Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 11:22:29 +0100 From: Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org Subject: Re: [PD] Re: pure == slow, impure == fast ? was purepd To: pd-list@iem.at
Hallo, Tim Blechmann hat gesagt: // Tim Blechmann wrote:
Of course we all know, that patched stuff id Pd is slower than coding stuff in C. Still we patch in Pd, why do we do it? Because performance is not all that matters, ease of programming, the ability to change an implementation on the fly etc. - all that is important as well and it is the major reason, scripting languages are taking over large parts of software development: The performance of the programmer is becoming the much more important bottleneck than the performance of the CPU.
Most importantly though: Not everyone has every external installed. This is a real problem which I learned the hard way with RRADical, where in the beginning I said to myself: Go crazy and use every external there is to do the work. This was a bad mistake, because now all the time people come asking (me) how to compile the needed externals on Windows and I cannot help them. That's why I'm working on replacing most of the stuff used in RRADical with builtin objects. Unfortunatly there is nothing that can replace [pool] and [OSC] in Pd yet, and I don't want to ditch OSC support in RRADical and I cannot ditch [pool], which is a constant pool of trouble for non-technically inclined users. :(
Which begs the question; why isn't OSC functionality included in Pd canonical? After all, OSC is the new defacto standard in control messages isn't it? And Midi functionality is included already in Pd.
Miller, perhaps you could tell us if there is a plan to include OSC in Pd in the future?
Frank I think yr on the right track in terms of making the user experience easier. Like it or not, users want to download one binary and install it, or apt-get install it. Do you see it being possible to replace pool functionality with the new list and data structures stuff?
Best,
Chris.
chris@mccormick.cx http://mccormick.cx
I think this has something to do with liscensing compatibility. Pd isn't GNU (and OSC is?) That is also why expr is an external rather than an integrated object. (Correct me if I'm wrong!)
~Kyle
On 11/20/05, Chris McCormick chris@mccormick.cx wrote:
Which begs the question; why isn't OSC functionality included in Pd canonical? After all, OSC is the new defacto standard in control messages isn't it? And Midi functionality is included already in Pd.
-- http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com (((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())()))) (())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((()))) ))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________ _____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______ ((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO
On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 01:17:04AM -0600, Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
I think this has something to do with liscensing compatibility. Pd isn't GNU (and OSC is?) That is also why expr is an external rather than an integrated object. (Correct me if I'm wrong!)
If that's the case I guess it could still be included in the same way that expr is.
Best,
Chris.
chris@mccormick.cx http://mccormick.cx
On Nov 21, 2005, at 5:59 PM, Chris McCormick wrote:
On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 01:17:04AM -0600, Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
I think this has something to do with liscensing compatibility. Pd isn't GNU (and OSC is?) That is also why expr is an external rather than an integrated object. (Correct me if I'm wrong!)
If that's the case I guess it could still be included in the same way that expr is.
I am pretty sure that OSC is released under BSD license. It does come
out of UC Berkeley after all...
.hc
http://at.or.at/hans/
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I am pretty sure that OSC is released under BSD license. It does come
out of UC Berkeley after all...
The license of OSC is fine (now), it could be shipped with Pd immediatly.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005, Frank Barknecht wrote:
The license of OSC is fine (now), it could be shipped with Pd immediatly.
The license is fine, but the code is terrible. It would be better to have a fresh implementation or something based on liblo.
Günter
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
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Hallo, gÃŒnter geiger hat gesagt: // gÃŒnter geiger wrote:
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005, Frank Barknecht wrote:
The license of OSC is fine (now), it could be shipped with Pd immediatly.
The license is fine, but the code is terrible. It would be better to have a fresh implementation or something based on liblo.
Indeed. ;(
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
There are many things that I would like to see in the OSC for PD that are not in OSCx. What is liblo? Is there a standard OSC lib that impliments all the goodies, including the parameter query stuff?
b.
günter geiger wrote:
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005, Frank Barknecht wrote:
The license of OSC is fine (now), it could be shipped with Pd immediatly.
