hey everyone
i'm setting out to build an automatic chord progression system - you tell it to start in C Major, centre around E minor, with a given deviance factor, and then bang it repeatedly and it spits out a new chord/voicing each time you bang it, that makes harmonic sense and sounds good as a progression.
(why? it struck me while i was listening to my friend's set the other night that too much dance- or dance-derived music is harmonically static. simple solution: make a quasi-intelligent system that knows what progressions sound good, and get it to do all the work. imagining coupling it up to fiddle~ and a vocalist..)
based on jazz harmony theory, which i have had the tiniest of nosies into, this will involve encoding knowledge about all twelve scales, major and minor, as well as the modes and relationships between them. before i start, is there anything i should look at that might help, or solve the problem for me, or make the whole idea irrelevant?
cheers d
First of all, from a personal and very prejudiced point of view, I think, you should consider having progressions of "cells" and ditch this triadic way of thinking. I often like harmonically static music, I don't think that's the problem. I think the problem is that the harmony chosen is of the simplest kind. For minimal types of techno, I prefer static over the kinds of stupid triad sequences we get in pop music and such. However, it's best if the harmony chosen were some cell like, F Gb A Bb B Eb, much less offensive than C E G. If you do stick with triads, consider Wagnerian type sequences and chromatic cycles.
I can tell from the jazz point of view, C major is not what it is in classical music. For instance, giving an extremely simple example, the construction C E G B D F# A, would be a perfectly valid chord to impose over C major. Or, listen to John Coltrane live solos on "Impressions", which goes {D minor, D minor, Eb minor, D minor} -- harmonically static, yet inclusive of all 12 notes (not too mention some sounds that can't really be described as notes per so).
Also, any solutions will be trivial, if they do not have the possibility to produce bad results. It might be cooler, to have a computer spit out progressions, and you choose whether you like it. Perhaps a neural net could learn your taste in harmony?
Technically, this sounds like a job for markov chains.
~David
On 8/11/06, Damian Stewart damian@frey.co.nz wrote:
hey everyone
i'm setting out to build an automatic chord progression system - you tell it to start in C Major, centre around E minor, with a given deviance factor, and then bang it repeatedly and it spits out a new chord/voicing each time you bang it, that makes harmonic sense and sounds good as a progression.
(why? it struck me while i was listening to my friend's set the other night that too much dance- or dance-derived music is harmonically static. simple solution: make a quasi-intelligent system that knows what progressions sound good, and get it to do all the work. imagining coupling it up to fiddle~ and a vocalist..)
based on jazz harmony theory, which i have had the tiniest of nosies into, this will involve encoding knowledge about all twelve scales, major and minor, as well as the modes and relationships between them. before i start, is there anything i should look at that might help, or solve the problem for me, or make the whole idea irrelevant?
cheers d
-- f r e y live music with machines http://www.frey.co.nz
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On 8/11/06, David Powers cyborgk@gmail.com wrote:
If you do stick with triads, consider Wagnerian type sequences and chromatic cycles.
That would be something I think an intelligent program could handle; having a repository of harmonies that serve to suspend/link any tonality, and using them according to... I don't know... randomness?
Or, listen to John Coltrane live solos on "Impressions", which goes {D minor, D minor, Eb minor, D minor} -- harmonically static, yet inclusive of all 12 notes (not too mention some sounds that can't really be described as notes per so).
'Kind of Blue' is another great harmonically static jazz album. Not exactly rave material, though.
Also, any solutions will be trivial, if they do not have the possibility to produce bad results. It might be cooler, to have a computer spit out progressions, and you choose whether you like it. Perhaps a neural net could learn your taste in harmony?
That would be amazing.
Technically, this sounds like a job for markov chains.
I'll look them up.
-Chuckk
Two things come to me right away. One of the things Bach did was to start using certain notes that implied a key change before there was any indication of momentum towards a key change. It's easy to work a Bb into a theme in C without giving too much away. Then when it happens, the change sounds like it fulfilled some subtle destiny. I have *no idea* how you could do this with Pd. You can get away with a lot of little borrowed progressions with jazz. Any chord whatsoever can be preceded by a dominant 7th, or a tritone sub for a dominant 7th, and that in turn can be preceded by a minor 7th, or a tritone sub for that, and so on. You could actually have lots of momentary forays that would end up returning to the original key.
Far easier to come up with ideas for it than to actually patch them... -Chuckk
On 8/11/06, Damian Stewart damian@frey.co.nz wrote:
hey everyone
i'm setting out to build an automatic chord progression system - you tell it to start in C Major, centre around E minor, with a given deviance factor, and then bang it repeatedly and it spits out a new chord/voicing each time you bang it, that makes harmonic sense and sounds good as a progression.
(why? it struck me while i was listening to my friend's set the other night that too much dance- or dance-derived music is harmonically static. simple solution: make a quasi-intelligent system that knows what progressions sound good, and get it to do all the work. imagining coupling it up to fiddle~ and a vocalist..)
based on jazz harmony theory, which i have had the tiniest of nosies into, this will involve encoding knowledge about all twelve scales, major and minor, as well as the modes and relationships between them. before i start, is there anything i should look at that might help, or solve the problem for me, or make the whole idea irrelevant?
cheers d
-- f r e y live music with machines http://www.frey.co.nz
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Hi, I higly suggest you to check what alexandre quessy has done in his muzaq abstractions and externals.
You are certainly going to make exactly the same thing.
patco.
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On Fri, 11 Aug 2006, Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
It's easy to work a Bb into a theme in C without giving too much away.
Indeed, often the VII is not played much, and until it is played at all, you can't distinguish between a ionian and a mixolydian. If a melody is supposedly in C ionian but doesn't contain a VII then you consider it as being C mixolydian and it wouldn't make much of a difference.
That said, I'd like to say that mixolydian modes are extremely common, and arguably more common than ionian ones nowadays! as a proof, think that a 7th chord defaults to mixolydian, and you have to call it "major 7th" for it to mean ionian.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
On 8/12/06, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006, Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
It's easy to work a Bb into a theme in C without giving too much away.
Indeed, often the VII is not played much, and until it is played at all, you can't distinguish between a ionian and a mixolydian. If a melody is supposedly in C ionian but doesn't contain a VII then you consider it as being C mixolydian and it wouldn't make much of a difference.
That said, I'd like to say that mixolydian modes are extremely common, and arguably more common than ionian ones nowadays! as a proof, think that a 7th chord defaults to mixolydian, and you have to call it "major 7th" for it to mean ionian.
There's a girl studying composition here who writes kind of new-agey piano-voice stuff, maybe a la Tori Amos, definitely a la some anime themes, and we were chatting once (my motivation was not strictly musical) when she said, "I really like to write mixolydian, I just feel like that's my mode." What do you say to that? "My apartment seems very mixolydian"?
Since folks are brainstorming on musical structures, I recall reading something in a book about Bartok, about an idea he tried to use. Expanding on the idea of a tritone substitution, he built a "key" made from the circle of 5ths, where you would use 4 keys, minor thirds apart, and then every root of a chord would be either tonic, dominant, or subdominant of one of those 4. For some reason he had two major keys a tritone apart, and then at the minor thirds between them, minor keys. I think his idea was to arbitrarily substitute tonic for tonic, dominant for dominant, subdominant for subdominant. E.g.:
F C G C could become F F# G C, or Abm F# Em(or E7) C and so on. I think a jazz theory teacher somewhere used to mention third substitution too. That would be a simple way to take things outside the usual electronica. I don't know if it would always sound good, but hey, Jimi Hendrix didn't always sound good.
