I think that's a brilliant idea, particularly given that I'm teaching an intro workshop this fall and would love to see resources. Of course, as i get a clearer idea of what I'll be doing, I'll add my own resources to the pot.
If there needs to be any web development in relation to this project, I'd love to help.
-Ian
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: [PD] open source Pd workshops From: "Hans-Christoph Steiner" hans@eds.org Date: Wed, April 21, 2004 7:25 am To: pd-list@iem.at
So since a number of us are doing Pd workshops these days, I thought
that we could join together to develop some open source Pd workshops
that we all can use. I am not entirely sure what form these would takesince I have only done a couple individual classes, mostly general
intros.I think that it would be cool to develop courses, like a one day
course, a one week course, etc. Ideally, the reading and the exerciseswould all be available on a single website, and maybe also included in
the Pd distros.
I have started some patches that illustrate concepts and experiments in
music cognition and perception that I will be checking into the CVS
once they are ready..hc
Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to
realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either change them, or perish. -William Carlos Williams
hi,
metoo think it's a great idea. esp. to have workshops to specific focusses, like "beginners", "networking, streaming", "video", "composition", "dsp theory", "interfaces and live performing", "external programming", ...
in addition to the workshops, or as a basis for them, a systematic documentation and teaching material should be available: online(html...), in printable form (pdf, working sheets), as pd-tutorial (stepwise), as pd-help-patches (reference), as FAQ, and there should be a discussion forum and/or the mailing list (including searcheable archives). So we need a place to collect, sort, revise and distribute the material (and of course people doing this job). there are lots of approaches and most thing are existing already, so perhaps focussing them in one point/place could (!) be a clever move now.
marius.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Smith-Heisters" heisters@0x09.com To: "Hans-Christoph Steiner" hans@eds.org Cc: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 7:33 PM Subject: RE: [PD] open source Pd workshops
I think that's a brilliant idea, particularly given that I'm teaching an
intro workshop this fall and would love
to see resources. Of course, as i get a clearer idea of what I'll be
doing, I'll add my own resources to the
pot.
If there needs to be any web development in relation to this project, I'd
love to help.
-Ian
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: [PD] open source Pd workshops From: "Hans-Christoph Steiner" hans@eds.org Date: Wed, April 21, 2004 7:25 am To: pd-list@iem.at
So since a number of us are doing Pd workshops these days, I thought that we could join together to develop some open source Pd workshops that we all can use. I am not entirely sure what form these would take
since I have only done a couple individual classes, mostly general intros.
I think that it would be cool to develop courses, like a one day course, a one week course, etc. Ideally, the reading and the exercises
would all be available on a single website, and maybe also included in
the Pd distros.
I have started some patches that illustrate concepts and experiments in
music cognition and perception that I will be checking into the CVS once they are ready.
.hc
Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either change them, or perish. -William Carlos Williams
PD-list mailing list PD-list@iem.at http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
Ok, to get things starting, I created a Wiki on pure-data.org:
http://pure-data.iem.at/docs/workshops
After we get a better idea of how to organize this, then we can decide
to change it to something more structured, like HTML, PDF, whatever.
I think that workshops are different than tutorials and documentation.
To me, tutorials are more narrow in focus, like one specific task, and
they are aimed at someone working without an instructor. These
workshops should be teaching materials for teaching classes, with a
syllabus, readings, exercises, and even lecture notes. I think given
Miller's book and other resources being online, think we should be able
to have all of the course materials freely available.
To start we can do this all in English, then as they get developed,
they could be translated into any language.
.hc
On Thursday, Apr 22, 2004, at 04:30 America/New_York, marius schebella
wrote:
hi,
metoo think it's a great idea. esp. to have workshops to specific
focusses, like "beginners", "networking, streaming", "video", "composition", "dsp theory", "interfaces and live performing", "external programming", ...
in addition to the workshops, or as a basis for them, a systematic documentation and teaching material should be available:
online(html...), in printable form (pdf, working sheets), as pd-tutorial (stepwise), as pd-help-patches (reference), as FAQ, and there should be a discussion
forum and/or the mailing list (including searcheable archives). So we need a
place to collect, sort, revise and distribute the material (and of course
people doing this job). there are lots of approaches and most thing are
existing already, so perhaps focussing them in one point/place could (!) be a
clever move now.marius.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Smith-Heisters" heisters@0x09.com To: "Hans-Christoph Steiner" hans@eds.org Cc: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 7:33 PM Subject: RE: [PD] open source Pd workshops
I think that's a brilliant idea, particularly given that I'm teaching
anintro workshop this fall and would love
to see resources. Of course, as i get a clearer idea of what I'll be
doing, I'll add my own resources to the
pot.
