Call me crazy, but I just made some objects so that you can get the
info from /etc/passwd and /etc/group, and convert between UIDs/GIDs
and usernames/groupnames. Its part of my effort to provide as many
low level primitives within Pd as possible. Or really, its make a
libc interface for Pd.
http://at.or.at/hans/pd/objects.html
Of course, these will be included in the next Pd-extended release. I
haven't touched Windows yet, but I plan on it.
.hc
Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to
realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either
change them, or perish. -William Carlos Williams
PD-announce mailing list PD-announce@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-announce
Le 12 Juin 2006 16:55, Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :
Call me crazy, but I just made some objects so that you can get the info from /etc/passwd and /etc/group, and convert between UIDs/GIDs and usernames/groupnames. Its part of my effort to provide as many low level primitives within Pd as possible. Or really, its make a libc interface for Pd.
Hans, why are you crazy about low level primitives? ;-) Why not promoting the use of the shell or the python externals to interact with the system? I'm not against your idea (maybe I don't understand it), but is it worth it? I'd rather use common Unix scripting commands than depend on more pd externals (and more help patches). -- Marc
On Jun 13, 2006, at 6:37 AM, Marc Lavallée wrote:
Le 12 Juin 2006 16:55, Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :
Call me crazy, but I just made some objects so that you can get the info from /etc/passwd and /etc/group, and convert between UIDs/GIDs and usernames/groupnames. Its part of my effort to provide as many low level primitives within Pd as possible. Or really, its make a libc interface for Pd.
Hans, why are you crazy about low level primitives? ;-) Why not
promoting the use of the shell or the python externals to interact with the
system? I'm not against your idea (maybe I don't understand it), but is it
worth it? I'd rather use common Unix scripting commands than depend on
more pd externals (and more help patches).
[shell] doesn't work on Windows and [py] has crashing issues and
doesn't necessarily work easily on Windows. Plus I've never used
python, and don't really want to learn any new languages right now (I
know enough, its time to get some work done!).
And since Pd is already written in C, it makes sense to write the
primitives in C so there are less dependencies. You are of course
free to use UNIX scripting commands, so I am guessing these objects
are not for you. But many Pd programmers don't know python or UNIX
scripting, so why should Pd programmers have to learn another
language in order to do basic things? That's like telling python
programmers they should just use the UNIX scripting or C.
.hc
Using ReBirth is like trying to play an 808 with a long stick. - David Zicarelli
Hi,
[py] has crashing issues and doesn't necessarily work easily on Windows.
Which are those crashing issues of py?
greetings, Thomas
On Jun 13, 2006, at 11:35 AM, Thomas Grill wrote:
Hi,
[py] has crashing issues and doesn't necessarily work easily on
Windows.Which are those crashing issues of py?
Same ones as before, I think, but I haven't tried since then. I
don't use python at all, so I wouldn't know where to start. Next
time I find some useful info, I will definitely forward it on.
.hc
As we enjoy great advantages from inventions of others, we should be
glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours; and
this we should do freely and generously. - Benjamin Franklin
I just started using py and python yesterday and everything works well so far under the 0.38 installer on Windows. I reduced some shell scripts and Pd hackery down to about 6 lines of python and it seems like the way to go for scripting on Windows.
cgc
On 6/13/06, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@eds.org wrote:
On Jun 13, 2006, at 11:35 AM, Thomas Grill wrote:
Hi,
[py] has crashing issues and doesn't necessarily work easily on Windows.
Which are those crashing issues of py?
Same ones as before, I think, but I haven't tried since then. I don't use python at all, so I wouldn't know where to start. Next time I find some useful info, I will definitely forward it on.
.hc
As we enjoy great advantages from inventions of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours; and this we should do freely and generously. - Benjamin Franklin
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Le 13 Juin 2006 10:42, Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :
[shell] doesn't work on Windows and [py] has crashing issues and doesn't necessarily work easily on Windows.
Well, Windows is not an operating system, it's a gigantic kludge to secure a monopolistic empire. PD works better on Gnu/Linux (and probably OSX), so the more you give to Windows users, the longer they will be stucked using it.
Plus I've never used python, and don't really want to learn any new languages right now (I know enough, its time to get some work done!).
That's also my point, except I would be reluctant to install more externals when I can already use scripting languages for basic things. We already have the required tools to get some work done. I read somewhere that 50% of a software is about its documentation; I would say that 50% of any computer related work is done when you know one good scripting language. Of course, you can also spend your energy coding externals (and help patches) to do the same.
