Hi,
I checked in some changes to Memento into CVS:
removed all prepend from cyclone and instead use [prepent] which is just [list prepend]-[list trim]. prepent is included in Memento now
replace OSCprepend with a Miller Vanilla version (included as well, taken from [list]-abs)
added [list] to commun's outlet to get automatic type conversions. commun now will output proper list-messages. This shouldn't but it may result in subtle bugs with older patches!
some additional features to careGUI, but a careGUI2 is in the works.
Memento now doesn't need any externals besides [pool] and [OSCroute] anymore.
TODO:
Luke, I didn't forget about your svxdir changes, they will follow soon.
Parameter-space feedback as discussed with Ben Bogart isn't forgotten, too.
But first a cleanup of the ugly patchcord mess is necessary to comply with the "footils.org readability dogma 2.0"
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
Cheers to that! And just in time for Pd-0.39.2-extended.
~Kyle
On 4/28/07, Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org wrote:
Hi,
I checked in some changes to Memento into CVS:
removed all prepend from cyclone and instead use [prepent] which is just [list prepend]-[list trim]. prepent is included in Memento now
replace OSCprepend with a Miller Vanilla version (included as well, taken from [list]-abs)
added [list] to commun's outlet to get automatic type conversions. commun now will output proper list-messages. This shouldn't but it may result in subtle bugs with older patches!
some additional features to careGUI, but a careGUI2 is in the works.
Memento now doesn't need any externals besides [pool] and [OSCroute] anymore.
TODO:
Luke, I didn't forget about your svxdir changes, they will follow soon.
Parameter-space feedback as discussed with Ben Bogart isn't forgotten, too.
But first a cleanup of the ugly patchcord mess is necessary to comply with the "footils.org readability dogma 2.0"
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Just a reminder, in order for these changes to be included in
Pd-0.39.2-extended, they'll have to be checked into the branch-
v0-39-2-extended branch.
At this point, only bug fixes should be checked into that branch,
since we are about to release it. New features, especially ones that
might break backwards compatibility should not be included in this
release.
.hc
On Apr 28, 2007, at 12:15 PM, Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
Cheers to that! And just in time for Pd-0.39.2-extended.
~Kyle
On 4/28/07, Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org wrote:
Hi,
I checked in some changes to Memento into CVS:
- removed all prepend from cyclone and instead use [prepent] which
is just [list prepend]-[list trim]. prepent is included in Memento now
replace OSCprepend with a Miller Vanilla version (included as well, taken from [list]-abs)
added [list] to commun's outlet to get automatic type conversions. commun now will output proper list-messages. This shouldn't but it may result in subtle bugs with older patches!
some additional features to careGUI, but a careGUI2 is in the works.
Memento now doesn't need any externals besides [pool] and [OSCroute] anymore.
TODO:
Luke, I didn't forget about your svxdir changes, they will follow soon.
Parameter-space feedback as discussed with Ben Bogart isn't forgotten, too.
But first a cleanup of the ugly patchcord mess is necessary to comply with the "footils.org readability dogma 2.0"
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
--
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(((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())()))) (())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((()))) ))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________ _____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______ ((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO
Terrorism is not an enemy. It cannot be defeated. It's a tactic.
It's about as sensible to say we declare war on night attacks and
expect we're going to win that war. We're not going to win the war
on terrorism. - retired U.S. Army general, William Odom
Aye Aye, cheers Frank, it really is worthwhile work to simplify and neaten this up!
On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:15:32 -0500 "Kyle Klipowicz" kyleklip@gmail.com wrote:
Cheers to that! And just in time for Pd-0.39.2-extended.
~Kyle
On 4/28/07, Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org wrote:
Hi,
I checked in some changes to Memento into CVS:
removed all prepend from cyclone and instead use [prepent] which is just [list prepend]-[list trim]. prepent is included in Memento now
replace OSCprepend with a Miller Vanilla version (included as well, taken from [list]-abs)
added [list] to commun's outlet to get automatic type conversions. commun now will output proper list-messages. This shouldn't but it may result in subtle bugs with older patches!
some additional features to careGUI, but a careGUI2 is in the works.
