hello,
In fact I've no clue about how max instrument patches sounds, only using it for livelooping, but I and other musicians like me didn't like the sonority of netpd for example, because rendered texture are poor, only one sytnh sound good (I don't remember which one), and once we've turned around all sonorities of this synth, there's not much things to play with. I'm not blaming the great work of roman on netpd, but just demonstrate that in despite a lot of efforts to have tools for making music with pd, there's no way to make something smooth enough to be commercial, unless cheating with some steinberg or direct x stuff, of knowing by heart all the dsp tricks. Anyway, I'd like to hear something composed by a king of pd patches, for the fun.
----- Mail Original ----- De: "Matteo Sisti Sette" matteosistisette@gmail.com À: porres@gmail.com Cc: "PD list" pd-list@iem.at Envoyé: Jeudi 25 Mars 2010 18h17:11 GMT +01:00 Amsterdam / Berlin / Berne / Rome / Stockholm / Vienne Objet: Re: [PD] Max Smoother Audio than Pd?
So, I think this is an important myth to get over...
Well that seems a kinda "biased" approach :)
Whenever anybody says that "Max sounds smoother than Pd" (or viceversa of course) we should force him to answer these three questions:
clicks/pops? is it less dropouts? or what else?)
max provides many objects that easily remove or avoid clicks/pops, on pd we almost always have to follow some patching rules that easily drive the lay person to mistakes, that generate clicks and pops
are you comparing with the same hardware?
Let me see the patches (ok this is not a question - this is a demand,
lol)
colet.patrice@free.fr escribió:
in despite a lot of efforts to have tools for making music with pd, there's no way to make something smooth enough to be commercial, unless cheating with some steinberg or direct x stuff,
That doesn't seem strange to me: I guess all the sound processing involved in creating _fullu_ "commercial"-sounding stuff would be quite complicated to implement natively in Pd and probably too cpu-expensive - anybody correct me if I am wrong.
But I wonder how this can be different in Max (note that I don't know Max at all (almost))
matteosistisette wrote:
colet.patrice@free.fr escribió:
in despite a lot of efforts to have tools for making music with pd, there's no way to make something smooth enough to be commercial, unless cheating with some steinberg or direct x stuff,
That doesn't seem strange to me: I guess all the sound processing involved in creating _fullu_ "commercial"-sounding stuff would be quite complicated to implement natively in Pd and probably too cpu-expensive - anybody correct me if I am wrong.
But I wonder how this can be different in Max (note that I don't know Max at all (almost))
I think the main difference is that Max uses doubles (64-bit floating point) and Pd uses floats (32-bit floating point) to calculate the audio. There are two varieties of csound, one use floats and the other uses doubles: files rendered with the doubles version usually sound better.
Martin
On 25.03.2010, at 19:55, martin.peach@sympatico.ca <martin.peach@sympatico.ca
wrote:
matteosistisette wrote:
colet.patrice@free.fr escribió:
in despite a lot of efforts to have tools for making music with pd, there's no way to make something smooth enough to be commercial, unless cheating with some steinberg or direct x stuff,
That doesn't seem strange to me: I guess all the sound processing involved in creating _fullu_ "commercial"-sounding stuff would be
quite complicated to implement natively in Pd and probably too cpu- expensive - anybody correct me if I am wrong.But I wonder how this can be different in Max (note that I don't know Max at all (almost))
I think the main difference is that Max uses doubles (64-bit
floating point)
oha, myth-alarm! max (still) uses 32-bits.
vboehm wrote:point)
oha, myth-alarm! max (still) uses 32-bits.
Yeah I guess you're right. In the Max sdk docs they sometimes refer to 32-bit floats as 'doubles'. e.g. "The other options are A_FLOAT for doubles, A_SYM for symbols, and A_GIMME,..." but the Max atom is essentially identical to the Pd atom, so it must be a float.
Max has an integer atom type (A_LONG) while Pd doesn't, although Pd declares some integer methods in m_pd.h, but that won't affect the audio.
So csound doubles version should sound best of all...
Martin
Not a DSP guy (video guy), but I've heard the same exact complaints of Max/MSP - that other commercial apps have a smoother sound generally, even with simple patches.
Since Max used a version of PD at some point for the DSP stuff, I'd imagine they would be in general about the same, but what do I know.