And since Pd is already written in C, it makes sense to write the primitives in C so there are less dependencies.
That makes sense on small systems, like embeded devices with Linux. On a normal computer it's much less of an issue.
You are of course free to use UNIX scripting commands, so I am guessing these objects are not for you. But many Pd programmers don't know python or UNIX scripting, so why should Pd programmers have to learn another language in order to do basic things? That's like telling python programmers they should just use the UNIX scripting or C.
PD is not a programming or scripting language, so these objects will not help people to learn about their computer and its common interface (Unix commands). Some PD users are willing to switch to Gnu/Linux for various reasons, and in order to succeed they need to learn about Unix. Instead of writing C externals, I would write scripting recipes, because they are usually much easier to understand than C for basic things, and have a better pedagogic value. But learning about C is good too...
Anyway, your externals should be successful; people are lazy (especially Windows users...) ;-) -- Marc
Am 13.06.2006 um 21:00 schrieb Marc Lavallée:
Le 13 Juin 2006 10:42, Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :
[shell] doesn't work on Windows and [py] has crashing issues and doesn't necessarily work easily on Windows.
Well, Windows is not an operating system, it's a gigantic kludge to secure a monopolistic empire. PD works better on Gnu/Linux (and probably OSX), so the more you give to Windows users, the longer they will be stucked using it.
thanks for your 2 cents.
greetings, Thomas
Marc Lavallée wrote:
Well, Windows is not an operating system, it's a gigantic kludge to secure a monopolistic empire. PD works better on Gnu/Linux (and probably OSX), so the more you give to Windows users, the longer they will be stucked using it.
<sarcasm> Yes, you're on the right way - start another flame war, we really need it here... </sarcasm>
I can't speak for the rest - but I prefer constructive constributions here. Your opinion about different OSs doesn't contribute to this thread in any way...
br, Piotr
come on folks, cool down !
fighting over different OSs is part of the fun. consider it a football-club discussion in a pub ;-)
oliver
Piotr Majdak wrote:
Marc Lavallée wrote:
Well, Windows is not an operating system, it's a gigantic kludge to secure a monopolistic empire. PD works better on Gnu/Linux (and probably OSX), so the more you give to Windows users, the longer they will be stucked using it.
<sarcasm> Yes, you're on the right way - start another flame war, we really need it here... </sarcasm>
I can't speak for the rest - but I prefer constructive constributions here. Your opinion about different OSs doesn't contribute to this thread in any way...
br, Piotr
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Am 13.06.2006 um 22:20 schrieb oliver:
come on folks, cool down !
fighting over different OSs is part of the fun. consider it a
football-club discussion in a pub ;-)
by the way (and even more OT), the only bearable way to watch soccer
these days:
telnet ascii-wm.net 2006
greetings, Thomas
Hallo, Thomas Grill hat gesagt: // Thomas Grill wrote:
by the way (and even more OT), the only bearable way to watch soccer
these days: telnet ascii-wm.net 2006
Unfortunately this seems to be overloaded all the time, but do you know, being Viennese and all that, if it's done using Pd as well? Maybe we can mirror it somehow to give a more stable connection?
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
oh yeah,
i would like too see what this is too, but i only get "too many connections :) .. try later" all the time...
:(
"football we play better than you..." ;) -andre
On Wed, 2006-06-14 at 00:17 +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo, Thomas Grill hat gesagt: // Thomas Grill wrote:
by the way (and even more OT), the only bearable way to watch soccer
these days: telnet ascii-wm.net 2006Unfortunately this seems to be overloaded all the time, but do you know, being Viennese and all that, if it's done using Pd as well? Maybe we can mirror it somehow to give a more stable connection?
Ciao
Hallo, Andre Schmidt hat gesagt: // Andre Schmidt wrote:
oh yeah,
i would like too see what this is too, but i only get "too many connections :) .. try later" all the time...
We could do our own version using PDP/Pidip. Or use hasciicam http://ascii.dyne.org/ instead. But for some reason, my tv-card is broken currently...
