I've managed to hurt my ears twice over the past two days when using PD w/ headphones. Even at lowest system volumes, it seems that Terrible Things can happen. Are there any precautions that I can take to make it feel less like I'm taking my life into my hands when I have to use headphones?
On 23/08/11 03:29 PM, Stephen Lavelle wrote:
I've managed to hurt my ears twice over the past two days when using PD w/ headphones. Even at lowest system volumes, it seems that Terrible Things can happen. Are there any precautions that I can take to make it feel less like I'm taking my life into my hands when I have to use headphones?
Try making a [noise~] connected directly to a [dac~] and set the headphone volume so you can live with that. Nothing will ever be louder than that.
Martin
2011/8/23 Martin martin.peach@sympatico.ca
On 23/08/11 03:29 PM, Stephen Lavelle wrote:
I've managed to hurt my ears twice over the past two days when using PD w/ headphones. Even at lowest system volumes, it seems that Terrible Things can happen. Are there any precautions that I can take to make it feel less like I'm taking my life into my hands when I have to use headphones?
Try making a [noise~] connected directly to a [dac~] and set the headphone volume so you can live with that. Nothing will ever be louder than that.
Martin
[osc~ 5555] may not be louder than [noise~], but definitely more painful...no?
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Do you mean: [osc~ some-frequency] | [*~ 5555] ?
From: tim vets timvets@gmail.com To: Martin martin.peach@sympatico.ca Cc: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 6:13 PM Subject: Re: [PD] making puredata headphone-safe
2011/8/23 Martin martin.peach@sympatico.ca
On 23/08/11 03:29 PM, Stephen Lavelle wrote:
I've managed to hurt my ears twice over the past two days when using PD w/ headphones. Even at lowest system volumes, it seems that Terrible Things can happen. Are there any precautions that I can take to make it feel less like I'm taking my life into my hands when I have to use headphones?
Try making a [noise~] connected directly to a [dac~] and set the headphone volume so you can live with that. Nothing will ever be louder than that.
Martin
[osc~ 5555] may not be louder than [noise~], but definitely more painful...no?
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On 2011-08-23 18:25, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
Do you mean: [osc~ some-frequency] | [*~ 5555]
?
I don't think so. 5555Hz is around dentist drill frequency, so it hurts ;). Your dac can never go above one no matter what you feed it, while the perceived loudness of a loud sound varies according to its harmonic content. So I guess it's somewhat subjective what sound source gives the loudest apparent output. An [osc~] multiplied by 5555 will sound louder but it won't actually be louder than an osc multiplied by one (the amplitude at the output will still be between 1 and -1). The idea is to set the master volume so that the loudest sound you can make will not break anything, whether speakers or ears or inner peace. The easiest way to do that is to play the loudest sound first and adjust the volume so that it's loud but not too loud. Then everything else you do will be quieter than that.
Martin
------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:* tim vets <timvets@gmail.com> *To:* Martin <martin.peach@sympatico.ca> *Cc:* pd-list@iem.at *Sent:* Tuesday, August 23, 2011 6:13 PM *Subject:* Re: [PD] making puredata headphone-safe 2011/8/23 Martin <martin.peach@sympatico.ca <mailto:martin.peach@sympatico.ca>> On 23/08/11 03:29 PM, Stephen Lavelle wrote: I've managed to hurt my ears twice over the past two days when using PD w/ headphones. Even at lowest system volumes, it seems that Terrible Things can happen. Are there any precautions that I can take to make it feel less like I'm taking my life into my hands when I have to use headphones? Try making a [noise~] connected directly to a [dac~] and set the headphone volume so you can live with that. Nothing will ever be louder than that. Martin [osc~ 5555] may not be louder than [noise~], but definitely more painful...no? _________________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at <mailto:Pd-list@iem.at> mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/__listinfo/pd-list <http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list> _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at <mailto:Pd-list@iem.at> mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
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I hate dentist drills. I second that.
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 11:48 PM, Martin Peach martin.peach@sympatico.cawrote:
On 2011-08-23 18:25, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
Do you mean: [osc~ some-frequency] | [*~ 5555]
?
I don't think so. 5555Hz is around dentist drill frequency, so it hurts ;). Your dac can never go above one no matter what you feed it, while the perceived loudness of a loud sound varies according to its harmonic content. So I guess it's somewhat subjective what sound source gives the loudest apparent output. An [osc~] multiplied by 5555 will sound louder but it won't actually be louder than an osc multiplied by one (the amplitude at the output will still be between 1 and -1). The idea is to set the master volume so that the loudest sound you can make will not break anything, whether speakers or ears or inner peace. The easiest way to do that is to play the loudest sound first and adjust the volume so that it's loud but not too loud. Then everything else you do will be quieter than that.
Martin
------------------------------**------------------------------**
*From:* tim vets timvets@gmail.com
*To:* Martin martin.peach@sympatico.ca *Cc:* pd-list@iem.at *Sent:* Tuesday, August 23, 2011 6:13 PM *Subject:* Re: [PD] making puredata headphone-safe
2011/8/23 Martin <martin.peach@sympatico.ca <mailto:martin.peach@**sympatico.ca martin.peach@sympatico.ca>>
On 23/08/11 03:29 PM, Stephen Lavelle wrote: I've managed to hurt my ears twice over the past two days when using PD w/ headphones. Even at lowest system volumes, it seems that Terrible Things can happen. Are there any precautions that I can take to make it feel less like I'm taking my life into my hands when I have to use headphones? Try making a [noise~] connected directly to a [dac~] and set the headphone volume so you can live with that. Nothing will ever be louder than that. Martin[osc~ 5555] may not be louder than [noise~], but definitely more painful...no?