The license is fine, but the code is terrible. It would be better to have a fresh implementation or something based on liblo.
Günter
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
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There are many things that I would like to see in the OSC for PD that What is liblo?
-See: http://plugin.org.uk/liblo/
AvS
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .....................................................................
` |Schreck Ensemble . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +
` |# -laboratory for live electro-acoustic music- # |
| http://www.schreck.nl/ |
| http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/ |
` *===========================================================++
` |Compositions http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/compo.html |
` |Samples http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/samp.html |
` |Patches http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/pat.html |
` |Videos http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/video.html |
` |Scores http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/scores.html |
*===========================================================++
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .....................................................................
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Also, while we are at it, [OSCroute], [sendOSC], and [dumpOSC] aren't
exactly the best names. How about something like [OSCroute],
[OSCsend], and [OSCreceive]. Or they could be in a libdir and be
[osc/route], [osc/send], and [osc/receive], but maybe that's getting
ahead of myself ;)
That's the way I'd like to see objects named in the future, using
common names for common concepts, like send, receive, route, with the
namespace selecting which one you are using. This is the way Java is,
for example, and it makes a lot of sense. It makes the knowledge more
modular. Once you know the Pd concept of send and receive, you can add
"pd", "net", "osc", or "~" depending on what you want to send and
receive. For example:
[pd/send], [pd/receive] [net/send], [net/receive] [osc/send], [osc/receive] [send~], [receive~]
.hc
On Nov 22, 2005, at 9:58 AM, B. Bogart wrote:
There are many things that I would like to see in the OSC for PD that are not in OSCx. What is liblo? Is there a standard OSC lib that impliments all the goodies, including the parameter query stuff?
b.
günter geiger wrote:
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005, Frank Barknecht wrote:
The license of OSC is fine (now), it could be shipped with Pd immediatly.
The license is fine, but the code is terrible. It would be better to
have a fresh implementation or something based on liblo.Günter
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
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"Terrorism is not an enemy. It cannot be defeated. It's a tactic.
It's about as sensible to say we declare war on night attacks and
expect we're going to win that war. We're not going to win the war on
terrorism."
-
retired U.S. Army general, William Odom
Hallo, Frank Barknecht hat gesagt: // Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Also, while we are at it, [OSCroute], [sendOSC], and [dumpOSC] aren't
exactly the best names.They are the names used in Max/MSP.
Oh, sorry: They are not: OSCroute is "osc-route" in Max, and there is no sendOSC/dumpOSC, instead there are udp-read and udp-write.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
On Nov 22, 2005, at 11:34 AM, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Also, while we are at it, [OSCroute], [sendOSC], and [dumpOSC] aren't exactly the best names.
They are the names used in Max/MSP.
Are they? I've only seen Maxers use [otudp]. According to CNMAT, the
names in Max are:
otudp, OpenSoundControl, and OSC-route.
http://www.cnmat.berkeley.edu/OpenSoundControl/Max/
.hc
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are
deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from
scarcity."
-John Gilmore
Hallo, B. Bogart hat gesagt: // B. Bogart wrote:
There are many things that I would like to see in the OSC for PD that are not in OSCx. What is liblo? Is there a standard OSC lib that impliments all the goodies, including the parameter query stuff?
FYI: The "parameter query stuff" as in liboscqs is controversial. Well known developers like James McCartney of SuperCollider fame think, it is a bad idea. Lesser known people like me tend to agree with James.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
Hallo, Chris McCormick hat gesagt: // Chris McCormick wrote:
Which begs the question; why isn't OSC functionality included in Pd canonical? After all, OSC is the new defacto standard in control messages isn't it? And Midi functionality is included already in Pd.
I think, too, that OSC should be shipped with Pd main. It could be shipped similar too [expr] in it's own space.