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
Am 14.06.2006 um 08:59 schrieb Andre Schmidt:
oh yeah,
i would like too see what this is too, but i only get "too many connections :) .. try later" all the time...
you should try to tune in 10 minutes before a game starts... then
chances are good that you get a connection.
greetings, Thomas
Le 13 Juin 2006 16:20, oliver a écrit :
come on folks, cool down !
fighting over different OSs is part of the fun. consider it a football-club discussion in a pub ;-)
With gentle(wo)men and good beer, without hooligans. :-) Computing would be so boring without friendly OS fights; imagine a world with only Windows or OSX, that would be horrible... But I wouldn't mind a world with only BSD and Gnu/Linux, where the WIPO is globally forbiding proprietary culture, forcing Windows geeks to hide even to use Wine and FreeDOS. ;-)
Ok, back to reality... My neighbor just asked me to help him with its virus and popup problems... "Sorry, I'm a Gnu/Linux user, so I can't help"... :-p -- Marc
Le 13 Juin 2006 15:58, Piotr Majdak a écrit :
Marc Lavallée wrote:
Well, Windows is not an operating system, it's a gigantic kludge to secure a monopolistic empire. PD works better on Gnu/Linux (and probably OSX), so the more you give to Windows users, the longer they will be stucked using it.
<sarcasm> Yes, you're on the right way - start another flame war, we really need it here... </sarcasm>
I can't speak for the rest - but I prefer constructive constributions here. Your opinion about different OSs doesn't contribute to this thread in any way...
To me, suggesting people to stop using Windows and use a free OS will always be a very constructive contribution. My intention is not to start a flame war, because we are free to use a proprietary OS, and its always possible to switch. My constructive contributions sometimes involve programming software for Windows, but rarely, only for money, and when the application is completely OS agnostic. Even if PD work on Windows, I prefer to use this free software on a free OS for various practical and ethical reasons.
my other 2 cents.
Marc
To me, suggesting people to stop using Windows and use a free OS will
always be a very constructive contribution. My intention is not to start a flame war, because we are free to use a proprietary OS, and its always possible to switch. My constructive contributions sometimes involve programming software for Windows, but rarely, only for money, and when the
application is completely OS agnostic. Even if PD work on Windows, I prefer to use
this free software on a free OS for various practical and ethical reasons.
you spoke about programming. that means that you're a programmer, right?
I'm not, as the great majority of computer users, and don't have the time
to spend in forums and web-search when some unix system doesn't know how
to configure itself for some hardware (specially when it says that it can
and/or it is). or even worse, when some programmers think that because
they know how to set each variable they decide that everyone should do it
as well, and to install one program it is necessary to read the whole
programming manual or install an x number of other programs.
I'm willing to drop windows for linux (I already have ubuntu installed,
and tried already several times to do it with other distributions). Since
I don't have much more time or pacience to spend my life browsing the net
or mailing people to solve problems like the printer doesn't work (even
thought it says in the screen that it is installed) and the winmodem can't
be configured, or the newest one, sometimes gnome doesn't want to start
(and the official documentation about these problems is some mail in a
thread somewhere - if someone is nice enough to post it -, and not in the
program's homepage), I invite you to come here and setup my system until
it works. I can't afford to pay you, so I can offer that I host you and
cater for you. Is this constructive enough?
windows might be not "pure" in body and spirit, but it works, and you
don't have to loose as much time setting it up as with unix systems - when
you're not a programmer (as is the case with almost all musicians). even
to build up pd on unix it's necessary to look around the makefile and
change by hand some variables, but this isn't clearly mentioned in the
documentation. is that supposed to be user-friendly?
if you're looking to be pure in ethical matters, you should emmigrate to a
deserted island and speak to no one. in the real world every contact you
make with someone will be always a compromise. you just have to look deep
enough and something rotten will be there.
my 2 EU-cents
João Miguel Pais
I invite you to come here and setup my system until it works. I can't afford to pay you, so I can offer that I host you and cater for you. Is this constructive enough?
this is exatly what marc did for me. i will be always thankful to him because it changed how i think and what i do. now i have a low latency (very low) system for doing realtime audio and video and it's stable and free. it worth it.
pat
I invite you to come here and setup my system until it works. I can't
afford to pay you, so I can offer that I host you and cater for you.
Is this constructive enough?this is exatly what marc did for me. i will be always thankful to him
because it changed how i think and what i do. now i have a low latency
(very low) system for doing realtime audio and video and it's stable and
free. it worth it.
oh, you mean that for your system to work you must have had a programmer
setting it up, since you couldn't do it yourself? that's exactly what I
mean that is the problem, thanks for agreeing with me. I think it's great
that you found a sollution. In my case (and many other ones) where I don't
know any programmer who has the time / will to come here and spend some
hours/days working on it, so I'll have to keep doing it slowly if I want
to set up that system.