If there needs to be any web development in relation to this project,
I'dlove to help.
-Ian
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: [PD] open source Pd workshops From: "Hans-Christoph Steiner" hans@eds.org Date: Wed, April 21, 2004 7:25 am To: pd-list@iem.at
So since a number of us are doing Pd workshops these days, I thought that we could join together to develop some open source Pd workshops that we all can use. I am not entirely sure what form these would
takesince I have only done a couple individual classes, mostly general intros.
I think that it would be cool to develop courses, like a one day course, a one week course, etc. Ideally, the reading and the
exerciseswould all be available on a single website, and maybe also included
inthe Pd distros.
I have started some patches that illustrate concepts and experiments
inmusic cognition and perception that I will be checking into the CVS once they are ready.
.hc
Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either change them, or perish. -William Carlos Williams
PD-list mailing list PD-list@iem.at http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
http://at.or.at/hans/
this sounds good to me. We will try to collaborate although I am not sure how... maybe a section about how to comunicate PD with existant multimedia software via OSC?
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Ok, to get things starting, I created a Wiki on pure-data.org:
http://pure-data.iem.at/docs/workshops
After we get a better idea of how to organize this, then we can decide
to change it to something more structured, like HTML, PDF, whatever.I think that workshops are different than tutorials and documentation.
To me, tutorials are more narrow in focus, like one specific task, and
they are aimed at someone working without an instructor. These
workshops should be teaching materials for teaching classes, with a
syllabus, readings, exercises, and even lecture notes. I think given
Miller's book and other resources being online, think we should be able
to have all of the course materials freely available.To start we can do this all in English, then as they get developed,
they could be translated into any language..hc
On Thursday, Apr 22, 2004, at 04:30 America/New_York, marius schebella
wrote:hi,
metoo think it's a great idea. esp. to have workshops to specific
focusses, like "beginners", "networking, streaming", "video", "composition", "dsp theory", "interfaces and live performing", "external programming", ...in addition to the workshops, or as a basis for them, a systematic documentation and teaching material should be available:
online(html...), in printable form (pdf, working sheets), as pd-tutorial (stepwise), as pd-help-patches (reference), as FAQ, and there should be a discussion
forum and/or the mailing list (including searcheable archives). So we need a place to collect, sort, revise and distribute the material (and of course
people doing this job). there are lots of approaches and most thing are
existing already, so perhaps focussing them in one point/place could (!) be a
clever move now.marius.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Smith-Heisters" heisters@0x09.com To: "Hans-Christoph Steiner" hans@eds.org Cc: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 7:33 PM Subject: RE: [PD] open source Pd workshops
I think that's a brilliant idea, particularly given that I'm teaching an
intro workshop this fall and would love
to see resources. Of course, as i get a clearer idea of what I'll be
doing, I'll add my own resources to the
pot.
If there needs to be any web development in relation to this project, I'd
love to help.
-Ian
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: [PD] open source Pd workshops From: "Hans-Christoph Steiner" hans@eds.org Date: Wed, April 21, 2004 7:25 am To: pd-list@iem.at
So since a number of us are doing Pd workshops these days, I thought that we could join together to develop some open source Pd workshops that we all can use. I am not entirely sure what form these would
takesince I have only done a couple individual classes, mostly general intros.
I think that it would be cool to develop courses, like a one day course, a one week course, etc. Ideally, the reading and the
exerciseswould all be available on a single website, and maybe also included in
the Pd distros.
I have started some patches that illustrate concepts and experiments in
music cognition and perception that I will be checking into the CVS once they are ready.
