I've been assigned to write a feature on Pd for an upcoming issue of Electronic Musician. This will be mainly introductory -- letting people know that Pd exists, what it can do, what it's like to work with it, etc.
The feature will be much stronger if I have some input from folks in the Pd user community. If you have 30 seconds, I'd love to get some feedback or commentary on the following points:
recordings you'd like others to know about?
suited for? What are they? Are there limitations you're hoping will be addressed in future updates?
extending it?
Thanks in advance for any and all responses. I can't promise to quote you directly in the article, but your feedback will be incredibly useful.
--Jim Aikin
On Thursday, February 20, 2003, at 09:20 PM, Jim Aikin wrote:
I've been assigned to write a feature on Pd for an upcoming issue of Electronic Musician. This will be mainly introductory -- letting people know that Pd exists, what it can do, what it's like to work with it, etc.
This seems great concerning the last posts on the usability issue. If a magazine like Electronic Musician is interested in writing about PD then this means that surely this: "... its definitely for the tech savvy, i'm not sure it will ever not be. it is a media programming language afterall." = F and this: "i'm sure as time progresses we will see things built with pd meant to be used by the less tech savvy." =T People want to have more control over machines so that software and code and merging together and creating a diffuse frontier between them. That's why the visual programming environment paradigm has succeeded in other areas with stuff like virtools. I've even heard about stuff like this to use like translators for things like .Net. so basically maybe as computer users grow everyday it will become more common to have people dealing with now considered "more advanced" knowledge. Just sharing some thoughts Ivan
Hello Jim,
I'm a fairly new/inexperienced pd user, and definitely not a programmer, but I've been doing great with pd. Here are my answers to your questions:
1)I've used it to study some basic aspects of sound synthesis, to make some interesting sounds I might use in future pieces, and recently in a piece for snare drum and live electronics. Regarding the recent usability thread, I must say I adapted very quickly to the pd environment. I don't think anyone wanting to use it for what it does, not only as a collection of someone else's patches, will be scared of its interface (which isn't to say it can't improve).
2)As far as I know, pd is not the best tool for soundfile editing... but that wasn't what I was looking for at all.
3)My favorite resources are this list and pd.org. I find all the links I want from these two starting points.
There are two things everybody here knows but that I always stress when talking about pd to people who don't know it yet, and they are among the strongest points I see in this software: it's free, hence constantly getting better by everyone's contributions, and it will run on virtually any machine. I think these are the reasons I won't stop using pd even if I get a Titanium 1GHz with Max on it.
Cheers, Guilherme
Hi Jim,
I'm quite new to pd (4 months or so) and have been raving about it to everyone I know since. It does everything I wanted it to do and has enabled me to produce a music performance tool that I didn't dream I'd be able to produce without purchasing a *very* expensive dedicated DSP card... regarding Guilherme's response:-
Regarding the recent usability thread, I must say I adapted very quickly to the pd environment.
I would agree entirely; I got some nice programs going the day after I downloaded it, though I do come from a 'soft' programming environment (ie I don't delve inside the works of computers at all, but use programming languages regularly).
- What do you use Pd for? Have you used it in any performances or
recordings you'd like others to know about?
Live loop-sampling. I have done 1 performance so far, and it went really well. I was looking for looping devices for years (www.loopers-delight.com) and none of them did what I wanted. so I wrote my own with midi triggers and multichannel......
- Are there musical tasks that you feel Pd is *not* especially well
suited for? What are they? Are there limitations you're hoping will be addressed in future updates?
Probably not good if you're looking to rewrite a program like Logic. better to go and buy it. also sound file editing is not the best due to it's limited built-in graphical environment (though there are ways...) Limitations? shortcomings? I would say documentation mayB, so this is not a major issue with pd itself. which leads me to:-
- What are your favorite online resources for learning Pd and/or
extending it?
If I'm really stuck I ask the mailing list (thanks to all those helpers!) though I usually learn by trying and reading. as for extending it, well I don't do much of that...
so yes, maybe it's better not to quote me (apart from the fact I may have shpoken in error, I have thish very annoying lishp...)
hope itsh shum help
Matt
Hallo, Jim Aikin hat gesagt: // Jim Aikin wrote:
The feature will be much stronger if I have some input from folks in the Pd user community. If you have 30 seconds, I'd love to get some feedback or commentary on the following points:
Okay, 30 seconds:
- What do you use Pd for? Have you used it in any performances or
recordings you'd like others to know about?