It's great that people leave code and programs (some very good) for others
to use/adapt - but if they want it to be a real alternative they must
adapt themselves as well, and not consider the package finished when the
code works, but also devote some time to the documentation. Look at pd to
see it happening. I personally don't need pddp, but lots of people do, and
are really happy with it. Pd-affictionates will always work with pd, even
if it spits on their face. But other persons (I don't know if I should
call them "the normal user") that want to do similar things will give up
when they realise that the program wasn't ment for them (as I've seen it
happening at school).
Joao
João Miguel Pais wrote:
oh, you mean that for your system to work you must have had a programmer setting it up, since you couldn't do it yourself? that's exactly what I mean that is the problem, thanks for agreeing with me. I think it's great that you found a sollution. In my case (and many other ones) where I don't know any programmer who has the time / will to come here and spend some hours/days working on it, so I'll have to keep doing it slowly if I want to set up that system.
I agree with you. You need money or knowledge. If you have money, you buy a system which you can use. If you have knowledge, you build this system by yourself. In your case, you want to use a cheap software (open source) and pay somebody to fix it. This may be more expensive than byuing a closed software, to which you are familiar.
It's great that people leave code and programs (some very good) for others to use/adapt - but if they want it to be a real alternative they must adapt themselves as well, and not consider the package finished when the code works, but also devote some time to the documentation.
This happens because people with knowledge (programmer) forget what they don't know anymore :-( Some guys even forget that they were user once...
br, Piotr, still a user...
Hallo, João Miguel Pais hat gesagt: // João Miguel Pais wrote:
oh, you mean that for your system to work you must have had a programmer
setting it up, since you couldn't do it yourself? that's exactly what I
mean that is the problem, thanks for agreeing with me. I think it's great
that you found a sollution. In my case (and many other ones) where I don't
know any programmer who has the time / will to come here and spend some
hours/days working on it, so I'll have to keep doing it slowly if I want
to set up that system.
Actually the kind of person you talk about here is not a programmer, it's a system administrator. Our previous sysadmin at work used to become very upset when someone called him a programmer: "I'm not a programmer, I'm a system administrator. I don't code."
Installing printer drivers or configuring a webserver has nothing to do with coding. You're a programmer when you are developing Pd patches, but you're not, when you're filling out some dialog boxes in the Control Panel.
Personally I didn't start using Linux because I was convinced of the Free Software idea (that came later). I started, because I just didn't manage to get Windows 3.1 to connect to the internet, which is a typical sysadmin task. Compared to that, with Linux, configuring TCP/IP and PPP was dead easy. Also a freshly installed Linux system has all software I need, whereas a freshly installed Windows system doesn't even come with a decent text editor, let alone a full Office Software package, a useable email client (no, Outlook Express is not useable) and good sound and image editing software. All of this has to be installed later and maybe even is very expensive or bothers its users with nasty registration procedures.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
On Fri, 2006-06-16 at 00:22 +0200, João Miguel Pais wrote:
windows might be not "pure" in body and spirit, but it works, and you
don't have to loose as much time setting it up as with unix systems
hmm,
i didnt want to answer on this, so i appologize forehand ! (please stop reading if youre affraid of "flamewar", lol)
but so many people just dont think far enough...
why does ms-windows just work ?
why do hardware manufacturers do only ms-windows "compatible" hardware ?
closed source, so what! but why only windows drivers ?
do you really think "linux" is to blame that some "designed for microsoft" hardware doesnt work under "linux" ?! O.o
btw. do the "mac-people" now start to whine too why "designed for microsoft" hardware doesnt work in their intel "linux"/unix, eg. osx ?
if you know howto install ms-windows, and you know that your hardware works under linux, i cant see ANY reason why you would have problems installing linux, like ubuntu.
mein gott... -andre
FYI: on my desktop (k7s5a, duron1.2, geforce6200, miro pctv, terraTV) and dell latitude c800, ubuntu "just worked", and even installed faster than ms-windows, LOL? (with all drivers and essential software, of course!)... ah, and even my printer/scanner hp psc1215 worked "out-of-the-box" under ubuntu...
Le 15 Juin 2006 18:22, João Miguel Pais a écrit :
you spoke about programming. that means that you're a programmer, right?
