I personally gave 60€, and I'd really like the Gem developers to take it rather than the Bountysource people (who will start to do it from December 1st), whether the issues are actually fixed or not...

Le lun. 12 nov. 2018 à 04:16, Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com a écrit :

There was recently a bounty for GEM developing, it started picking up, everyone agreed it was a cool idea, I never used GEM in my life and I chipped in 15 US$... the thing is that then there was a discussion on wether to move to a different bounty system and the whole thing kinda died away.

So all I have to say is that I don't think there's an issue for Pd people, and my only issue is that I hope my pennies do not go to waste :)

Em dom, 11 de nov de 2018 às 21:10, Julian Brooks jbeezez@gmail.com escreveu:

...

Hi all,

Can I ask our community what's the general take on bounties?

I've discussed this informally with a couple of people on here (not on-list) and it's a polarising topic.

For me, free/open is doomed unless we accept that current/traditional methods of practise serve as a form of serfdom - or require a hefty dose of institutional/employer support (& often community participation - which is great obvs.).

It's not sustainable for free software to carry on reliant on free labour (IMO).

I've always liked something that Michel Bauwens (p2p foundation) once said (roughly paraphrased), that copyleft can only be implemented once the revolution is complete, and until then we require to get paid (somewhere along the line).

There are enough crappy things out there that are purely extractive, without replicating such political/economic hardships within my own favoured idealised/idealistic communities.

This though, isn't to say I don't get the argument that it's a dangerous line to cross, with projects becoming solely an economic arms race, highly centralised, with reimagined methodologies and rules for participation.

It's a tricky one.

All input and insight appreciated...

Best to all,

Julian _______________________________________________ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

---

Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

A small personal tale: some years ago I needed help to have an external
for the leapmotion - I was willing to pay for it, as someone would have to
dedicate time and work for it. In the end no one even replied to my calls,
so the thing had to rest. Some years later, it eventually worked when
Chikashi did the coding and now the code is there for anyone who wants to
use and abuse it. If at some point I need an upgrade, the cycle will
repeat again.

I don't understand why this issue should be polarising: if I/anyone need
something that doesn't exist and I can't do it myself, someone else has to
create it. It's not reasonable of me to expect that someone will sit down
for it and put aside her/his own priorities because of mine. Specially if
it's an experienced professional which will offer good solutions - and
that professional surely has a rent to pay, family, and might not want to
work for google or amazon. Specially in this community, without someone's support there would be no
Pd to discuss about - and also several of it's externals (correct me if
I'm wrong). There wouldn't even be a mailing list, as it's hosted by an
institution.

And if someone is against these politics, they can always refuse to use
the code that is generated from it?

Best,

Joao

Antoine & Alexandre - the GEM issue requires resolving quickly:
GEM-devs/ IOhannes, take the goddam cash!! (and redistribute it
accordingly:)

P.A. - Yes indeed, agreed re academia, though have to say, more and
more, it appears it's the 'top-end' of institutions, which provide such
space/time & >opportunities. Perhaps we can say that those working
within academia and/or large software-based businesses (it's seemingly
mainly larger orgs) have >already forged some equilibrium regarding
F/L/O production and contributions theein. Value may take many forms
(most often post-hard_cash), >particularly when it may be measured.

I guess my questioning regarding the usefulness of bounties is in the
prodding of the fine-line that exists for the self-employed/sole
trader/artists/code->dabbling precariat.

E.G. Pd's history is littered with those who've become overwhelmed with
both the demands of real life and the burgeoning Jones (addiction) of
maintaining >code (it was just a fun weekend hobby at first but then got
out of hand, STARTED TAKING OVER MY LIFE!!).

I do think bounties are useful but I'm trying to talk myself out of it...

Appreciate the responses,

J

part of the freedom of opensource developement is for many, that they can focus on what they are interested in. and there are no obligations. if money is involved that becomes more complex quite fast.

that is not to say, that opensource devs should not be paid, just that some may not want to accept any money.

