Hey all,
Adam Hyde, Derek Holzer, me, and others are working to organize a Pd
book sprint to continue work on the Pure Data book that was started
before. It is looking like it will be in early April (soon!) and both
in NYC and Berlin, connected via video streams.
We are still working out the details, but I just wanted to get the
word out now so that people can plan on it and come and participate in
Berlin or NYC. One thing that could be very useful is advice on how
to best stream this kind of thing. For example, should we use GISS?
Ekiga? Skype?
.hc
'You people have such restrictive dress for women,’ she said, hobbling
away in three inch heels and panty hose to finish out another pink-
collar temp pool day. - “Hijab Scene #2", by Mohja Kahf
ola,
For example, should we use GISS? Ekiga? Skype?
the main difference between a video streaming solution and a video conference solution ( ekiga, skype ) is that anybody is able to see what's happening, e.g. that's it's public ( no need to authentify and join a conference room ).. so it depends on what you want..
xiaoo, sevy
On Mar 16, 2009, at 12:51 AM, ydegoyon@gmail.com wrote:
ola,
For example, should we use GISS? Ekiga? Skype?
the main difference between a video streaming solution and a video conference solution ( ekiga, skype ) is that anybody is able to see what's happening, e.g. that's it's public ( no need to authentify and join a conference room ).. so it depends on what you want..
I think the other key difference is that ekiga/skype are tuned for low
latency while streaming is usually tuned to have a big buffer so that
the stream doesn't get interrupted.
Any idea on the latency of GISS? When I was using Darwin Streaming
Server, it usually had a buffer of 10 seconds, which makes live
interaction impossible. I suppose we could have one computer
streaming and the other doing video conferencing.
.hc
As we enjoy great advantages from inventions of others, we should be
glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours; and
this we should do freely and generously. - Benjamin Franklin
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Mar 16, 2009, at 12:51 AM, ydegoyon@gmail.com wrote:
ola,
For example, should we use GISS? Ekiga? Skype?
the main difference between a video streaming solution and a video conference solution ( ekiga, skype ) is that anybody is able to see what's happening, e.g. that's it's public ( no need to authentify and join a conference room ).. so it depends on what you want..
I think the other key difference is that ekiga/skype are tuned for low latency while streaming is usually tuned to have a big buffer so that the stream doesn't get interrupted.
the tipical question where there is no answer.. is there an answer to 'how much latency you get with pd compared to using analog sound effects ?' all depends on many parameters and all is setable also, even in the client that receives..
Any idea on the latency of GISS? When I was using Darwin Streaming Server, it usually had a buffer of 10 seconds,
nahh, surely less ( except maybe with dv )
xiaoo, sevy
My tendency is to keep everything as simple and low-tech as possible. Does video conferencing add anything substantial that IRC doesn't have already? Do we want to do interpretive dance for each other in order to write a FLOSS manual? Do we really need to look at another room full of people sitting behind laptops across the ocean somewhere? Does anybody ever actually watch these video streams from meetings like these? I could see some sense if there was some sort of presentation aspect, but these will be working sessions, i.e. very boring to look at .
D.
Derek Holzer schrieb:
My tendency is to keep everything as simple and low-tech as possible. Does video conferencing add anything substantial that IRC doesn't have already? Do we want to do interpretive dance for each other in order to write a FLOSS manual? Do we really need to look at another room full of people sitting behind laptops across the ocean somewhere? Does anybody ever actually watch these video streams from meetings like these? I could see some sense if there was some sort of presentation aspect, but these will be working sessions, i.e. very boring to look at .
You are right. And if one really wants to speak/see each other, one can use ekiga, skype or whatever ...
LG Georg
On Mar 16, 2009, at 8:54 AM, Georg Holzmann wrote:
Derek Holzer schrieb:
My tendency is to keep everything as simple and low-tech as
possible. Does video conferencing add anything substantial that IRC
doesn't have already? Do we want to do interpretive dance for each
other in order to write a FLOSS manual? Do we really need to look
at another room full of people sitting behind laptops across the
ocean somewhere? Does anybody ever actually watch these video
streams from meetings like these? I could see some sense if there
was some sort of presentation aspect, but these will be working
sessions, i.e. very boring to look at .You are right. And if one really wants to speak/see each other, one can use ekiga,
skype or whatever ...
I find IRC meetings to be very unproductive. Everyone is usually too
busy multitasking to get anything done in the meeting. I think that
the high bandwidth of voice and seeing the person holds your attention
longer, so there is less multitasking and more focused discussion.
That said, if the audio connection is bad, then it gets worse than
IRC. IRC is good for asking pointed questions back and forth, better
than audio/video chat.