Frank I think yr on the right track in terms of making the user experience easier. Like it or not, users want to download one binary and install it, or apt-get install it. Do you see it being possible to replace pool functionality with the new list and data structures stuff?
No. What is missing in Pd is a "hash" or "map" object, which allows fast lookup of data by keyword. Actually also a proper "vector" is missing, where one can store and retrieve lists by index number without having to traverse the whole vector sequentially.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
On Nov 21, 2005, at 3:19 AM, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo, Chris McCormick hat gesagt: // Chris McCormick wrote:
Which begs the question; why isn't OSC functionality included in Pd canonical? After all, OSC is the new defacto standard in control messages isn't it? And Midi functionality is included already in Pd.
I think, too, that OSC should be shipped with Pd main. It could be shipped similar too [expr] in it's own space.
Well, its been in the Pd-extended builds for a while. Plus I'll be
releasing Windows and Linux version of Pd-extended shortly, and a new
Mac OS X Pd-extended.app today
.hc
Frank I think yr on the right track in terms of making the user
experience easier. Like it or not, users want to download one binary and install it, or apt-get install it. Do you see it being possible to replace
pool functionality with the new list and data structures stuff?No. What is missing in Pd is a "hash" or "map" object, which allows fast lookup of data by keyword. Actually also a proper "vector" is missing, where one can store and retrieve lists by index number without having to traverse the whole vector sequentially.
News is what people want to keep hidden and everything else is
publicity.
- Bill Moyers
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005, Frank Barknecht wrote:
No. What is missing in Pd is a "hash" or "map" object, which allows fast lookup of data by keyword. Actually also a proper "vector" is missing, where one can store and retrieve lists by index number without having to traverse the whole vector sequentially.
What should their feature-sets be? Because i don't know what "proper"
means here. Already existing vector-like things in Pd would be
arrays-of-floats, arrays-of-structs, and lists-of-atoms.
The thing that you need to traverse element-by-element is when you use (g)pointers such as with [get] [put] [elem], which is another kind of thing called a list.
What would the "hash" or "map" object would do that [pool] doesn't ?
What about Georg Holzmann's PdContainer ?
Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
Hallo, Mathieu Bouchard hat gesagt: // Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005, Frank Barknecht wrote:
No. What is missing in Pd is a "hash" or "map" object, which allows fast lookup of data by keyword. Actually also a proper "vector" is missing, where one can store and retrieve lists by index number without having to traverse the whole vector sequentially.
What should their feature-sets be? Because i don't know what "proper"
means here. Already existing vector-like things in Pd would be arrays-of-floats, arrays-of-structs, and lists-of-atoms.
I miss arrays of lists with arbitrary length, or do I just miss them?
Data struct arrays come close but the stored data is not of arbitrary length or format, but has to be another struct that was previously defined. DS-arrays of DS-arrays may do the trick, but they are might tricky to handle. I just want something like a fast lookup of lines in something like "[textfile]" by number.
What would the "hash" or "map" object would do that [pool] doesn't ?
What about Georg Holzmann's PdContainer ?
I'm talking about Pd internals here.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Mathieu Bouchard hat gesagt: // Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
What should their feature-sets be? Because i don't know what "proper"
means here. Already existing vector-like things in Pd would be arrays-of-floats, arrays-of-structs, and lists-of-atoms.I miss arrays of lists with arbitrary length, or do I just miss them?
There's #define DT_LIST in g_canvas.h. I think it's a fairly recent addition. Did you try it? Or is it not completely implemented?
What would the "hash" or "map" object would do that [pool] doesn't ? What about Georg Holzmann's PdContainer ?
I'm talking about Pd internals here.
I'm thinking about considering Pd externals for inclusion in Pd.
Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
Hallo, Mathieu Bouchard hat gesagt: // Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
There's #define DT_LIST in g_canvas.h. I think it's a fairly recent addition. Did you try it? Or is it not completely implemented?