I'm not there yet, give me some more months.
- Are there musical tasks that you feel Pd is *not* especially well
suited for? What are they? Are there limitations you're hoping will be addressed in future updates?
2a) Pd's not so well in non-realtime composition. 2b) Limitations: GUI sometimes feels sluggish, and is hard to extend. Preset-saving. I couldn't get support for 2 soundcards at once to work for DJ'ing.
- What are your favorite online resources for learning Pd and/or
extending it?
Above all: these lists. http://pure-data.sourceforge.net. Use the source, Luke. www.citeseer.com, musicdsp.org, linux-sound.org
Thanks in advance for any and all responses. I can't promise to quote you directly in the article, but your feedback will be incredibly useful.
Stop. 56 seconds. I didn't meet the dead line. I wish you better luck with that ;)
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
Hi Jim,
I'm the owner of pure-data.org. If you mention the pure-data.org web site in your article, please make note of the fact that Miller doesn't have anything to do with it; that it is a completely independent web site. Also, you might mention that the mailing list is really a better way to be in touch with the PD user community, and the pure-data.sourceforge.net CVS repository is the best way to stay up to date with 3rd party externals. That as opposed to the pure-data.org "downloads" section, which is frequently out of date.
A lot of users see pure-data.org and have some kind of problem with it, and then they go yell at miller or some other developer, and it's all due to this misguided notion that somehow pure-data.org is the developers promoting their own work, while in actuality it is just another user community resource. Pure-data.org could use a lot of work, as well, and my inability to devote serious time to it should not be interpreted as laziness on the part of the real pd developers.
I use Pd and a laptop running linux for performances. I also could probably write a simple C compiler and UNIX kernel from scratch, given enough time. If you're not comfortable with CVS, C/C++ compilers, bleeding edge device drivers, serious system performance tuning, advanced DSP theory, and a bunch of other technical gunk, Pd is not for you. Perhaps, start with Reaktor or some other commercial product for which you can get professional support when you run into problems.
If you do have the computer chops to run Pd, it will never ever disappoint you, and you will find its user community *just right*.
The only other piece of software people seem to use other than Pd is a sequencer, just because Pd's graphics for sequencers are clunky and slow to mouse around with.
I have mixed feelings about an EM article on PD. On the one hand, the more people who use it successfully, the better. On the other hand, I don't like the idea of the mailing list clogging up with people who can barely run cakewalk complaining that their free software doesn't work. Food for thought for you, perhaps.
On Thu, 2003-02-20 at 16:20, Jim Aikin wrote:
I've been assigned to write a feature on Pd for an upcoming issue of Electronic Musician. [...]
I use Pd and a laptop running linux for performances.
that's great.
I also could probably write a simple C compiler and UNIX kernel from scratch, given enough time.
that's also really great, and impressive, but also completely irrelevant to what Jim was asking.
If you're not comfortable with CVS, C/C++ compilers, bleeding edge device drivers, serious system performance tuning, advanced DSP theory, and a bunch of other technical gunk, Pd is not for you.
OK. this is completely and totally erroneous information. first of all pd runs on other platforms that aren't linux, and that do not require any compilation. also, CVS is pretty much for those interested in developing pd, most users will be perfectly fine with any of the binaries available from Miller's site. the serious 'performance tuning' is hardly specific to pd and varies by platform. maybe you are only referring to obscure and arcane information as it relates to linux? if by advanced DSP, you mean know what an oscillator does and generally what the various flavors of filters do, then yes that knowledge will be helpful, but is by no means a requirement. Pd allows for experimentation and fosters learning about these topics much the same way old analog modular synths did. btw, can you build one of those? that could possibly fall under 'a bunch of other technical junk'...
Pd is for who ever wants it.
Perhaps, start with Reaktor or some other commercial product for which you can get professional support when you run into problems.
this list is one of the better support forums out there.
If you do have the computer chops to run Pd, it will never ever disappoint you, and you will find its user community *just right*.
maybe we should make a test so only people with the proper, accepted skills can actually use it.