On Mar 25, 2010, at 2:49 PM, Matteo Sisti Sette wrote:
colet.patrice@free.fr escribió:
in despite a lot of efforts to have tools for making music with pd, there's no way to make something smooth enough to be commercial, unless cheating with some steinberg or direct x stuff,
That doesn't seem strange to me: I guess all the sound processing involved in creating _fullu_ "commercial"-sounding stuff would be quite complicated to implement natively in Pd and probably too cpu-expensive - anybody correct me if I am wrong.
But I wonder how this can be different in Max (note that I don't know Max at all (almost))
-- Matteo Sisti Sette matteosistisette@gmail.com http://www.matteosistisette.com
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
in despite a lot of efforts to have tools for making music with pd, there's no way to make something smooth enough to be commercial, unless cheating with some steinberg or direct x stuff,
That doesn't seem strange to me: I guess all the sound processing involved in creating _fullu_ "commercial"-sounding stuff would be quite complicated to implement natively in Pd and probably too cpu-expensive - anybody correct me if I am wrong.
But I wonder how this can be different in Max (note that I don't know Max at all (almost))
i cannot comment on max, but comparing the implementations of supercollider's unit generators and pd's tilde objects shows a big different in the handling of parameter changes. pd uses new parameters instantly, while supercollider does a one-block interpolation, so it should sound `smoother'.
On Thu, 2010-03-25 at 22:45 +0100, Tim Blechmann wrote:
in despite a lot of efforts to have tools for making music with pd, there's no way to make something smooth enough to be commercial, unless cheating with some steinberg or direct x stuff,
That doesn't seem strange to me: I guess all the sound processing involved in creating _fullu_ "commercial"-sounding stuff would be quite complicated to implement natively in Pd and probably too cpu-expensive - anybody correct me if I am wrong.
But I wonder how this can be different in Max (note that I don't know Max at all (almost))
i cannot comment on max, but comparing the implementations of supercollider's unit generators and pd's tilde objects shows a big different in the handling of parameter changes. pd uses new parameters instantly, while supercollider does a one-block interpolation, so it should sound `smoother'.
I can't comment on supercollider, but while it's true what you say about Pd, it's very easy to overcome that by using [line~]s or even better [vline~].
Roman
But I wonder how this can be different in Max (note that I don't know Max at all (almost))
i cannot comment on max, but comparing the implementations of supercollider's unit generators and pd's tilde objects shows a big different in the handling of parameter changes. pd uses new parameters instantly, while supercollider does a one-block interpolation, so it should sound `smoother'.
I can't comment on supercollider, but while it's true what you say about Pd, it's very easy to overcome that by using [line~]s or even better [vline~].
only for objects supporting audio-rate arguments and at the cost of performance ;)
Hi Patko
I'm so sad to hear that you don't seem to like those sounds at all. But thanks for the feedback.
On Thu, 2010-03-25 at 19:36 +0100, colet.patrice@free.fr wrote:
In fact I've no clue about how max instrument patches sounds, only using it for livelooping, but I and other musicians like me didn't like the sonority of netpd for example, because rendered texture are poor, only one sytnh sound good (I don't remember which one), and once we've turned around all sonorities of this synth, there's not much things to play with. I'm not blaming the great work of roman on netpd,
No offense taken. It was the work of quite a few people.
but just demonstrate that in despite a lot of efforts to have tools for making music with pd, there's no way to make something smooth enough to be commercial, unless cheating with some steinberg or direct x stuff, of knowing by heart all the dsp tricks. Anyway, I'd like to hear something composed by a king of pd patches, for the fun.
Me too!
You made me really, really curious: Which synth was it that you didn't dislike so much? Or can you point me to a track that's using that synth?
Roman
On Mar 25, 2010, at 9:34 PM, Roman Haefeli wrote:
but just demonstrate that in despite a lot of efforts to have tools for making music with pd, there's no way to make something smooth enough to be commercial, unless cheating with some steinberg or direct x stuff, of knowing by heart all the dsp tricks. Anyway, I'd like to hear something composed by a king of pd patches, for the fun.
Me too!
Well I am no pd king either, but it's been working quite well for me after the initial investment of learning and building patches.
Here's a song recorded with multiple tracks from pd directly to Ardour on an old single core Linux laptop. All of the effects were applied live within pd and the tracks were mixed in Ardour and mastered using Jamin.