-Chuckk
"A composer is a guy who goes around forcing his will on unsuspecting air molecules, often with the assistance of unsuspecting musicians." -Frank Zappa
There's a girl studying composition here who writes kind of new-agey piano-voice stuff, maybe a la Tori Amos, definitely a la some anime themes, and we were chatting once (my motivation was not strictly musical) when she said, "I really like to write mixolydian, I just feel like that's my mode." What do you say to that? "My apartment seems very mixolydian"? We can make a mixolydian mode sounding lydian (my favorite) as well as sounding like other modes, for any chord in the major scale, we just have to insist on the pattern of the lydian arpeggio, for having a lydian sounding mixolydian, where the chord would also tend to be the fourth of the major scale with using the fifth note for the bass.
( Just try that, and you will sound like F. Zappa in Inca Road's chorus, or Shut Up And Play Guitar's solo, which is from the same song).
Using pentatonic scales would multiply by seven the number of combinations of a mode sounding.
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On 8/13/06, patco megalegoland@yahoo.fr wrote:
There's a girl studying composition here who writes kind of new-agey piano-voice stuff, maybe a la Tori Amos, definitely a la some anime themes, and we were chatting once (my motivation was not strictly musical) when she said, "I really like to write mixolydian, I just feel like that's my mode." What do you say to that? "My apartment seems very mixolydian"? We can make a mixolydian mode sounding lydian (my favorite) as well as sounding like other modes, for any chord in the major scale, we just have to insist on the pattern of the lydian arpeggio, for having a lydian sounding mixolydian, where the chord would also tend to be the fourth of the major scale with using the fifth note for the bass.
I can't quite follow this.
( Just try that, and you will sound like F. Zappa in Inca Road's chorus, or Shut Up And Play Guitar's solo, which is from the same song).
I'd love to sound like Inca Roads. You mean like, SOL in the bass, and FA, LA, DO, MI, and TI? That does sound like FZ. Kind of reminds me of 'Yo Mama', but it could be my imagination. -Chuckk
-Chuckk
This looks interesting: http://mto.societymusictheory.org/issues/mto.04.10.3/mto.04.10.3.callender.p...
Also the orbifold thing, I wonder if a kind of random walk on an orbifold could be implemented in pd... Martin
On 8/13/06, Martin Peach martin.peach@sympatico.ca wrote:
This looks interesting: http://mto.societymusictheory.org/issues/mto.04.10.3/mto.04.10.3.callender.p...
It does look interesting- the same way the inside of my computer looks interesting, lol. It must be pretty powerful stuff.
-Chuckk
On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Martin Peach wrote:
This looks interesting: http://mto.societymusictheory.org/issues/mto.04.10.3/mto.04.10.3.callender.p... Also the orbifold thing, I wonder if a kind of random walk on an orbifold could be implemented in pd...
Are orbifolds mentioned in the paper? which page?
I tried reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbifold, skipping the physics parts, and although I can say that it looks like a reasonable definition for that thing, I have no clue what it's useful for, and certainly not anything music-wise. What do you do with R^n subset quotients that have anything to do with music?
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Martin Peach wrote:
This looks interesting: http://mto.societymusictheory.org/issues/mto.04.10.3/mto.04.10.3.callender.p...
Also the orbifold thing, I wonder if a kind of random walk on an orbifold could be implemented in pd...
Are orbifolds mentioned in the paper? which page?
No, that was another link I couldn't find right then. Here is one reference with nice pictures: http://www.ruccas.org/pub/Gogins/score_generation_in_voiceleading_orbifolds....
I tried reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbifold, skipping the physics parts, and although I can say that it looks like a reasonable definition for that thing, I have no clue what it's useful for, and certainly not anything music-wise. What do you do with R^n subset quotients that have anything to do with music?
It looks like voice-leading orbifolds are a special type of orbifold. They seem to be used more by theorists to justify intuitively generated compositions after the fact than as tools for composition.
Martin
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
F C G C could become F F# G C, or Abm F# Em(or E7) C and so on. I think a jazz theory teacher somewhere used to mention third substitution too. That would be a simple way to take things outside the usual electronica. I don't know if it would always sound good, but hey, Jimi Hendrix didn't always sound good.
I think Hendrix was very well aware of that, and that's why he was thinking of switching bands in order to renew his sound. He had a deal with three other guys for starting a new band called HELP. Hendrix delayed his involvement in that project because of schedule issues and then died. The new band started anyway, dropping the letter H from its name, and made a bunch of successful albums and shows. It was notable by the fact that it was at once called a "rock band" and yet never has had any non-bass electric guitar.
Ok, now I'm really off-topic =)
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
Chuckk Hubbard schrieb:
Two things come to me right away. One of the things Bach did was to start using certain notes that implied a key change before there was any indication of momentum towards a key change. It's easy to work a Bb into a theme in C without giving too much away. Then when it happens, the change sounds like it fulfilled some subtle destiny. I have *no idea* how you could do this with Pd.
if you use Bb in C, it is another chord, C7 (C - C7 - F)
You can get away with a lot of little borrowed progressions with jazz. Any chord whatsoever can be preceded by a dominant 7th, or a tritone sub for a dominant 7th, and that in turn can be preceded by a minor 7th, or a tritone sub for that, and so on. You could actually have lots of momentary forays that would end up returning to the original key.
If you have a 4-bar period, and just just use a II-V-I progression like |Dm7 |G7 |Cmaj7|(Cmaj7)| (|Xy| = one bar) these harmonies can be substituted in many ways, like |D7|Db7|C6| or |D7 - Ab7|G7 - Db7|C| with two changes per bar. OTOH the other hand you could use substitutions for major harmonies by their parallel minor harmonies |Dm|Em|Am| and of course also the other way round |F7|B7|C|. some harmonies are weaker, some are stronger, so define, at which time you want to have stronger changes in harmony and when there should be little changes. then have other progressions, styles, tastes... m.
On 8/13/06, Marius Schebella marius.schebella@chello.at wrote:
Chuckk Hubbard schrieb:
Two things come to me right away. One of the things Bach did was to start using certain notes that implied a key change before there was any indication of momentum towards a key change. It's easy to work a Bb into a theme in C without giving too much away. Then when it happens, the change sounds like it fulfilled some subtle destiny. I have *no idea* how you could do this with Pd.
if you use Bb in C, it is another chord, C7 (C - C7 - F)
I have no idea how to make a patch that would insert pivot tones somewhat randomly. I like the neural net idea, where it just learns certain things according to how well a user likes them, but I have no more clue how to make that than the other. Could it be made to notice similarities it wasn't specifically told to notice?
You can get away with a lot of little borrowed progressions with jazz. Any chord whatsoever can be preceded by a dominant 7th, or a tritone sub for a dominant 7th, and that in turn can be preceded by a minor 7th, or a tritone sub for that, and so on. You could actually have lots of momentary forays that would end up returning to the original key.
If you have a 4-bar period, and just just use a II-V-I progression like |Dm7 |G7 |Cmaj7|(Cmaj7)| (|Xy| = one bar) these harmonies can be substituted in many ways, like |D7|Db7|C6| or |D7 - Ab7|G7 - Db7|C| with two changes per bar. OTOH the other hand you could use substitutions for major harmonies by their parallel minor harmonies |Dm|Em|Am| and of course also the other way round |F7|B7|C|. some harmonies are weaker, some are stronger, so define, at which time you want to have stronger changes in harmony and when there should be little changes. then have other progressions, styles, tastes... m.
