<pre>What type of output are you looking for? Because beyond 6 digits, Pd's floating point numbers look funny, and 6 digits only covers 63 in binary. Do you want a character string? I don't know what kind of format you can work with. Pd could, alternatively, output 1's and 0's sequentially as a series of floats. at the moment i'm still working on that bit, the formula that Federico gave me outputs 1&0's to seperate outlets, which i think would drive a set of toggles quite well (though when i tried it pd crashed, i think because the number i input was too big, & the expr object i made ran out of digits [nbx] | [expr $f1>>0&1; $f1>>1&1; $f1>>2&1; $f1>>3&1; ... ] and so on... depending on how many bits you want to display ------------------------ i want to make a sequencer which generates rhythms according to the fibonacci sequence, there's been some talk of it on another forum, i've done some cut and paste and present the main details here (it looks pretty interesting) original thread is: http://www.dogsonacid.com/showthread.php?s=5ab52100bff93bb30ced93458a7e9529&threadid=409342&perpage=20&pagenumber=2 all the best adam ----------------------------------- i'm not sure if mean - "why do i think fibonacci sequences will yield rhythms that sound good?" or "how do i do it?". i guess i'll try to answer both... harmonics have such an integral role in so many things - i just can't believe that they don't come into play in rhythm sequences. surely - there is some sort of "rule" that determines which patterns "sit" well with each other, and which don't. clearly - simply placing drum hits in at random sounds like ass, whereas certain intervals seem to produce a pleasant interplay in the beat. i've always figured this must have something to do with the properties of the fibonacci sequence, since harmonic relationships are the deciding factor in so many appliactions dealing with interplay and relationships between things, from which atromic orbitals will react with one another - so which tones sound good when played together - to the proportion of objects in visual arts. i'm a bit hesitant to just spill the beans so soon - but what the hell, i've always thought that information/knowledge should be "open-source". so what the hell; basically the method goes like this: you always have some fundamental resolution - most of us use 1/8th notes or 1/16th notes. so the measure can be represented as a string of discrete bits, or a binary word, where each bit in the word represents a unique position in the measure. i'll use the housebeat with 1/8th note rez. for an example because it has lots of clean harmonics. note that the least significant digit is used to denote the first position - so we've got a big/little-endian switch going on... kick: 01010101 this binary word evaluates to 85 so if we take 85 to be our "base" (i.e. the first element in the series) - and continue in the fibonacci sequence, we get 85*(1+1) = 170 which, in binary is: 101010 ^ the open highhat pattern continuing on the next element is 21*(2+1) = 255 11111111 ^ commonly used for closed highhats basically - for breakbeats - i take 1 or 2 elements which i want to draw by hand. in the midi file above i used: 00100001 (kick) and 01000100 (snare) and added them together. then i took each row, and recursively added the current word to the previous word to produce the next word. the method is still a work in progress - i'm still experimenting with "clipping" - in this case meaning continuing the sums, and clipping off any bits higher than the "all 1s" word. (in this case > 255). alternatively, you could just increase the res i suppose to get some really complicated breaks with 16,32,or even 64 bit resolution. this doesn't have to be used just for durms - you could use it to generate the rhythm sequences for anything. the possibilities are quite mind-boggling. so there ya go dogs - if there's a number theorist in the house who'd like to collab with me in developing applications of this method - hit me up. ------------ least significant means "smallest numerical value". each digit in a binary word, read from right to left, indicates another power of 2. e.g: the rightmost position is bit*2^0, ("bit" referring to whether that digit either 1 or 0) the next is bit*2^1, the next is bit*2^2, and so on. so the first (i.e. rightmost) bit coincides with the first note/event in the measure. if you were to order the bits the other way around, you'd always roll over your word's maximum value in every operation. it's a minor point, but one that is definitely necessary. just think of it like this: the smaller "time values" of the events go with the smaller (or less significant) digits of the number. the fibonacci sequence goes like this, let "e" denote event, and i denote which event it is in the sequence. so e_i refeers to an arbitrary event; e_i+1 refers to the one that comes next, and e_i-1 refers to the one that came before it. so the fibonacci sequence is: e_i+1 = e_i+e_i-1 in the example i posted earlier, our "base" is 85. meaning we multiply each element of the fibonacci sequence by 85, so instead of 1,2,3,5,8 - you would get 85,170,255,425,680 = 85*(1,2,3,5,8). ------------ if you can find it - you should check out "the schillinger method of musical composition" - it uses wave analysis to generate melodies and rhythms. i actually have a copy of volume 1 i got many years ago - which is where i got started thinking this way. it's really interesting stuff - but a heavy read. to do what i want to do tho' using wave analysis, i'd have to break out my old differential equations notes & remember how to do a fourier analysis . like that's gonna happen ---------- Everyone has their own way (use single hits and sampling for me) but using the fibonacci sequence for making beats sounds interesting!!! Here's another way to describe, even though I don't use this sequence to make beats, just happen to know it: Bases:Fsub1=1, Fsub2=1 Recursive rule: FsubN=FsubN-1+FsubN-2, N greater than or equal to 3... so F3=F2+F1. And you can move up to any number in the sequence using this format. </pre>
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The Law of Pragnanz: "Psychological organization will always be as good as the prevailing conditions allow." I believe the wording comes from Leonard B. Meyer, 'Emotion and Meaning in Music' We perceive incoming stimuli as the simplest figure we can make, with the least number of independent elements to keep track of. So almost any 8-bit pattern tends to be perceived in groups of 2 or 4, with exceptions like: 11011011 For which the *simplest* figure is three 11's with 0's between them.