I have mixed feelings about an EM article on PD. On the one hand, the more people who use it successfully, the better. On the other hand, I don't like the idea of the mailing list clogging up with people who can barely run cakewalk complaining that their free software doesn't work.
that's a fair enough opinion, but i would vote to remove people with condescending attitudes toward beginning Pd users before i would block newbies from joining. if you are indeed the expert you claim, then what harm does it do to share a bit of knowledge now and then? think of it as a noble calling, and not a waste of your precious time.
Food for thought for you, perhaps.
perhaps this is some food for you? leftovers? mmmm tasty!
cgc
i think it's important that people get involved regardless of how
many clueless newbies get on board. if there were never newbies, then there would be no advanced users, and more importantly there would be no resources. this is kind of a similar thing as to when people complain about their favorite small unknown band making it big. if they make it big, it means that they'll more likely continue to make music that you can get access to. if they don't make it, then it's likely you'll never hear another record from then again... and if pd doesn't "make it," it'll never improve and it'll become old dusty software that very few people use.
scott
On 21 Feb 2003, jfm3 wrote:
Hi Jim,
I'm the owner of pure-data.org. If you mention the pure-data.org web site in your article, please make note of the fact that Miller doesn't have anything to do with it; that it is a completely independent web site. Also, you might mention that the mailing list is really a better way to be in touch with the PD user community, and the pure-data.sourceforge.net CVS repository is the best way to stay up to date with 3rd party externals. That as opposed to the pure-data.org "downloads" section, which is frequently out of date.
A lot of users see pure-data.org and have some kind of problem with it, and then they go yell at miller or some other developer, and it's all due to this misguided notion that somehow pure-data.org is the developers promoting their own work, while in actuality it is just another user community resource. Pure-data.org could use a lot of work, as well, and my inability to devote serious time to it should not be interpreted as laziness on the part of the real pd developers.
I use Pd and a laptop running linux for performances. I also could probably write a simple C compiler and UNIX kernel from scratch, given enough time. If you're not comfortable with CVS, C/C++ compilers, bleeding edge device drivers, serious system performance tuning, advanced DSP theory, and a bunch of other technical gunk, Pd is not for you. Perhaps, start with Reaktor or some other commercial product for which you can get professional support when you run into problems.
If you do have the computer chops to run Pd, it will never ever disappoint you, and you will find its user community *just right*.
The only other piece of software people seem to use other than Pd is a sequencer, just because Pd's graphics for sequencers are clunky and slow to mouse around with.
I have mixed feelings about an EM article on PD. On the one hand, the more people who use it successfully, the better. On the other hand, I don't like the idea of the mailing list clogging up with people who can barely run cakewalk complaining that their free software doesn't work. Food for thought for you, perhaps.
On Thu, 2003-02-20 at 16:20, Jim Aikin wrote:
I've been assigned to write a feature on Pd for an upcoming issue of Electronic Musician. [...]
-- (jfm3 2838 BCBA 93BA 3058 ED95 A42C 37DB 66D1 B43C 9FD0)
PD-list mailing list PD-list@iem.kug.ac.at http://iem.kug.ac.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
"640K ought to be enough for anybody." -- Bill Gates, 1981
i concur, bring the nubies on! ;) though it would really make life on the list here much much nicer in the weeks after the magazine comes out of its made clear that users should be prepared to dig themselve into some serious self motivated learning, this ain't fruityloops :)
-josh
I really hate to say this, because I hate it when the super 31337
Linux hackers shoot down the newbies, but newbies can be a boon. Have you ever subscribed to the Max mailing list? I was on for a week and had to leave. There were so many RTFM questions I couldn't process signal from noise...
I know, I know, so unconstructive. Bring on the newbies...
At 05:04 PM 21/02/2003 -0800, J. Scott Hildebrand wrote:
i think it's important that people get involved regardless of how
many clueless newbies get on board. if there were never newbies, then there would be no advanced users, and more importantly there would be no resources. this is kind of a similar thing as to when people complain about their favorite small unknown band making it big. if they make it big, it means that they'll more likely continue to make music that you can get access to. if they don't make it, then it's likely you'll never hear another record from then again... and if pd doesn't "make it," it'll never improve and it'll become old dusty software that very few people use.
scott
. . David McCallum . Music wants to be free . http://mentalfloss.ca/sintheta/ .
Hallo, David McCallum hat gesagt: // David McCallum wrote:
Have you ever subscribed to the Max mailing list? I was on for a week and had to leave. There were so many RTFM questions I couldn't process signal from noise...