Memento now doesn't need any externals besides [pool] and [OSCroute] anymore.
TODO:
Luke, I didn't forget about your svxdir changes, they will follow soon.
Parameter-space feedback as discussed with Ben Bogart isn't forgotten, too.
But first a cleanup of the ugly patchcord mess is necessary to comply with the "footils.org readability dogma 2.0"
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
--
http://theradioproject.com http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com
(((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())()))) (())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((()))) ))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________ _____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______ ((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Sat, 2007-04-28 at 10:03 +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote:
- But first a cleanup of the ugly patchcord mess is necessary to comply with the "footils.org readability dogma 2.0"
url, please! i'd really like to read it, but google didn't give me any results, neither did a search for 'readability' or 'dogma' on footils.org.
cheers roman
Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de
Hallo, Roman Haefeli hat gesagt: // Roman Haefeli wrote:
On Sat, 2007-04-28 at 10:03 +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote:
- But first a cleanup of the ugly patchcord mess is necessary to comply with the "footils.org readability dogma 2.0"
url, please! i'd really like to read it, but google didn't give me any results, neither did a search for 'readability' or 'dogma' on footils.org.
Sorry, that actually was just a joke: there is no written dogma. ;)
However if you look for example at my [list]-abs objects: They are dogma compatible as far as I see.
Maybe I should make one up now:
The Left Wing Dogma
Patchcords must be "left-aligned": cords leaving a left outlet or entering a left inlet must be strictly vertical.
The Right Wing Dogma
Idiomatic or pattern-like constructs like counters however should grow to the right and not to the bottom:
Good: [f 0]x[+ 1]x[mod 10]
Bad: [f ] X [+ 1] X [mod 10]
The Miller's Crossing Dogma
Crossing patchcords have to be avoided, unless this conflicts with The Left or Right Wing Dogma.
The Trigger Dogma
Only "a" and "b" are allowed in trigger objects.
The Short Dogma
"a" is better than "anything" (unless it conflicts with Left, Right or Crossing Dogma). "t" is better than "trigger". "t" is less of an object, and more of a patch cord. Sparse is better than dense.
(Reasoning: Screen space is expensive. But more importantly: Pd is a graphical language, Pd patches aren't read word by word, but as as collection of object groups layed out in certain reoccuring patterns or idioms. [f 0]X[+ 1] is such an idiom. [float 0]X[+ 1] looks less familiar.)
The Black and White Dogma
[cnv] is bad, "comment" is good.
The Execution Order Dogma
Abstractions and subpatches have to fire right to left.
Maybe I'll think up some more of these later.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
On Sun, 2007-04-29 at 17:58 +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo, Roman Haefeli hat gesagt: // Roman Haefeli wrote:
On Sat, 2007-04-28 at 10:03 +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote:
- But first a cleanup of the ugly patchcord mess is necessary to comply with the "footils.org readability dogma 2.0"
url, please! i'd really like to read it, but google didn't give me any results, neither did a search for 'readability' or 'dogma' on footils.org.
Sorry, that actually was just a joke: there is no written dogma. ;)
haha, i see..... though, thank you for having started to write one. ;-)
roman
___________________________________________________________ Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de
These are great! ~Kyle
On 4/29/07, Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org wrote:
Hallo, Roman Haefeli hat gesagt: // Roman Haefeli wrote:
On Sat, 2007-04-28 at 10:03 +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote:
- But first a cleanup of the ugly patchcord mess is necessary to comply with the "footils.org readability dogma 2.0"
url, please! i'd really like to read it, but google didn't give me any results, neither did a search for 'readability' or 'dogma' on footils.org.
Sorry, that actually was just a joke: there is no written dogma. ;)
However if you look for example at my [list]-abs objects: They are dogma compatible as far as I see.