As soon as something changes: 11010011 Then "prevailing conditions" are different and the perception of the figure changes. Also, familiarity with a vocabulary changes "prevailing conditions," so that, e.g., "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz" is simpler than "jguakzbl".
I don't think people perceive things in terms of more complex patterns than what they're given, and a binary representation of a Fibonacci sequence is far more complex than two groups of 4 or four groups of 2 or whatever. Just about any on/off system forced into groups of 8 beats will sound orderly.
Not trying to rain on your parade, of course, have fun and experiment. Bartok did, though I think the beauty of his music comes primarily from his musical talent. If it stimulates your creativity, it's all worth it.
I wonder what it would sound like to divide the same time duration into 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, etc beats simultaneously. I'm guessing cacaphony.
Maybe Federico's idea could be modified:
[expr $f1>>$f2&1]
and increment $f2 indefinitely?
-Chuckk
On 6/27/06, adam armfield adamairmailed@yahoo.com wrote:
<pre>What type of output are you looking for? Because beyond 6 digits, Pd's floating point numbers look funny, and 6 digits only covers 63 in binary. Do you want a character string? I don't know what kind of format you can work with. Pd could, alternatively, output 1's and 0's sequentially as a series of floats. at the moment i'm still working on that bit, the formula that Federico gave me outputs 1&0's to seperate outlets, which i think would drive a set of toggles quite well (though when i tried it pd crashed, i think because the number i input was too big, & the expr object i made ran out of digits [nbx] | [expr $f1>>0&1; $f1>>1&1; $f1>>2&1; $f1>>3&1; ... ] and so on... depending on how many bits you want to display ------------------------ i want to make a sequencer which generates rhythms according to the fibonacci sequence, there's been some talk of it on another forum, i've done some cut and paste and present the main details here (it looks pretty interesting) original thread is: http://www.dogsonacid.com/showthread.php?s=5ab52100bff93bb30ced93458a7e9529&threadid=409342&perpage=20&pagenumber=2 all the best adam ----------------------------------- i'm not sure if mean - "why do i think fibonacci sequences will yield rhythms that sound good?" or "how do i do it?". i guess i'll try to answer both... harmonics have such an integral role in so many things - i just can't believe that they don't come into play in rhythm sequences. surely - there is some sort of "rule" that determines which patterns "sit" well with each other, and which don't. clearly - simply placing drum hits in at random sounds like ass, whereas certain intervals seem to produce a pleasant interplay in the beat. i've always figured this must have something to do with the properties of the fibonacci sequence, since harmonic relationships are the deciding factor in so many appliactions dealing with interplay and relationships between things, from which atromic orbitals will react with one another - so which tones sound good when played together - to the proportion of objects in visual arts. i'm a bit hesitant to just spill the beans so soon - but what the hell, i've always thought that information/knowledge should be "open-source". so what the hell; basically the method goes like this: you always have some fundamental resolution - most of us use 1/8th notes or 1/16th notes. so the measure can be represented as a string of discrete bits, or a binary word, where each bit in the word represents a unique position in the measure. i'll use the housebeat with 1/8th note rez. for an example because it has lots of clean harmonics. note that the least significant digit is used to denote the first position - so we've got a big/little-endian switch going on... kick: 01010101 this binary word evaluates to 85 so if we take 85 to be our "base" (i.e. the first element in the series) - and continue in the fibonacci sequence, we get 85*(1+1) = 170 which, in binary is: 101010 ^ the open highhat pattern continuing on the next element is 21*(2+1) = 255 11111111 ^ commonly used for closed highhats basically - for breakbeats - i take 1 or 2 elements which i want to draw by hand. in the midi file above i used: 00100001 (kick) and 01000100 (snare) and added them together. then i took each row, and recursively added the current word to the previous word to produce the next word. the method is still a work in progress - i'm still experimenting with "clipping" - in this case meaning continuing the sums, and clipping off any bits higher than the "all 1s" word. (in this case > 255). alternatively, you could just increase the res i suppose to get some really complicated breaks with 16,32,or even 64 bit resolution. this doesn't have to be used just for durms - you could use it to generate the rhythm sequences