Collin Oldham did in that thread I mentioned).
Do you think it's possible to do something like that? At the moment I don't have the money to pay a programmer to do that (I would happily do it if I could). Maybe I can learn how to do this, but I don't know where to start. I already see some complications to build this object:
- it would have to stretch itself so the chords and melodies would fit;
- It would have to decide what cleff to use (or maybe not, the user could
send a message like [treble<);
- There should have a way to choose between flat and sharp;
- A nice thing would be to have more than one staff at once, like a piano
staff for instance, and so on...
For now I'm just wondering if something like this could be done. I've been doing some calculations of composition techniques using Pd and I miss musical notation so much.
Bye! Caio Barros
Bonus: I made an abstraction to transform midi note to pitch name and also frequency as a part of a bunch of composition tools I use. (and after I read those threads about creating the notation object in GEM I discovered that some people already did it, but here it go anyway). see midi_note.pd
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
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Oh yes, and another thing is that I want eventualy to use microtonal intervals too. I believe that using those programs as a midi interface doesn't work for that, am I right?
2010/11/5 Caio Barros caio.barros@gmail.com
João: what you are saing sounds good, but in that discussion I could hardly see how that object works.
Bernardo: That looks awesome and is almost in the same direction I had in mind (I was definetly thinking in CAC programms) too bad article doesn't have a download link, I wonder if that program can output data besides taking it and transforming into notation.
Lorenzo: that makes sense but I don't know how to do it, this can be of great great help but I still think that an object inside Pd would be much more confortable. Like Marcus Bittencourt say in the article, the idea would be to incorporate some CAC tools into Pd and ultimately make a free, open-source tool for both things.
I could make those calculations i'm doing using another program (at the end it's all just numbers) but, first, the program I know best is Pd, and second, I like to use a tool made for music to do musical calculations. In my oppining the thing is that this kind of interface is much more human friendly (at least musicianship friendly) and makes the interaction more fun and visualization of the problems easier.
Just to put it in a context, what i'm doing right now is buiding a patch to calculate the harmonic nets (or harmonic networks, I don't know what is the best translation), a composition technique created by the belgian composer Henri Pousseur. At the moment this patch is too much crude for me to share it, besides being writen in portuguese, my native language. When it is more presentable I'll show it, but i'm very happy with the results so far.
Caio Barros
2010/11/4 Lorenzo Sutton lsutton@libero.it
This is an interesting topic... but just to give you another
direction/point of view, as I'm not sure exactly what your final aim is. You can hook up any jack-aware program that does notation to Pd via midi (for e.g. Rosegarden or even MuseScore) this, can be both ways (Pd could send midi data to these programs, for example to do the algorithmic "assisted composition" stuff). Not sure if anything of this makes sense to you.
Lorenzo
Caio Barros wrote:
Hello guys. I've been dreaming about an object that would display musical notation and output data (like midi numbers for instance). I found a discutions about something like that here in our list ( http://www.mail-archive.com/pd-list@iem.at/msg19969.html) but this was a discussion about creating live musical notation for performance, and what I have in mind is something more like a Computer Assisted CompoResearch tool. If i'm not mistaken Open Music and PWGL (http://www2.siba.fi/PWGL/) already have something like this.
Look at the images I made of how this object would look like:
- The input would be a message with the midi number of the pitch, and the
object would display a Treble or Bass cleff with the note and output the number of the pitch through the outlet (cleff_pd_01.png).
- It would be possible to alterate the pitch by holding and dragging the
mouse (cleff_pd_02.png)
- Chords could be made... (cleff_pd_03.png)
- or melodies... (cleff_pd_04.png)
- or even sequences of chords. (cleff_pd_05.png)
The output could easily be transformed into notation for lilypond, for instance (like Collin Oldham did in that thread I mentioned).
Do you think it's possible to do something like that? At the moment I don't have the money to pay a programmer to do that (I would happily do it if I could). Maybe I can learn how to do this, but I don't know where to start. I already see some complications to build this object:
- it would have to stretch itself so the chords and melodies would fit;
- It would have to decide what cleff to use (or maybe not, the user could
send a message like [treble<);
- There should have a way to choose between flat and sharp;
- A nice thing would be to have more than one staff at once, like a piano
staff for instance, and so on...
For now I'm just wondering if something like this could be done. I've been doing some calculations of composition techniques using Pd and I miss musical notation so much.
Bye! Caio Barros
Bonus: I made an abstraction to transform midi note to pitch name and also frequency as a part of a bunch of composition tools I use. (and after I read those threads about creating the notation object in GEM I discovered that some people already did it, but here it go anyway). see midi_note.pd
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
João: what you are saing sounds good, but in that discussion I could
hardly see how that object works.
No, you have to follow the links, install it and try it out. That's how I
got to see it. Then you'll see in some examples (if they all work) how
complex it can be.
For now is used for display, but they would eventually be putting in some
feedback/output capabilities, I think.
Another one! I'm working on a full system of music notation display for GEM if that's any help. Progress is really slow, I'm using dynamic patching to create the objects, and it's in no way compatible with Lilypond notation.
In fact, it's a painful process. The kind of object you are talking about would be much nicer - but only if it could also cope with complete rhythmic elements (ties, beaming, time sigs etc) for me.
Good luck, Ed
Metastudio 4 for Pure Data - coming soon! Metastudio 3 still available at http://sharktracks.co.uk/puredata
From: Caio Barros caio.barros@gmail.com To: PD list pd-list@iem.at Sent: Thu, 4 November, 2010 16:03:50 Subject: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd
Hello guys. I've been dreaming about an object that would display musical notation and output data (like midi numbers for instance). I found a discutions about something like that here in our list (http://www.mail-archive.com/pd-list@iem.at/msg19969.html) but this was a discussion about creating live musical notation for performance, and what I have in mind is something more like a Computer Assisted Composition/Research tool. If i'm not mistaken Open Music and PWGL (http://www2.siba.fi/PWGL/) already have something like this. Look at the images I made of how this object would look like:
- The input would be a message with the midi number of the pitch, and the object
would display a Treble or Bass cleff with the note and output the number of the pitch through the outlet (cleff_pd_01.png).
- It would be possible to alterate the pitch by holding and dragging the mouse
(cleff_pd_02.png)
- Chords could be made... (cleff_pd_03.png)
- or melodies... (cleff_pd_04.png)
- or even sequences of chords. (cleff_pd_05.png)
The output could easily be transformed into notation for lilypond, for instance (like Collin Oldham did in that thread I mentioned).