SubOptimal Demo
Yeah, there's no fancy synthesis going on, but I thing the sound is comparable to what I might have done using any daw ... and I can run it on "slow" and "useless" hardware which Logic, Cubase, and a millions vsts could not.
Dan Wilcox danomatika.com robotcowboy.com
On Fri, 2010-03-26 at 09:18 +0100, Dan Wilcox wrote:
Well I am no pd king either, but it's been working quite well for me after the initial investment of learning and building patches.
Here's a song recorded with multiple tracks from pd directly to Ardour on an old single core Linux laptop. All of the effects were applied live within pd and the tracks were mixed in Ardour and mastered using Jamin.
SubOptimal Demo
Yeah, thanks for posting. Definitely interesting to hear about different practices and their results.
Here's a minimal track also made with Pd, for the sake of diversity: http://www.netpd.org/sessions/2007-11-08_antiwecker.mp3
Is it time for having a pool for Pd-made music? There was the Pd radio which I quite liked. Would it require a lot of effort to bring it up again?
Roman
Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de
Roman Haefeli wrote:
Here's a minimal track also made with Pd, for the sake of diversity: http://www.netpd.org/sessions/2007-11-08_antiwecker.mp3
thats a cool track! and there are a few more on the server. i am just listening to "hinsichtlich", and i really like the pad-sound which starts at about 3:00 (right after this 'distortion accident'). can you tell me what patch it is?
Is it time for having a pool for Pd-made music?
a while ago there was a "music made with pd" topic on this list, and there where some good examples posted. i remember especially a track called "post" by "daax", which i like very much. (nice pads and sample treatment vs. super-harsh percussion)
bis denn! martin
On Sat, 2010-03-27 at 20:35 +0100, martin brinkmann wrote:
i am just listening to "hinsichtlich", and i really like the pad-sound which starts at about 3:00 (right after this 'distortion accident'). can you tell me what patch it is?
It's a never-released a bit naive saw based synth with hard-coded major7 chord. I tried to reproduce the sound from "hinsichtlich" and it seems that it is just made of this synth and some reverb, probably the netpd-ized rev3 from pd-vanilla.
you can find the major7.pd patch and its depencencies here: http://www.romanhaefeli.net/software/pd/ depends:
To get it, the simpliest would probably be, if you'd log in and I open it for you.
Is it time for having a pool for Pd-made music?
a while ago there was a "music made with pd" topic on this list, and there where some good examples posted. i remember especially a track called "post" by "daax", which i like very much. (nice pads and sample treatment vs. super-harsh percussion)
couldn't find that particular track on: http://noconventions.mobi/nvisible.taz/ but there are many interesting sounding tracks there. thanks for mentioning.
Roman
Roman Haefeli wrote:
you can find the major7.pd patch and its depencencies here: http://www.romanhaefeli.net/software/pd/
i could not find major7.pd there, but i have tried the bandlimited_oscilators (sinesum), which sounded quite a lot better/smoother than other methods for making bandlimited waveforms in pd. i will try to make some pad-synths with these.
couldn't find that particular track on: http://noconventions.mobi/nvisible.taz/
some other ones are also very good, but that one was my favourite. looks like it is gone. i could send it to you by mail if you like, or put it (temporarly) on my site. or maybe the author of this music is also reading this list?
bis denn! martin
On Mon, 2010-03-29 at 15:59 +0200, martin brinkmann wrote:
Roman Haefeli wrote:
you can find the major7.pd patch and its depencencies here: http://www.romanhaefeli.net/software/pd/
i could not find major7.pd there,
sorry, here it is: http://www.romanhaefeli.net/software/pd/major7.pd
roman
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 10:07:29AM +0100, Roman Haefeli wrote:
Is it time for having a pool for Pd-made music? There was the Pd radio which I quite liked. Would it require a lot of effort to bring it up again?
Not quite the same, but as you know, http://rjdj.me has hours and hours of Pd-made music, albeit in 22050 Hz, so it's not exactly a showcase for the most hifi Pd sounds possible. Still I find many of these to be pretty good sounding.
Regarding the smoothness of Max/Pd/etc. lets heed to the words of our grandfather Max Mathews:
"Max and Pd allow almost anyone to synthesize uninteresting timbres almost instantly. Making interesting timbres is much more difficult and requires much additional knowledge." http://crca.ucsd.edu/~msp/techniques/latest/book-html/node5.html
It's not so much the tool, as it is the skills that makes music sound good. If you use a [phasor~] as a sawtooth oscillator source, you're "wrong" in both Max and Pd.