Maybe I should make one up now:
The Left Wing Dogma
Patchcords must be "left-aligned": cords leaving a left outlet or entering a left inlet must be strictly vertical.
The Right Wing Dogma
Idiomatic or pattern-like constructs like counters however should grow to the right and not to the bottom:
Good: [f 0]x[+ 1]x[mod 10]
Bad: [f ] X [+ 1] X [mod 10]
The Miller's Crossing Dogma
Crossing patchcords have to be avoided, unless this conflicts with The Left or Right Wing Dogma.
The Trigger Dogma
Only "a" and "b" are allowed in trigger objects.
The Short Dogma
"a" is better than "anything" (unless it conflicts with Left, Right or Crossing Dogma). "t" is better than "trigger". "t" is less of an object, and more of a patch cord. Sparse is better than dense.
(Reasoning: Screen space is expensive. But more importantly: Pd is a graphical language, Pd patches aren't read word by word, but as as collection of object groups layed out in certain reoccuring patterns or idioms. [f 0]X[+ 1] is such an idiom. [float 0]X[+ 1] looks less familiar.)
The Black and White Dogma
[cnv] is bad, "comment" is good.
The Execution Order Dogma
Abstractions and subpatches have to fire right to left.
Maybe I'll think up some more of these later.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Sun, Apr 29, 2007 at 05:58:17PM +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote:
The Trigger Dogma
Only "a" and "b" are allowed in trigger objects.
I still don't get the rationale for this one.
*cue dogma war*
;)
Chris.
Easy: keep your type casting separate from your routing. Also, I recall Frank showing how using a [t b b b a a a b a b a a ... etc] construct is handy so that you don't have to rewire everything if you add a bit of new patch to your creation.
~Kyle
On 4/29/07, Chris McCormick chris@mccormick.cx wrote:
On Sun, Apr 29, 2007 at 05:58:17PM +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote:
The Trigger Dogma
Only "a" and "b" are allowed in trigger objects.
I still don't get the rationale for this one.
*cue dogma war*
;)
Chris.
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Hallo, Chris McCormick hat gesagt: // Chris McCormick wrote:
On Sun, Apr 29, 2007 at 05:58:17PM +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote:
The Trigger Dogma
Only "a" and "b" are allowed in trigger objects.
I still don't get the rationale for this one.
Besides the seperation of casting and routing, that Kyle mentioned: Why would anyone have to to use anything else in a trigger?
One possible use for other arguments would be [t f l] when you're too lazy to use [list split 1] but that's not very readably IMO.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
This is all quite good. But i have one comment wrt. the Black and
White Dogma
On 29/04/2007, at 17.58, Frank Barknecht wrote:
The Black and White Dogma
[cnv] is bad, "comment" is good.
In the reasoning from The Short Dogma it uses the argument that
Pd is a graphical language, Pd patches aren't read word by word,
but as as collection of object groups layed out in certain reoccuring patterns or idioms.
why i think it make much sense to use coloured backgrounds (or [cnv])
as part of the graphical language to improve readability. It should
of cause not conflict with the other dogma's, but instead be compared
to using tab-indention in written code.
My two bit.
Hallo, Steffen hat gesagt: // Steffen wrote:
This is all quite good. But i have one comment wrt. the Black and
White DogmaOn 29/04/2007, at 17.58, Frank Barknecht wrote:
The Black and White Dogma
[cnv] is bad, "comment" is good.
In the reasoning from The Short Dogma it uses the argument that
Pd is a graphical language, Pd patches aren't read word by word,
but as as collection of object groups layed out in certain reoccuring patterns or idioms.why i think it make much sense to use coloured backgrounds (or [cnv])
as part of the graphical language to improve readability. It should
of cause not conflict with the other dogma's, but instead be compared
to using tab-indention in written code.
I forgot this one:
Dogma Zero
You should only follow your own Dogmata.