for anything. the possibilities are quite mind-boggling. so there ya go dogs - if there's a number theorist in the house who'd like to collab with me in developing applications of this method - hit me up. ------------ least significant means "smallest numerical value". each digit in a binary word, read from right to left, indicates another power of 2. e.g: the rightmost position is bit*2^0, ("bit" referring to whether that digit either 1 or 0) the next is bit*2^1, the next is bit*2^2, and so on. so the first (i.e. rightmost) bit coincides with the first note/event in the measure. if you were to order the bits the other way around, you'd always roll over your word's maximum value in every operation. it's a minor point, but one that is definitely necessary. just think of it like this: the smaller "time values" of the events go with the smaller (or less significant) digits of the number. the fibonacci sequence goes like this, let "e" denote event, and i denote which event it is in the sequence. so e_i refeers to an arbitrary event; e_i+1 refers to the one that comes next, and e_i-1 refers to the one that came before it. so the fibonacci sequence is: e_i+1 = e_i+e_i-1 in the example i posted earlier, our "base" is 85. meaning we multiply each element of the fibonacci sequence by 85, so instead of 1,2,3,5,8 - you would get 85,170,255,425,680 = 85*(1,2,3,5,8). ------------ if you can find it - you should check out "the schillinger method of musical composition" - it uses wave analysis to generate melodies and rhythms. i actually have a copy of volume 1 i got many years ago - which is where i got started thinking this way. it's really interesting stuff - but a heavy read. to do what i want to do tho' using wave analysis, i'd have to break out my old differential equations notes & remember how to do a fourier analysis . like that's gonna happen ---------- Everyone has their own way (use single hits and sampling for me) but using the fibonacci sequence for making beats sounds interesting!!! Here's another way to describe, even though I don't use this sequence to make beats, just happen to know it: Bases:Fsub1=1, Fsub2=1 Recursive rule: FsubN=FsubN-1+FsubN-2, N greater than or equal to 3... so F3=F2+F1. And you can move up to any number in the sequence using this format. </pre>
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On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
Maybe Federico's idea could be modified: [expr $f1>>$f2&1] and increment $f2 indefinitely?
Note that $f2 may or may not be mod 32 or mod 64 depending on which processor it's run on. Also, the >> operator is run in the int32 domain, so $f1 = 4e+09 will result in some negative value no matter what $f2 is.
If >> was really executed in float32, instead all outputs would be zero starting at some value of $f2 before $f2=127.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:16:05 +0100 (BST) adam armfield adamairmailed@yahoo.com wrote:
Hey Adam,
I saw Chucks reply on grouping and realised what you are experimenting with.
You might find this patch interesting or useful as a base to modify.
http://www.obiwannabe.co.uk/padawan12/TribalHaus.pd
It doesn't use fibonacci. It uses trigonometric (simple harmonic functions) to fill a table, one for each of 3 instruments, hi-hat, snare and kick.
You will probably have a lot more fun with harmonic than fibonacci for house beats, but it would a great starting point for development since you can quickly see the effects of changing a function parameter in the table display.
Using binary to store beats is a rather old trick. See the schematic of a Roland DR55 beat box from 1982 for an example. While it has a certain elegance I think it may be seducing you down a road that isn't entirely helpful. I would have another think about my choice of data-structure/representation if I were you.
The binary notation is merey an efficient way to store 2 valued sequences. You are replacing the digit exponent of the number base with a linear time relationship. In that sense the rlationship between the sequence and its integer representation is a power 2 relationship. Not that useful in making small scale rythmns but it may have applications in macrostructure.
You could experiment with substituting any functions in TribalHaus. If I remember correctly I used [cos] and [sin], so just replace those with some new function.
It's not well documented - I expect people to just tweak it and work it out but a quick summary...
The button rows select the integer harmonic of each sine contribution, which are alternately, 1, 3, 5, 7 and 2, 4, 6, 8. Each harmonic has a fader to set its level in the beat. The bottom buttons flip between the absolute magnitude or the bipolar signal. The top slider rotates the entire pattern left or right.
That's about it. It's additive synthesis to make beat patterns. Not surprisingly it works well to create extremely subtle shifting beats for house type music.