Do you think it's possible to do something like that? At the moment I don't have the money to pay a programmer to do that (I would happily do it if I could). Maybe I can learn how to do this, but I don't know where to start. I already see some complications to build this object:
- it would have to stretch itself so the chords and melodies would fit;
- It would have to decide what cleff to use (or maybe not, the user could send a
message like [treble<);
- There should have a way to choose between flat and sharp;
- A nice thing would be to have more than one staff at once, like a piano staff
for instance, and so on...
For now I'm just wondering if something like this could be done. I've been doing some calculations of composition techniques using Pd and I miss musical notation so much.
Bye! Caio Barros
Bonus: I made an abstraction to transform midi note to pitch name and also frequency as a part of a bunch of composition tools I use. (and after I read those threads about creating the notation object in GEM I discovered that some people already did it, but here it go anyway). see midi_note.pd
I'm not a programmer and don't want to disencourage you, but I don't know
if you're really picking the right surface/tools for this. would it make
sense to unite forces around an other project?
Another one! I'm working on a full system of music notation display for
GEM if that's any help. Progress is really slow, I'm using dynamic patching to
create the objects, and it's in no way compatible with Lilypond notation.In fact, it's a painful process. The kind of object you are talking
about would be much nicer - but only if it could also cope with complete rhythmic
elements (ties, beaming, time sigs etc) for me.
On Sat, 6 Nov 2010, João Pais wrote:
I'm not a programmer and don't want to disencourage you, but I don't know if you're really picking the right surface/tools for this. would it make sense to unite forces around an other project?
[gf/gl] offers a different model for producing geos for GEM. It might be easier to use sometimes, as it allows to put more stuff in messageboxes, and less in objects... it's hard to explain like that, and it depends which GEM components you compare it to. Generally it means less [pack]/[unpack], less wires to connect, and a notation that is both extremely close to OpenGL, yet more comfortable than that.
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
Hi all,
I once made a draft of an object to convertpitch/duration pairs to lilypond. At this stage, you get a score.txt, the contents of which you have to copy to a lilypond document (.ly) and typeset the score. It doesn't do any of the fancy drawing in the patch.
It is an unfinished object for sure, so be patient, but perhaps there is something in the code that is helpful. It can all be found here:
www.jaimeoliver.pe/src/pd2ly-may10.zip
the score.txt document wil be created in your "/" directory.
I was hoping to have some time in the future to finish it. in the meantime you can grab it and use it if it is helpful.
best,
J
On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 8:24 AM, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
On Sat, 6 Nov 2010, João Pais wrote:
I'm not a programmer and don't want to disencourage you, but I don't know
if you're really picking the right surface/tools for this. would it make sense to unite forces around an other project?
[gf/gl] offers a different model for producing geos for GEM. It might be easier to use sometimes, as it allows to put more stuff in messageboxes, and less in objects... it's hard to explain like that, and it depends which GEM components you compare it to. Generally it means less [pack]/[unpack], less wires to connect, and a notation that is both extremely close to OpenGL, yet more comfortable than that.
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
I correct myself, (haven't looked at this for a while) you get a score.lydirectly, which you open with lilypond and typeset.
best,
J
2010/11/6 Jaime Oliver jaime.oliver2@gmail.com
Hi all,
I once made a draft of an object to convertpitch/duration pairs to lilypond. At this stage, you get a score.txt, the contents of which you have to copy to a lilypond document (.ly) and typeset the score. It doesn't do any of the fancy drawing in the patch.
It is an unfinished object for sure, so be patient, but perhaps there is something in the code that is helpful. It can all be found here:
www.jaimeoliver.pe/src/pd2ly-may10.zip
the score.txt document wil be created in your "/" directory.
I was hoping to have some time in the future to finish it. in the meantime you can grab it and use it if it is helpful.
best,
J
On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 8:24 AM, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.cawrote:
On Sat, 6 Nov 2010, João Pais wrote:
I'm not a programmer and don't want to disencourage you, but I don't know
if you're really picking the right surface/tools for this. would it make sense to unite forces around an other project?
[gf/gl] offers a different model for producing geos for GEM. It might be easier to use sometimes, as it allows to put more stuff in messageboxes, and less in objects... it's hard to explain like that, and it depends which GEM components you compare it to. Generally it means less [pack]/[unpack], less wires to connect, and a notation that is both extremely close to OpenGL, yet more comfortable than that.
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- Jaime E Oliver LR
www.jaimeoliver.pe
858 750 0924 (cel) 858 202 1522 (home)
2010/11/5 João Pais do you have his contact? for some reason, brasilian universities don't have the contact of their teachers on their pages.
I don't know if you already see this website: http://music.columbia.edu/~alessi/ http://music.columbia.edu/%7Ealessi/ it has an e-mail but is very outdated...
2010/11/6 Ed Kelly
In fact, it's a painful process. The kind of object you are talking about would be much nicer - but only if it could also cope with complete rhythmic elements (ties, beaming, time sigs etc) for me.
I absolutely think that rhythmic elements should be added. I thought the best would be to have an object just for pitches, another just for rhythm and maybe one that displays both.
2010/11/5 Lorenzo Sutton lsutton@libero.it
I still think you could do all the CAC 'logic' in Pd and use external tools
for the music notation part.
I could do it, no doubt about it, and I think that I will eventualy (I'm having some troubles with jack in my computer though, but that's another problem). Still, what I want is something to display the pitches inside Pd while I'm working with the algorithms, honestly, all those hacks are not as good as a tool like those from PWGL or OpenMusic. I know that Pd was not tought as a CAC program, but on the other side, It was not tought as a video rendering software either...
2010/11/6 Aykut Caglayan
Did you try Fomus? http://fomus.sourceforge.net/ it's supposed to be used with Pd too. Fomus is very functional to transpose numerical data flow into musical notation
Looks nice. Didn't have the chance to try it yet. It can solve a lot of problems but, again, the ideal would be to display the notation at the same time as I do the math. Now that I think about it, transforming the notation into a Lilypond/Sibelius/Finale/MusicXML/PostScript file should be a second step, the first is to have a notation interface inside Pd. The notation display tools form PWGL and OpenMusic work that way: after you are happy with the results, than you can export to you notation software.
Don't get me wrong, all those ideas were very very helpful and I will try them, but since we are just talking about an (yet) hypothetical tool, I think we should consider what would be the best thing to have for that poupose. Pd has a lot of potential as a CAC tool (we are already doing it) and a notation display is something that I feel is essential for that task.
Caio
I don't know if you already see this website: http://music.columbia.edu/~alessi/
http://music.columbia.edu/%7Ealessi/ it has an e-mail but is very outdated...
that mail bounced. it's current employer has his name on a list, but no
mail contact.