I think we should have IRC running, but also it would be great to have
video chat with projectors, speakers, and a decent mic setup. Marius
and I ran the streaming for a class at Brooklyn Poly. One student was
joining in from Canada. When it was set up and running well, it
actually worked quite well. This means spending a little time setting
up the speakers and mics, and a projector is good too instead of a
screen. Since this will be happening over three days, it makes sense
to spend some time on setup. ITP can provide all of the equipment on
the NYC end.
.hc
LG Georg
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to
realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either
change them, or perish. -William Carlos Williams
2009/3/16 Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@eds.org:
I think we should have IRC running, but also it would be great to have video chat with projectors, speakers, and a decent mic setup. Marius and I ran the streaming for a class at Brooklyn Poly. One student was joining in from Canada. When it was set up and running well, it actually worked quite well.
we used iChat for these sessions, and usually there were 3 streams involved. if more than one person is involved on one side, you really have to put some focus on the audio aspect, like using microphones that can be passed around. I will be in Berlin from mar27 to mar30, and I would also like to contribute to the book sprint, but it is difficult for me during week/business hours. is tehre already a plan for the schedule? marius.
This means spending a little time setting up the speakers and mics, and a projector is good too instead of a screen. Since this will be happening over three days, it makes sense to spend some time on setup. ITP can provide all of the equipment on the NYC end.
.hc
LG Georg
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Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either change them, or perish. -William Carlos Williams
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Glad there is some interest!!!!! It's looking like it will be 4, 5, 6 April (Saturday-Monday). I will post again when all is confirmed.
best! Derek
Georg Holzmann wrote:
Hallo!
I will be in Berlin from mar27 to mar30, and I would also like to contribute to the book sprint, but it is difficult for me during week/business hours.
Yes, this weekend would be also nice for me ;) !
LG Georg
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I'll be back in Berlin on the 25th. I'm usually flexible - i.e. I must
work, but not on a fixed schedule.
what's actually the theme of the work to be done? I saw no link so far. a
book on pd, what could that be? printing the tutorials and appending them
together?
I will be in Berlin from mar27 to mar30, and I would also like to contribute to the book sprint, but it is difficult for me during week/business hours.
Yes, this weekend would be also nice for me ;) !
LG Georg
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Hi João,
sorry not to be clearer... in between Pd workshop last week and week long "tour" in London this week.
Here is the existing Pd FLOSS Manual:
http://en.flossmanuals.net/puredata
And I will post more info about chapters which need work soon. You can check archives of Pd list for previous discussion of Pd FLOSS in the meantime, and make yourself a login at flossmanuals.net and have a "behind the scenes" look beforehand, but when I'm back from London on 25th I'll be able to explain better. Would be great to have you on board!
best, Derek
João Pais wrote:
I'll be back in Berlin on the 25th. I'm usually flexible - i.e. I must work, but not on a fixed schedule.
what's actually the theme of the work to be done? I saw no link so far. a book on pd, what could that be? printing the tutorials and appending them together?
I will be in Berlin from mar27 to mar30, and I would also like to contribute to the book sprint, but it is difficult for me during week/business hours.
Yes, this weekend would be also nice for me ;) !
LG Georg
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Ah, of course, I haven't seen that for a while. Ok, after I'm back on the
25th as well, I should remain for a while there. Although there is still
MÀrzmusik happening at that time.
sorry not to be clearer... in between Pd workshop last week and week
long "tour" in London this week.Here is the existing Pd FLOSS Manual:
http://en.flossmanuals.net/puredata
And I will post more info about chapters which need work soon. You can
check archives of Pd list for previous discussion of Pd FLOSS in the
meantime, and make yourself a login at flossmanuals.net and have a
"behind the scenes" look beforehand, but when I'm back from London on
25th I'll be able to explain better. Would be great to have you on board!best, Derek
João Pais wrote:
I'll be back in Berlin on the 25th. I'm usually flexible - i.e. I must
work, but not on a fixed schedule. what's actually the theme of the work to be done? I saw no link so
far. a book on pd, what could that be? printing the tutorials and
appending them together?I will be in Berlin from mar27 to mar30, and I would also like to contribute to the book sprint, but it is difficult for me during week/business hours.
Yes, this weekend would be also nice for me ;) !
LG Georg
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Mar 16, 2009, at 1:53 PM, Georg Holzmann wrote:
Hallo!
I will be in Berlin from mar27 to mar30, and I would also like to contribute to the book sprint, but it is difficult for me during week/business hours.
Yes, this weekend would be also nice for me ;) !