I'm a user that program, sometimes, not very well, but I try my best.
I'm not, as the great majority of computer users, and don't have the time to spend in forums and web-search when some unix system doesn't know how to configure itself for some hardware (specially when it says that it can and/or it is). or even worse, when some programmers think that because they know how to set each variable they decide that everyone should do it as well, and to install one program it is necessary to read the whole programming manual or install an x number of other programs.
Recent Gnu/Linux distributions are quite easy to configure. As a non-Windows user, I can assure you that I'm suffering a lot when I have to install and configure a Windows system. I don't know how to use OSX; each time I tried I freaked out, and I had to pop a bash terminal to use some of it... To me, a good Gnu/Linux system is much easier to use, it makes me feel at home. It's just a question of time, as with any OS and software. Time is money, that's why I invest mine learning about free software, because free software belongs to us, not them...
I'm willing to drop windows for linux (I already have ubuntu installed, and tried already several times to do it with other distributions).
Great. Ubuntu is (supposedly) a very good distribution (although I believe it breaks compatibility with Debian, but I might be wrong).
Since I don't have much more time or pacience to spend my life browsing the net or mailing people to solve problems like the printer doesn't work (even thought it says in the screen that it is installed) and the winmodem can't be configured, or the newest one, sometimes gnome doesn't want to start (and the official documentation about these problems is some mail in a thread somewhere - if someone is nice enough to post it -, and not in the program's homepage), I invite you to come here and setup my system until it works. I can't afford to pay you, so I can offer that I host you and cater for you. Is this constructive enough?
Then try KDE instead of Gnome. Don't expect all newest computers designed for Windows to work out of the box with Gnu/Linux. Maybe I can help; send me a private message so we can arrange my free travel with food and entertainment ;-)
windows might be not "pure" in body and spirit, but it works, and you don't have to loose as much time setting it up as with unix systems - when you're not a programmer (as is the case with almost all musicians).
I agree. Even Linus Torvald agreed a couple of years ago; he prefered his own father to use Windows, because it was easier for common tasks. Even Eric Raymond (the gun nut of open source) wrote a long a bitchy comment about the problems of printing with Gnu/Linux. But things are getting better. About winmodems, you should know (as their names implies) that they were designed to work exclusively in Windows with proprietary drivers, so they are not real modems; next time don't buy a computer with a winmodem, or get a real modem.
even to build up pd on unix it's necessary to look around the makefile and change by hand some variables, but this isn't clearly mentioned in the documentation. is that supposed to be user-friendly?
I suspect it's not easier to build it on Windows. And you don't have to build it, it's already compiled for Windows, OSX and Gnu/Linux.
But if you want to build it for Gnu/Linux, once you know about a couple of important paths, it's friendly enough; the average user have plenty of free neurons to remember a few basic things, but most refuse to fire those precious cells because they were brainwashed to believe that a computer is only a mouse and a screen to show some popup ads, which is like thinking that a car is no more than a gaz pedal on 4 wheels, with a seat in between and a windshield to look at gigantic ads on the highway.
I suggest to read "in the beginning was the command line" by Neil Stephenson (try to google it). If you're really too impatient, don't use a computer, because all complex technologies sold in supermarkets are dangerous for the soul, especially those with "friendly user" tags.
if you're looking to be pure in ethical matters, you should emmigrate to a deserted island and speak to no one. in the real world every contact you make with someone will be always a compromise. you just have to look deep enough and something rotten will be there.
I was on a Gnu/Linux desert island about 10 years ago. I stayed there and now lots of people are staying with me. My deserted island is more like a flourishing continent, growing on top of rotten PC user's brains. If you ever see a penguin in your Windows desert, maybe it's not a mirage. -- Marc
I forgot, the previous message should have had [OT] in the title.
Joao
On 6/13/06, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@eds.org wrote:
[shell] doesn't work on Windows and [py] has crashing issues and doesn't necessarily work easily on Windows. Plus I've never used python, and don't really want to learn any new languages right now (I know enough, its time to get some work done!).
Yeah,
[shell] always ends up saying : "old process still running"... Not very good for serious scripting. And then PD crashes. I would often use [shell] if it wasn't that problematic.
-
Alexandre Quessy -
Andre Schmidt -
chris clepper -
Frank Barknecht -
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
João Miguel Pais -
Marc Lavallée -
oliver -
patrick -
Piotr Majdak -
Thomas Grill