Of course, if all movement is by fifths and seconds, it will defeat the original purpose, which was to make music that was less predictable. I think there'd have to be some movement by thirds, and just plain using chords that aren't in the same key. I'd actually press for extended just tuning, if I were doing it (I'm not). Damian, maybe it would be possible to simply have a melodic part that occasionally receives information about harmonic changes before the harmonic part does. I like your idea, but I think it would take quite some time to realize it. I haven't checked out the Alexandre Quessy project mentioned above. Maybe a project like this would be more for doing it than for having it, though, as so many computer music projects.
-Chuckk
Chuckk Hubbard badmuthahubbard@gmail.com a écrit :> maybe it would be possible to simply have a melodic part that
occasionally receives information about harmonic changes before the harmonic part does
In jazz music when we are accompagnating a melody, we use voices, for example a chord with four tones
eg: C E G B
could be played with three other combinations:
E G B C, G B C E, and B C E G
The highest note of the voice would be the note used in the melody. this example is one of the simpliest, we could also use the same way with thirteen chords, with seven sounds instead of four sounds, then there would have seven combinations for each chord.
In fact we can give any color we like to a melody, it just depend on what kind of mode we are using for accompagnating it.
eg: in 'Autumn Leaves' the first note is the third of the first chord, then it gives a sad color (minor third), but we can give another color with using another chord, for example we could use G7 instead of Dm:
Dm - G7 - CM7 - FM7 - Bm7b5 - E7 - Am becomes G7 - C#° - FM7 - Bb7#5 - Dm7 - Dm7M
and then the automn leaves melody would sound more 'myxolydian'.
Notice that some chords has to be modified for sounding better in that weird harmonic context.
Patco.
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On the topic of all this music theory and harmonic discussion, I realized that I need to expand my knowledge of this area. I've played piano/guitar/bassoon for some years, but never got deep into that rich area of chord theory that seems to be on topic right now.
Is there any good (and free) online resource or lesson guide (preferably interactive) that I could train myself with? I just started reading Machine Music by Robert Rowe, and this knowledge would help me follow that text as well as the current discussion.
~Kyle
On 8/13/06, patco megalegoland@yahoo.fr wrote:
Chuckk Hubbard badmuthahubbard@gmail.com a écrit :
maybe it would be possible to simply have a melodic part that occasionally receives information about harmonic changes before the harmonic part does
In jazz music when we are accompagnating a melody, we use voices, for example a chord with four tones
eg: C E G B
could be played with three other combinations:
E G B C, G B C E, and B C E G
The highest note of the voice would be the note used in the melody. this example is one of the simpliest, we could also use the same way with thirteen chords, with seven sounds instead of four sounds, then there would have seven combinations for each chord.
In fact we can give any color we like to a melody, it just depend on what kind of mode we are using for accompagnating it.
eg: in 'Autumn Leaves' the first note is the third of the first chord, then it gives a sad color (minor third), but we can give another color with using another chord, for example we could use G7 instead of Dm:
Dm - G7 - CM7 - FM7 - Bm7b5 - E7 - Am becomes G7 - C#° - FM7 - Bb7#5 - Dm7 - Dm7M
and then the automn leaves melody would sound more 'myxolydian'.
Notice that some chords has to be modified for sounding better in that weird harmonic context.
Patco.
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Hi,
Is there any good (and free) online resource or lesson guide (preferably interactive) that I could train myself with? I just started reading Machine Music by Robert Rowe, and this knowledge would help me follow that text as well as the current discussion.
Most of great jazzmen has got their knowledge from jams in jazz clubs.
Also, Jamey Aebersold has made records for practicing jazz turnarounds and standards, and the greatest musicians are playing into these records.
Patco.
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I don't really know any good references offhand. My degree is going to actually be in "jazz composition," but I've never written jazz, lol, and I didn't retain much from those classes (only due to a criminally lazy teacher). Jamie Aebersold is a standard; I know jazzheads who curse his name, but these same people have spent a lot of time learning to play the changes regardless. You'll also never run out of Aebersold CDs. For some strange reason I can find no Wikipedia page devoted to jazz theory. I guess the experts are all too busy smoking reefer and running with fast women! Hmph!
-Chuckk
On 8/13/06, Kyle Klipowicz kyleklip@gmail.com wrote:
On the topic of all this music theory and harmonic discussion, I realized that I need to expand my knowledge of this area. I've played piano/guitar/bassoon for some years, but never got deep into that rich area of chord theory that seems to be on topic right now.
Is there any good (and free) online resource or lesson guide (preferably interactive) that I could train myself with? I just started reading Machine Music by Robert Rowe, and this knowledge would help me follow that text as well as the current discussion.
~Kyle
On 8/13/06, patco megalegoland@yahoo.fr wrote:
Chuckk Hubbard badmuthahubbard@gmail.com a écrit :
maybe it would be possible to simply have a melodic part that occasionally receives information about harmonic changes before the harmonic part does
In jazz music when we are accompagnating a melody, we use voices, for example a chord with four tones
eg: C E G B
could be played with three other combinations:
E G B C, G B C E, and B C E G
The highest note of the voice would be the note used in the melody. this example is one of the simpliest, we could also use the same way with thirteen chords, with seven sounds instead of four sounds, then there would have seven combinations for each chord.
In fact we can give any color we like to a melody, it just depend on what kind of mode we are using for accompagnating it.
eg: in 'Autumn Leaves' the first note is the third of the first chord, then it gives a sad color (minor third), but we can give another color with using another chord, for example we could use G7 instead of Dm:
Dm - G7 - CM7 - FM7 - Bm7b5 - E7 - Am becomes G7 - C#° - FM7 - Bb7#5 - Dm7 - Dm7M
and then the automn leaves melody would sound more 'myxolydian'.
Notice that some chords has to be modified for sounding better in that weird harmonic context.
Patco.
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I recommend "The Jazz Piano Book" by Mark Levine. Even though it's a piano book, it is really as much an applied theory book. I read this about 15 years ago, and it was great in presenting material I already knew in a logical, concise way, and also in presenting some interesting new material.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0961470151/002-6698441-6121652?v=glance&...
This guy also has a book strictly on jazz theory, I haven't read it but I assume it's also good.
Basically, I need to make the disclaimer that theory is a trap in jazz. Intuitive things tend to occur within improvisations, that theorists are only beginning to understand. Also, bear in mind that the theory people have discussed so far, would be of limited help in dissecting most jazz in the last 50 years - such as a typical performance by the classic John Coltrane Quartet. So if you aren't writing a thesis on the theory, you really need to spend much more time listening to records and trying to see if you can imitate what you hear; Especially important to remember is that a lot of jazz is essentially polytonal - i.e. due to substitutions, the bass, piano, and horn player may for some spaces each be playing on DIFFERENT sets of changes!
To get back to PD: An AI interface that allowed for this would be far more interesting than one that had all parts always performing identical harmonies... The basic idea is that certain key points are convergence points, such as the I chord at the top of the form - but in between each instrument might veer off into their own interpretation of the harmony. Such an approach sometimes works better with no piano player plunking out chords
- but some piano players are more flexible than others.