.hc
Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either change them, or perish. -William Carlos Williams
PD-list mailing list PD-list@iem.at http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
http://at.or.at/hans/
hi hans/all,
well we could start with an unstructured collection of materials at this place, like, texts, links, ideas, exercises. So that if someone plans to have a workshop about Pd he/she can search this library for useful stuff. for workshops will be individual anyhow, because of hours, number of participants... this could be another approach.
how can I get access to that directory on the pure data plone?
I have not really held or participate in any *workshops*, although I had a very good course about max/msp at the university, anyway reports from the front would help a lot...
m.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans-Christoph Steiner" hans@eds.org To: "marius schebella" marius.schebella@chello.at Cc: "Ian Smith-Heisters" heisters@0x09.com; pd-list@iem.at Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [PD] open source Pd workshops
Ok, to get things starting, I created a Wiki on pure-data.org:
http://pure-data.iem.at/docs/workshops
After we get a better idea of how to organize this, then we can decide to change it to something more structured, like HTML, PDF, whatever.
I think that workshops are different than tutorials and documentation. To me, tutorials are more narrow in focus, like one specific task, and they are aimed at someone working without an instructor. These workshops should be teaching materials for teaching classes, with a syllabus, readings, exercises, and even lecture notes. I think given Miller's book and other resources being online, think we should be able to have all of the course materials freely available.
To start we can do this all in English, then as they get developed, they could be translated into any language.
.hc
On Thursday, Apr 22, 2004, at 04:30 America/New_York, marius schebella wrote:
hi,
metoo think it's a great idea. esp. to have workshops to specific focusses, like "beginners", "networking, streaming", "video", "composition", "dsp theory", "interfaces and live performing", "external programming", ...
in addition to the workshops, or as a basis for them, a systematic documentation and teaching material should be available: online(html...), in printable form (pdf, working sheets), as pd-tutorial (stepwise), as pd-help-patches (reference), as FAQ, and there should be a discussion forum and/or the mailing list (including searcheable archives). So we need a place to collect, sort, revise and distribute the material (and of course people doing this job). there are lots of approaches and most thing are existing already, so perhaps focussing them in one point/place could (!) be a clever move now.
marius.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Smith-Heisters" heisters@0x09.com To: "Hans-Christoph Steiner" hans@eds.org Cc: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 7:33 PM Subject: RE: [PD] open source Pd workshops
I think that's a brilliant idea, particularly given that I'm teaching an
intro workshop this fall and would love
to see resources. Of course, as i get a clearer idea of what I'll be
doing, I'll add my own resources to the
pot.
If there needs to be any web development in relation to this project, I'd
love to help.
-Ian
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: [PD] open source Pd workshops From: "Hans-Christoph Steiner" hans@eds.org Date: Wed, April 21, 2004 7:25 am To: pd-list@iem.at
So since a number of us are doing Pd workshops these days, I thought that we could join together to develop some open source Pd workshops that we all can use. I am not entirely sure what form these would take
since I have only done a couple individual classes, mostly general intros.
I think that it would be cool to develop courses, like a one day course, a one week course, etc. Ideally, the reading and the exercises
would all be available on a single website, and maybe also included in
the Pd distros.
I have started some patches that illustrate concepts and experiments in
music cognition and perception that I will be checking into the CVS once they are ready.
.hc
Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either change them, or perish. -William Carlos Williams
PD-list mailing list PD-list@iem.at http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
http://at.or.at/hans/
Hallo, marius schebella hat gesagt: // marius schebella wrote:
how can I get access to that directory on the pure data plone?
Create a user account, log in, and you should be able to edit the Wiki pages. There also are some clever things possible with using meta-data for objects, you've put in your Plone home folder.
I have not really held or participate in any *workshops*, although I had a very good course about max/msp at the university, anyway reports from the front would help a lot...
I will have to hold my first workshop next month, duh, so I will have to dig into this as well. But I wonder, how much the actual workshop material will differ from normal documentation or tutorials. To me workshop material (example patches, texts, etc.) seems to look very similar to the things you would expect in the docs as well.
The only real difference I see, is that you will have to supply problems or tasks to your students, that they should work on after learning a certain thing. But isn't the rest just documentation? Or am I already showing the bad teacher inside of me?