What time are people thinking of starting in Berlin? I am trying to
organize the space in NYC. Will this be a morning thing there? If
so, that's easier for NYC time to sync up with. But that's not
essential.
.hc
If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of
exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an
idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps
it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into
the possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself
of it. - Thomas Jefferson
I charge double for mornings ;-)
Honestly, I don't expect anything to ever happen in Berlin before noon, anywhere.
Why is morning here easier to sync up with there? I don't get it.... Should be afternoons/evenings would be easier to get during NY daytime...
D.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Mar 16, 2009, at 1:53 PM, Georg Holzmann wrote:
Hallo!
I will be in Berlin from mar27 to mar30, and I would also like to contribute to the book sprint, but it is difficult for me during week/business hours.
Yes, this weekend would be also nice for me ;) !
What time are people thinking of starting in Berlin? I am trying to organize the space in NYC. Will this be a morning thing there? If so, that's easier for NYC time to sync up with. But that's not essential.
I think we have the space on Saturday/Sunday noon til midnight and
Monday til 9am-6pm EDT, but the room is occupied 6-9pm on Monday. But
wait, I think I had my time zones mixed up. 6pm in NYC would be
midnight in Berlin, so that works well then.
.hc
On Mar 16, 2009, at 6:12 PM, Derek Holzer wrote:
I charge double for mornings ;-)
Honestly, I don't expect anything to ever happen in Berlin before
noon, anywhere.Why is morning here easier to sync up with there? I don't get it....
Should be afternoons/evenings would be easier to get during NY
daytime...D.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Mar 16, 2009, at 1:53 PM, Georg Holzmann wrote:
Hallo!
I will be in Berlin from mar27 to mar30, and I would also like to contribute to the book sprint, but it is difficult for me during week/business hours.
Yes, this weekend would be also nice for me ;) !
What time are people thinking of starting in Berlin? I am trying
to organize the space in NYC. Will this be a morning thing there?
If so, that's easier for NYC time to sync up with. But that's not
essential.-- ::: derek holzer ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista ::: http://www.vimeo.com/macumbista ::: ---Oblique Strategy # 69: "Feed the recording back out of the medium"
All information should be free. - the hacker ethic
i am really unsure what you are talking about.. a meeting is what it is, and the medium will never dictate what you are talking about and the intensity with which it is conducted.. perhaps face to face contact is good for watching the iris quiver and building a psychological profile based on that particular interaction, but really the amount of focus and dedication that anyone gives to a subject is dependent on variables that are quite out of control to other participants.
in terms of multi-tasking... i am usually engaged on a number of things in any given time period.. what at least is consistent about IRC is that i can chose to focus on any given problem without having to make myself publically withdrawn from the discussion, and in such a circumstance i have a log to refer to what i have missed..
which leads me to my final point.. i have a log.. which everyone does, without transcription, without poor pronunciation and bad language getting in the way.. easy to archive and so on..
i have no real interest in the topic, but i have been a particpant in enough 'online meetings' to know that video conferencing is a complete waste of time, beyond the initial distraction of connectivity issues..
if people have something valid to say and real-time is the only productive forum then IRC works and works well, otherwise voice probably makes up for where text lacks, but only in small groups.. video is just an unnecessary and unproductive formality..
meetings are never as productive as the facilitato
On Monday 16 March 2009 22:53:56 Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I find IRC meetings to be very unproductive. Everyone is usually too busy multitasking to get anything done in the meeting. I think that the high bandwidth of voice and seeing the person holds your attention longer, so there is less multitasking and more focused discussion. That said, if the audio connection is bad, then it gets worse than IRC. IRC is good for asking pointed questions back and forth, better than audio/video chat.
I think we should have IRC running, but also it would be great to have video chat with projectors, speakers, and a decent mic setup. Marius and I ran the streaming for a class at Brooklyn Poly. One student was joining in from Canada. When it was set up and running well, it actually worked quite well. This means spending a little time setting up the speakers and mics, and a projector is good too instead of a screen. Since this will be happening over three days, it makes sense to spend some time on setup. ITP can provide all of the equipment on the NYC end.
.hc
LG Georg
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Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either change them, or perish. -William Carlos Williams
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On Mon, 16 Mar 2009, dmotd wrote:
i am really unsure what you are talking about.. a meeting is what it is, and the medium will never dictate what you are talking about and the intensity with which it is conducted.. perhaps face to face contact is good for watching the iris quiver and building a psychological profile based on that particular interaction,
It also goes the other way around. The knowledge of being watched leads people to act very differently:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KV9vOQiBTQ
(a 1994 classic... but very undermarketed)
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec
Marshall McLuhan would strongly disagree with you, as do I. The
medium with which you communicate has a very strong impact on the
conversation. That does not mean that it is the only influence.