I still think you could do all the CAC 'logic' in Pd and use external
toolsfor the music notation part.
I could do it, no doubt about it, and I think that I will eventualy (I'm having some troubles with jack in my computer though, but that's another problem). Still, what I want is something to display the pitches inside
Pd while I'm working with the algorithms, honestly, all those hacks are not
as good as a tool like those from PWGL or OpenMusic. I know that Pd was not tought as a CAC program, but on the other side, It was not tought as a
video rendering software either...
I also agree. this isn't about rendering a score programmed in Pd, but
working on the score at the same time one works on Pd. And for that it's
necessary that both things work at the same time and can communicate with
each other.
One other detail that would be important is also the communication from
the score to the patch. For example, trigger events by clicking in the
score, etc.
Don't get me wrong, all those ideas were very very helpful and I will try them, but since we are just talking about an (yet) hypothetical tool, I think we should consider what would be the best thing to have for that poupose. Pd has a lot of potential as a CAC tool (we are already doing
it) and a notation display is something that I feel is essential for that
task.
As I said, this project seemed to me to be nice, and it's also at an
advanced stage. http://sourceforge.net/projects/inscore/
On 7 Nov 2010, at 10:23, João Pais wrote:
As I said, this project seemed to me to be nice, and it's also at an advanced stage. http://sourceforge.net/projects/inscore/
Indeed! Wow, inscore (Interlude Score) seems to be another incredible project from GRAME. Thanks for the link. Very impressive.
Jamie
On 6 Nov 2010, at 18:16, Jaime Oliver wrote:
Hi all,
I once made a draft of an object to convertpitch/duration pairs to lilypond. At this stage, you get a score.txt, the contents of which you have to copy to a lilypond document (.ly) and typeset the score. It doesn't do any of the fancy drawing in the patch.
It is an unfinished object for sure, so be patient, but perhaps there is something in the code that is helpful. It can all be found here:
www.jaimeoliver.pe/src/pd2ly-may10.zip
the score.txt document wil be created in your "/" directory.
I was hoping to have some time in the future to finish it. in the meantime you can grab it and use it if it is helpful.
In addition to this Graham Percival has just kindly agreed to make available his old Firelily code.
From the README:
""" This software package is intended to be an aid to producing algorithmic sheet music, either in real-time or not. It takes OSC (Open Sound Control) messages, which are easily produced in any music programming language (MAX/Msp, pd, supercollider, chuck, etc) and translates them into lilypond input files.
As an option, these input files may be sent to lilypond immediately and the resulting images displayed. Alternatively, the data may simply be saved for extra manual tweaks and composition. """
This is a 5-years old project, so it might need some tweaking to get it working, but still the code/ideas might be useful to someone.
Download:
http://percival-music.ca/software/firelily-0.3.tar.gz
All best,
Jamie
I'm not a programmer and don't want to disencourage you, but I don't know if you're really picking the
right surface/tools for this. would it make sense to unite forces around an other project?
Well...that might have been an option, but the first concert is already organised, in less than three months, the system is nearly finished, and I've been working on it for two years.
I can't stop now!!!
It _will_ work.
Ed
Another one! I'm working on a full system of music notation display for GEM if that's any help. Progress is really slow, I'm using dynamic patching to create the objects, and it's in no way compatible with Lilypond notation.
In fact, it's a painful process. The kind of object you are talking about
would
be much nicer - but only if it could also cope with complete rhythmic elements (ties, beaming, time sigs etc) for me.
Having said what I said, inscore does look particularly interesting
Metastudio 4 for Pure Data - coming soon! Metastudio 3 still available at http://sharktracks.co.uk/puredata
----- Original Message ---- From: Ed Kelly morph_2016@yahoo.co.uk To: João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com Cc: PD List pd-list@iem.at Sent: Sun, 7 November, 2010 10:37:49 Subject: Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd
I'm not a programmer and don't want to disencourage you, but I don't know if you're really picking the
right surface/tools for this. would it make sense to unite forces around an other project?
Well...that might have been an option, but the first concert is already organised, in less than three months, the system is nearly finished, and I've been working on it for two years.
I can't stop now!!!
It _will_ work.
Ed
Another one! I'm working on a full system of music notation display for GEM if that's any help. Progress is really slow, I'm using dynamic patching to create the objects, and it's in no way compatible with Lilypond notation.
In fact, it's a painful process. The kind of object you are talking about
would
be much nicer - but only if it could also cope with complete rhythmic elements (ties, beaming, time sigs etc) for me.
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Thu, 4 Nov 2010, Caio Barros wrote:
Hello guys. I've been dreaming about an object that would display musical notation and output data (like midi numbers for instance).
Hi, I just made a slider for a musical note on a stave, but I haven't decided what to do with the scales. Look at this :
http://gridflow.ca/help/note-help.png
(It's in GridFlow's SVN, if you can use that.)
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
This looks just awesome! Unfortunately I'm not at home this week and I don't have linux down here. Is there a way to use SVN under windows? About the scale, do you have problems with midi note? I believe this would be the most compatible with other functions.
2010/11/7 Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca
On Thu, 4 Nov 2010, Caio Barros wrote:
Hello guys. I've been dreaming about an object that would display musical
notation and output data (like midi numbers for instance).
Hi, I just made a slider for a musical note on a stave, but I haven't decided what to do with the scales. Look at this :
http://gridflow.ca/help/note-help.png
(It's in GridFlow's SVN, if you can use that.)
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
----- "Caio Barros" caio.barros@gmail.com a écrit :
About the scale, do you have problems with midi note? I believe this would be the most compatible with other functions.
2010/11/7 Mathieu Bouchard < matju@artengine.ca >
Hi, I just made a slider for a musical note on a stave, but I haven't
decided what to do with the scales....
We usually set scale by transposing to the fifth (the major scale seven half tones upper) for adding a sharp, and to the fourth (the major scale five half-tones upper) for adding a flat
patko:
We usually set scale by transposing to the fifth (the major scale seven half tones upper) for adding a sharp, and to the fourth (the major scale five half-tones upper) for adding a flat
Now I'm confused. What does Mathieu meant by "scale"? I tought it was just what number corresponds to what pitch.
João:
Since there are already some projects going through in this area (e.g. pwgl or inscore), wouldn't it make sense to try to integrate with these, or try to help them, instead of reinventing the wheel?
I just tryed INScore and it looks fantastic, although I don't know yet if it can send information to Pd, how it handles microtonal information, etc. The problem I see is having that separate window to display the results. Right now I'm convinced that the ideal would be to have a display inside the same patch you are working on, a real object.