Hm, at least trying to use a [struct s float x list l] doesn't work.
What would the "hash" or "map" object would do that [pool] doesn't ? What about Georg Holzmann's PdContainer ?
I'm talking about Pd internals here.
I'm thinking about considering Pd externals for inclusion in Pd.
Oh, I'd love to have PDContainer in Pd. ;)
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
Hallo!
What would the "hash" or "map" object would do that [pool] doesn't ? What about Georg Holzmann's PdContainer ?
I'm talking about Pd internals here.
I'm thinking about considering Pd externals for inclusion in Pd.
Oh, I'd love to have PDContainer in Pd. ;)
I don't think that this will ever happen, because it's written in C++ and uses STL ...
LG Georg
IS there a way to tell pd to start a patch minimized?
just a short remark:
you should not hit the reply button on a random email from the list
to start a new topic.
otherwhise your mail will end up with the ones from this thread.
m.
hi patrick
not that i know. but you can start pd with the flag '-nogui', if you like to start pd without any gui.
or you can send a message to the patch at loadtime:
[loadbang] | [; pd-yourpatch.pd vis 0(
actually this not minimizing the patch, but making it invisible. the only way to make it visible again is to send it a message [; pd-yourpatch.pd vis 1(.
roman
"Patrick Pagano" bigswift@ufl.edu wrote:
IS there a way to tell pd to start a patch minimized?
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On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, Georg Holzmann wrote:
Oh, I'd love to have PDContainer in Pd. ;)
I don't think that this will ever happen, because it's written in C++ and uses STL ...
Quick survey: how open are developers to the following ?
(a) inclusion of C++ code in Pd devel branch
(b) inclusion of C++ STL code in Pd devel branch
Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
On Nov 22, 2005, at 9:28 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, Georg Holzmann wrote:
Oh, I'd love to have PDContainer in Pd. ;)
I don't think that this will ever happen, because it's written in C++
and uses STL ...Quick survey: how open are developers to the following ?
(a) inclusion of C++ code in Pd devel branch
(b) inclusion of C++ STL code in Pd devel branch
Not to hammer it (ok, yes, to hammer it ;), but the easy way to deal
with this is to get PDContainer in the Pd-extended builds.
.hc
"Looking at things from a more basic level, you can come up with a more
direct solution... It may sound small in theory, but it in practice, it
can change entire economies."
- Amy Smith
Hi Mathieu, hi all,
Am 23.11.2005 um 03:28 schrieb Mathieu Bouchard:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, Georg Holzmann wrote:
Oh, I'd love to have PDContainer in Pd. ;)
I don't think that this will ever happen, because it's written in C++ and uses STL ...
Quick survey: how open are developers to the following ?
(a) inclusion of C++ code in Pd devel branch
(b) inclusion of C++ STL code in Pd devel branch
in principle i'm positive to both, because every c compiler i know of is able to compile c++. On the other hand, i'm not in favor of inclusion of externals into PD. To my mind this is a question of packaging, not of core functionality. I personally would even throw out so-called internals and all graphical objects of course, with a compact kernel remaining.
best greetings, Thomas
On Nov 23, 2005, at 3:56 AM, Thomas Grill wrote:
Hi Mathieu, hi all,
Am 23.11.2005 um 03:28 schrieb Mathieu Bouchard:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, Georg Holzmann wrote:
Oh, I'd love to have PDContainer in Pd. ;)
I don't think that this will ever happen, because it's written in
C++ and uses STL ...Quick survey: how open are developers to the following ?
(a) inclusion of C++ code in Pd devel branch
(b) inclusion of C++ STL code in Pd devel branch
in principle i'm positive to both, because every c compiler i know of
is able to compile c++. On the other hand, i'm not in favor of inclusion of externals into PD.