There are many things that lead to a bad meeting, and from my
experience of having many meetings in person, on IRC, on IM, on
phones, on voice chat, on video chat, and many different mixes above,
I am a strong believer in high-bandwidth communication like voice.
.hc
On Mar 16, 2009, at 1:29 PM, dmotd wrote:
i am really unsure what you are talking about.. a meeting is what it
is, and the medium will never dictate what you are talking about and the
intensity with which it is conducted.. perhaps face to face contact is good for watching the iris quiver and building a psychological profile based
on that particular interaction, but really the amount of focus and
dedication that anyone gives to a subject is dependent on variables that are quite
out of control to other participants.in terms of multi-tasking... i am usually engaged on a number of
things in any given time period.. what at least is consistent about IRC is that i
can chose to focus on any given problem without having to make myself publically withdrawn from the discussion, and in such a circumstance i have a
log to refer to what i have missed..which leads me to my final point.. i have a log.. which everyone
does, without transcription, without poor pronunciation and bad language getting
in the way.. easy to archive and so on..i have no real interest in the topic, but i have been a particpant in enough 'online meetings' to know that video conferencing is a
complete waste of time, beyond the initial distraction of connectivity issues..if people have something valid to say and real-time is the only
productive forum then IRC works and works well, otherwise voice probably makes
up for where text lacks, but only in small groups.. video is just an
unnecessary and unproductive formality..meetings are never as productive as the facilitato
On Monday 16 March 2009 22:53:56 Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I find IRC meetings to be very unproductive. Everyone is usually too busy multitasking to get anything done in the meeting. I think that the high bandwidth of voice and seeing the person holds your
attention longer, so there is less multitasking and more focused discussion. That said, if the audio connection is bad, then it gets worse than IRC. IRC is good for asking pointed questions back and forth, better than audio/video chat.I think we should have IRC running, but also it would be great to
have video chat with projectors, speakers, and a decent mic setup. Marius and I ran the streaming for a class at Brooklyn Poly. One student
was joining in from Canada. When it was set up and running well, it actually worked quite well. This means spending a little time
setting up the speakers and mics, and a projector is good too instead of a screen. Since this will be happening over three days, it makes sense to spend some time on setup. ITP can provide all of the equipment on the NYC end..hc
LG Georg
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Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either change them, or perish. -William Carlos Williams
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kill your television
Is this a one time thing, or might happen more times? I would say that at
least voice connection would be productive. I haven't that much experience
with video conferencing, but a medium where people can react at the same
time they can think would be important. (although after too much time,
even the fingers are faster than some heads)
How about voice connection for general talk + an irc chat for small, fast
questions? We can also send a group foto with skype, so that everyone
feels the warmth.
Marshall McLuhan would strongly disagree with you, as do I. The medium
with which you communicate has a very strong impact on the
conversation. That does not mean that it is the only influence. There
are many things that lead to a bad meeting, and from my experience of
having many meetings in person, on IRC, on IM, on phones, on voice chat,
on video chat, and many different mixes above, I am a strong believer in
high-bandwidth communication like voice.
Yeah, in case I came across too strong, I think that IRC is very
useful, and voice chat is too. We can have both running for this
meeting, and people can choose where they participate. IRC is great
for async communications, like asking specific questions. But I find
it takes 10-20x longer to work through difficult issues thru text-only
media like IRC, IM, email, etc. as compared to a voice conversation.
.hc
On Mar 16, 2009, at 7:32 PM, João Pais wrote:
Is this a one time thing, or might happen more times? I would say
that at least voice connection would be productive. I haven't that
much experience with video conferencing, but a medium where people
can react at the same time they can think would be important.
(although after too much time, even the fingers are faster than some
heads)How about voice connection for general talk + an irc chat for small,
fast questions? We can also send a group foto with skype, so that
everyone feels the warmth.Marshall McLuhan would strongly disagree with you, as do I. The
medium with which you communicate has a very strong impact on the
conversation. That does not mean that it is the only influence.
There are many things that lead to a bad meeting, and from my
experience of having many meetings in person, on IRC, on IM, on
phones, on voice chat, on video chat, and many different mixes
above, I am a strong believer in high-bandwidth communication like
voice.
Mistrust authority - promote decentralization. - the hacker ethic
Hi
This is quite along post but I thought the background was needed for
it to make sense.