~David
On 8/13/06, Chuckk Hubbard badmuthahubbard@gmail.com wrote:
I don't really know any good references offhand. My degree is going to actually be in "jazz composition," but I've never written jazz, lol, and I didn't retain much from those classes (only due to a criminally lazy teacher). Jamie Aebersold is a standard; I know jazzheads who curse his name, but these same people have spent a lot of time learning to play the changes regardless. You'll also never run out of Aebersold CDs. For some strange reason I can find no Wikipedia page devoted to jazz theory. I guess the experts are all too busy smoking reefer and running with fast women! Hmph!
-Chuckk
On 8/13/06, Kyle Klipowicz kyleklip@gmail.com wrote:
On the topic of all this music theory and harmonic discussion, I realized that I need to expand my knowledge of this area. I've played piano/guitar/bassoon for some years, but never got deep into that rich area of chord theory that seems to be on topic right now.
Is there any good (and free) online resource or lesson guide (preferably interactive) that I could train myself with? I just started reading Machine Music by Robert Rowe, and this knowledge would help me follow that text as well as the current discussion.
~Kyle
On 8/13/06, patco megalegoland@yahoo.fr wrote:
Chuckk Hubbard badmuthahubbard@gmail.com a écrit :
maybe it would be possible to simply have a melodic part that occasionally receives information about harmonic changes before the harmonic part does
In jazz music when we are accompagnating a melody, we use voices, for example a chord with four tones
eg: C E G B
could be played with three other combinations:
E G B C, G B C E, and B C E G
The highest note of the voice would be the note used in the melody. this example is one of the simpliest, we could also use the same way with thirteen chords, with seven sounds instead of four sounds, then there would have seven combinations for each chord.
In fact we can give any color we like to a melody, it just depend on what kind of mode we are using for accompagnating it.
eg: in 'Autumn Leaves' the first note is the third of the first
chord,
then it gives a sad color (minor third), but we can give another
color
with using another chord, for example we could use G7 instead of Dm:
Dm - G7 - CM7 - FM7 - Bm7b5 - E7 - Am becomes G7 - C#° - FM7 - Bb7#5 - Dm7 - Dm7M
and then the automn leaves melody would sound more 'myxolydian'.
Notice that some chords has to be modified for sounding better in
that
weird harmonic context.
Patco.
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On 8/14/06, David Powers cyborgk@gmail.com wrote:
I recommend "The Jazz Piano Book" by Mark Levine. Even though it's a piano book, it is really as much an applied theory book. I read this about 15 years ago, and it was great in presenting material I already knew in a logical, concise way, and also in presenting some interesting new material.
I've heard of this. That reminds me, one book I did learn a lot from was Arnold Schoenberg's 'Theory of Harmony'. He talks about some of the same things, but references Beethoven, Mahler, Wagner, and Bach at times. He does not talk about Serialism or atonal music, it's strictly based on his research of tonal music before he got into those things. A lot of the extended chords we associate with jazz were used, albeit differently, by guys like Debussy and Schoenberg before anyone tried to put them in jazz. Some jazz of the last 50 years is great, btw, but jazz before then was great too!
Chuckk Hubbard schrieb:
On 8/14/06, David Powers cyborgk@gmail.com wrote:
I recommend "The Jazz Piano Book" by Mark Levine. Even though it's a piano
me too.
was Arnold Schoenberg's 'Theory of Harmony'.
I donŽt think classical harmony is of any interest for pop music. except maybe voicings and thoughts on polyphony. What maybe is interesting with Schoenbergs theory is his work on formal structure in the book "Stil und Gedanke"/"style and idea" talking about motives, melodies, time, repetition, formal ideas. (naa, I would not recommend that really...)
Maybe more effective would be to listen to artists you like to "copy" and analyse their chords and then have a "style" in your chord progressions system like "gershwin", "beatles", "bryan adams", "bjork" with some weighings of progressions, distributions of modes...
maybe I should give this a try myself.
m.
On 8/14/06, Marius Schebella marius.schebella@chello.at wrote:
Chuckk Hubbard schrieb:
On 8/14/06, David Powers cyborgk@gmail.com wrote:
was Arnold Schoenberg's 'Theory of Harmony'.
I don´t think classical harmony is of any interest for pop music. except maybe voicings and thoughts on polyphony. What maybe is interesting with Schoenbergs theory is his work on formal structure in the book "Stil und Gedanke"/"style and idea" talking about motives, melodies, time, repetition, formal ideas. (naa, I would not recommend that really...)
I don't know, I loaned that book to my jazz pianist roommate freshman year and never got it back. He claimed to find a lot of useful stuff in it. I don't recall any tritone subs, but there was a lot of other wild stuff. Actually, if "classical" would include Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, or Schoenberg, then it was at least of interest to Gershwin (who begged some of these "classical" types to teach him). One thing I like about Schoenberg's book, as opposed to most theory handbooks, is that it offers a basic explanation of harmonics and the physics behind the major scale (before abandoning it). Such an explanation can be found easily online, but I like the idea that a music student might find value in it.
Maybe more effective would be to listen to artists you like to "copy" and analyse their chords and then have a "style" in your chord progressions system like "gershwin", "beatles", "bryan adams", "bjork" with some weighings of progressions, distributions of modes...
I was actually thinking it would be simpler just to make a patch that plays a 2-second clip of a random Beatles song when it receives a bang. Lots of variety, and I think John Lennon would strongly approve. -Chuckk
Several things I am into to make stuff like that :
- oriented graphs
- Artificial neural networks
- probability density functions (?)
- rounding notes to a list of permitted notes (like in the old muzaq)
But it is a long trip... If you want to walk along... Frankenstein is very similar to all this. I will get back into all of this in the next severals weeks, I'd say.
Is Frankenstein Linux only? It looks really useful for the type of stuff I do... ~David
On 8/14/06, Alexandre Quessy listes@sourcelibre.com wrote:
Several things I am into to make stuff like that :
- oriented graphs
- Artificial neural networks
- probability density functions (?)
- rounding notes to a list of permitted notes (like in the old muzaq)
But it is a long trip... If you want to walk along... Frankenstein is very similar to all this. I will get back into all of this in the next severals weeks, I'd say.
-- Alexandre Quessy http://alexandre.quessy.net
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On 8/14/06, David Powers cyborgk@gmail.com wrote:
Is Frankenstein Linux only? It looks really useful for the type of stuff I do... ~David
Compiles on Linux, MacX, Windoz.
On 8/13/06, patco megalegoland@yahoo.fr wrote:
In jazz music when we are accompagnating a melody, we use voices, for example a chord with four tones
eg: C E G B
could be played with three other combinations:
E G B C, G B C E, and B C E G
The highest note of the voice would be the note used in the melody. this example is one of the simpliest, we could also use the same way with thirteen chords, with seven sounds instead of four sounds, then there would have seven combinations for each chord.
In fact we can give any color we like to a melody, it just depend on what kind of mode we are using for accompagnating it.
and then the automn leaves melody would sound more 'myxolydian'.
So when you say a mixolydian feel in lydian, are you saying put a flat 7 in the melody?
I don't understand this: "we just have to insist on the pattern of the lydian arpeggio, for having a lydian sounding mixolydian, where the chord would also tend to be the fourth of the major scale with using the fifth note for the bass."
Could you give me an example? Zappa scores are hard to come by. The fifth note of what? F A C E G B is what I think of when you say a lydian arpeggio. I honestly didn't pay much attention in jazz theory class, I had a bad teacher.