What Mathieu Bouchard did seems to be just in the right way, although it do need all that implementations you mentioned its a very very good start.
I just tryed INScore and it looks fantastic, although I don't know yet
if it can send information to Pd, how it handles microtonal information, etc.
The problem I see is having that separate window to display the results.
Right now I'm convinced that the ideal would be to have a display inside the
same patch you are working on, a real object.What Mathieu Bouchard did seems to be just in the right way, although it
do need all that implementations you mentioned its a very very good start.
The developer told me that it can't send information to pd yet. The
outside window might make sense sometimes (it does as an extra for my
Click Tracker patch), other times not, that's true. I didn't ask him if it
would be possible to integrate it inside Pd.
On Sun, 7 Nov 2010, Caio Barros wrote:
This looks just awesome! Unfortunately I'm not at home this week and I don't have linux down here. Is there a way to use SVN under windows?
Getting SVN to run under windows might be the easiest step. After that you have to compile the library. The hardest part of compiling the library is to add all the DLL files and the H files you need to produce a full-featured GRIDFLOW.DLL. Though you can make a minimal one more easily, you need at least PNG support and SDL support to be able to use my new [note] abstraction.
It would be nice to have it precompiled on the gridflow site, but after my installation of Windows corrupted itself on its own, I didn't feel like reinstalling it. At least I found a «recovery disk» some months ago. I haven't tried it yet.
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
On Sun, 7 Nov 2010, Caio Barros wrote:
About the scale, do you have problems with midi note? I believe this would be the most compatible with other functions.
Well, normally I use midi note numbers or a transposed version thereof (especially : midi note minus a multiple of 12), but in this case, I have only implemented «white keys», and then, I wonder what you expect the interface to be, to implement the «black keys», and whether those numbers should be displayed as dièse or bémol.
I think I will use the vertical space as something as equally divided as possible into midi notes, and then display all of them as either unaltered or dièse. Later, the latter part can be modified to show notes in any other chosen scale, maybe...
And I want an option to hide the clef de Sol (thinking of it in the context of using it as a [#many] component, hypothesising a future in which [#many] supports an abstraction name as its $1).
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
About the scale, do you have problems with midi note? I believe this would be the most compatible with other functions.
Well, normally I use midi note numbers or a transposed version thereof (especially : midi note minus a multiple of 12), but in this case, I have only implemented «white keys», and then, I wonder what you expect the interface to be, to implement the «black keys», and whether those numbers should be displayed as diÚse or bémol.
I think I will use the vertical space as something as equally divided as possible into midi notes, and then display all of them as either
unaltered or diÚse. Later, the latter part can be modified to show notes in any other chosen scale, maybe...And I want an option to hide the clef de Sol (thinking of it in the context of using it as a [#many] component, hypothesising a future in which [#many] supports an abstraction name as its $1).
don't forget that chromatic pitches is just a small fraction of what's
available. then there's quarter-, eight-, sixteenth-, etc. tones (just to
say some for which there exist already notation standards), "natural"
tunings (harmonic series), other tunings, cent notation...
as I see it, no notation object is complete without being possible to
incorporate these as well (I didn't download your object yet, so didn't
see how you do it).
2010/11/8 João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com
About the scale, do you have problems with midi note? I believe this
would be the most compatible with other functions.
Well, normally I use midi note numbers or a transposed version thereof (especially : midi note minus a multiple of 12), but in this case, I have only implemented «white keys», and then, I wonder what you expect the interface to be, to implement the «black keys», and whether those numbers should be displayed as dièse or bémol.
I think I will use the vertical space as something as equally divided as possible into midi notes, and then display all of them as either unaltered or dièse. Later, the latter part can be modified to show notes in any other chosen scale, maybe...
And I want an option to hide the clef de Sol (thinking of it in the context of using it as a [#many] component, hypothesising a future in which [#many] supports an abstraction name as its $1).
don't forget that chromatic pitches is just a small fraction of what's available. then there's quarter-, eight-, sixteenth-, etc. tones (just to say some for which there exist already notation standards), "natural" tunings (harmonic series), other tunings, cent notation...
as I see it, no notation object is complete without being possible to incorporate these as well (I didn't download your object yet, so didn't see how you do it).
If i'm not mistaken, in PWGL and OpenMusic the user can choose if he or she wants to display all the notes as sharps (dièse) or flats (bémol) and then change each note to its enharmonic pair if wanted. What I supouse would be the best choice is to have a kind of message that you send to the object with the following options:
- all "black notes" as sharps. suggestion: [accidental sharp<
- all "black notes" as flats. suggestion: [accidental flat<
- wich note I want in wich way. suggestion: [accidental 1 0 1 0 0 < meaning
c-sharp, e-flat, f-sharp, a-flat and b-flat. What would be extremely nice is if the user could change those options after the note is displayed, dynamically.
In the case of microtones, again, if I'm not mistaken, in those CAC softwares the user can choose between:
- Display the quarter-tone default symbols(
http://en.wikivisual.com/index.php/Image:Partial_accidentals.gif) if its just quarter tone what the user wants
- Display the arrowed accidentals for "more-than-sharp",
"less-than-natural", etc. (see attached picture, made with lilypond) and display a number at the right of the note wich I don't remember if it is the frequency in Herz or the midi pitch as in, for instance, 60.3. I personally prefer the second option, but I believe that in the perfect tool the user could choose between the two.
I didn't try the object yet because I didn't have the chance to try to compile gridflow 9.13. I never done this before, but I'll try to do it today. Anyway, this [note] object seems the most promissing of the choices presented here (I feel that of course because its the closest to what I had in mind, maybe in the future the community will choose something different). Thank you Mathieu!
On Mon, 8 Nov 2010, Caio Barros wrote:
- wich note I want in wich way. suggestion: [accidental 1 0 1 0 0 <
meaning c-sharp, e-flat, f-sharp, a-flat and b-flat. What would be extremely nice is if the user could change those options after the note is displayed, dynamically.
But this does not handle the question of how I'd set an armature using a message. For example, if I have a E-flat armature, 71 has to be displayed as B-bécarre, whereas 70 is now the default B.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:B%C3%A9carre.PNG
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
Not all, if you follow the fourth cycle you don't have a B bécarre but a C flat
----- "Mathieu Bouchard" matju@artengine.ca a écrit :
On Mon, 8 Nov 2010, Caio Barros wrote:
- wich note I want in wich way. suggestion: [accidental 1 0 1 0 0 <
meaning c-sharp, e-flat, f-sharp, a-flat and b-flat. What would be extremely nice is if the user could change those options after the
note
is displayed, dynamically.
