i'm not sure what the subject of this thread is, if there's not so many women in pd because the documentation is not clear enough? isn's that valid for men too?
yes is basically valid for all people that are not white males or in other words for all the people that have different cognitive styles than the dominant western white model.
and should there be a special documentation aimed at girls? and also special events and labs for women only?
not really, Jerome is actually right because pd is a cool thing to share. i just ask not to trivialise words and subjects and to say the truth, there are actually many women doing free software and pd but perhaps we are not so verbose.
anyway, feel free to contribute and propose your own documentation.
my own documentation? no way, I first need to learn pd ;-) but I´m going through 'learning pd' thread and pddp folks work also the documentation of pidip they do at hangar.org . It will take time but thanks for the invitation
ciao, sevy
chao, alejandra
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On Sun, 23 Sep 2007, pueblo@mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
yes is basically valid for all people that are not white males or in other words for all the people that have different cognitive styles than the dominant western white model.
I can fetch you quite a few women and/or arabic or latino or whatever you want, who are perfectly comfortable with so-called western white male cognitive style, that they themselves are profs holding doctorates.
Meanwhile, when I was in university, I could hardly focus, I had a wandering mind, a tendency to nap in the classroom, trouble actually getting myself to attend classes, and most of all, I was much more concerned by knowledge in general than by actual grades, and by cross-course reasonings than by sticking to one course's assumptions and biases and blind-spots and to whatever the prof says.
Meanwhile, the often-reported fact is that girls score better in schools and you have magazine reports on what's the matter with the boys in schools because they underperform and fail so much.
19-year-old undergraduates in QC are 40% male, 60% female (figures of 2003, published in 2007).
A decade ago, for undergraduates regardless of age: In Medicine/Dentistry/etc (grouped together) it was 77% female. In Litterature it was 72%, in Biology it was 58%, in Chemistry 44%, and in Math 40%, just to give a few examples. The report I have doesn't say the figure for Psychology, but looking at "Class of 2004"-type portraits of UdeM it is obviously around 95%.
So I don't quite think that the main dividing lines in education methodologies are at all involving gender issues. Women seem happier in the current school system than men are.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal QC Canada
Well, one difference that I have noticed in my years is that men are
much less supportive and enabling in communities than women, and men
tend to be more confrontational. I don't know why, it could be
cultural, upbringing, genetics, biology, whatever. I'd like to see
that change because I think everyone will benefit.
I think this thread more or less illustrates the disparity. :D
That's my two bits...
.hc
On Sep 23, 2007, at 6:14 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Sun, 23 Sep 2007, pueblo@mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
yes is basically valid for all people that are not white males or
in other words for all the people that have different cognitive
styles than the dominant western white model.I can fetch you quite a few women and/or arabic or latino or
whatever you want, who are perfectly comfortable with so-called
western white male cognitive style, that they themselves are profs
holding doctorates.Meanwhile, when I was in university, I could hardly focus, I had a
wandering mind, a tendency to nap in the classroom, trouble
actually getting myself to attend classes, and most of all, I was
much more concerned by knowledge in general than by actual grades,
and by cross-course reasonings than by sticking to one course's
assumptions and biases and blind-spots and to whatever the prof says.Meanwhile, the often-reported fact is that girls score better in
schools and you have magazine reports on what's the matter with the
boys in schools because they underperform and fail so much.19-year-old undergraduates in QC are 40% male, 60% female (figures
of 2003, published in 2007).A decade ago, for undergraduates regardless of age: In Medicine/ Dentistry/etc (grouped together) it was 77% female. In Litterature
it was 72%, in Biology it was 58%, in Chemistry 44%, and in Math
40%, just to give a few examples. The report I have doesn't say the
figure for Psychology, but looking at "Class of 2004"-type
portraits of UdeM it is obviously around 95%.So I don't quite think that the main dividing lines in education
methodologies are at all involving gender issues. Women seem
happier in the current school system than men are._ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal QC
Canada_______________________________________________ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
¡El pueblo unido jamás será vencido!
On Sun, 23 Sep 2007, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Well, one difference that I have noticed in my years is that men are much less supportive and enabling in communities than women, and men tend to be more confrontational.
If women are that more supportive and enabling, then by all means they should invade pd-list. And I don't mean just lurking...
If confrontation is necessary for people to test their new ideas, then by all means women should be more confrontational (of that kind of confrontation, of course...).