Are you familiar with the "Gestalt" perception laws? That the simplest way of interpreting incoming stimuli tends to be what people perceive. This is an interesting way to look at what you're talking about. Is the simplest way to describe a harmony with letters the same as the simplest way to hear it? And of course it depends on voicing, range, and changes. I was going to link to a MIDI of Freddie Hubbard's 'Little Sunflower', but I can't get Linux to play MIDI files. Maybe you know the tune. Stacked 4ths used to outline a melody...
Thanks. -Chuckk
Hi,
Chuckk Hubbard badmuthahubbard@gmail.com a écrit :
So when you say a mixolydian feel in lydian, are you saying put a flat 7 in the melody?
The flat seventh is the triton of the major third. It makes a chord unstable, the harmony has to be resolved to the major chord one fifth upside, the melody won't end won't be resolved until this major chord is not played, that's why a flat seventh chords gives suspens in a tune.
I don't understand this: "we just have to insist on the pattern of the lydian arpeggio, for having a lydian sounding mixolydian, where the chord would also tend to be the fourth of the major scale with using the fifth note for the bass." Could you give me an example?
On a G7 playing F A B C E would make your melody sounding lydian, A C D E G, would make it sounding eolian, and so on... That's how I am thinking (I might be wrong with the term, but it gives beatiful results)
Zappa scores are hard to come by.
If you want Zappa scores, I've made plenty. (and I share this scores with anyone that is motivated to play his music).
I've made an example for showing what I've been telling about voicing, it's attached, the undocumented patch is just playing I - VI - II - V with following randomised notes, it's very basic, feel free to improve it.
Patco.
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Chuckk Hubbard a écrit :
Are you familiar with the "Gestalt" perception laws?
I've checked it, that's interesting, but I wouldn't say that I am familiar with it.
Is the simplest way to describe a harmony with letters the same as the simplest way to hear it?
For playing a standard jazz, we use a book called: The real Book. There are many volumes of 300-400 pages full of most popular jazz standards. Any jazzman would say that learning jazz is actually done through this book.
In each score there are several levels of information:
1 The chords which are wrote with letters like CM7, G7b9b5, FM7#11/G, ect ... 2 The musical score with melody, and nuances ( but nuances usually have to be deduced from the emotion of the players) 3 The structure of the tune, where parts are also called with letters, part A, part B, ... and almost every structures are like that:
A A B A
4 words of the song ...
Voicing is the best way for both following the harmony and giving the soloist and the singer the notes of the melody
Personaly, I don't think at all that full piano scores is for jazzmen, but for classical pianists that are too lazy to learn jazz.
Don't forget that jazz is a music for improvisators.
And of course it depends on voicing, range, and changes.
When I began to practice jazz with my guitar, and learned about voicing, I wanted to make a classification of every sounding voicings of every chords, like Joe Pass did in one of his book, but,
the amount of combinations is very high, just an exemple:
in the major scale we have four types of chords with four sounds using the 7th
M7, 7, m7, and m7b5
so we have 2^4 combinations of four different chords which has 4 different voicings, then we could make at least 16*4*4= 256 different chords,
and five types of chords with five sounds
M79, 79, m79, m7b9, m7b9b5
then 2^5*5*5= 78125 different chords
etc...
Obviously not all the chords are sounding good, mostly the ones where the basses has an interval lower than the fifth (and we uses to remove the fifth because this note is sounding like the fundamental)
and some chords are almost similar with other chords eg: CM7 = C E G B = Em6 = E G B C
I think that it might be possible to make a mathematical formula instead of a database of chords, but I am not good enough with math' to write a formula that would give all sounding chords in an harmonical context.
Patco.
p4.vert.ukl.yahoo.com uncompressed Mon Aug 14 20:27:01 GMT 2006
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I've been playing jazz piano for 16 years, I started at age 15 getting paid to play. Here are a set of simple rules you could use to generate harmony that would generally reflect what jazz piano players actually play on gigs.
First of all, one generally should not play the root at the bottom of the chord. This leaves the structure more open to substitions and melodic variation in the bass.
Second, a piano player does not REALLY play Cmaj7, when the changes say that, he plays some coloristic variation on that. The only notes that need to occur to define a progression, are either the 3rd and 7th, or 3rd and 6th. All others are open to variation.
With those in mind, here are some typical chords:
[Cmaj7] E G B E A B E A D E G B D E G A D E F# B
[Cmin7] Eb G Bb Eb Bb D Eb A D Eb F Bb Eb G Bb D Eb G A D Eb F Bb D
[C7] E Bb D E F# Bb Bb E A E G Bb D E F# Bb D E A Bb D F# A Bb D (no 3rd) F A Bb D (a C7sus, which can be substituted often)
[...if the C7 functions as a V7, then it will probably be altered, b13, #9 or b9, as below...] E Bb D# E Bb Db E F# Bb Db E G Bb Db E A Bb Db E A Bb D# E Ab Bb D# E Ab Bb Db F A Bb Db (C7susb9, another substition that will have more tension than ordinary C7)
And that is about it for the normal arsenal of chords, excepting quartal and So What chords, and a few other tricks that are more about superimposing harmony then playing the harmony as given.
This info would give pretty realistic modern voicings, when combined with some idea of voicing - not voice leading per se, but avoiding big jumps between chord voicings. Hope this info is helpful, I don't want to clog up PD list with too much of this kind of thing...
~David
On 8/14/06, Patco megalegoland@yahoo.fr wrote:
Chuckk Hubbard a écrit :
Are you familiar with the "Gestalt" perception laws?
I've checked it, that's interesting, but I wouldn't say that I am familiar with it.
Is the simplest way to describe a harmony with letters the same as the simplest way to hear it?
For playing a standard jazz, we use a book called: The real Book. There are many volumes of 300-400 pages full of most popular jazz standards. Any jazzman would say that learning jazz is actually done through this book.
In each score there are several levels of information:
1 The chords which are wrote with letters like CM7, G7b9b5, FM7#11/G, ect ... 2 The musical score with melody, and nuances ( but nuances usually have to be deduced from the emotion of the players) 3 The structure of the tune, where parts are also called with letters, part A, part B, ... and almost every structures are like that:
A A B A
4 words of the song ...
Voicing is the best way for both following the harmony and giving the soloist and the singer the notes of the melody
Personaly, I don't think at all that full piano scores is for jazzmen, but for classical pianists that are too lazy to learn jazz.
Don't forget that jazz is a music for improvisators.
And of course it depends on voicing, range, and changes.
When I began to practice jazz with my guitar, and learned about voicing, I wanted to make a classification of every sounding voicings of every chords, like Joe Pass did in one of his book, but,
the amount of combinations is very high, just an exemple:
in the major scale we have four types of chords with four sounds using the 7th
M7, 7, m7, and m7b5
so we have 2^4 combinations of four different chords which has 4 different voicings, then we could make at least 16*4*4= 256 different chords,
and five types of chords with five sounds
M79, 79, m79, m7b9, m7b9b5
then 2^5*5*5= 78125 different chords
etc...
Obviously not all the chords are sounding good, mostly the ones where the basses has an interval lower than the fifth (and we uses to remove the fifth because this note is sounding like the fundamental)
and some chords are almost similar with other chords eg: CM7 = C E G B = Em6 = E G B C
I think that it might be possible to make a mathematical formula instead of a database of chords, but I am not good enough with math' to write a formula that would give all sounding chords in an harmonical context.