Background
I have previous programming experience however I have been using Pure
Data for several months now and am enjoying learning it. I am trying
to learn DSP for myself purely out of personal interest for the
subject. I bought a book on DSP and became hooked after reading it. :)
From that point I have relearnt all the A-level maths I studied over
10 years ago and a few bits of physics, I have gone the the whole of
Millers book on Pure Data and whilst I would be lying if I said the
whole thing made sense I can certainly understand and implement alot
of it.
I then moved on to Julius Smiths books on digital filters and
physical modelling which is where I am at the moment. And I am making
slow progress there as there is alot to assimilate in that I need to
not only be able to understand the topic related to Physics, Maths
etc. but then know how to use Matlab and C++ and Faust which is all
quite a mountain.
Long Term Aim
What I want to do eventually when things make more sense is to work
with creating my own physical models which if I am to do it in pure
data would surely need me to create externals to run the filtering
all inside one object.
System
Mac OS 10.4.11 Macbook, Pure Data, Octave, Max/Msp, Xcode, Downloaded
and installed Faust but not sure how to invoke it :(
Mission
What I would like to be able to do is to take the examples I am
reading about in Julius Smiths books and create them as externals
within Pure Data so I can use them, Play with them :)
I.e. the book that I am working through 'Introduction to digital
filters' contains lots of example Matlab and C code for different
filters and also mentions Faust, then there is also flext to consider.
http://puredata.info/Members/thomas/flext-intro.pdf
Q) I want to create my own Pure data objects specifically filters
starting with the examples in Julius Smiths book. What would be the
most straight forward path to take to begin with given my System,
lack of experience, aims ???? what I would like is the easiest route
to begin with :)
I.e. seem to have all these programs Octave (matlab), Faust,
Xcode ,Flext, Terminal etc.
which would be the best path to follow to learn to create my own
externals.
Tuition
If there is anyone in the Cambridge England area who does one to one
tuition and could teach me how to create my own externals please let
me know.
Guidance appreciated Geoff
Hallo!
experience, aims ???? what I would like is the easiest route to begin with :)*
First rule is always: use C/C++ only if it is _really_ necessary. (you can design most of your filters also with pd's elementary filter objects ...)
If you really want DSP externals: http://pdstatic.iem.at/externals-HOWTO/
LG Georg
I.e. seem to have all these programs Octave (matlab), Faust, Xcode ,Flext, Terminal etc.
which would be the best path to follow to learn to create my own externals.
Tuition If there is anyone in the Cambridge England area who does one to one tuition and could teach me how to create my own externals please let me know.
Guidance appreciated Geoff
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maybe you could have a look to : http://pdstatic.iem.at/externals-HOWTO ...
2009/3/17 Geoff geoffspuredata@googlemail.com:
Hi This is quite along post but I thought the background was needed for it to make sense. Background I have previous programming experience however I have been using Pure Data for several months now and am enjoying learning it. I am trying to learn DSP for myself purely out of personal interest for the subject. I bought a book on DSP and became hooked after reading it. :) From that point I have relearnt all the A-level maths I studied over 10 years ago and a few bits of physics, I have gone the the whole of Millers book on Pure Data and whilst I would be lying if I said the whole thing made sense I can certainly understand and implement alot of it. I then moved on to Julius Smiths books on digital filters and physical modelling which is where I am at the moment. And I am making slow progress there as there is alot to assimilate in that I need to not only be able to understand the topic related to Physics, Maths etc. but then know how to use Matlab and C++ and Faust which is all quite a mountain. Long Term Aim What I want to do eventually when things make more sense is to work with creating my own physical models which if I am to do it in pure data would surely need me to create externals to run the filtering all inside one object. System Mac OS 10.4.11 Macbook, Pure Data, Octave, Max/Msp, Xcode, Downloaded and installed Faust but not sure how to invoke it :( Mission What I would like to be able to do is to take the examples I am reading about in Julius Smiths books and create them as externals within Pure Data so I can use them, Play with them :) I.e. the book that I am working through 'Introduction to digital filters' contains lots of example Matlab and C code for different filters and also mentions Faust, then there is also flext to consider. http://puredata.info/Members/thomas/flext-intro.pdf Q) I want to create my own Pure data objects specifically filters starting with the examples in Julius Smiths book. What would be the most straight forward path to take to begin with given my System, lack of experience, aims ???? what I would like is the easiest route to begin with :) I.e. seem to have all these programs Octave (matlab), Faust, Xcode ,Flext, Terminal etc. which would be the best path to follow to learn to create my own externals. Tuition If there is anyone in the Cambridge England area who does one to one tuition and could teach me how to create my own externals please let me know. Guidance appreciated Geoff
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Hello,
If you have the example in faust, there is an online compiler for puredata external: http://faust.grame.fr/compiler.php I haven't test it though.
