Paul Sellis wrote:
IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote :
Does it jMax has no more been really developped since IRCAM wanted to
write jMax in Python ? As they made a Call for volunteers for a Python GUI for jMax in May 2003 : http://freesoftware.ircam.fr/breve.php3?id_breve=3&var_recherche=python Quite dead projects ?
well, do not mix the GUI with the core. while jMax is j because of its java-gui (or was it an early reference to jitter ? ack, that's sthg different), it does not mean that there call for volunteers means writing jMax in python. jMax as well as pd and max is written in C (or was it C++?)
implementing an alternative gui for jmax in python was (i think) only an attempt to make jMax fit better into an opensource project like agnula (they had license problems dueto java)
Well� finally, for a newbie that need your advises to controll videos
on stage (but not with any live effects) : PD + Gem is OK ? Or would you recommand to learn Max/MSP first (with the benefit of the documentation�), and then to switch to PD with a small adaptation time ?
i think i am a bad counselor, as i have never touched max/msp before i was deep into pd (and since then i only touched it once or twice); so i have a strong bias towards pd. with Gem it is even worse, since i am maintaining it.
other people on this list have probably a more open view.
mfg.asd.r IOhannes
On Mon, 14 Nov 2005, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
(or was it an early reference to jitter ? ack, that's sthg different),
The name "Jitter" was first publicized about 5 years after jMax started.
The only link between jMax and Jitter is that Jitter is a clone of
GridFlow.
it does not mean that there call for volunteers means writing jMax in python. jMax as well as pd and max is written in C (or was it C++?)
It was plain C.
implementing an alternative gui for jmax in python was (i think) only an attempt to make jMax fit better into an opensource project like agnula (they had license problems dueto java)
Right, and also the Java/Swing UI had too many bugs, several of which were in SUN's and IBM's implementations of Java/Swing.
Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
Jitter is a clone of GridFlow.
-Jitter is rumored to be 'inspired' by nato 0,55 of the (in)famous NN-aglomerate.
implementing an alternative gui for jmax in python was (i think) only an attempt to make jMax fit better into an opensource project like agnula (they had license problems dueto java)
Right, and also the Java/Swing UI had too many bugs, several of which were in SUN's and IBM's implementations of Java/Swing.
-I have always been puzzled by this insistence on using java for the GUI. Seems to me also being the main reason why people disbanded jMax. and moved either to PD or to Max/MSP.
Oh, and as far as I can tell, IRCAM has destroyed the mailing-list archives of the old jMax, which conveniently removes most traces of the existence of former 3rd-party developers.
-I don't know that's the reason, but its disappearance is strange, to say the least.
AvS
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .....................................................................
` |Schreck Ensemble . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +
` |# -laboratory for live electro-acoustic music- # |
| http://www.schreck.nl/ |
| http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/ |
` *===========================================================++
` |Compositions http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/compo.html |
` |Samples http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/samp.html |
` |Patches http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/pat.html |
` |Videos http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/video.html |
` |Scores http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/scores.html |
*===========================================================++
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .....................................................................
On Mon, 14 Nov 2005, Arie van Schutterhoef wrote:
Jitter is a clone of GridFlow.
-Jitter is rumored to be 'inspired' by nato 0,55 of the (in)famous NN-aglomerate.
According to the NN-Borgs, everything descended from NATO, so, whatever.
-I have always been puzzled by this insistence on using java for the GUI. Seems to me also being the main reason why people disbanded jMax. and moved either to PD or to Max/MSP.
I wouldn't think so, but I agree that it was one of the several major reasons.
Oh, and as far as I can tell, IRCAM has destroyed the mailing-list archives of the old jMax, which conveniently removes most traces of the existence of former 3rd-party developers.
-I don't know that's the reason, but its disappearance is strange, to say the least.
Well, in the last year of existence of the mailing-list, almost all of what was posted were complaints, flames, invitations to switch to Pd... not much more.
Possibly they prefer that part of history to be forgotten. That would explain why they didn't reply to your request of putting the archives back online.
Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
I wouldn't think so, but I agree that it was one of the several major reasons.
-Thus the end of jMax will be shrouded in mystery forever...
Possibly they prefer that part of history to be forgotten. That would explain why they didn't reply to your request of putting the archives back online.
-Or just sloppiness... At least chris/mamala had some back-up. For which I'm gratefull.
Whatever the reason(s) for jMax's demise, I still find it a fascination architecture with ambitious aims. Particularly in the mid-nineties, when they had it running on those SGI-servers, spread out on several cpu's, to get their much-needed flops.
AvS
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .....................................................................
` |Schreck Ensemble . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +
` |# -laboratory for live electro-acoustic music- # |
| http://www.schreck.nl/ |
| http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/ |
` *===========================================================++
` |Compositions http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/compo.html |
` |Samples http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/samp.html |
` |Patches http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/pat.html |
` |Videos http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/video.html |
` |Scores http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/scores.html |
*===========================================================++
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .....................................................................
Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Mon, 14 Nov 2005, Arie van Schutterhoef wrote:
Jitter is a clone of GridFlow.
-Jitter is rumored to be 'inspired' by nato 0,55 of the (in)famous NN-aglomerate.
According to the NN-Borgs, everything descended from NATO, so, whatever.
-I have always been puzzled by this insistence on using java for the GUI. Seems to me also being the main reason why people disbanded jMax. and moved either to PD or to Max/MSP.
I wouldn't think so, but I agree that it was one of the several major reasons.
I think a principle reason for the demise of jMax was IRCAM"s mis-management of the integration with the open source community. The SWING problem could have easily been resolved, but that effort was not well supported. Then there was the binary file format discussions where the IRCAM team decided to go against the opinion of the majority of the list contributors (... as far as I remember! correct me if I am wrong.)
Important decisions that affected the work of many open-source developers were made behind closed doors... and suggestions from the open-source community were too easily rejected.
I think the lesson was that to have an "open project" you need to be able to partly relinquish control of the code to the community... the developers of IRCAM were trying very hard to achieve a "perfect" architecture, which is to their credit ...... but their tight control alienated the open source developers ... which ultimately killed the project.
The whole jMAX story would make a very interesting historical analysis of what makes an open source project successful (or not)....
Etienne
Important decisions that affected the work of many open-source developers were made behind closed doors... and suggestions from the open-source community were too easily rejected.
I think the lesson was that to have an "open project" you need to be able to partly relinquish control of the code to the community... the developers of IRCAM were trying very hard to achieve a "perfect" architecture, which is to their credit ...... but their tight control alienated the open source developers ... which ultimately killed the project.
Its scary how sudden a good platform can vanish, hope Cycling74 can sustain a while. But what happens to MAX/msp users when they are out of business for some reasons? Of course the software doesn't stop suddenly (maybe in the DRM future this might be possible) but perhaps going to break with the next OS update and nobody out to fix it. Vendorlockin at best or as the NNbots used to say, corporate slaves :)
Cheers,
Malte
Malte Steiner media art + development -www.block4.com-
Hallo, Malte Steiner hat gesagt: // Malte Steiner wrote:
Its scary how sudden a good platform can vanish,
While scary it's not too unusual for closed source software, if the maker goes out of business. That's is one of *the* major reasons people (like me) only use open source/free software.
So the jMax case is even more scary: It shows, that even an open source software can be killed. However I'm sure, that if there hadn't been an alternative to jMax in the form of Pd, then jMax would have survived even IRCAM. Somehow Max (the very old one) survived in the form of Pd.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
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Arie van Schutterhoef -
etienne deleflie -
Frank Barknecht -
IOhannes m zmoelnig -
Malte Steiner -
Mathieu Bouchard