You beat me mentioning the max-msp list, as I was about to, but reading it for about 3 weeks now, I cannot say, that it is such a bad list as you described it. In fact I find it is very balanced in its topics ranging from obvious newbie questions to some more higher level stuff. I would expect pd-list to be more like max-msp, if Pd was as popular as Max, but I could live with that. Pd and Max both are for the more experienced audio software user and developer and they are not Cubase or Reaktor.
The only thing I didn't like on max-msp is the attitude of some (only some) posts, that have a tone like: "I paid for it, so fix my problem immediatly, I don't need to say thank you." But this is something, that is increasing in linux-lists as well with the advent of commercial linux software and distributions.
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:04:41 -0800 (PST) "J. Scott Hildebrand" jshildebrand@ucdavis.edu wrote:
if they don't make it, then it's likely you'll never hear another record from then again... and if pd doesn't "make it," it'll never improve and it'll become old dusty software that very few people use.
Sorry Scott, but this statement is completely ridiculous. Pd itself is a direct contradictory example to what you're saying.
Regards,
Chris. _________________________________ chris@mccormick.cx http://www.mccormick.cx http://www.sciencegirlrecords.com
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, J. Scott Hildebrand wrote:
another record from then again... and if pd doesn't "make it," it'll never improve and it'll become old dusty software that very few people use.
On 21 Feb 2003, jfm3 wrote:
more people who use it successfully, the better. On the other hand, I don't like the idea of the mailing list clogging up with people who can barely run cakewalk complaining that their free software doesn't work. Food for thought for you, perhaps.
The hierarchy which emerges in a user community, centered around a lively, healthy free software project handles incoming newbies naturally. Without them, there is no community. More than 3 years ago, when I first started to grow the balls to post to people like Miller, Geiger, et al, the answers came swiftly, unprepossesingly, even from the pumpkin holder. Now, I answer on-list and off-list to -any- question posed that I think it is my place to answer as an advanced user, (though not as a developer, of course) even when the question is: 'can I, like, use PD to do stuff, like, what Cakewalk does like?' It is because of -their- (developers) patience that someone like me (a piano player with no previous interest whatsoever in computing, let alone nux-based development), gets their 'chops'. In turn, I learn to exercise the same amount of patience.
Do you not agree that this is a good thing?
d
ecdc.dyndns.org/dc --)+
I read:
more people who use it successfully, the better. On the other hand, I don't like the idea of the mailing list clogging up with people who can barely run cakewalk complaining that their free software doesn't work.
oh come on, think of it though we _never_ ever where newbies, simply because we thought about writing sth. similar up in 1991, but then found miller already did it >;-> that does not mean that some more newbie type of questions would destroy our culture.
Furthermore, questions of as of yet clueless users give people like me the unique opportunity to answer the stupid questions instead of asking them.
And then we maybe get a FAQ that people actually know about and that explains what 'local' means before it tells nonprogramming types how he/she can create a local array (and explains the term array maybe) in pd.
just my 0.2EUR
regards,
x
accomplish anything I could possible want. I do mainly delay-loop creations and I have interdependent parameters and audio feeds of the loops. That's just not something I could conceive of doing in other software or hardware. I also use it as a guitar effects rack (why buy pedals when I can code my own?). I do everything in Pd now. If you can conceive of it, you can create it.
I have live recordings of my Pd music at
http://mentalfloss.ca/sintheta and run a fortnightly experimental music night in Kingston, Ontario (Canada) where I use Pd each and every show http://mentalfloss.ca/sintheta/exp.
No intricate sequencing or Ableton Live type creations. I mean, you *could* if you wanted to put a lot of work into it; it's not impossible. Pd's kind of like the software equivalent of a DIY hardware system.
the wikki page on http://pd.iem.at
At 01:20 PM 20/02/2003 -0800, Jim Aikin wrote:
- What do you use Pd for? Have you used it in any performances or
recordings you'd like others to know about?
- Are there musical tasks that you feel Pd is *not* especially well
suited for? What are they? Are there limitations you're hoping will be addressed in future updates?
- What are your favorite online resources for learning Pd and/or
extending it?
. . David McCallum . Music wants to be free . http://mentalfloss.ca/sintheta/ .