Nicolas
Le 17/03/09 15:28, Geoff a écrit :
*Q) I want to create my own Pure data objects specifically filters starting with the examples in Julius Smiths book. What would be the most straight forward path to take to begin with given my System, lack of experience, aims ???? what I would like is the easiest route to begin with :)*
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 15:52:17 +0100 Nicolas Montgermont nicolas_montgermont@yahoo.fr wrote:
Hello,
If you have the example in faust, there is an online compiler for puredata external: http://faust.grame.fr/compiler.php I haven't test it though.
It works very well. Though the question you arrive at is, do you want to think in Faust's symbolic 'DSP algebra'? It's actually very elegant, but is a cognitive island (as a further aside, it is easier to pick up if you already think in dataflow). The problem is, ordinary C and C++ code isn't easy to integrate. The code generated by the filter is tersely optimised.
A temporary happy solution is to use Faust's Pd arch filter to make some ready made wrappers. Then just drop C/++ code into the main loop. It gets around the chores of building a Pd external from scratch each time.
But, if you are going to start doing that sort of thing, that's what Flext is supposed to be for, though it doesn't quite work out as easy as you might hope.
The idea that you can compile for VST, Max, Pd or a standalone GUI app is very appealing, for both Flext and Faust.
Ultimately, the logical thing is to amplify what Georg says:
Develop in Pd. For a vast majority of DSP development Pd with variable blocksize is a perfect tool if you could only work in dataflow THEN: hit "compile"
****** Pd should be able to compile its own externals *******
then you'd get an external built from a properly componentised pdlib that you can immediately include into the running patch (no having to exit Pd to flush cached classes), just continue building abstraction upon abstraction (as compiled code) this way.
A nice example of this would be building filters like biquad starting with just [+~], [*~] and [z~]. Then in the second round using them to make a synthesiser. Then in the third round using those to make a stand alone musical application ... all in a days development!
as Bill Hicks would say... "just planting seeds...."
Nicolas
Le 17/03/09 15:28, Geoff a écrit :
*Q) I want to create my own Pure data objects specifically filters starting with the examples in Julius Smiths book. What would be the most straight forward path to take to begin with given my System, lack of experience, aims ???? what I would like is the easiest route to begin with :)*
Thanks for the reply This is interesting, but I am not sure if I understand you correctly.
A nice example of this would be building filters like biquad starting with just [+~], [*~] and [z~]. Then in the second round using them to make a synthesiser. Then in the third round using those to make a stand alone musical application ... all in a days development!
So I can actually build filters from smaller building blocks in PD,
So things like a Delay line to simulate a string is possible where by
I can actually change the filtering in the feedback and feedforward
paths to simulate different conditions?
I.e. using [Z~] [*] I can create things like a comb filter but then
have the freedom to put other sorts of filtering in it to make it
more complex i.e. simulate the end effects of strings etc. all inside
a single object.
I thought that this can be done in PD as a test exercise but not if I
want to create something that will actually work fast enough to be
usable as a synthesizer. I'm glad to have been wrong!
Develop in Pd. For a vast majority of DSP development Pd with variable blocksize is a perfect tool if you could only work in dataflow THEN: hit "compile"
Are there any tutorials on this any where?
****** Pd should be able to compile its own externals *******
then you'd get an external built from a properly componentised pdlib
Where can I find further information about this?
that you can immediately include into the running patch (no having
to exit Pd to flush cached classes), just continue building abstraction upon abstraction (as compiled code) this way.
Cheers Geoff
On 17 Mar 2009, at 15:32, Andy Farnell wrote:
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 15:52:17 +0100 Nicolas Montgermont nicolas_montgermont@yahoo.fr wrote:
Hello,
If you have the example in faust, there is an online compiler for puredata external: http://faust.grame.fr/compiler.php I haven't test it though.
It works very well. Though the question you arrive at is, do you want to think in Faust's symbolic 'DSP algebra'? It's actually very elegant, but is a cognitive island (as a further aside, it is easier to pick up if you already think in dataflow). The problem is, ordinary C and C++ code isn't easy to integrate. The code
generated by the filter is tersely optimised.A temporary happy solution is to use Faust's Pd arch filter to make some ready made wrappers. Then just drop C/++ code into the main loop. It gets around the chores of building a Pd external from scratch
each time.But, if you are going to start doing that sort of thing, that's what Flext is supposed to be for, though it doesn't quite work out as easy as you might hope.
