So I am working on sound for a permanent installation involving 6
speakers in a large circular room. Are 6 speakers enough to do
anything useful using ambisonics? Or am I better off using the
simpler vbap?
I am just starting to understand the basics of ambisonics, thanks to
Florian's intro. I will be programmatically controlling the position
of the samples, since it will be synced up with a video. So I don't
think I really need the GUIs like cubemixer.
Are there any simple, working demos of the IEM ambi stuff?
.hc
I have the audacity to believe that peoples everywhere can have three
meals a day for their bodies, education and culture for their minds,
and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits. - Martin
Luther King, Jr.
it depends on the size of the room and whether you want surrounding sound only in a plane or also in a sphere/half sphere. usually you want 8 speakers for a smooth circle around a listener. marius.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
So I am working on sound for a permanent installation involving 6
speakers in a large circular room. Are 6 speakers enough to do
anything useful using ambisonics? Or am I better off using the
simpler vbap?I am just starting to understand the basics of ambisonics, thanks to
Florian's intro. I will be programmatically controlling the position
of the samples, since it will be synced up with a video. So I don't
think I really need the GUIs like cubemixer.Are there any simple, working demos of the IEM ambi stuff?
.hc
I have the audacity to believe that peoples everywhere can have three
meals a day for their bodies, education and culture for their minds,
and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits. - Martin
Luther King, Jr.
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
hi Hans,
VBAP is probably better if you expect people to move around in the
installation space and you wish to pan individual sounds in different
directions.
First order ambisonics works fine on 6 speakers, but it would be more
suited to immersive, enveloping ambient sounds, or a more constrained
audience.
Horizontal VBAP will use only the nearest 2 speakers to simulate a
sound in one direction, while ambisonics decoding will generally use
all speakers for the same simulated sound source. Thus VBAP sounds
will often seem to "snap to speaker positions" when panning around the
circle, whereas ambisonic panned sounds will not reveal the individual
speakers as much, but the illusion will not work as well away from the
centre of the room.
I like the description I heard recently from Bruce Wiggins on the
difference between VBAP and ambisonics - that VBAP is exactly correct
for panning a sound when it's in the direction of a speaker, but quite
wrong when panning exactly in-between two speakers. Ambisonics on the
other hand is "equally wrong" (to a lesser degree than VBAP between
speakers) for a sound in any direction.
In many cases, the best spatialisation solution could be a mixture of
both VBAP (for directional sounds) and ambisonic (for spatial
ambience) - unless the audience isn't able to get too close to the
speakers, or you use higher order ambisonics.
The IEM ambi stuff is all in Pd extended browser... I guess you've
seen that.
I've attached some patches that I have for encoding to quad.
Only problem is the latest 2 releases of Pd extended seem to have
problems loading mtx_*~ object.
I got it working with Pd extended 0.39.3
Output is for 4 speakers, but it's easy enough to change the speaker
specifications in the nmg_bf2quad~ abstraction - go into the pd calc-
matrix subpatch, make up a new speaker spec, print the decode matrix
and copy that back into the patch.
Hope this helps.
Nick Mariette http://soundsorange.net
On Oct 6, 2008, at 6:39 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
So I am working on sound for a permanent installation involving 6 speakers in a large circular room. Are 6 speakers enough to do anything useful using ambisonics? Or am I better off using the simpler vbap?
I am just starting to understand the basics of ambisonics, thanks to Florian's intro. I will be programmatically controlling the position of the samples, since it will be synced up with a video. So I don't think I really need the GUIs like cubemixer.
Are there any simple, working demos of the IEM ambi stuff?
.hc
I have the audacity to believe that peoples everywhere can have three meals a day for their bodies, education and culture for their minds, and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
don't know if the zip file got through or not. Here are text versions. hopefully they come through ok. nick
On Oct 6, 2008, at 12:18 PM, Nicholas Mariette wrote:
hi Hans,
VBAP is probably better if you expect people to move around in the
installation space and you wish to pan individual sounds in
different directions. First order ambisonics works fine on 6 speakers, but it would be
more suited to immersive, enveloping ambient sounds, or a more
constrained audience.Horizontal VBAP will use only the nearest 2 speakers to simulate a
sound in one direction, while ambisonics decoding will generally use
all speakers for the same simulated sound source. Thus VBAP sounds
will often seem to "snap to speaker positions" when panning around
the circle, whereas ambisonic panned sounds will not reveal the
individual speakers as much, but the illusion will not work as well
away from the centre of the room.I like the description I heard recently from Bruce Wiggins on the
difference between VBAP and ambisonics - that VBAP is exactly
correct for panning a sound when it's in the direction of a speaker,
but quite wrong when panning exactly in-between two speakers.