On 12 Nov 2018, at 23:15, Johnny Mauser via Pd-list pd-list@lists.iem.at wrote:

I also want to support the use of the (Gem-) money! I made money with Gem so i thought it is time to give back (and support my own selfish future money making) with giving to Gem bounty. I very much am thinking like Julian, i want the money to be used by Gem devs instead of bounty source. Also i like the idea of software to be developed in way where everybody contributes as much as wanted and with individual possibilities. If that is with academia nuts where an institution is paying for developement to raise common practical knowledge, even better. But if that is not possible for some reason, i find it no harm that private money helps to climp a nessessary step. In our Case no supperiour institution takes over, just the little asskick for an awsome product needs to be made. Institutions can be friendly to open source products, but for sertain developments on proprietary platforms an extra push can be needed. The whole community would benifit from Osx 64bit Gem; more up to date users, more recognition, more interchangeability between platforms. But of course someone needs to do it! Someone who is not "starting from zero“ (in dev coding: like me). Ideal: someone where the bounty money fits into the buiseness plan. "1-2 weeks work for 1000$“ for the developement of the great Pd. But else: please, academian paid programming wizzards, please take a deep sigh, oil your fingers and code the nessessary black box. Take the money and make a big party, give it to your favourite doctor to attest your mental sickness for your absents of work, pay the wedding ring with „Pd“ engraving, or give me the money to massage you while writing the necessary lines of code, pay your normal live with it, or organize the next Pd convention.

no huhu, i got carried away. many words for a simple message: I love Pd (+Gem) and would love to continue to love a living creature.

Am Mo., 12. Nov. 2018, 19:34 hat João Pais <jmmmpais@gmail.com mailto:jmmmpais@gmail.com> geschrieben: A small personal tale: some years ago I needed help to have an external for the leapmotion - I was willing to pay for it, as someone would have to dedicate time and work for it. In the end no one even replied to my calls, so the thing had to rest. Some years later, it eventually worked when Chikashi did the coding and now the code is there for anyone who wants to use and abuse it. If at some point I need an upgrade, the cycle will repeat again.

I don't understand why this issue should be polarising: if I/anyone need something that doesn't exist and I can't do it myself, someone else has to create it. It's not reasonable of me to expect that someone will sit down for it and put aside her/his own priorities because of mine. Specially if it's an experienced professional which will offer good solutions - and that professional surely has a rent to pay, family, and might not want to work for google or amazon. Specially in this community, without someone's support there would be no Pd to discuss about - and also several of it's externals (correct me if I'm wrong). There wouldn't even be a mailing list, as it's hosted by an institution.

And if someone is against these politics, they can always refuse to use the code that is generated from it?

Best,

Joao

Antoine & Alexandre - the GEM issue requires resolving quickly: GEM-devs/ IOhannes, take the goddam cash!! (and redistribute it accordingly:)

P.A. - Yes indeed, agreed re academia, though have to say, more and more, it appears it's the 'top-end' of institutions, which provide such space/time & opportunities. Perhaps we can say that those working within academia and/or large software-based businesses (it's seemingly mainly larger orgs) have already forged some equilibrium regarding F/L/O production and contributions theein. Value may take many forms (most often post-hard_cash), particularly when it may be measured.

I guess my questioning regarding the usefulness of bounties is in the prodding of the fine-line that exists for the self-employed/sole trader/artists/code-dabbling precariat.

E.G. Pd's history is littered with those who've become overwhelmed with both the demands of real life and the burgeoning Jones (addiction) of maintaining code (it was just a fun weekend hobby at first but then got out of hand, STARTED TAKING OVER MY LIFE!!).

I do think bounties are useful but I'm trying to talk myself out of it...

Appreciate the responses,

J

---

Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list _______________________________________________ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

"

that is not to say, that opensource devs should not be paid, just that some may not want to accept any money.

they should be free not to, and give it to someone else, put it in a fund for other bounties or the next Pd con, ..."

Nice.

On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 09:59, João Pais jmmmpais@gmail.com wrote:

part of the freedom of opensource developement is for many, that they can

...

focus on what they are interested in. and there are no obligations. if money is involved that becomes more complex quite fast.

no one should be forced to do anything. If someone doesn't want to take a task, then just say no - of course, but if someone takes on a task and then changes its mind, that's a more complex situation; in the limit it could take on only part of the bounty for the part of the work done, or not at all.

...

that is not to say, that opensource devs should not be paid, just that some may not want to accept any money.

they should be free not to, and give it to someone else, put it in a fund for other bounties or the next Pd con, ... _______________________________________________ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

On 12.11.18 12:01, Julian Brooks wrote:

Antoine & Alexandre - the GEM issue requires resolving quickly: GEM-devs/ IOhannes, take the goddam cash!! (and redistribute it accordingly:)

can we just give it to Dan?

after all he was the only one writing code for exactly one of the targets of the bounty.

i have no idea, how to do that.

fgam IOhannes