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
how can I get access to that directory on the pure data plone?
Create a user account, log in, and you should be able to edit the Wiki pages. There also are some clever things possible with using meta-data for objects, you've put in your Plone home folder.
but the documentation is meant to be in http://pure-data.iem.at/docs/workshops and i cannot add files there.
m
On Friday, Apr 23, 2004, at 05:29 America/New_York, marius schebella
wrote:
how can I get access to that directory on the pure data plone?
Create a user account, log in, and you should be able to edit the Wiki pages. There also are some clever things possible with using meta-data for objects, you've put in your Plone home folder.
but the documentation is meant to be in http://pure-data.iem.at/docs/workshops and i cannot add files there.
Hmm, I haven't worked with the Plone wiki much. You can't edit the
wiki at all? You could just link to something in your home folder from
the wiki for now. Then as we build out these workshops, we can
organize things.
I think the first step is gathering the materials.
.hc
There is no way to peace, peace is the way.
-A.J. Muste
Hi all,
thanks much for starting this thread! Frank, Aymeric and I will be doing an Open Source PD workshop at Montevideo next month, and hopefully out of our collective brainpower we can document how we go about it and provide a good template for others to improve on.
More on this soon... am currently in the festival-zone in Osnabrueck for EMAF. [Olaf, I will meet you soon?]
best, d.
We should also discuss the license up front. My vote is for Creative
Commons ShareAlike (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sa/1.0/ ) for
the written materials, and GNU GPL for the code.
.hc
On Friday, Apr 23, 2004, at 06:37 America/New_York, derek holzer wrote:
Hi all,
thanks much for starting this thread! Frank, Aymeric and I will be
doing an Open Source PD workshop at Montevideo next month, and
hopefully out of our collective brainpower we can document how we go
about it and provide a good template for others to improve on.More on this soon... am currently in the festival-zone in Osnabrueck
for EMAF. [Olaf, I will meet you soon?]best, d.
--
derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ---Oblique Strategy # 21: "Be less critical"
PD-list mailing list PD-list@iem.at http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to
realize his wishes.
Now that he can realize them, he must either change them, or perish.
-William Carlos Williams
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
We should also discuss the license up front. My vote is for Creative Commons ShareAlike (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sa/1.0/ ) for the written materials, and GNU GPL for the code.
GPL for code is fine, but I'm on a - as Josh would put it, and I like that word ;) - "personal vendetta" against CC licenses, so I'd rather not put my material under this kind of license. Unfortunatly I didn't find another one, that is in widespread use and still fits all people. GNU Free Documentation would be nice in general, but seems to have several problems with several things (see debian.org). Darn, I don't know much else than that I don't like CC, and I can't even put my CC aversion into sensible words.
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
On Friday, Apr 23, 2004, at 12:13 America/New_York, Frank Barknecht
wrote:
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
We should also discuss the license up front. My vote is for Creative Commons ShareAlike (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sa/1.0/ ) for the written materials, and GNU GPL for the code.
GPL for code is fine, but I'm on a - as Josh would put it, and I like that word ;) - "personal vendetta" against CC licenses, so I'd rather not put my material under this kind of license. Unfortunatly I didn't find another one, that is in widespread use and still fits all people. GNU Free Documentation would be nice in general, but seems to have several problems with several things (see debian.org). Darn, I don't know much else than that I don't like CC, and I can't even put my CC aversion into sensible words.
Well, it would be good to have some reasons, because as far as I know,
the CC ShareAlike license would fit this very well. We could also just
GPL and call it a day, but there seems to be reasons to not GPL docs,
which I don't really know.
.hc
"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of
exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an
idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps
it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the
possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of
it."
- Thomas Jefferson
NSL - (Nemo Seagull License) "Mine. Mine, mine, mine. Mine, mine, mine, mine, mine." http://www.chrisdiclerico.com/images/mine.jpg http://www.moviewavspage.com/movies/finding_nemo/mine.wav
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Friday, Apr 23, 2004, at 12:13 America/New_York, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: We should also discuss the license up front. My vote is for Creative Commons ShareAlike (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sa/1.0/ ) for the written materials, and GNU GPL for the code. GPL for code is fine, but I'm on a - as Josh would put it, and I like that word ;) - "personal vendetta" against CC licenses, so I'd rather not put my material under this kind of license. Unfortunatly I didn't find another one, that is in widespread use and still fits all people. GNU Free Documentation would be nice in general, but seems to have several problems with several things (see debian.org). Darn, I don't know much else than that I don't like CC, and I can't even put my CC aversion into sensible words.