Patco.
p4.vert.ukl.yahoo.com uncompressed Mon Aug 14 20:27:01 GMT 2006
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On 8/14/06, David Powers cyborgk@gmail.com wrote:
This info would give pretty realistic modern voicings, when combined with some idea of voicing - not voice leading per se, but avoiding big jumps between chord voicings. Hope this info is helpful, I don't want to clog up PD list with too much of this kind of thing...
I would be interested in using a pd-music mailing list. Would you guys appreciate that ? There, we could discuss anything we want on these topics. Also, some wiki pages in a (plone-ish) portal could be great. I also thought of a set of PD patches for interactive learning of the musical theory. Good idea, no ?!
Otherwise, we should write a page for places to look on the net for theoretical music and algorythms.
By the way, maybe we should avoid putting a general interest wiki page under a user's namespace. And, while I am into it, it would be nice to use something else than Plone (faster ?) like MoinMoin or Drupal or such. Maybe a Drupal at http://patchr.puredata.info/ for patches and a MoinMoin at http://wiki.puredata.info/ as a powerful wiki. Also, a faster server would help... but maybe it is just Plone that is so slow.
Alexandre Quessy a écrit :
I would be interested in using a pd-music mailing list. Would you guys appreciate that ?
Yeah!
I also thought of a set of PD patches for interactive learning of the musical theory. Good idea, no ?!
Very good idea, but as long as it is related to PD, why this set of patches/externals wouldn't be a part of pd tutorials, and/or documentation?
p4.vert.ukl.yahoo.com uncompressed Mon Aug 14 23:27:00 GMT 2006
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On 8/14/06, Patco megalegoland@yahoo.fr wrote:
I also thought of a set of PD patches for interactive learning of the musical theory. Good idea, no ?!
Very good idea, but as long as it is related to PD, why this set of patches/externals wouldn't be a part of pd tutorials, and/or documentation?
Of course it would either be part of the PD documentation, or the pddp. I don't quite know much about pddp, but...
Well, it would be related to PD, because it would use it, but the main focus would be musical theory. Scale, chords, MIDI notes, temperaments... But maybe a few abstractions and externals in the best way to go, so that it is highly reusable. You know, -help patches are great for learning too.
On Mon, Aug 14, 2006 at 07:58:32PM -0400, Alexandre Quessy wrote:
On 8/14/06, David Powers cyborgk@gmail.com wrote:
This info would give pretty realistic modern voicings, when combined with some idea of voicing - not voice leading per se, but avoiding big jumps between chord voicings. Hope this info is helpful, I don't want to clog up PD list with too much of this kind of thing...
I would be interested in using a pd-music mailing list. Would you guys appreciate that ?
That would be cool, maybe IOHannes would add a pd-music list to the collection stored at iem?
Best,
Chris.
chris@mccormick.cx http://mccormick.cx
On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:58:32 -0400 "Alexandre Quessy" listes@sourcelibre.com wrote:
On 8/14/06, David Powers cyborgk@gmail.com wrote:
This info would give pretty realistic modern voicings, when combined with some idea of voicing - not voice leading per se, but avoiding big jumps between chord voicings. Hope this info is helpful, I don't want to clog up PD list with too much of this kind of thing...
I would be interested in using a pd-music mailing list. Would you guys appreciate that ? There, we could discuss anything we want on these topics.
No, I quite disagree, imho the recent topics here have been spot on and in no way inappropriate. Keeping a good cross breeding of ideas between software use, theory, maths and musical practice is great and I'd hate to see that split up. I can see the point of pd-dev, I'm lurking and listening all the time to glean new knowlege about the development and internals. And pd-announce seems to have value for general spamming and event discussion, but I'd like to see the practitioners stay here. Imo, hold the pd-music idea back until such time as the traffic ever gets too heavy or anybody expresses a serious grumble with traffic they feel is OT.
Also, some wiki pages in a (plone-ish) portal could be great. I also thought of a set of PD patches for interactive learning of the musical theory. Good idea, no ?!
Very good idea. I'd think Pd would an excellent vehicle to teach music theory, count me as a first student/guinea pig.
Otherwise, we should write a page for places to look on the net for theoretical music and algorythms.
That too. I've been collecting links and documents on composition lately, and mathematical stuff relating to interesting sequences and geometry, generally more musical stuff than my regular sound effects synthesis and I'd love to share and mix up with more of that. As long as it crosses into Pd. And I'd like to see more good tuts and discussion on integrating Pd into wider environments, explanations by people using it with Csound, CLM, GeoMaestro, Ardour, or even, heaven forbid, MIDI.
By the way, maybe we should avoid putting a general interest wiki page under a user's namespace. And, while I am into it, it would be nice to use something else than Plone (faster ?) like MoinMoin or Drupal or such. Maybe a Drupal at http://patchr.puredata.info/ for patches and a MoinMoin at http://wiki.puredata.info/ as a powerful wiki. Also, a faster server would help... but maybe it is just Plone that is so slow.
I don't see any problem with the speed of the pureda.info server. But I have spoken my mind to others that I think it's underused, poorly maintained and a bit clinical and dull as a resource. I'd like to see it tarted up, a bit more razz and pop! Patch of the week! Celebrity gossip! :)
Andy
-- Alexandre Quessy http://alexandre.quessy.net
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On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
So when you say a mixolydian feel in lydian, are you saying put a flat 7 in the melody?
IMHO, a lydian is a backwards mixolydian in the sense that they're both on either side of the ionian mode, if you map the ecclesiastic modes on the circle of fifths: F:lydian, C:ionian, G:mixolydian... if you remove VII from ionian, it may as well be mixolydian, and likewise, if you remove IV from lydian, it may as well be ionian. Any pair of adjacent modes on the circle of fifths are only different by one degree, and which degree it is also follows the circle of fifths: IV and VII are a fifth apart.
If you leave a degree out in a lydian, you can make it sound like it's a ionian, and then the real ionian next to it would immediately sound like it's mixolydian, right?
Else, I have no clue how lydian and mixolydian are related.
I don't understand music.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
Mathieu Bouchard a écrit :
Else, I have no clue how lydian and mixolydian are related.
I don't understand music.
Hi, You might be interested by this article that is trying to explain greek modes (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, ect...) with their cultural context:
http://www.pathguy.com/modes.htm
P
p5.vert.ukl.yahoo.com uncompressed Tue Aug 15 07:27:01 GMT 2006
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On 8/15/06, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
Else, I have no clue how lydian and mixolydian are related.
I don't understand music.
All seven modes follow the exact same spacing between degrees. There is a convention using bows and circumflex accents for respectively tones and semi-tones. Let say here I will use _ and ^. The ionian scale is the major scale :
_ _ ^ _ _ _ ^ All other modes are just the same intervals starting at an other point. Lydian : _ _ _ ^ _ _ ^ Mixolydian : _ _ ^ _ _ ^_
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, Alexandre Quessy wrote:
All seven modes follow the exact same spacing between degrees. There is a convention using bows and circumflex accents for respectively tones and semi-tones.
I prefer the digits 2 and 1, which represent the number of semitones between degrees. This is because they are more readily parseable by pd and by other computer systems.