The idea that you can compile for VST, Max, Pd or a standalone GUI app is very appealing, for both Flext and Faust.
Ultimately, the logical thing is to amplify what Georg says:
Develop in Pd. For a vast majority of DSP development Pd with variable blocksize is a perfect tool if you could only work in dataflow THEN: hit "compile"
****** Pd should be able to compile its own externals *******
then you'd get an external built from a properly componentised pdlib that you can immediately include into the running patch (no having
to exit Pd to flush cached classes), just continue building abstraction upon abstraction (as compiled code) this way.A nice example of this would be building filters like biquad starting with just [+~], [*~] and [z~]. Then in the second round using them to make a synthesiser. Then in the third round using those to make a stand alone musical application ... all in a days development!
as Bill Hicks would say... "just planting seeds...."
Nicolas
Le 17/03/09 15:28, Geoff a écrit :
*Q) I want to create my own Pure data objects specifically filters starting with the examples in Julius Smiths book. What would be the most straight forward path to take to begin with given my System,
lack of experience, aims ???? what I would like is the easiest route to begin with :)*-- Use the source
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:00:32 +0000 Geoff geoffspuredata@googlemail.com wrote:
So I can actually build filters from smaller building blocks in PD,
Yes, and it's great fun and very educational
I thought that this can be done in PD as a test exercise but not if I
want to create something that will actually work fast enough to be
usable as a synthesizer. I'm glad to have been wrong!
Well, sorry if this is misleading. We are on the borderline of right and wrong. This is where we hit Pd limitations at the lower level of granularity. yes you can build any filter, but not as efficient as hand coding and compiling.
This is the disparity between the wonders of Pd as a development tool and the reality of using its output.
Develop in Pd. For a vast majority of DSP development Pd with variable blocksize is a perfect tool if you could only work in dataflow THEN: hit "compile"
Are there any tutorials on this any where?
Only in my dreams I'm afraid. :)
It's what I wish for. Right now the choice is
arcane C++ knowledge - advantage builds for Max and Pd
platform targets, weird DSP algebra notation
supporting structure.
perfect, cons: does not exist in reality. :)
a.
Okay :( it was a nice dream though.
I have been thinking its probably worthwhile me downloading and
installing linux onto my macbook purely to download the CCRMA stack
of programs including PD and then working my way through Julius Smith
books and accompanying papers then hopefully I will have the right
versions/builds of everything to create physical models in PD and
will be working with the system there is most information about.
CHeers
Geoff
On 17 Mar 2009, at 16:13, Andy Farnell wrote:
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:00:32 +0000 Geoff geoffspuredata@googlemail.com wrote:
So I can actually build filters from smaller building blocks in PD,
Yes, and it's great fun and very educational
I thought that this can be done in PD as a test exercise but not if I want to create something that will actually work fast enough to be usable as a synthesizer. I'm glad to have been wrong!
Well, sorry if this is misleading. We are on the borderline of right and wrong. This is where we hit Pd limitations at the lower level of granularity. yes you can build any filter, but not as efficient as hand coding and compiling.
This is the disparity between the wonders of Pd as a development tool and the reality of using its output.
Develop in Pd. For a vast majority of DSP development Pd with variable blocksize is a perfect tool if you could only work in dataflow THEN: hit "compile"
Are there any tutorials on this any where?
Only in my dreams I'm afraid. :)
It's what I wish for. Right now the choice is
- Flext - wipes your ass a bit, but still requires some
arcane C++ knowledge - advantage builds for Max and Pd
- Faust - generates fast but opaque code, very flexible
platform targets, weird DSP algebra notation
- Hand craft in C - most flexible, tedious setup of
supporting structure.
- Andy's IDE (imaginary development environment) - pros:
perfect, cons: does not exist in reality. :)
a.
-- Use the source
And visit here for much goodness http://www.musicdsp.org/
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:24:20 +0000 Geoff geoffspuredata@googlemail.com wrote:
Okay :( it was a nice dream though.
Hallo, Geoff hat gesagt: // Geoff wrote:
So I can actually build filters from smaller building blocks in PD,
Yes, with the elementary filter objects you can directly input poles and zeros as Pd objects.