To my mind this is a question of packaging, not of core functionality. I personally would even throw out so-called internals and all
graphical objects of course, with a compact kernel remaining.
Yes, definitely. Everything should be a lib. Then you could easily
swap out any of the core objects for some of your own. Something like
[pd/send] vs. [mylibrary/send].
.hc
Using ReBirth is like trying to play an 808 with a long stick. -David Zicarelli
Hallo,
"Everything should be a lib." IOhannes, take note: Hans finally saw the light! No more single externals. ;)
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
Its the perfect merger of the two, a library of single externals.
.hc
On Nov 23, 2005, at 1:50 PM, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo,
"Everything should be a lib." IOhannes, take note: Hans finally saw the light! No more single externals. ;)
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
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"The arc of history bends towards justice."
- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, Thomas Grill wrote:
Quick survey: how open are developers to the following ? (a) inclusion of C++ code in Pd devel branch (b) inclusion of C++ STL code in Pd devel branch
in principle i'm positive to both, because every c compiler i know of is able to compile c++.
One major problem is that there tends to be greater variation (incompatibilities and bugs) between C++ compilers than between C compilers. Another problem would be the ABI incompatibilities, but as long as our public *.h files don't contain any C++-specific things, this is a non-issue.
On the other hand, i'm not in favor of inclusion of externals into PD.
What did Miller just do? Oh right, he didn't include [list] from outside, he wrote it from scratch. But still, prior to 0.39, that was something that was handled mostly by externals such as the ones in cyclone, maxlib, zexy, gridflow and whatever. How did we go from "list processing is an external feature" to "list processing is an internal feature" ? Certainly not by not being in favour of inclusion of externals into PD.
I personally would even throw out so-called internals and all graphical objects of course, with a compact kernel remaining.
Well, I would mostly agree, as long as those things remain bundled with the core pd, at least in the way that [expr~] [bonk~] [fiddle~] currently are. Besides, that's how it was in jMax.
Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
On Nov 22, 2005, at 9:28 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, Georg Holzmann wrote:
Oh, I'd love to have PDContainer in Pd. ;)
I don't think that this will ever happen, because it's written in C ++ and uses STL ...
Quick survey: how open are developers to the following ?
(a) inclusion of C++ code in Pd devel branch
(b) inclusion of C++ STL code in Pd devel branch
...uh, I don't object to object's 8~P
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, james tittle wrote:
On Nov 22, 2005, at 9:28 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, Georg Holzmann wrote:
Oh, I'd love to have PDContainer in Pd. ;)
I don't think that this will ever happen, because it's written in C++ and uses STL ...
Quick survey: how open are developers to the following ? (a) inclusion of C++ code in Pd devel branch (b) inclusion of C++ STL code in Pd devel branch
...uh, I don't object to object's 8~P
You know, there is a book in which every chapter starts with a quote and that the one on Object-Oriented Programming starts with one from the dictionary, citing the definition of the verb "object" instead of, presumably, the noun.
Then I looked into a dictionary, and noted that there were 11 definitions of the word "object". In fact, looking at this page:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=object
it says that there are 14 definitions, and displays the contents of the first one, which is itself comprised of 8 sub-definitions.
Well, in computer programming, there happens to be that many definitions of the word "object", not counting those found in a general dictionary.
That said, not all additions of C++ (compared to C) are about classes and objects. There are several other features that can help making better programs.
Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
On Nov 22, 2005, at 6:05 PM, Georg Holzmann wrote:
Hallo!
What would the "hash" or "map" object would do that [pool] doesn't
? What about Georg Holzmann's PdContainer ?I'm talking about Pd internals here.
I'm thinking about considering Pd externals for inclusion in Pd.
Oh, I'd love to have PDContainer in Pd. ;)
I don't think that this will ever happen, because it's written in C++
and uses STL ...
You could add it to the Pd-extended builds without too much work.
.hc
There is no way to peace, peace is the way.
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