But this does not handle the question of how I'd set an armature using a message. For example, if I have a E-flat armature, 71 has to be displayed as B-bécarre, whereas 70 is now the default B.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:B%C3%A9carre.PNG
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
If i'm not mistaken, in PWGL and OpenMusic the user can choose if he or
she wants to display all the notes as sharps (diÚse) or flats (bémol) and
then change each note to its enharmonic pair if wanted. What I supouse would
be the best choice is to have a kind of message that you send to the object with the following options:
- all "black notes" as sharps. suggestion: [accidental sharp<
- all "black notes" as flats. suggestion: [accidental flat<
- wich note I want in wich way. suggestion: [accidental 1 0 1 0 0 <
meaning c-sharp, e-flat, f-sharp, a-flat and b-flat. What would be extremely nice is if the user could change those options
after the note is displayed, dynamically.In the case of microtones, again, if I'm not mistaken, in those CAC softwares the user can choose between:
- Display the quarter-tone default symbols(
http://en.wikivisual.com/index.php/Image:Partial_accidentals.gif) if its just quarter tone what the user wants
- Display the arrowed accidentals for "more-than-sharp",
"less-than-natural", etc. (see attached picture, made with lilypond) and display a number at the right of the note wich I don't remember if it is
the frequency in Herz or the midi pitch as in, for instance, 60.3. I
personally prefer the second option, but I believe that in the perfect tool the user could choose between the two.
I don't use open music, but can get the input of someone who works with it
almost every day. The list Caio made is right from a notation viewpoint.
The only thing that can be added is that for the microtonal pitches, the
number above is usually either the frequency of the note, or the cent
deviation (between 0 and 100).
Or maybe any other number that the composer wants to display there. But at
some point, it is expected that a number will appear there.
João
About the key signature (armadure), if the user choose, for instance, the key of G major (with the f-sharp) and click+drag the mouse it will get only the seven notes from the G major scale? if thats the case I really think that one important option should be the chromatic scale and in that case the user need again to choose wich notes are flat and wich are sharp. If you are planning to make the object behave in major/minor scales the really best would be to have the options to accept any scale like, for instance, the modes of limited transposition ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modes_of_limited_transposition) and a lot of ethnic modes wich are about unlimited (and a lot of them are microtonal, by the way). If this is too much, at least the chromatic option is imperative. On the one hand, the scale behavior is nice for some calculations (I already have some ideas), but honestly I would almost always use it in the chromatic mode.
I had an idea for the mouse dragging that I don't know how hard is to implement. How about making the object behave like the number atom, that is, if the user click and drag, the notes will go up and down chromatically (or in the scale choosen) and if the user shift+click+drag the notes would move in a microtonal way. It doesn't have to be that much precise (I would say, two float points in midi scale maybe? = cents), if the user really wants to make precise notation it would input it as a float on the inlet. At least in western music, this much precision is impossible to execute by a human player playing an instrument, this precition would be only for calculations anyway.
2010/11/9 João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com
If i'm not mistaken, in PWGL and OpenMusic the user can choose if he or she
wants to display all the notes as sharps (dièse) or flats (bémol) and then change each note to its enharmonic pair if wanted. What I supouse would be the best choice is to have a kind of message that you send to the object with the following options:
- all "black notes" as sharps. suggestion: [accidental sharp<
- all "black notes" as flats. suggestion: [accidental flat<
- wich note I want in wich way. suggestion: [accidental 1 0 1 0 0 <
meaning c-sharp, e-flat, f-sharp, a-flat and b-flat. What would be extremely nice is if the user could change those options after the note is displayed, dynamically.
In the case of microtones, again, if I'm not mistaken, in those CAC softwares the user can choose between:
- Display the quarter-tone default symbols(
http://en.wikivisual.com/index.php/Image:Partial_accidentals.gif) if its just quarter tone what the user wants
- Display the arrowed accidentals for "more-than-sharp",
"less-than-natural", etc. (see attached picture, made with lilypond) and display a number at the right of the note wich I don't remember if it is the frequency in Herz or the midi pitch as in, for instance, 60.3. I personally prefer the second option, but I believe that in the perfect tool the user could choose between the two.
I don't use open music, but can get the input of someone who works with it almost every day. The list Caio made is right from a notation viewpoint. The only thing that can be added is that for the microtonal pitches, the number above is usually either the frequency of the note, or the cent deviation (between 0 and 100).
Or maybe any other number that the composer wants to display there. But at some point, it is expected that a number will appear there.
João
I had an idea for the mouse dragging that I don't know how hard is to implement. How about making the object behave like the number atom, that is, if the user click and drag, the notes will go up and down chromatically (or in
the scale choosen) and if the user shift+click+drag the notes would move in a microtonal way. It doesn't have to be that much precise (I would say, two float points in midi scale maybe? = cents), if the user really wants to
make precise notation it would input it as a float on the inlet. At least in western music, this much precision is impossible to execute by a human player playing an instrument, this precition would be only for
calculations anyway.
I didn't see Mathieu's object yet, but just a small opinion about
mouse-dragging (or mouse events): afaik, the graphical display of musical
elements in open music et al is just a display, just an expressive way of
looking at numbers. I'm not sure if these surfaces allow for mouse control
in that way (I suspect they don't). Adding mouse control might be not
really necessary (if you control the numbers), and can make things really
complicated to manage.
On Tue, 9 Nov 2010, João Pais wrote:
I didn't see Mathieu's object yet, but just a small opinion about mouse-dragging (or mouse events): afaik, the graphical display of musical elements in open music et al is just a display, just an expressive way of looking at numbers. I'm not sure if these surfaces allow for mouse control in that way (I suspect they don't). Adding mouse control might be not really necessary (if you control the numbers), and can make things really complicated to manage.
What you need to know about this [note] business is that either it gets mouse control, or I don't care about it at all. I never looked at OpenMusic and I'm not interested in duplicating anything... if I end up duplicating part of something, it will be [vsl]. I think that [vsl]'s clickability is a lot more relevant to Pd users than OpenMusic's non-clickability.
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
On Mon, 8 Nov 2010, João Pais wrote:
don't forget that chromatic pitches is just a small fraction of what's available.