You should definitely read Miller Puckette's book, it's fantastic and has a very good introduction to Pd's filters and will teach you to use Pd like a pro. :)
Frank
i should probably avoid writing emails before bed, and my negative bias towards video-conferencing comes from a number of bad experiences and unproductive meetings. anyhow you are quite right to push this one, to converse without latency can be very productive (but equally unproductive too) - a good meeting requires a fair bit more preparation and planning than just the medium, regardless of mcluhans philosophy. incidentally i have enjoyed his musings in the past but i already find his arguments ambiguous enough with regard to psychology and technology, to retrofit his ideologies to todays baffling techno-communcications wasteland is a bit of a stretch ;)
ciao, dmotd
On Tuesday 17 March 2009 21:41:46 Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Yeah, in case I came across too strong, I think that IRC is very useful, and voice chat is too. We can have both running for this meeting, and people can choose where they participate. IRC is great for async communications, like asking specific questions. But I find it takes 10-20x longer to work through difficult issues thru text-only media like IRC, IM, email, etc. as compared to a voice conversation.
.hc
On Mar 16, 2009, at 7:32 PM, João Pais wrote:
Is this a one time thing, or might happen more times? I would say that at least voice connection would be productive. I haven't that much experience with video conferencing, but a medium where people can react at the same time they can think would be important. (although after too much time, even the fingers are faster than some heads)
How about voice connection for general talk + an irc chat for small, fast questions? We can also send a group foto with skype, so that everyone feels the warmth.
Marshall McLuhan would strongly disagree with you, as do I. The medium with which you communicate has a very strong impact on the conversation. That does not mean that it is the only influence. There are many things that lead to a bad meeting, and from my experience of having many meetings in person, on IRC, on IM, on phones, on voice chat, on video chat, and many different mixes above, I am a strong believer in high-bandwidth communication like voice.
Mistrust authority - promote decentralization. - the hacker ethic
I have also had a number of bad voice/video meetings and some decent
IRC meetings. I'd really like to experiment with the combination of
all of the above. I think that a voice conference together with IRC
could be a really useful combination. For example, its hard to know
when someone wants to speak next in a voice conference, in a physical
meeting , that kind of queuing is really well handled with eye
contact, and small hand gestures, which can happen while someone is
talking. I think that kind of thing could happen in IRC, like people
type in "I'd like to respond", so for big chunks of talking, that
would be handled over voice, then the little bits like figuring out
who will speak next could be handled in IRC.
For the book sprint, I think it would probably work differently. Like
a constant, async, low volume chatter on IRC, then when some people
want to work out an approach to a chapter or topic, they would switch
to voice chat and have a discussion.
.hc
On Mar 18, 2009, at 3:45 AM, dmotd wrote:
i should probably avoid writing emails before bed, and my negative
bias towards video-conferencing comes from a number of bad experiences and unproductive meetings. anyhow you are quite right to push this one, to converse without latency can be very productive (but equally
unproductive too) - a good meeting requires a fair bit more preparation and
planning than just the medium, regardless of mcluhans philosophy. incidentally i
have enjoyed his musings in the past but i already find his arguments
ambiguous enough with regard to psychology and technology, to retrofit his
ideologies to todays baffling techno-communcications wasteland is a bit of a
stretch ;)ciao, dmotd
On Tuesday 17 March 2009 21:41:46 Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Yeah, in case I came across too strong, I think that IRC is very useful, and voice chat is too. We can have both running for this meeting, and people can choose where they participate. IRC is great for async communications, like asking specific questions. But I find it takes 10-20x longer to work through difficult issues thru text- only media like IRC, IM, email, etc. as compared to a voice conversation.
.hc
On Mar 16, 2009, at 7:32 PM, João Pais wrote:
Is this a one time thing, or might happen more times? I would say that at least voice connection would be productive. I haven't that much experience with video conferencing, but a medium where people can react at the same time they can think would be important. (although after too much time, even the fingers are faster than some heads)
How about voice connection for general talk + an irc chat for small, fast questions? We can also send a group foto with skype, so that everyone feels the warmth.
Marshall McLuhan would strongly disagree with you, as do I. The medium with which you communicate has a very strong impact on the conversation. That does not mean that it is the only influence. There are many things that lead to a bad meeting, and from my experience of having many meetings in person, on IRC, on IM, on phones, on voice chat, on video chat, and many different mixes above, I am a strong believer in high-bandwidth communication like voice.
Mistrust authority - promote decentralization. - the hacker ethic
News is what people want to keep hidden and everything else is
publicity. - Bill Moyers
On Mon, 16 Mar 2009, Derek Holzer wrote:
My tendency is to keep everything as simple and low-tech as possible. Does video conferencing add anything substantial that IRC doesn't have already?
Seeing faces might be unconsciously motivational.
But it might not work so well for any ugly faces.
I could see some sense if there was some sort of presentation aspect, but these will be working sessions, i.e. very boring to look at .
This is an excellent occasion to distinguish yourself by your clothes...
Or learn the italian body-language to spice up your content.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec