Hi Raul,
very, very interesting application,
a nice example of communication between processing and
Pd worlds. I think I'll learn a lot from your patch
about Pd<->Processing communication
(and processing programming too), so
first of all thanks for sharing it!
I've few questions/comments:
- GUI is too large for my poor 15 inches monitor :-(
- How did you exported the processing interface
in a single executable?
3) The strategy of providing a full Pd Vanilla distribution
(plus the necessary libraries - OSC,..) plus an
embedded processing executable (and jar clesses)
is interesting. Also interesting hiding the Pd with -nogui
option, the feeling is exactly to have a standalone
instrument...
Cheers,
AlbertoZ
http://puredata.org/Members/AlbertoZ http://alberto.zin.googlepages.com/
Hi Alberto!
2008/6/4 alberto.zin@poste.it alberto.zin@poste.it:
Hi Raul,
very, very interesting application, a nice example of communication between processing and Pd worlds. I think I'll learn a lot from your patch about Pd<->Processing communication (and processing programming too), so first of all thanks for sharing it!
Thanks a lot!
I've few questions/comments:
- GUI is too large for my poor 15 inches monitor :-(
I'm sorry about that. Somebody has tell me the same problem. I will make another smaller GUI version. Thanks for the feedback!
- How did you exported the processing interface
in a single executable?
Processing allows to export your code as a java applet for web or as an executable application...it's easy!
- The strategy of providing a full Pd Vanilla distribution
(plus the necessary libraries - OSC,..) plus an embedded processing executable (and jar clesses) is interesting. Also interesting hiding the Pd with -nogui option, the feeling is exactly to have a standalone instrument...
I find Pd a great tool for this kind of small standalone application like that. I would like to know alternative usages of Pd in this way from other Pd users and in other OS (mac, linux)....Anybody has something to tell?
Saludos!
I think this link is relevant.
Cheers list!
http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/spore/853810p1.html
~Kyle
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 3:58 AM, raul diaz raul.lete@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Alberto!
2008/6/4 alberto.zin@poste.it alberto.zin@poste.it:
Hi Raul,
very, very interesting application, a nice example of communication between processing and Pd worlds. I think I'll learn a lot from your patch about Pd<->Processing communication (and processing programming too), so first of all thanks for sharing it!
Thanks a lot!
I've few questions/comments:
- GUI is too large for my poor 15 inches monitor :-(
I'm sorry about that. Somebody has tell me the same problem. I will make another smaller GUI version. Thanks for the feedback!
- How did you exported the processing interface
in a single executable?
Processing allows to export your code as a java applet for web or as an executable application...it's easy!
- The strategy of providing a full Pd Vanilla distribution
(plus the necessary libraries - OSC,..) plus an embedded processing executable (and jar clesses) is interesting. Also interesting hiding the Pd with -nogui option, the feeling is exactly to have a standalone instrument...
I find Pd a great tool for this kind of small standalone application like that. I would like to know alternative usages of Pd in this way from other Pd users and in other OS (mac, linux)....Anybody has something to tell?
Saludos!
-- Raul Diaz Poblete
http://creaciodigital.upf.edu/~i50874/http://creaciodigital.upf.edu/%7Ei50874/
raul.lete@gmail.com Barcelona [Spain]
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Hallo, Kyle Klipowicz hat gesagt: // Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
I think this link is relevant.
Cheers list!
Indeed this link is relevant, though not to TR909 Emulation3. ;)
Anyway, there are some other articles about this talk on the web, including a short video: http://www.youtube.com/v/GHCRzAcGS0Y (anyone has a longer one?) and these short notes: http://www.gamingsteve.com/archives/2008/02/gdc08-liveblogging-procedural-mu...
This one also has a bigger screnshot: http://jeaninecowen.berkleemusicblogs.com/2008/02/24/gdc-day-three-the-fun-b...
Interesting observation: Even this little Pd patch is written in what I'd call a "Max/MSP style": notice the lack of [trigger]s, the graphical bangs inserted in the middle of cords, use of [coll] and [counter] etc. I hope Spore doesn't hit any execution order bugs. ;)
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
Hallo, Frank Barknecht hat gesagt: // Frank Barknecht wrote:
Anyway, there are some other articles about this talk on the web, including a short video: http://www.youtube.com/v/GHCRzAcGS0Y (anyone has a longer one?)
Another URL: http://www.mat.ucsb.edu/~amcleran/past.html Seems the whole presentation is for sale here: https://store.cmpgame.com/product.php?id=2646
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
Maybe EA had better hire a genuine pro from the pd-list (wink wink).
I hope that this thread takes off, since I'm curious what others think on the topic. Spore could be the PR break that Pd has been waiting for!
~Kyle
On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 4:54 AM, Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org wrote:
Hallo, Kyle Klipowicz hat gesagt: // Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
I think this link is relevant.
Cheers list!
Indeed this link is relevant, though not to TR909 Emulation3. ;)
Anyway, there are some other articles about this talk on the web, including a short video: http://www.youtube.com/v/GHCRzAcGS0Y (anyone has a longer one?) and these short notes:
http://www.gamingsteve.com/archives/2008/02/gdc08-liveblogging-procedural-mu...
This one also has a bigger screnshot:
http://jeaninecowen.berkleemusicblogs.com/2008/02/24/gdc-day-three-the-fun-b...
Interesting observation: Even this little Pd patch is written in what I'd call a "Max/MSP style": notice the lack of [trigger]s, the graphical bangs inserted in the middle of cords, use of [coll] and [counter] etc. I hope Spore doesn't hit any execution order bugs. ;)
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
Maybe EA had better hire a genuine pro from the pd-list (wink wink).
I hope that this thread takes off, since I'm curious what others think on the topic. Spore could be the PR break that Pd has been waiting for!
I also think ea should hire pd pros. they probably alrady get job applications... pd and procedural audio generation will also get a push from the book that andy is working on. something like the EAPd should also exist for non-EA games, there already was a discussion about this...
marius.
Hallo, marius schebella hat gesagt: // marius schebella wrote:
Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
Maybe EA had better hire a genuine pro from the pd-list (wink wink).
I hope that this thread takes off, since I'm curious what others think on the topic. Spore could be the PR break that Pd has been waiting for!
I also think ea should hire pd pros. they probably alrady get job applications... pd and procedural audio generation will also get a push from the book that andy is working on. something like the EAPd should also exist for non-EA games, there already was a discussion about this...
Note that I didn't intend to run down the work of the Spore Pd team: I think they did an exceptional work. I'm especially impressed by the counterpoint abstraction one of the two was talking about. Automatic counterpoint is a cool idea. Anyone else did something like it? Would be a great addition to the RTC-lib.
I think, the number of capable Max/MSP users is still higher than the number of Pd users, and the Spore team clearly showed that they know their way around and can adapt to Pd's peculiarities. It will be interesting to see if there will be more Pd jobs in the gaming industry in the future. (Gaming CEOs take note: I'd be interested!) The biggest problem probably is, what Andy is fighting for: Audio in games is not regarded to be on the same level of importance as graphics. Generally audio/music is created *after* the rest of the game is almost finished. Quite often the music side even is completly outsourced. Game designers and audio people working together as closely as they did with Spore is a rarity (at least outside of the world of music games like "Rock Band").
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
my first post - hello list...
Yeah, this is exactly how I got started with PD because of this spore's generative music article. Anyway, after a month of learning PD initially knowing nothing about coding & stuff, here's a spore inspired PD music that I like to share;
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=StV-NzmTZ1A http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfwxe4qLInA
EA may not be able to hire me as I'm not a genuine PD pro, but I had a lot of fun making this patches & will continue to do so. :) Also thanks to Andy Farnell with his very informative obiwannabe.com & for rescuing my patch, lots of information there if you're into game audio. A very special thanks to Marius Schebella for his guidance & to Hans Steiner with the referral.
Hopefully would be able to contribute with this list in the future once I get more knowledge. This is a great list btw... keep it up.
-ronaldO:
----- Original Message ----- From: Kyle Klipowicz kyleklip@gmail.com Date: Monday, June 9, 2008 12:26 am Subject: Re: [PD] Spore [was: TR909 emulation] To: pd-list@iem.at
Maybe EA had better hire a genuine pro from the pd-list (wink wink).
I hope that this thread takes off, since I'm curious what others think on the topic. Spore could be the PR break that Pd has been waiting for!
~Kyle
On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 4:54 AM, Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org wrote:
Hallo, Kyle Klipowicz hat gesagt: // Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
I think this link is relevant.
Cheers list!
Indeed this link is relevant, though not to TR909 Emulation3. ;)
Anyway, there are some other articles about this talk on the web, including a short video: http://www.youtube.com/v/GHCRzAcGS0Y
(anyone> has a longer one?) and these short notes:
http://www.gamingsteve.com/archives/2008/02/gdc08-liveblogging-
procedural-music-in-spore.php
This one also has a bigger screnshot:
http://jeaninecowen.berkleemusicblogs.com/2008/02/24/gdc-day-
three-the-fun-begins/
Interesting observation: Even this little Pd patch is written in
what> I'd call a "Max/MSP style": notice the lack of [trigger]s, the
graphical bangs inserted in the middle of cords, use of [coll] and [counter] etc. I hope Spore doesn't hit any execution order bugs. ;)
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _
______footils.org__>
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
--
http://perhapsidid.wordpress.com http://myspace.com/kyleklipowicz
ULL - one of the Aesir known for his beauty and skill with bow and skis
my first post - hello list...
Yeah, this is exactly how I got started with PD because of this spore's generative music article. Anyway, after a month of learning PD initially knowing nothing about coding & stuff, here's a spore inspired PD music that I like to share;
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=StV-NzmTZ1A http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfwxe4qLInA
EA may not be able to hire me as I'm not a genuine PD pro, but I had a lot of fun making this patches & will continue to do so. :) Also thanks to Andy Farnell with his very informative obiwannabe.com & for rescuing my patch, lots of information there if you're into game audio. A very special thanks to Marius Schebella for his guidance & to Hans Steiner with the referral.
Hopefully would be able to contribute with this list in the future once I get more knowledge. This is a great list btw... keep it up.
-ronaldO:
----- Original Message ----- From: Kyle Klipowicz kyleklip@gmail.com Date: Monday, June 9, 2008 12:26 am Subject: Re: [PD] Spore [was: TR909 emulation] To: pd-list@iem.at
Maybe EA had better hire a genuine pro from the pd-list (wink wink).
I hope that this thread takes off, since I'm curious what others think on the topic. Spore could be the PR break that Pd has been waiting for!
~Kyle
On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 4:54 AM, Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org wrote:
Hallo, Kyle Klipowicz hat gesagt: // Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
I think this link is relevant.
Cheers list!
Indeed this link is relevant, though not to TR909 Emulation3. ;)
Anyway, there are some other articles about this talk on the web, including a short video: http://www.youtube.com/v/GHCRzAcGS0Y
(anyone> has a longer one?) and these short notes:
http://www.gamingsteve.com/archives/2008/02/gdc08-liveblogging-
procedural-music-in-spore.php
This one also has a bigger screnshot:
http://jeaninecowen.berkleemusicblogs.com/2008/02/24/gdc-day-
three-the-fun-begins/
Interesting observation: Even this little Pd patch is written in
what> I'd call a "Max/MSP style": notice the lack of [trigger]s, the
graphical bangs inserted in the middle of cords, use of [coll] and [counter] etc. I hope Spore doesn't hit any execution order bugs. ;)
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _
______footils.org__>
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
--
http://perhapsidid.wordpress.com http://myspace.com/kyleklipowicz
ULL - one of the Aesir known for his beauty and skill with bow and skis
On Monday 09 June 2008 06:23:04 Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
Maybe EA had better hire a genuine pro from the pd-list (wink wink).
I hope that this thread takes off, since I'm curious what others think on the topic. Spore could be the PR break that Pd has been waiting for!
One thing to note though is that they confessed having only used Pd to trigger midi events and play samples. There is no "actual sound synthesis" done by pd in Spore, only notes and messages generation. This was mostly for efficiency reasons, and because sound processing had to use only a predictable amount of cpu ressources. It is likely that any other game will have similar limitations.
This is a general feature of procedural audio. In fact Pd plays very nice and has a fixed (predictable) cost for signal rate graphs - but a variable and unpredictable cost for message domain computation.
Proc audio eventually beats sample replay on cost because of dynamic level of detail where we get a variable (but predictable) cost for dynamically built signal graphs against a linear fixed cost for sample playback. It's an interesting bit of computer science to think about.
I know from talks with EA guys that EAPd ran into some problems and its performance was not spotless. But not for the reasons you state.
Andy
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 20:55:58 +0200 Cyrille.Damez@laposte.net wrote:
On Monday 09 June 2008 06:23:04 Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
Maybe EA had better hire a genuine pro from the pd-list (wink wink).
I hope that this thread takes off, since I'm curious what others think on the topic. Spore could be the PR break that Pd has been waiting for!
One thing to note though is that they confessed having only used Pd to trigger midi events and play samples. There is no "actual sound synthesis" done by pd in Spore, only notes and messages generation. This was mostly for efficiency reasons, and because sound processing had to use only a predictable amount of cpu ressources. It is likely that any other game will have similar limitations.
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Monday 09 June 2008 21:47:04 Andy Farnell wrote
I know from talks with EA guys that EAPd ran into some problems and its performance was not spotless. But not for the reasons you state.
Well, those reasons are the ones they gave me (or, if you prefer, what I understood from their answer) when I asked them at GDC.
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 21:11:23 +0200 Cyrille.Damez@laposte.net wrote:
On Monday 09 June 2008 21:47:04 Andy Farnell wrote
I know from talks with EA guys that EAPd ran into some problems and its performance was not spotless. But not for the reasons you state.
Well, those reasons are the ones they gave me (or, if you prefer, what I understood from their answer) when I asked them at GDC.
Sure, fair enough. I'm saying that 'efficiency reasons' is succinct but incomplete. Like when politicians say 'security reasons'. It hides a whole nest of complex problems. They almost certainly misused the word 'predictable' when they meant to say 'limited'. Respectfully, Andy
Andy Farnell wrote:
On Monday 09 June 2008 21:47:04 Andy Farnell wrote
I know from talks with EA guys that EAPd ran into some problems and its performance was not spotless. But not for the reasons you state.
Well, those reasons are the ones they gave me (or, if you prefer, what I understood from their answer) when I asked them at GDC.
Sure, fair enough. I'm saying that 'efficiency reasons' is succinct but incomplete. Like when politicians say 'security reasons'. It hides a whole nest of complex problems. They almost certainly misused the word 'predictable' when they meant to say 'limited'. Respectfully, Andy
hm.
i've worked with Pd on a CPU limited platform (PDA), and i've also worked in the games industry.
in the games industry, you can say to your sound department, 'you can have four channels of digital audio', and know exactly how many CPU cycles this is going to take. if you then go off and create sound is not to the Powers That Be's liking, it's an easy enough thing to drop in new samples, without effecting CPU usage.
with dynamically-generated audio, on the other hand, if the Powers That Be don't like the sound, changing it /will/ change the CPU usage, unless you can guarantee the same number of oscillators and DSP calculations - which would be unlikely for anything but trivial changes, or for changes late in the piece when the basic structure of the sound has already been laid out, where it's probably too late to ask for more CPU anyway.
so they're correct in saying that CPU usage for dynamic sound is not predictable, certainly not in the way that sample playback is. the trick, of course, is to get sound people who also know how to keep their CPU usage very low (consoles have absurdly small CPU power - the games they run look amazing because of very tight optimisations and clever coding), and the number of people with that level of skill is vanishingly small.
just my 2c.
d
damian stewart | +31 6 5902 5782 | damian@frey.co.nz frey | live art with machines | http://www.frey.co.nz
What you say is perfectly correct Damien and I cant fault the arument as far as you define predictability to be a human judgement. However I define predictability from a computer science POV which is different. In that sense a procedural implemetation is no more or less predictable than a data based approach.
The hidden (hard to see) advantage is that as you tend to the limit procedural audio combined with dynamic level of detail starts to beat the pants off data methods because you get a variable cost for dynamic sound objects while you are stuck with a linear, fixed cost per sample replay.
As far as important judgements in game development go the big picture is much more complex. Aesthetic judgements are just one axis of a multi dimensional tradeoff of runtime CPU efficiency, runtime memory footprint, runtime bus bandwidth, secondary storage requirements, development time, and aesthetic quality. Placing too much emphasis on just one aspect in order to allow one part of the team to exercise arbitrary on the fly planning is an unbalanced approach in my opinion.
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 16:34:19 +0200 Damian Stewart damian@frey.co.nz wrote:
Andy Farnell wrote:
On Monday 09 June 2008 21:47:04 Andy Farnell wrote
I know from talks with EA guys that EAPd ran into some problems and its performance was not spotless. But not for the reasons you state.
Well, those reasons are the ones they gave me (or, if you prefer, what I understood from their answer) when I asked them at GDC.