Ambisonics on the other hand is "equally wrong" (to a lesser degree
than VBAP between speakers) for a sound in any direction.In many cases, the best spatialisation solution could be a mixture
of both VBAP (for directional sounds) and ambisonic (for spatial
ambience) - unless the audience isn't able to get too close to the
speakers, or you use higher order ambisonics.The IEM ambi stuff is all in Pd extended browser... I guess you've
seen that. I've attached some patches that I have for encoding to quad.Only problem is the latest 2 releases of Pd extended seem to have
problems loading mtx_*~ object. I got it working with Pd extended 0.39.3Output is for 4 speakers, but it's easy enough to change the speaker
specifications in the nmg_bf2quad~ abstraction - go into the pd
calc-matrix subpatch, make up a new speaker spec, print the decode
matrix and copy that back into the patch.Hope this helps.
Nick Mariette http://soundsorange.net
<test_ambi.zip>
On Oct 6, 2008, at 6:39 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
So I am working on sound for a permanent installation involving 6 speakers in a large circular room. Are 6 speakers enough to do anything useful using ambisonics? Or am I better off using the simpler vbap?
I am just starting to understand the basics of ambisonics, thanks to Florian's intro. I will be programmatically controlling the position of the samples, since it will be synced up with a video. So I don't think I really need the GUIs like cubemixer.
Are there any simple, working demos of the IEM ambi stuff?
.hc
I have the audacity to believe that peoples everywhere can have three meals a day for their bodies, education and culture for their minds, and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
I would say it depends mainly on where the audience is situated. If
they are supposed to wander around off-center 6 speakers might not be
enough in a larger room.
It also depends very much on the speakers, whether they have a narrow
or wide diffusion angle and on other characteristics (e.g. whether
they are horn-loaded etc.). Depending on the sounds material, your
speaker type and the room you might also want to have one or two
subwoofers.
I'm not an expert on ambisonics but i had the experience that it
doesn't work well in rooms which are not acoustically dry in which
case you get a lot of ugly phase cancellations due to wall
reflections. VBAP doesn't seem to be that sensitive in that respect.
I guess that for the small number of speakers VBAP is the better
choice - you might want to experience with the spread factor there to
avoid too much focusing on one speaker.
I'm curious about the opinion of the IEM and SARC experts.
all the best, Thomas
Am 06.10.2008 um 06:39 schrieb Hans-Christoph Steiner:
So I am working on sound for a permanent installation involving 6 speakers in a large circular room. Are 6 speakers enough to do anything useful using ambisonics? Or am I better off using the simpler vbap?
I am just starting to understand the basics of ambisonics, thanks to Florian's intro. I will be programmatically controlling the position of the samples, since it will be synced up with a video. So I don't think I really need the GUIs like cubemixer.
Are there any simple, working demos of the IEM ambi stuff?
.hc
--
I have the audacity to believe that peoples everywhere can have three meals a day for their bodies, education and culture for their minds, and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
one more thing:
If you want to position your virtual sound sources _inside_ the
circle of speakers i am not sure if this is possible with ambisonics
at all - and it's also difficult for VBAP depending on the
triangulation it uses... you might want to check or manually specify it.
In such a case I personally would want to have some center speakers
and would have two VBAP-driven rings (in the middle and on the
periphery) between which i would do conventional panning.
I once used that i the case of a planetarium where the audience is
situated in a ring between the center and the circular wall. I had 3
center speakers facing to the wall, 5 peripheral speakers facing to
the center and two subwoofers.
all the best, Thomas
Am 06.10.2008 um 06:39 schrieb Hans-Christoph Steiner:
So I am working on sound for a permanent installation involving 6 speakers in a large circular room. Are 6 speakers enough to do anything useful using ambisonics? Or am I better off using the simpler vbap?