Frank
On Sun, 2010-03-28 at 11:44 +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote:
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 10:07:29AM +0100, Roman Haefeli wrote:
Is it time for having a pool for Pd-made music? There was the Pd radio which I quite liked. Would it require a lot of effort to bring it up again?
Not quite the same, but as you know, http://rjdj.me has hours and hours of Pd-made music, albeit in 22050 Hz, so it's not exactly a showcase for the most hifi Pd sounds possible. Still I find many of these to be pretty good sounding.
Totally. Thanks for posting. These are good examples and they show, that you can create complex textures and smooth sounds even without using fancy externals and the help of ready-made VSTs. And hey, that is coming out from an iPhone, a computer with rather weak processing power. And no, it's not all sample based.
Regarding the smoothness of Max/Pd/etc. lets heed to the words of our grandfather Max Mathews:
"Max and Pd allow almost anyone to synthesize uninteresting timbres almost instantly. Making interesting timbres is much more difficult and requires much additional knowledge." http://crca.ucsd.edu/~msp/techniques/latest/book-html/node5.html
This reminids me of:
"Making boring techno music is really easy with modern tools, but with
live coding, boring techno is much harder." - Chris McCormick
It's not so much the tool, as it is the skills that makes music sound good. If you use a [phasor~] as a sawtooth oscillator source, you're "wrong" in both Max and Pd.
I fully agree. My feeling is when it comes to producing (more popular/club-oriented/mainstream oriented) music, the difference between using Pd and using ready-made software from the market is mainly the fact, that the Pd way requires much more an effort to prepare the environment someone is heading for, which doesn't necessarily mean it is less feasible to do. Additionally, Pd allows for projects like RjDj. IMHO, using Pd also for creating boring techno is still valid and I think it is fun.
Roman
On 26.03.2010 09:18, Dan Wilcox wrote:
SubOptimal Demo http://musicdump.danomatika.com/New%20robotcowboy/SubOptimal/SubOptimal-demo2_mastered.mp3
nice Devo feeling!
colet.patrice@free.fr wrote:
didn't like the sonority of netpd for example, because rendered texture are poor, only one sytnh sound good
the reason might be that netpd is 'pd-vanilla', and there are not so much techniques used for getting smooth(er) sound (afair), like bandlimited oscs and custom filters. without any further effort (or using externals), pd sounds pretty rough and 'digital'. (not so much like 'ice-cold fm-pads', more like '8-bit lofi with aliasing'.)
a 'modern' version of netpd, using rjlib for example, might sound better.
i think max/msp has a few more good sounding 'built-in'-objects than pd (i have only played a little with the demo version), and other systems, which are more high-level (reaktor, supercollider, csound) have 'good-sounding' modules out-of-the-box anyway. but i think it is possible to achieve similar quality with pd. it needs (quite a lot) more effort though...
bis denn! martin
mnb wrote:
colet.patrice@free.fr wrote:
didn't like the sonority of netpd for example, because rendered texture are poor, only one sytnh sound good
the reason might be that netpd is 'pd-vanilla', and there are not so much techniques used for getting smooth(er) sound (afair), like bandlimited oscs and custom filters. without any further effort (or using externals), pd sounds pretty rough and 'digital'. (not so much like 'ice-cold fm-pads', more like '8-bit lofi with aliasing'.)
If a basic [osc~] sounds like 8 bits I think maybe you need a better sound card. ;)
Martin
On Thu, 2010-03-25 at 21:05 +0000, martin.peach@sympatico.ca wrote:
mnb wrote:
colet.patrice@free.fr wrote:
didn't like the sonority of netpd for example, because rendered texture are poor, only one sytnh sound good
the reason might be that netpd is 'pd-vanilla', and there are not so much techniques used for getting smooth(er) sound (afair), like bandlimited oscs
Actually, there vanilla-based bandlimited oscillators and some netpd-synths are using them.
Roman
Roman Haefeli wrote:
Actually, there vanilla-based bandlimited oscillators and some netpd-synths are using them.
maybe the "one good-sounding synth" is one of them.
and i remember some synths which use just phasor~-0.5 (which i also use quite often).
bis denn! martin