Sure, fair enough. I'm saying that 'efficiency reasons' is succinct but incomplete. Like when politicians say 'security reasons'. It hides a whole nest of complex problems. They almost certainly misused the word 'predictable' when they meant to say 'limited'. Respectfully, Andy
hm.
i've worked with Pd on a CPU limited platform (PDA), and i've also worked in the games industry.
in the games industry, you can say to your sound department, 'you can have four channels of digital audio', and know exactly how many CPU cycles this is going to take. if you then go off and create sound is not to the Powers That Be's liking, it's an easy enough thing to drop in new samples, without effecting CPU usage.
with dynamically-generated audio, on the other hand, if the Powers That Be don't like the sound, changing it /will/ change the CPU usage, unless you can guarantee the same number of oscillators and DSP calculations - which would be unlikely for anything but trivial changes, or for changes late in the piece when the basic structure of the sound has already been laid out, where it's probably too late to ask for more CPU anyway.
so they're correct in saying that CPU usage for dynamic sound is not predictable, certainly not in the way that sample playback is. the trick, of course, is to get sound people who also know how to keep their CPU usage very low (consoles have absurdly small CPU power - the games they run look amazing because of very tight optimisations and clever coding), and the number of people with that level of skill is vanishingly small.
just my 2c.
d
damian stewart | +31 6 5902 5782 | damian@frey.co.nz frey | live art with machines | http://www.frey.co.nz
I didn't want to have the last word on this thread so I'm just throwing another log on the fire.
As well as games, computer animation is another promising application. I know Hans has worked hard to foster links with the Blender Org.
I've also had the joy to colloborate with Joseph Thibodeau on some synthetic thunder models that have taken a direction towards offline high detail processing and managed to gain the enthusiasm of Skywalker who have offered computing resources to run models.
Being so busy with the book project lately I haven't had time to keep all these pots boiling. Anyway, I hope we can have a wider discussion than my quite narrow interpretation of procedural audio.
Andy
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 20:47:04 +0100 Andy Farnell padawan12@obiwannabe.co.uk wrote:
This is a general feature of procedural audio. In fact Pd plays very nice and has a fixed (predictable) cost for signal rate graphs - but a variable and unpredictable cost for message domain computation.
Proc audio eventually beats sample replay on cost because of dynamic level of detail where we get a variable (but predictable) cost for dynamically built signal graphs against a linear fixed cost for sample playback. It's an interesting bit of computer science to think about.
I know from talks with EA guys that EAPd ran into some problems and its performance was not spotless. But not for the reasons you state.
Andy
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 20:55:58 +0200 Cyrille.Damez@laposte.net wrote:
On Monday 09 June 2008 06:23:04 Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
Maybe EA had better hire a genuine pro from the pd-list (wink wink).
I hope that this thread takes off, since I'm curious what others think on the topic. Spore could be the PR break that Pd has been waiting for!
One thing to note though is that they confessed having only used Pd to trigger midi events and play samples. There is no "actual sound synthesis" done by pd in Spore, only notes and messages generation. This was mostly for efficiency reasons, and because sound processing had to use only a predictable amount of cpu ressources. It is likely that any other game will have similar limitations.
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- Use the source
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Great link Kyle!
Thanks for share it!
2008/6/8 Kyle Klipowicz kyleklip@gmail.com:
I think this link is relevant.
Cheers list!
http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/spore/853810p1.html
~Kyle
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 3:58 AM, raul diaz raul.lete@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Alberto!
2008/6/4 alberto.zin@poste.it alberto.zin@poste.it:
Hi Raul,
very, very interesting application, a nice example of communication between processing and Pd worlds. I think I'll learn a lot from your patch about Pd<->Processing communication (and processing programming too), so first of all thanks for sharing it!
Thanks a lot!
I've few questions/comments:
- GUI is too large for my poor 15 inches monitor :-(
I'm sorry about that. Somebody has tell me the same problem. I will make another smaller GUI version. Thanks for the feedback!
- How did you exported the processing interface
in a single executable?
Processing allows to export your code as a java applet for web or as an executable application...it's easy!
- The strategy of providing a full Pd Vanilla distribution
(plus the necessary libraries - OSC,..) plus an embedded processing executable (and jar clesses) is interesting. Also interesting hiding the Pd with -nogui option, the feeling is exactly to have a standalone instrument...
I find Pd a great tool for this kind of small standalone application like that. I would like to know alternative usages of Pd in this way from other Pd users and in other OS (mac, linux)....Anybody has something to tell?
Saludos!
-- Raul Diaz Poblete
http://creaciodigital.upf.edu/~i50874/http://creaciodigital.upf.edu/%7Ei50874/
raul.lete@gmail.com Barcelona [Spain]
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
--
http://perhapsidid.wordpress.com http://myspace.com/kyleklipowicz
-
alberto.zin＠poste.it -
Andy Farnell -
Cyrille.Damez＠laposte.net -
Damian Stewart -
Frank Barknecht -
Kevin McCoy -
Kyle Klipowicz -
marius schebella -
petoral＠optonline.net -
raul diaz