All other modes are just the same intervals starting at an other point.
in other words, let Z denote semitone-multiple intervals, and 12Z denote octave-multiple intervals, then 12Z is an Ideal Subring of Z, so the Quotient Z/12Z is a Ring, which is the chromatic scale. Then take a subset of that chromatic scale that includes its zero (zero represents the fundamental). For example, {0,2,4,5,7,9,11}, which is made of the partial sums of the sequence (2,2,1,2,2,2,1), is the Ionian mode. A mode is a scale that contains its zero. Then define the addition of an interval and a scale: the resulting scale contains each sum of the interval with each element of the scale. The seven ecclesiastic modes appear as each of the sums of the Ionian mode and an interval that results in a mode (that is, that contains the zero).
Isn't that clearer? ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_%28mathematics%29
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
Only if you study abstract algebra (and I think that musicians are a subset of mathematicians less than the converse). :-)
~Kyle
On 8/15/06, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, Alexandre Quessy wrote:
All seven modes follow the exact same spacing between degrees. There is a convention using bows and circumflex accents for respectively tones and semi-tones.
I prefer the digits 2 and 1, which represent the number of semitones between degrees. This is because they are more readily parseable by pd and by other computer systems.
All other modes are just the same intervals starting at an other point.
in other words, let Z denote semitone-multiple intervals, and 12Z denote octave-multiple intervals, then 12Z is an Ideal Subring of Z, so the Quotient Z/12Z is a Ring, which is the chromatic scale. Then take a subset of that chromatic scale that includes its zero (zero represents the fundamental). For example, {0,2,4,5,7,9,11}, which is made of the partial sums of the sequence (2,2,1,2,2,2,1), is the Ionian mode. A mode is a scale that contains its zero. Then define the addition of an interval and a scale: the resulting scale contains each sum of the interval with each element of the scale. The seven ecclesiastic modes appear as each of the sums of the Ionian mode and an interval that results in a mode (that is, that contains the zero).
Isn't that clearer? ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_%28mathematics%29
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
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I always preferred the simple explanation that if you play only white keys on the piano in ascending order, the different modes are based upon which key you start from.
~Kyle
On 8/16/06, Kyle Klipowicz kyleklip@gmail.com wrote:
Only if you study abstract algebra (and I think that musicians are a subset of mathematicians less than the converse). :-)
~Kyle
On 8/15/06, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, Alexandre Quessy wrote:
All seven modes follow the exact same spacing between degrees. There is a convention using bows and circumflex accents for respectively tones and semi-tones.
I prefer the digits 2 and 1, which represent the number of semitones between degrees. This is because they are more readily parseable by pd and by other computer systems.
All other modes are just the same intervals starting at an other point.
in other words, let Z denote semitone-multiple intervals, and 12Z denote octave-multiple intervals, then 12Z is an Ideal Subring of Z, so the Quotient Z/12Z is a Ring, which is the chromatic scale. Then take a subset of that chromatic scale that includes its zero (zero represents the fundamental). For example, {0,2,4,5,7,9,11}, which is made of the partial sums of the sequence (2,2,1,2,2,2,1), is the Ionian mode. A mode is a scale that contains its zero. Then define the addition of an interval and a scale: the resulting scale contains each sum of the interval with each element of the scale. The seven ecclesiastic modes appear as each of the sums of the Ionian mode and an interval that results in a mode (that is, that contains the zero).
Isn't that clearer? ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_%28mathematics%29
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
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(((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())()))) (())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((()))) ))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________ _____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______ ((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO
A bit of trivia that some of you might or might not know: Anceint Greek theorists called our Ionian mode "Lydian". Their diatonic scales counted *downward* by the same intervals ours uses upward; so our Phrygian was their root-mode, so to speak; they called it Dorian. It was indeed _ _^_ _ _^ ....starting from the top.
D to D, what we call Dorian, was Phrygian... C to C, Lydian B to B, Mixolydian A to A, Hypodorian G to G, Hypophrygian F to F, Hypolydian. Crazy.
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
A bit of trivia that some of you might or might not know: Anceint Greek theorists called our Ionian mode "Lydian". Their diatonic scales counted *downward* by the same intervals ours uses upward; so our Phrygian was their root-mode, so to speak; they called it Dorian.
This is due to a transcription mistake which, like most mistakes, was perpetrated during the Middle Ages.
(Most other mistakes were perpetrated during the Bush era)
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 23:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
A bit of trivia that some of you might or might not know: Anceint Greek theorists called our Ionian mode "Lydian". Their diatonic scales counted *downward* by the same intervals ours uses upward;
Or clockwise vs anticlockwise around the octave circle?
What I found interesting below is that scale equivilences turn out to be equal areas of the polygon so decribed. Am I understanding that right? Does it make sense?
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/home/daver/Pubs/MyPDF/GeomHarm.pdf
which, like most mistakes, was perpetrated during the Middle Ages.
(Most other mistakes were perpetrated during the Bush era)
The latter being an attempt to recreate the former.
On 8/17/06, padawan12 padawan12@obiwannabe.co.uk wrote:
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 23:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
A bit of trivia that some of you might or might not know: Anceint Greek theorists called our Ionian mode "Lydian". Their diatonic scales counted *downward* by the same intervals ours uses upward;
Or clockwise vs anticlockwise around the octave circle?
Yeah looks like it. The only measurement they had available was string length, so the lowest ratio was the highest pitch. John Chalmers came up with a cool way to illustrate specific tunings of tetrachords, I wish I could reproduce it here. It's a triangle, and the distance from each corner represents the size of one of the intervals. Since the three always add up to a perfect fourth, it makes sense that changing one changes the other two. He had areas mapped out according to what genus of tetrachord it makes. Scala has a function to hear tetrachords by dragging on this map. It's pretty cool to see and hear.
What I found interesting below is that scale equivilences turn out to be equal areas of the polygon so decribed. Am I understanding that right? Does it make sense?
Seems right to me, though I don't follow everything he's saying. If this were done with just intervals there could be some that didn't match.
which, like most mistakes, was perpetrated during the Middle Ages.
(Most other mistakes were perpetrated during the Bush era)
The latter being an attempt to recreate the former.
Except I think during the Middle Ages some rulers believed in science. On the bright side, at least today if they hang you in a cage it's not out where everyone can see and make fun of you.
-Chuckk
On 8/15/06, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
IMHO, a lydian is a backwards mixolydian in the sense that they're both on either side of the ionian mode, if you map the ecclesiastic modes on the circle of fifths: F:lydian, C:ionian, G:mixolydian... if you remove VII from ionian, it may as well be mixolydian, and likewise, if you remove IV from lydian, it may as well be ionian. Any pair of adjacent modes on the circle of fifths are only different by one degree, and which degree it is also follows the circle of fifths: IV and VII are a fifth apart.
It's interesting to consider how a key comes about in the first place in regards to this. The major triad is really the only part of the major scale that's based on the harmonic series; and taking that structure from three points separated by fifths, where the middle point is to be the endplace, you get a convenient way to create tension by moving away from the tonic, while recreating that structure wherever you go (IV, V). There's no reason it should only be done with three triads separated by 3/2 ratios. Adrian Fokker wrote a book called Just Intonation that amounted to a compendium of possible ways to create similar structures, but using other harmonic intervals than the fifth, and other chords than the major triad. It's interesting, but grueling. Great ideas, but the book isn't much more than a listing.
If you leave a degree out in a lydian, you can make it sound like it's a ionian, and then the real ionian next to it would immediately sound like it's mixolydian, right?
Else, I have no clue how lydian and mixolydian are related.
I've heard of lydian-flat-7, which is like a combination of the characteristic intervals of both. I guess it's the fourth mode of the melodic minor. Never tried using it though.
I don't understand music.