I am just starting to understand the basics of ambisonics, thanks to Florian's intro. I will be programmatically controlling the position of the samples, since it will be synced up with a video. So I don't think I really need the GUIs like cubemixer.
Are there any simple, working demos of the IEM ambi stuff?
.hc
--
I have the audacity to believe that peoples everywhere can have three meals a day for their bodies, education and culture for their minds, and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
for panning inside the array, nothing other than WFS will give you a
reasonable source image inside the room.
often for ambisonics, you'd just xfade from the XYZ channels more into
the W (omni) channel within a certain radius.
same with VBAP - just pan all speakers. (or turn spread all the way up).
Nick
On Oct 6, 2008, at 12:33 PM, Thomas Grill wrote:
one more thing: If you want to position your virtual sound sources _inside_ the circle of speakers i am not sure if this is possible with ambisonics at all - and it's also difficult for VBAP depending on the triangulation it uses... you might want to check or manually specify
it. In such a case I personally would want to have some center speakers and would have two VBAP-driven rings (in the middle and on the periphery) between which i would do conventional panning. I once used that i the case of a planetarium where the audience is situated in a ring between the center and the circular wall. I had 3 center speakers facing to the wall, 5 peripheral speakers facing to the center and two subwoofers. all the best, ThomasAm 06.10.2008 um 06:39 schrieb Hans-Christoph Steiner:
So I am working on sound for a permanent installation involving 6 speakers in a large circular room. Are 6 speakers enough to do anything useful using ambisonics? Or am I better off using the simpler vbap?
I am just starting to understand the basics of ambisonics, thanks to Florian's intro. I will be programmatically controlling the position of the samples, since it will be synced up with a video. So I don't think I really need the GUIs like cubemixer.
Are there any simple, working demos of the IEM ambi stuff?
.hc
--
I have the audacity to believe that peoples everywhere can have three meals a day for their bodies, education and culture for their minds, and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
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Thanks for the advice, definitely useful. The speaker and room setup
are fixed, I can't change that at all, so I have to make the best of
it. I think I'll start with VBAP since it is easy, and seems lighter
than ambi. The sound environment that I am working on now will be
made of 6000 sounds moving around, so lightweight is good :)
.hc
On Oct 6, 2008, at 7:30 AM, Nicholas Mariette wrote:
for panning inside the array, nothing other than WFS will give you
a reasonable source image inside the room. often for ambisonics, you'd just xfade from the XYZ channels more
into the W (omni) channel within a certain radius. same with VBAP - just pan all speakers. (or turn spread all the way
up). NickOn Oct 6, 2008, at 12:33 PM, Thomas Grill wrote:
one more thing: If you want to position your virtual sound sources _inside_ the circle of speakers i am not sure if this is possible with ambisonics at all - and it's also difficult for VBAP depending on the triangulation it uses... you might want to check or manually
specify it. In such a case I personally would want to have some center speakers and would have two VBAP-driven rings (in the middle and on the periphery) between which i would do conventional panning. I once used that i the case of a planetarium where the audience is situated in a ring between the center and the circular wall. I had 3 center speakers facing to the wall, 5 peripheral speakers facing to the center and two subwoofers. all the best, ThomasAm 06.10.2008 um 06:39 schrieb Hans-Christoph Steiner:
So I am working on sound for a permanent installation involving 6 speakers in a large circular room. Are 6 speakers enough to do anything useful using ambisonics? Or am I better off using the simpler vbap?
I am just starting to understand the basics of ambisonics, thanks to Florian's intro. I will be programmatically controlling the
position of the samples, since it will be synced up with a video. So I don't think I really need the GUIs like cubemixer.Are there any simple, working demos of the IEM ambi stuff?
.hc
--
I have the audacity to believe that peoples everywhere can have
three meals a day for their bodies, education and culture for their minds, and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
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Mistrust authority - promote decentralization. - the hacker ethic
-
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
marius schebella -
Nicholas Mariette -
Thomas Grill