Don't forget that I have little interest in microtonal. Don't forget that this is an abstraction, and you can either modify it to support microtonal and I accept, or you modify it and I refuse the changes and you rename it to [microtone] and then I accept it. (!)
then there's quarter-, eight-, sixteenth-, etc. tones (just to say some for which there exist already notation standards),
Never seen those. We're getting close to the precision limit of the mouse anyway, so, you will have to figure out another way to get more precise than 100 ¢ (I never liked the single-pixel precision of Pd, so, when we're already down to 2 px per 100 ¢,
"natural" tunings (harmonic series), other tunings
If you need any kind of just-intonation, it's better to write it in whole semitones at first and then use a translator that turns 64 into 63.8631 and so on, isn't it ? Or are there any complications with that ?
cent notation...
Why not use [nbx] or a plain numberbox (Ctrl+3) for that ?
as I see it, no notation object is complete without being possible to incorporate these as well (I didn't download your object yet, so didn't see how you do it).
And once it is completed, people will find another reason to call it non-complete, such as its inability to represent probability distributions of pitches that are supposed to sound different each time you play them, or what if the pitch is a complex number, or a quaternion, or a matrix. I mean, I don't really believe in this "complete" word, unless I can see an end to the feature expansion.
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
don't forget that chromatic pitches is just a small fraction of what's available.
Don't forget that I have little interest in microtonal. Don't forget that this is an abstraction, and you can either modify it to support
microtonal and I accept, or you modify it and I refuse the changes and you rename it to [microtone] and then I accept it. (!)
in that case, I'll have little interest in your solution. I'm just
alerting to what going on to this terrain might involve, as for long pitch
hasn't been reduced to midi integers. like if someone releases an
oscilator that doesn't accept values behind commas, no one will find it
useful.
then there's quarter-, eight-, sixteenth-, etc. tones (just to say some for which there exist already notation standards),
Never seen those. We're getting close to the precision limit of the mouse anyway, so, you will have to figure out another way to get more precise than 100 ¢ (I never liked the single-pixel precision of Pd, so, when we're already down to 2 px per 100 ¢,
"natural" tunings (harmonic series), other tunings
If you need any kind of just-intonation, it's better to write it in whole semitones at first and then use a translator that turns 64 into 63.8631 and so on, isn't it ? Or are there any complications with that ?
the problem isn't the exit parameter, but the notation. I was pointing to
the several standards that exist. and since the point made in this thread
(not by me) was for this kind of tools to be of assistance to written
music composers, they should be aware of the complexities these composers
use.
it's perfectly possible to notate other intonations using a normal
chromatic scale. one option is not to notate anything at all (and the
result will just sound "untuned"), another one is to add the accidentals
with arrows (which can mean a lot of different things, but it's usually
accepted), another is to add the accidentals with arrows with the exact
cent count for the deviation, ... main thing is, the tool should allow for
these solutions.
cent notation...
Why not use [nbx] or a plain numberbox (Ctrl+3) for that ?
I'm saying to notate these things in the picture. I only saw your object
from your screenshot, did you mean to add a numberbox over the note?
as I see it, no notation object is complete without being possible to incorporate these as well (I didn't download your object yet, so didn't see how you do it).
And once it is completed, people will find another reason to call it non-complete, such as its inability to represent probability
distributions of pitches that are supposed to sound different each time you play them, or what if the pitch is a complex number, or a quaternion, or a matrix. I mean, I don't really believe in this "complete" word, unless I can see an end to the feature expansion.
you could display some of these with a cluster, indicating the top and
bottom values, and the normal cluster line to notate it's a cluster. I
have never seen a pitch as a complex number, but I don't really know what
is a complex number, I didn't have much math in high school. as for the
matrix, I guess the word you're looking for is "chord"? (or a cluster,
which is a specific type of chord)
main point is, we're in the 21st century, and composers nowadays -
specially the ones using pwgl, open music, and similar tools - have been
for a long time not confined to integer midi pitch, and these tools
reflect that. so if this subject is for a composition tool, this is the
standard of these tools nowadays, and if someone wants to include
something like that in Pd, it would make sense to consider the standards
around us.
music with 8bits and 15Khz can sound nice and there's nothing wrong with
it, but if pd would be confined to those standards (instead of being
confined to another set of standards, which still aren't enough for some
people), it's user base would be much smaller.
João
On Tue, 9 Nov 2010, João Pais wrote:
in that case, I'll have little interest in your solution.
Hey, I'm making an abstraction, which you can modify to make it work the way you want, and I promise to accept your version in GridFlow (though perhaps under a different name). What's wrong with that ?
I'm just alerting to what going on to this terrain might involve, as for long pitch hasn't been reduced to midi integers. like if someone releases an oscilator that doesn't accept values behind commas, no one will find it useful.
The analogy doesn't hold that much, because oscillators use non-integer midi numbers a lot more often than a score needs to.
I'm not really against microtonal, I just don't use it by myself, and I don't see myself using them anytime soon. I don't work in a music department either.
I'm saying to notate these things in the picture.
ok... hmmm... I may try something later, but you're still not telling me how someone would pick a number of ± cents by clicking in a certain way inside of the box. How would that happen ?
you could display some of these with a cluster, indicating the top and bottom values, and the normal cluster line to notate it's a cluster.
A probability distribution is not just an interval, it's a likelihood associated to each value. (Well, often a probability distribution isn't even an interval, but that's another story)
I have never seen a pitch as a complex number, but I don't really know what is a complex number,
I was more or less joking.
It's a math gimmick that was found to allow to shorten a lot of formulas, apart from making them weirder. For example, a complex pitch is an ordinary pitch and a decay speed (of the note's volume) expressed in the same number (that's both a shortcut and something weird).
I didn't have much math in high school.
When I was in school, complex numbers were generally avoided. Even in grade 13 physics, were they'd have fitted well, they were avoided. I had to wait till the mid year of a university degree to have a course on them.
as for the matrix, I guess the word you're looking for is "chord"? (or a cluster, which is a specific type of chord)
No, I'm not looking for a word. A matrix is another math gadget "bigger" than a complex number, and sometimes you can do funny things with them. If one made an oscillator whose pitch is a matrix, a single oscillator would output several signals at once (!!!).
I mentioned those things because I was just guessing what kind of things one could invent, which would make microtonality just not complete enough anymore, so I picked a few things that a mathematician might be curious to try.
But you can use complex numbers in pd already, using [fft~] or [cpole~]. I made a song based on [cpole~] called I'm Just a Simple Pole in a Complex Plane.
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
Hi all,
I'm a bit late to join this discussion... This is just to mention some open source projects of interest regarding the music notation topic. First the GUIDO project (http://guidolib.sourceforge.net/) that already includes a Pd external and next the INScore project (http://inscore.sourceforge.net/) - already mentioned by João - which may be viewed as an extension of the former.
The GUIDO project is cross-platform (Linux, MacOS, Windows). It is based on the Guido Music Notation format, a simple textual music description language. It takes account of conventional western music notation and probably supports most of the features you're discussing but no microtonal yet (which shouldn't be difficult to implement) and more generally no contemporary music notation signs. The GUIDO PureData external (https://sourceforge.net/projects/guidolib/files/PureData/) provides all of the engine capabilities but is actually not very efficient due to an implementation over Tcl/Tk (quickly made without prior experience of externals design).
The INScore project is also cross-platform (Linux, MacOS, Windows). Controlled using OSC, build over the Guido Engine, it extends the music score to arbitrary graphic objets and gives a temporal dimension to all of them. It provides graphic synchronization between the components, interaction features... More about the system capabilities : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p96FVMENNtI
Regards,
Dominique Fober
_______________________________________
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9 rue du Garet BP 1189 - 69202 Lyon Cedex 01
tel:+33 (0)4 720 737 06 fax:+33 (0)4 720 737 01
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The INScore project is also cross-platform (Linux, MacOS, Windows).
Controlled using OSC, build over the Guido Engine, it extends the music
score to arbitrary graphic objets and gives a temporal dimension to all
of them. It provides graphic synchronization between the components,
interaction features... More about the system capabilities :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p96FVMENNtI
these examples are quite nice, haven't seen them in max before. I didn't look at the max folder before. if you want, I can program them in Pd, including the ones that you didn't include, like interlude.maxpat (or someone else can as well, if they want to).
I didn't see the interaction example in your folders, can you include it as well?
What is the current situation of this project? Are you temporarily at Grame, is this a thesis of yours? How long is it going to be developed, are there going to be any license issues in the future, etc etc.?
João
in that case, I'll have little interest in your solution.
Hey, I'm making an abstraction, which you can modify to make it work the way you want, and I promise to accept your version in GridFlow (though perhaps under a different name). What's wrong with that ?
nothing, it's quite nice. I'm just alerting that it can be a more complex
problem.
I'm just alerting to what going on to this terrain might involve, as for long pitch hasn't been reduced to midi integers. like if someone releases an oscilator that doesn't accept values behind commas, no one will find it useful.
The analogy doesn't hold that much, because oscillators use non-integer midi numbers a lot more often than a score needs to.
that depends on the person. if you get someone that doesn't really work
that much with electronic, you give him an oscillator with integers, and
he'll be happy (for a short while, until he will need more than that,
hopefully).
I'm saying to notate these things in the picture.
ok... hmmm... I may try something later, but you're still not telling me how someone would pick a number of ± cents by clicking in a certain way inside of the box. How would that happen ?
I didn't look at your example and I can't do it for now, I really can't
have a break to look for the files.
I'm not sure if it's a good idea to control that with the mouse, maybe
better an external command? As I said on another mail, I don't know if on
open music etc is possible to change notes by click-dragging, or if it's
that important.
you could display some of these with a cluster, indicating the top and bottom values, and the normal cluster line to notate it's a cluster.
A probability distribution is not just an interval, it's a likelihood associated to each value. (Well, often a probability distribution isn't even an interval, but that's another story)
that's right. in that case it would have to be a symbol or something, that
opens up the note reservoir by clicking on it.
I mentioned those things because I was just guessing what kind of things one could invent, which would make microtonality just not complete enough anymore, so I picked a few things that a mathematician might be curious
to try.
anyway these examples can be interesting. it might be better to do with
encapsulation of note objects inside other "notes". don't know pd is
capable of doing that with normal objects (or current data structures
capabilities, they're still underdeveloped), without giving the programmer
a breakdown and psychanalist therapy.
João
On Sun, 7 Nov 2010, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
Well, normally I use midi note numbers or a transposed version thereof (especially : midi note minus a multiple of 12), but in this case, I have only implemented «white keys»,
Oupse, to be clear, I mean that I numbered them
0=Do 1=Ré 2=Mi 3=Fa 4=Sol 5=La 6=Si 7=Do
but that I intend to change that.
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
that looks a nice beginning (I can't try it now). But I would say that in
order to make a "complete" object, it should be possible to
- render complex musical structures (including microtonal pitches,
dynamics, articulations, rhythms, polyphony ...)
- get instructions from pd and/or from other standards - musicxml, for
example
- use characters and fonts defined by the user
- on top of the cherry, interact with pd as well - e.g. release messages
when someone clicks on a note on the score, ...
- whatever I'm not remembering now
Since there are already some projects going through in this area (e.g.
pwgl or inscore), wouldn't it make sense to try to integrate with these,
or try to help them, instead of reinventing the wheel?
João
On Thu, 4 Nov 2010, Caio Barros wrote:
Hello guys. I've been dreaming about an object that would display musical notation and output data (like midi numbers for instance).
Hi, I just made a slider for a musical note on a stave, but I haven't decided what to do with the scales. Look at this :
http://gridflow.ca/help/note-help.png
(It's in GridFlow's SVN, if you can use that.)
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
Since there are already some projects going through in this area (e.g. pwgl or inscore), wouldn't it make sense to try to integrate with these, or try to help them, instead of reinventing the wheel?
Perhaps, but consider this:
The performer I am working with is a percussionist, and excellent at sight-reading music. However, he's not by any stretch of the imagination a programmer, and the idea of giving him command-line compilation issues to deal with, or complex connectivity between packages, would kill the project straight away. From me he needs to receive, via email, a PD patch that will just work. If other libraries are "wrapped" into PD i.e. externals are made and integrated into a future PD-extended, then these might provide some practical options for me to work with classical musicians who aren't programmers (and the majority of them are not). However, for the time being I am limited to that which can be rendered by the current PD-extended straight out of the (in)box, without any modifications to the computer it is running on.
That is why I'm building a system that uses just GEM and a truetype font, which can be made into a single package and distributed to the performer of my piece. If I had institutional support perhaps I could envisage something more complex to work, but I have been unlucky in that respect. I could either give up, or try to find a practical solution that works both for me and for a non-computer geek classically trained player. I choose the latter because I want to make music.
Best, Ed
I know about non-techsavy classical players, I wrote the click tracker for
them - http://puredata.info/Members/jmmmp/click-tracker.
of course you shouldn't send any cryptical commands to anyone who isn't
interested in getting them. But for example packaging inscore into the
same folder as your patch, and starting it (it's a separate application)
isn't that hard to manage in Pd, and not something that's hard to
organise. as long as the patch works on its own, the players don't really
care what's happening inside.
you're free to do what you want, I would myself not even venture into such
a project, because there are already several resources available that
might be more efficient on doing the same (or even a better) job.