I would be interested to hear what sonic goodies you get from playing with other functions like fib though.
Have fun,
Andy
i want to make a sequencer which generates rhythms according to the fibonacci sequence, there's been some talk of it on another forum, i've done some cut and paste and present the main details here (it looks pretty interesting)
original thread is: http://www.dogsonacid.com/showthread.php?s=5ab52100bff93bb30ced93458a7e9529&...
all the best adam
i'm not sure if mean - "why do i think fibonacci sequences will yield rhythms that sound good?" or "how do i do it?". i guess i'll try to answer both...
harmonics have such an integral role in so many things
- i just can't believe that they don't come into play
in rhythm sequences. surely - there is some sort of "rule" that determines which patterns "sit" well with each other, and which don't. clearly - simply placing drum hits in at random sounds like ass, whereas certain intervals seem to produce a pleasant interplay in the beat. i've always figured this must have something to do with the properties of the fibonacci sequence, since harmonic relationships are the deciding factor in so many appliactions dealing with interplay and relationships between things, from which atromic orbitals will react with one another - so which tones sound good when played together - to the proportion of objects in visual arts.
i'm a bit hesitant to just spill the beans so soon - but what the hell, i've always thought that information/knowledge should be "open-source". so what the hell; basically the method goes like this:
you always have some fundamental resolution - most of us use 1/8th notes or 1/16th notes. so the measure can be represented as a string of discrete bits, or a binary word, where each bit in the word represents a unique position in the measure.
i'll use the housebeat with 1/8th note rez. for an example because it has lots of clean harmonics. note that the least significant digit is used to denote the first position - so we've got a big/little-endian switch going on...
kick: 01010101
this binary word evaluates to 85
so if we take 85 to be our "base" (i.e. the first element in the series) - and continue in the fibonacci sequence, we get 85*(1+1) = 170 which, in binary is:
101010
^ the open highhat pattern
continuing on the next element is 21*(2+1) = 255
11111111
^ commonly used for closed highhats
basically - for breakbeats - i take 1 or 2 elements which i want to draw by hand. in the midi file above i used:
00100001 (kick) and 01000100 (snare)
and added them together. then i took each row, and recursively added the current word to the previous word to produce the next word.
the method is still a work in progress - i'm still experimenting with "clipping" - in this case meaning continuing the sums, and clipping off any bits higher than the "all 1s" word. (in this case > 255). alternatively, you could just increase the res i suppose to get some really complicated breaks with 16,32,or even 64 bit resolution.
this doesn't have to be used just for durms - you could use it to generate the rhythm sequences for anything. the possibilities are quite mind-boggling.
so there ya go dogs - if there's a number theorist in the house who'd like to collab with me in developing applications of this method - hit me up.
least significant means "smallest numerical value". each digit in a binary word, read from right to left, indicates another power of 2.
e.g: the rightmost position is bit*2^0, ("bit" referring to whether that digit either 1 or 0) the next is bit*2^1, the next is bit*2^2, and so on.
so the first (i.e. rightmost) bit coincides with the first note/event in the measure. if you were to order the bits the other way around, you'd always roll over your word's maximum value in every operation. it's a minor point, but one that is definitely necessary. just think of it like this: the smaller "time values" of the events go with the smaller (or less significant) digits of the number.
the fibonacci sequence goes like this, let "e" denote event, and i denote which event it is in the sequence. so e_i refeers to an arbitrary event; e_i+1 refers to the one that comes next, and e_i-1 refers to the one that came before it.
so the fibonacci sequence is:
e_i+1 = e_i+e_i-1
in the example i posted earlier, our "base" is 85. meaning we multiply each element of the fibonacci sequence by 85, so instead of 1,2,3,5,8 - you would get 85,170,255,425,680 = 85*(1,2,3,5,8).
if you can find it - you should check out "the schillinger method of musical composition" - it uses wave analysis to generate melodies and rhythms. i actually have a copy of volume 1 i got many years ago
- which is where i got started thinking this way. it's
really interesting stuff - but a heavy read.
to do what i want to do tho' using wave analysis, i'd have to break out my old differential equations notes & remember how to do a fourier analysis . like that's gonna happen
Everyone has their own way (use single hits and sampling for me) but using the fibonacci sequence for making beats sounds interesting!!! Here's another way to describe, even though I don't use this sequence to make beats, just happen to know it:
Bases:Fsub1=1, Fsub2=1 Recursive rule: FsubN=FsubN-1+FsubN-2, N greater than or equal to 3... so F3=F2+F1. And you can move up to any number in the sequence using this format.
</pre>
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