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal QC Canada
It's hard to miss the fact that there is a lot of animosity in mailing list environments... some of it accidental, but nevertheless real. It's not only females that find such an approach distasteful (FULL DISCLOSURE: I have also been guilty of such an approach).
People who need information can get over that, however. What is most lacking, in my mind, is a more wholistic approach to dataflow programming, one that looks at aesthetic issues
ie. what contradictions arise when expressing the irrational via the rational???
another one: how can coding practices take into account the body??? not just the performer's body, but the coder/programmer's body. and does it make any difference???
~David
On 9/28/07, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
On Sun, 23 Sep 2007, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Well, one difference that I have noticed in my years is that men are much less supportive and enabling in communities than women, and men tend to be more confrontational.
If women are that more supportive and enabling, then by all means they should invade pd-list. And I don't mean just lurking...
If confrontation is necessary for people to test their new ideas, then by all means women should be more confrontational (of that kind of confrontation, of course...).
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal QC Canada _______________________________________________ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, David Powers wrote:
It's hard to miss the fact that there is a lot of animosity in mailing list environments... some of it accidental, but nevertheless real.
But I especially was thinking about those things that are difficult to talk about because it's easy to read it as confrontation and animosity and flamebait, and then when softening the tone, it reads like it's to be taken lightly, as a joke that is nothing but a joke, or as something of little concern or just drowned in political correctness. The middle ground is often thin and sometimes absent.
It's not only females that find such an approach distasteful
I don't believe that it's anywhere close to the main reason why they don't write often. They don't write often because they don't get involved in that kind of topics. In general they don't dive into pd.
People who need information can get over that, however. What is most lacking, in my mind, is a more wholistic approach to dataflow programming, one that looks at aesthetic issues
Ok, you might be wanting to say "what it fits into" rather than "what it is made of" or "how does it work" or "how do its pieces fit into dataflow" ?
ie. what contradictions arise when expressing the irrational via the rational???
I'm not following you. You would need to give some concrete examples.
another one: how can coding practices take into account the body??? not just the performer's body, but the coder/programmer's body. and does it make any difference???
I do half of my coding standing up. It's better for keeping back muscles in shape.
You probably mean something else, but I can't figure out what.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal QC Canada
On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, David Powers wrote:
It's hard to miss the fact that there is a lot of animosity in mailing list environments...
Bollocks there is.
:)
that kind of topics. In general they don't dive into pd.
Sounds like you should check out Nina Waismans work. Had the pleasure of watching her show in Germany this week. We spoke after the concert and she told me she uses Pd for her body transducers w/ dance act and for installation work.
cheers, andy
On Mon, Oct 01, 2007 at 11:58:51AM +0100, Andy Farnell wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:21:34 -0400 (EDT)
that kind of topics. In general they don't dive into pd.
Sounds like you should check out Nina Waismans work. Had the pleasure of watching her show in Germany this week. We spoke after the concert and she told me she uses Pd for her body transducers w/ dance act and for installation work.
Second anecdotal datapoint:
At Electrofringe last week the only other Pd user I met was not yet subscribed to the list, so I told her about what a great friendly place the Pd list is. (I hope I don't have to eat my words.)
Best,
Chris.
hala,
yes is basically valid for all people that are not white males or in other words for all the people that have different cognitive styles than the dominant western white model.
i don't see any sexist/racist remark here, just wondering if pd should be teached in different ways ( and in tongues )..
when we are now in a phase of cristalisation/normalisation, that's a question to ask, but best is to take the initiative, imho...
sevy
I find these remarks and attitudes offensive. Sexism and racism have no place here.
On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 22:49:30 +0200 (CEST) pueblo@mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
i'm not sure what the subject of this thread is, if there's not so many women in pd because the documentation is not clear enough? isn's that valid for men too?
yes is basically valid for all people that are not white males or in other words for all the people that have different cognitive styles than the dominant western white model.
and should there be a special documentation aimed at girls? and also special events and labs for women only?
not really, Jerome is actually right because pd is a cool thing to share. i just ask not to trivialise words and subjects and to say the truth, there are actually many women doing free software and pd but perhaps we are not so verbose.
anyway, feel free to contribute and propose your own documentation.
my own documentation? no way, I first need to learn pd ;-) but I´m going through 'learning pd' thread and pddp folks work also the documentation of pidip they do at hangar.org . It will take time but thanks for the invitation
ciao, sevy
chao, alejandra
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
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