Since there are already some projects going through in this area (e.g.
pwgl or inscore), wouldn't it make sense to try to integrate with these, or try to help them, instead
of reinventing the wheel?Perhaps, but consider this:
The performer I am working with is a percussionist, and excellent at sight-reading music. However, he's not by any stretch of the imagination
a programmer, and the idea of giving him command-line compilation issues
to deal with, or complex connectivity between packages, would kill the project
straight away. From me he needs to receive, via email, a PD patch that will just
work. If other libraries are "wrapped" into PD i.e. externals are made and
integrated into a future PD-extended, then these might provide some practical
options for me to work with classical musicians who aren't programmers (and the
majority of them are not). However, for the time being I am limited to that which
can be rendered by the current PD-extended straight out of the (in)box, without
any modifications to the computer it is running on.That is why I'm building a system that uses just GEM and a truetype
font, which can be made into a single package and distributed to the performer of my
piece. If I had institutional support perhaps I could envisage something more
complex to work, but I have been unlucky in that respect. I could either give
up, or try to find a practical solution that works both for me and for a
non-computer geek classically trained player. I choose the latter because I want to make
music.Best, Ed
Yep, you're probably right. I hate this project already, since it's given me a summer of frustration while I attempt to look after a 1-year old child while trying to get my head around segmented counts and automatically adjusted beams. The latter is solved, the former is in an emacs window next to this one.
I'm just in a bit too deep to get out now! If I'd known about inscore before I started, I probably would have gone down that path. It doesn't seem to have a Linux compile method though...and I don't have a Mac...and the player does.
Best, Ed
of course you shouldn't send any cryptical commands to anyone who isn't interested in getting them. But for example packaging inscore into the same folder as your patch, and starting it (it's a separate application) isn't that hard to manage in Pd, and not something that's hard to organise. as
long as the patch works on its own, the players don't really care what's happening inside.
you're free to do what you want, I would myself not even venture into such a project, because there
are already several resources available that might be more efficient on doing the same (or even a
better) job.
Since there are already some projects going through in this area (e.g. pwgl
or
inscore), wouldn't it make sense to try to integrate with these, or try to help them, instead of reinventing the wheel?
Perhaps, but consider this:
The performer I am working with is a percussionist, and excellent at sight-reading music. However, he's not by any stretch of the imagination a programmer, and the idea of giving him command-line compilation issues to deal with, or complex connectivity between packages, would kill the project
straight
away. From me he needs to receive, via email, a PD patch that will just work. If other libraries are "wrapped" into PD i.e. externals are made and integrated into a future PD-extended, then these might provide some practical options for me to work with classical musicians who aren't programmers (and the majority
of
them are not). However, for the time being I am limited to that which can be rendered by the current PD-extended straight out of the (in)box, without any modifications to the computer it is running on.
That is why I'm building a system that uses just GEM and a truetype font,
which
can be made into a single package and distributed to the performer of my
piece.
If I had institutional support perhaps I could envisage something more complex to work, but I have been unlucky in that respect. I could either give up, or try to find a practical solution that works both for me and for a non-computer
geek
classically trained player. I choose the latter because I want to make music.
Best, Ed
--Friedenstr. 58 10249 Berlin (Deutschland) Tel +49 30 42020091 | Mob +49 162 6843570 Studio +49 30 69509190 jmmmpais@googlemail.com | skype: jmmmpjmmmp
Yes, it's madness to try this through dynamic patching, but I'm getting pretty far (see screenshot)
Hello,
why did you work with dynamic patching? it's very easy to script Gem.
Cyrille
Le 07/11/2010 14:28, Ed Kelly a écrit :
Yes, it's madness to try this through dynamic patching, but I'm getting pretty far (see screenshot)
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I think it is something near the exemple use for the LSystem (or i am wrong). You just need to define in one message the model you want to show at each frame. It is most simple to 'manage' than dynamic patching during the execution of the program. ++
Jack
Le dimanche 07 novembre 2010 à 12:04 -0500, Mathieu Bouchard a écrit :
On Sun, 7 Nov 2010, cyrille henry wrote:
why did you work with dynamic patching? it's very easy to script Gem.
What do you mean by "to script" ?
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Sun, 7 Nov 2010, Ed Kelly wrote:
Yes, it's madness to try this through dynamic patching, but I'm getting pretty far (see screenshot)
Perhaps it's easier to zip an existing GridFlow binary into an existing pd-extended package to get [gf/gl], than to have to do dynamic patching and weird [repeat] tricks in GEM.
I created [gf/gl] because it allows to get rid of nearly all annoyances in the use of OpenGL, because OpenGL commands are represented by *messages*, not *objects*.
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
On Sun, 7 Nov 2010, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Sun, 7 Nov 2010, Ed Kelly wrote:
Yes, it's madness to try this through dynamic patching, but I'm getting pretty far (see screenshot)
Perhaps it's easier to zip an existing GridFlow binary into an existing pd-extended package to get [gf/gl], than to have to do dynamic patching and weird [repeat] tricks in GEM.
I created [gf/gl] because it allows to get rid of nearly all annoyances in the use of OpenGL, because OpenGL commands are represented by *messages*, not *objects*.
BTW it's very possible to integrate together GEM and [gf/gl]... you can add [gf/gl] abstractions that pretend that they use the gem_state message they get. You can convert your existing abstractions one at a time, whenever you feel like it. It's a lot different from starting the whole thing over.
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
that makes sense, now it's not the time to stop. maybe for the next piece
(or not) :)
I only tried the windows version, but inscore should work for all
plattforms, I think (or I'm misunderstanding something).
Yep, you're probably right. I hate this project already, since it's
given me a summer of frustration while I attempt to look after a 1-year old child
while trying to get my head around segmented counts and automatically adjusted
beams. The latter is solved, the former is in an emacs window next to this one.I'm just in a bit too deep to get out now! If I'd known about inscore
before I started, I probably would have gone down that path. It doesn't seem to
have a Linux compile method though...and I don't have a Mac...and the player
does.
That's a really neat and clever little object that musicians will immediately love.
a.
On Sat, 6 Nov 2010 23:50:37 -0400 (EDT) Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
On Thu, 4 Nov 2010, Caio Barros wrote:
Hello guys. I've been dreaming about an object that would display musical notation and output data (like midi numbers for instance).
Hi, I just made a slider for a musical note on a stave, but I haven't decided what to do with the scales. Look at this :
http://gridflow.ca/help/note-help.png
(It's in GridFlow's SVN, if you can use that.)
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
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