I think this isn't so much music as ABC's. I find the same thing trying to learn my way around Linux. The most highly developed reason and intelligence doesn't do you any good until someone tells you how the system's set up. Music itself is something one can intuit to an extent, but the ABC's, being an artificial and external language for it, can only be understood from others.
-Chuckk
Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
I have no idea how to make a patch that would insert pivot tones somewhat randomly.
i am finding the concept of 'boredom' to be very, very programmatically fruitful lately. presumably i know (or can find out) all of the notes that are currently playing, or have been playing for the last little while. have a boredom counter that increases faster when the changes are fewer. when boredom reaches a particular threshold, pick a chord target and start inserting pivot tones... increasing the frequency as the boredom approaches the (higher) chord-switch threshold (of course, the new tones would interact with the boredom counter - oh i do love feedback :-))...
hmm. i have a centralised rhythm machine at the moment that runs constantly and bangs about 50 different sends at different periods and different phases (n, 2n, 3n, 4n, 2n-then-3n-then-3n, 3-2-3n, 3-3-2n, etc). it's attached. it's based on a book called 'Hearing in Time' by Justin London, which is wonderful and has informed my ideas about techno no end.
so have a similar thing for assigning tones -- rather than each instrument having its own tone input, instruments just listen to a master tone assigner, that has a bunch of different sends (eg t-root, t1, t2, t3, t4) for the tones in order of diminishing importance/salience to define a particular harmonic context.
inserting pivot tones would just then be a case of changing the output of eg t3 or t4 to be the pivot tone, in a controllable manner.
Hallo, Damian Stewart hat gesagt: // Damian Stewart wrote:
hmm. i have a centralised rhythm machine at the moment that runs constantly and bangs about 50 different sends at different periods and different phases (n, 2n, 3n, 4n, 2n-then-3n-then-3n, 3-2-3n, 3-3-2n, etc). it's attached. it's based on a book called 'Hearing in Time' by Justin London, which is wonderful and has informed my ideas about techno no end.
Sounds like an interesting read. (Though rather expensive, but that's how it goes...).
I played around with a related idea once. Attached patch "list-rhythm" is like a metro-counter, that can be fed with duration lists. Durations are specified as multiples of a smallest time step. Then for each duration in a list, the "list-rhythm" counts from 0 to duration-1. After that it takes the next duration and starts counting again. At the end of the duration list it wraps around and starts at the list's beginning again.
This lets you specify polyrhythms by just feeding pattern lists, e.g. "2 2 1 2 2 2 1" to play a 12-step long pattern (this is a popular african rhythm, I don't have its name atm.).
Also attached is a simple example using blips ripped from Andy's recent karaoke patch. ;)
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
Wow such a lot of stimulating musical discussion on the list this week.
On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:24:56 +1200 Damian Stewart damian@frey.co.nz wrote:
Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
I have no idea how to make a patch that would insert pivot tones somewhat randomly.
i am finding the concept of 'boredom' to be very, very programmatically fruitful lately. presumably i know (or can find out) all of the notes that are currently playing, or have been playing for the last little while. have a boredom counter that increases faster when the changes are fewer. when boredom reaches a particular threshold, pick a chord target and start inserting pivot tones... increasing the frequency as the boredom approaches the (higher) chord-switch threshold (of course, the new tones would interact with the boredom counter - oh i do love feedback :-))...
If things start to get too chaotic or unstable at longer scales you could always feed-forward, in other words not include your new pivot notes in the analysis until the change occurs.
hmm. i have a centralised rhythm machine at the moment that runs constantly and bangs about 50 different sends at different periods and different phases (n, 2n, 3n, 4n, 2n-then-3n-then-3n, 3-2-3n, 3-3-2n, etc). it's attached. it's based on a book called 'Hearing in Time' by Justin London, which is wonderful and has informed my ideas about techno no end.
so have a similar thing for assigning tones -- rather than each instrument having its own tone input, instruments just listen to a master tone assigner, that has a bunch of different sends (eg t-root, t1, t2, t3, t4) for the tones in order of diminishing importance/salience to define a particular harmonic context.
Sounds great. I've been playing with some similar ideas in composing lately. The idea of departing from instruments strictly following a score and putting some "intelligence" into instruments or groups of instruments seems good. A while back I was trying to get a tune based on a "rythmn section" and a 'brass section". The rythmn section was the drummer, and the bass, with the bass following a "busyness" parameter and a "dynamics" parameter. The problem is, generally with realtime dataflows like puredata, that you have no look-ahead possibilty. Like the problem of predicting duration for tied notes when your score is generative. Every function you use to derive a parameter is necessarily following along behind what has already happened.
I thought about it two ways. Either you want to keep a buffer of one or two bars and fill that first, in which case you kind of defaulted back to just following a dynamic score. Or you imbue your "players" with some kind of anticipation. Say we are in bar N and bar N-3 was was a busy cadence and bars N-2 ans N-1 were straight then assume we are playing in 4/4 and get ready to end the bar conclusively. This a kind of musical autocorrelation. I got into a bit of a mess programming that but I must have another try again soon. Thanks for the multi phase bang box , will play with that later.
Andy
f r e y live music with machines http://www.frey.co.nz
you may want to check a couple of externals I made together with David Casal:
[chords_memory] and [harmonizer]
[chords_memory] takes as input chords names (as given from the [chord] external from maxlib) and is able to learn your style while you play. when you have trained it a bit you can ask for chords sequences in your style. it stores the probabilities of transitions between chords in the current tonality in a weightened graph.
for example if you train it with this sequence: in the C major tonality, C maj, D min, G 7th, C maj, F maj, C maj, F maj, G maj, C maj you can then set the current chord to C maj and ask for a next chord with a high probability and it will tell you F maj, if you ask for a lower probability it will tell you D min. you can change tonality. you can also store the graph in a file for later usage.
[harmonizer] creates voicing for you: given the current chord and the current voices in MIDI values it attempts to create a nice voicing to a target chord. you can set some parameter like how much you like parallelisms, etc.. it can handle as many voices as needed but you must tell it the number of voices at creation time (as the first argument). it uses genetic algorithm but i noticed that the optimal solution is found at the first generation.
they are in CVS in /externals/frankenstein
i'm sorry i didn't wrote any help patch yet (no time so far), if you are interested ask me for more details and i'll be happy to help
ciao, davide.
-----Messaggio originale----- Da: pd-list-bounces@iem.at [mailto:pd-list-bounces@iem.at] Per conto di Damian Stewart Inviato: venerdì 11 agosto 2006 7.15 A: PD-List Oggetto: [PD] pd-based procedural chord progression database..
hey everyone
i'm setting out to build an automatic chord progression system - you tell it to start in C Major, centre around E minor, with a given deviance factor, and then bang it repeatedly and it spits out a new chord/voicing each time you bang it, that makes harmonic sense and sounds good as a progression.
(why? it struck me while i was listening to my friend's set the other night that too much dance- or dance-derived music is harmonically static. simple solution: make a quasi-intelligent system that knows what progressions sound good, and get it to do all the work. imagining coupling it up to fiddle~ and a vocalist..)
based on jazz harmony theory, which i have had the tiniest of nosies into, this will involve encoding knowledge about all twelve scales, major and minor, as well as the modes and relationships between them. before i start, is there anything i should look at that might help, or solve the problem for me, or make the whole idea irrelevant?
cheers d
-- f r e y live music with machines http://www.frey.co.nz
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