Well, it would be good to have some reasons, because as far as I know, the CC ShareAlike license would fit this very well. We could also just GPL and call it a day, but there seems to be reasons to not GPL docs, which I don't really know.
.hc
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Well, it would be good to have some reasons, because as far as I know, the CC ShareAlike license would fit this very well. We could also just GPL and call it a day, but there seems to be reasons to not GPL docs, which I don't really know.
It's more a feeling thing. I don't like that CC provides so many licenses some of which I wouldn't call "free" licenses. Now even a sampling license was written, a translation license will follow and so on. This is so lawyerish. And I just stumbled accross this text:
http://www.business2.com/b2/web/articles/print/0,17925,608619,00.html
which unintentionally captures all my reservations against CC: It says
"Yet if Creative Commons is successful, sharing will become even
more pervasive. And a lot more money will be made along the way."
I have the feeling, that CC is in fact about exactly this: Somehow find a new big-business-model for a world where lossless digital copies already are common (sic!).
I like, that the FSF always was not so much about business models but held to that ethics goal of a more free society (for programmers).
I hope it's becoming clear, that this isn't a rational or legally correct descicion, but about a bad feeling I have with CC. It wouldn't stop me from providing content for a community project like that -- provided one of the free CC licenses is chosen, that is: Commercial use must be allowed. Also I would insist on ShareAlike.
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
It's more a feeling thing. I don't like that CC provides so many licenses some of which I wouldn't call "free" licenses. Now even a sampling license was written, a translation license will follow and so on. This is so lawyerish. And I just stumbled accross this text:
http://www.business2.com/b2/web/articles/print/0,17925,608619,00.html
which unintentionally captures all my reservations against CC: It says
"Yet if Creative Commons is successful, sharing will become even more pervasive. And a lot more money will be made along the way."
The article is rather unclear in how "a lot more money will be made". and, I'm not so sure that would be a bad thing.
I have the feeling, that CC is in fact about exactly this: Somehow find a new big-business-model for a world where lossless digital copies already are common (sic!).
hmm. I see it as something else. The main point about copyright is control. Even the GPL is a copyright, and is about control.
The main point of the CreaCom licenses, as I see it, are that artists can retain _some_ control, but still be able to allow people rights for personal use and share amongst themselves.
the idea of retaining _some_ control is to protect yourself from being commercialy exploited (thinking of how Mac OSX exploits BSD), and to keep your stuff from being the moto song of something that has mass public exposure and cuts across your ethics or wishes. I'm not so sure, but I maybe Twisted Sister does not approve the use of their song, "We're not going to take it", in Arnie Schwarzeneggers gobernatorial race.
I like, that the FSF always was not so much about business models but held to that ethics goal of a more free society (for programmers).
not true. read stallman, and you will see that he was a capitalist from the beginning. lessig is aiming at something else I think.
I hope it's becoming clear, that this isn't a rational or legally correct descicion, but about a bad feeling I have with CC. It wouldn't stop me from providing content for a community project like that -- provided one of the free CC licenses is chosen, that is: Commercial use must be allowed. Also I would insist on ShareAlike.
I hear ya. I can't think of a perfect license either. I haven't read all the docs myself, but I think CreaCom license might be heading a decent direction.
best -august.
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Le 23 Avril 2004 21:27, august a écrit :
read stallman, and you will see that he was a capitalist from the beginning.
R.S. Stallman "was" a capitalist? That's funny; where did you read that? Maybe capitalism is some sort of a dormant gene that goes on and off; let's patent it!
lessig is aiming at something else I think.
Probably fame, by selling free books...
:-)
Marc
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Le 23 Avril 2004 14:10, Frank Barknecht a écrit :
It's more a feeling thing. I don't like that CC provides so many licenses some of which I wouldn't call "free" licenses.