Every self-respecting Dogma-collection has to be provocative (and shouldn't be taken too serious). The B&W Dogma definitely is a style question. IMO color is best used to indicate where the action is: sliders, toggles etc.
As a comment replacement [cnv] aren't that good, for one because you can_only_write_with_funny_underscores and more importantly, because they are cumbersome to create and edit. Comments should come easy, otherwise people won't comment.
And for emphasising certain code paths, subpatches probably are even better:
[inlet] | [pd filter-notes] | [pd transpose] | [pd harmonize] | [outlet]
I guess I should extend the B&W Dogma like this:
The Black and White Dogma
[cnv] is bad. "comment" is good. [pd] is better.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
On 30/04/2007, at 10.20, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Dogma Zero
You should only follow your own Dogmata.
Surely. But sharing ideas about what is good still is a good thing.
It helps form individual ideas about it. If a majority of folks agree
on a certain style then it makes a(n unofficial) standard. Thats why
i bumped in. And thanks again for sharing.
Every self-respecting Dogma-collection has to be provocative (and shouldn't be taken too serious).
As above. Of cause :-)
The B&W Dogma definitely is a style question
I think it all is about style (with in (this) culture).
IMO color is best used to indicate where the action is [...]
Agreed. That's what i tent to do my self.
And for emphasising certain code paths, subpatches probably are
even better [...]
Sometimes though im inconsistent with it, as I sometimes find it
nice to have "the guts" right at hand, and at the same time have the
"conventional"/obvious controls (for that given patch) highlighted.
Also some help patches uses [cvn] quite clever to highlight and
separate the object from the needed surroundings, which i a learning
situation is better then hiding the surroundings in a subpatch.
This makes this email a loop, as I'm now ready (or you/one might find
it appropriate) to be refer me to Dogma Zero again.
I'll exit the loop instead.
Best, Steffen
Frank Barknecht wrote:
Comments should come easy, otherwise people won't comment.
with that in mind,
why can't i write multi-line comments with newlines in them that actually stay newlines when i go and re-open the patch tomorrow?
this makes me less likely to write verbose comments, knowing that i have to stop typing and go squiggle-5 mouse move click type at the end of every line. and it makes editing a complete cow.
(applause)
~Kyle
On 4/30/07, Damian Stewart damian@frey.co.nz wrote:
Frank Barknecht wrote:
Comments should come easy, otherwise people won't comment.
with that in mind,
why can't i write multi-line comments with newlines in them that actually stay newlines when i go and re-open the patch tomorrow?
this makes me less likely to write verbose comments, knowing that i have to stop typing and go squiggle-5 mouse move click type at the end of every line. and it makes editing a complete cow.
-- Damian Stewart
f r e y live music with machines http://www.frey.co.nz http://www.myspace.com/freyed
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Great news!
On 4/28/07, Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org wrote:
TODO:
- Luke, I didn't forget about your svxdir changes, they will follow soon.
Way cool. I have some further notes on the use of Polaroid in conjuction with Memento when working with many abstractions (and duplicates thereof). I'd maybe like to do an "advanced RRadicalism" document/patch, covering more advanced usage of the Memento objects and RRadical design - I've got a pretty complex setup at this point and it defintely required many aha moments to make it all work!
That actually leads me to another proposition: further establishing some conventions for object collections with complex inter-routing, such as passing along $0s or /names to groups of objects. I haven't had time recently to work on my patches, so I'm a bit foggy as to what I'm saying here... Hopefully Chris or Frank will get the gist of what I'm talking about (from their own experience developing collections) to run with this ball : ). (Or, I'll come back in a few days after some reimmersion in my abstraction collection with a better developed proposal).
Anyhow, glad to hear that Memento is getting attention!
-
Andy Farnell -
Chris McCormick -
Damian Stewart -
Frank Barknecht -
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
Kyle Klipowicz -
Luke Iannini (pd) -
Roman Haefeli -
Steffen