There's a lot of confusion about free licenses, and the CC is offering a legal framework to use those licenses. You might not need it.
I have the feeling, that CC is in fact about exactly this: Somehow find a new big-business-model for a world where lossless digital copies already are common (sic!).
Copyright/left is about ownership, not about business models. Ownership is not a concept exclusive to material goods. Lossless digital copying is common, but a large part of this activity is illegal, so we need something like the CC.
I like, that the FSF always was not so much about business models but held to that ethics goal of a more free society (for programmers).
Not only for programmers; that's why the CC exists now.
Also I would insist on ShareAlike.
As one of the CC license. I agree.
Marc
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004, Frank Barknecht wrote:
"Yet if Creative Commons is successful, sharing will become even more pervasive. And a lot more money will be made along the way." I have the feeling, that CC is in fact about exactly this: Somehow find a new big-business-model for a world where lossless digital copies already are common (sic!). I like, that the FSF always was not so much about business models but held to that ethics goal of a more free society (for programmers).
Well, if there is not enough focus on business models, then, in most situations, free-software programmers have to get day-jobs, and do the free-software part as a hobby, if they still feel like it after already coding proprietary software all day long to pay the rent.
If more time were spent developing business models, free-software would be much more commonplace and pervasively developed/used than it is now. Ethics are more often respected when the rules are not too difficult to apply.
Mathieu Bouchard http://artengine.ca/matju
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Le 24 Avril 2004 17:01, Mathieu Bouchard a écrit :
If more time were spent developing business models, free-software would be much more commonplace and pervasively developed/used than it is now.
Successful business model are possible when people share similar values, so we tend to amplify values with the lowest common denominators and reducing important values to fit the largest possible audience.
One business solution is to sell "products", because everybody understand that model. Strangely enough, some people prefer to buy Gnu/Linux distributions in a shrinkwrap box filled with air and accompanied by a small installation booklet.
Maybe work done for PD could be shrinkwrapped, with lots of usefull bells and whistles, but I believe a service model would be better suited, since the PD community prefer to use free (both as in beer and speech) resources.
Ethics are more often respected when the rules are not too difficult to apply.
Sadly, ethic is considered when its application is very confortable and its precepts easy to forget without causing too much damages. Instant gratification, both material and spiritual, are usually good sellers.
Marc
Darn, I don't know much else than that I don't like CC, and I can't even put my CC aversion into sensible words.
first of all you are not alone with your aversion: the big run on CC licenses did not start - there has to be a reason, since it is a very well marketed license. at least in austria, some important privacy/free software related groups do not trust it.
another point: except for japanese jurisdiction, the licenses have not been adapted to national laws. in fact i am quite sure that they aren't worth anything in europe. there have been some cases proving that GPL is valid in germany - yet it took many years and thousands of files licensed under it to make it "established law" - the situation is different with CC.
but maybe it is better to chose a CC license than any more obscure or no at all or an inapplicable (like GPL afaik).
lg martin
attacksyour.net/pi
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Le 26 Avril 2004 06:02, martin pichlmair a écrit :
first of all you are not alone with your aversion: the big run on CC licenses did not start - there has to be a reason, since it is a very well marketed license. at least in austria, some important privacy/free software related groups do not trust it.
Which groups? What are their reasons?
another point: except for japanese jurisdiction, the licenses have not been adapted to national laws.
That's good news from Japan, but it doesn't prove that the GPL is invalid elsewhere; it was carefully crafted to not require adaptation to national laws.
in fact i am quite sure that they aren't worth anything in europe. there have been some cases proving that GPL is valid in germany -
Most people don't go to court when violating the GPL, because it's difficult to win against it; the NetFilter vs Sitecom case is a good example.
yet it took many years and thousands of files licensed under it to make it "established law" - the situation is different with CC.
I don't see much differences since the CC promote the use of free licenses. Are you suggesting to wait many years before using the CC licenses?
but maybe it is better to chose a CC license than any more obscure or no at all or an inapplicable (like GPL afaik).
The GPL is very simple: it makes any user not respecting it a counterfeiter. It might be difficult to understand (like most licenses), but not to apply.
Marc
Marc Lavallée wrote:
another point: except for japanese jurisdiction, the licenses have not been adapted to national laws.
That's good news from Japan, but it doesn't prove that the GPL is invalid elsewhere; it was carefully crafted to not require adaptation to national laws.
i think pi was referring to the CC-licenses not to the GPL.
in fact i am quite sure that they aren't worth anything in europe. there have been some cases proving that GPL is valid in germany -
Most people don't go to court when violating the GPL, because it's difficult to win against it; the NetFilter vs Sitecom case is a good example.
even though probably no-one will go to court when a free-license is violated, it is still important that there is some legal background .
yet it took many years and thousands of files licensed under it to make it "established law" - the situation is different with CC.
I don't see much differences since the CC promote the use of free licenses. Are you suggesting to wait many years before using the CC licenses?
not necessarily. pi just points out, that it took years for the GPL to become established law. successor-licenses (like CC) will most probably get "established" much faster.
now the circulus vitiosus is, that the CC will never get "established" when no-one uses it because it is not "established".
but i do think, that there must be no doubt that the chosen license is compatible with the documenter's national law - and this includes (besides japan) of course, the US-law and (which is particularily important for me) european law. (and of course all the others i have no time nor knowledge to mention)
but maybe it is better to chose a CC license than any more obscure or no at all or an inapplicable (like GPL afaik).
The GPL is very simple: it makes any user not respecting it a counterfeiter. It might be difficult to understand (like most licenses), but not to apply.
the question is rather (as i understand it, and i am not an expert with licensing at all): can the GPL be applied to documentation (read: articles, manuals,...) at all ? it is not meant for this type of texts, that is why they have written the GFDL.
mfg.asd.r IOhannes
Le 26 Avril 2004 09:47, IOhannes m zmoelnig a écrit :
i think pi was referring to the CC-licenses not to the GPL.
You're right. But the GPL is part of the CC offering.
even though probably no-one will go to court when a free-license is violated, it is still important that there is some legal background .
If free software licenses are not contested, it's because they work.
now the circulus vitiosus is, that the CC will never get "established" when no-one uses it because it is not "established".
We need crazy people to do it first in order to get reassured...
the question is rather (as i understand it, and i am not an expert with licensing at all): can the GPL be applied to documentation (read: articles, manuals,...) at all ? it is not meant for this type of texts, that is why they have written the GFDL.
I've seen text and music licenced under the GPL, but I don't think it is appropriate. The GPL is a software license, and the CC recommend to use the GFDL. for documentation.
Hallo, Marc Lavallée hat gesagt: // Marc Lavallée wrote:
I've seen text and music licenced under the GPL, but I don't think it is appropriate. The GPL is a software license, and the CC recommend to use the GFDL. for documentation.
Really? At least I know, that the FSF recommends some CC licenses for "art" purposes.
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
On Friday, Apr 23, 2004, at 05:13 America/New_York, Frank Barknecht
wrote:
Hallo, marius schebella hat gesagt: // marius schebella wrote:
how can I get access to that directory on the pure data plone?
Create a user account, log in, and you should be able to edit the Wiki pages. There also are some clever things possible with using meta-data for objects, you've put in your Plone home folder.
I have not really held or participate in any *workshops*, although I
had a very good course about max/msp at the university, anyway reports from
the front would help a lot...I will have to hold my first workshop next month, duh, so I will have to dig into this as well. But I wonder, how much the actual workshop material will differ from normal documentation or tutorials. To me workshop material (example patches, texts, etc.) seems to look very similar to the things you would expect in the docs as well.
The only real difference I see, is that you will have to supply problems or tasks to your students, that they should work on after learning a certain thing. But isn't the rest just documentation? Or am I already showing the bad teacher inside of me?
I think that documentation and tutorials are for someone to read on
their own. For the workshops, we should have stuff like lecture notes,
in-class presentation materials and examples, homework examples, etc.
There is quite a bit of this stuff online, let me see what I can dig up
as a good example of what we should try to build.
.hc
Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to
realize his wishes.
Now that he can realize them, he must either change them, or perish.
-William Carlos Williams