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Doesn't hurt here*. I guess we're getting into a subjective realm-- but if someone adjusts their master volume for [osc~ 5555]---[dac~] to be as loud as possible without being uncomfortable, I have a hard time believing that they would be comfortable with [noise~]---[*~ 999999]--[clip~ -1 1]--[dac~] at that same master level.
-Jonathan
- I adjusted my master volume so that the clipped noise was at a tolerable volume, then checked [osc~ 5555]--[dac~] at that same level.
From: Martin Peach martin.peach@sympatico.ca To: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: tim vets timvets@gmail.com; "pd-list@iem.at" pd-list@iem.at Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 6:48 PM Subject: Re: [PD] making puredata headphone-safe
On 2011-08-23 18:25, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
Do you mean: [osc~ some-frequency] | [*~ 5555]
?
I don't think so. 5555Hz is around dentist drill frequency, so it hurts ;). Your dac can never go above one no matter what you feed it, while the perceived loudness of a loud sound varies according to its harmonic content. So I guess it's somewhat subjective what sound source gives the loudest apparent output. An [osc~] multiplied by 5555 will sound louder but it won't actually be louder than an osc multiplied by one (the amplitude at the output will still be between 1 and -1). The idea is to set the master volume so that the loudest sound you can make will not break anything, whether speakers or ears or inner peace. The easiest way to do that is to play the loudest sound first and adjust the volume so that it's loud but not too loud. Then everything else you do will be quieter than that.
Martin
------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:* tim vets timvets@gmail.com *To:* Martin martin.peach@sympatico.ca *Cc:* pd-list@iem.at *Sent:* Tuesday, August 23, 2011 6:13 PM *Subject:* Re: [PD] making puredata headphone-safe
2011/8/23 Martin <martin.peach@sympatico.ca mailto:martin.peach@sympatico.ca>
On 23/08/11 03:29 PM, Stephen Lavelle wrote:
I've managed to hurt my ears twice over the past two days when using PD w/ headphones. Even at lowest system volumes, it seems that Terrible Things can happen. Are there any precautions that I can take to make it feel less like I'm taking my life into my hands when I have to use headphones?
Try making a [noise~] connected directly to a [dac~] and set the headphone volume so you can live with that. Nothing will ever be louder than that.
Martin
[osc~ 5555] may not be louder than [noise~], but definitely more painful...no?
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On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 06:48:05PM -0400, Martin Peach wrote:
An [osc~] multiplied by 5555 will sound louder
but it won't actually be louder than an osc multiplied by one (the
amplitude at the output will still be between 1 and -1).
I think it actually depends on your sound card whether or not this is true with Pd. I might be mistaken but I am pretty sure some sound cards will let you output abs(x) > 1. Hmmm actually this doesn't make sense to me if the driver is accepting a 16 bit signed int. Can someone confirm whether this is the case?
Incidentally, if I recall correctly, Miller told me that he uses a set of small, cheap speakers when doing experimental stuff so as to save ear damage. At least I think it was Miller.
My own ears are a lost cause after years of punk gigs so I don't have this problem.
Cheers,
Chris.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2011-08-24 02:33, Chris McCormick wrote:
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 06:48:05PM -0400, Martin Peach wrote:
An [osc~] multiplied by 5555 will sound louder
but it won't actually be louder than an osc multiplied by one (the
amplitude at the output will still be between 1 and -1).I think it actually depends on your sound card whether or not this is true with Pd. I might be mistaken but I am pretty sure some sound cards will let you output abs(x) > 1. Hmmm actually this doesn't make sense to me if the driver is accepting a 16 bit signed int. Can someone confirm whether this is the case?
finally someone!
to clarify: imho, you should never! assume that [dac~] is equivalent to [clip~ -1 1] -> [dac~]
whether or not your output signal will be clipped to -1..+1 is entirely depending on your "sound infrastructure" (i'm mainly talking about software here; depending on whether you use "portaudio", "mmio", "alsa", "jack" and whatnot, your signal might be "converted" to some fixed point format (mostly 16bit signed integers) or a floating point format just before it leaves Pd. in the former case, you will eventually experience clipping. in the latter case less so.
after that, it is up to your "sound infrastructure" what to do with the signal, and it might well boost it or clip it or whatever, before it delivers to the hardware, which again might speak whatever format (e.g. 16bit unsigned int) that might impose clipping.
finally, your signal might get clipped at a number of places will eventually get "clipped" (or distorted similarily) by your amplifiers and/or your speakers.
if you do get clipping, then [osc~ 440] -> [*~ 440] will usually sound more annoying (and louder) than a "loud 440Hz tone", as you get plenty of harmonics.
Incidentally, if I recall correctly, Miller told me that he uses a set of small, cheap speakers when doing experimental stuff so as to save ear damage. At least I think it was Miller.
for what it is wort, we have a huge red button labeld "panic" that allows to mute all the 24 speakers in our CUBE, just in case your patch goes havoc and you have innocent audience in the room.
fgmasdr IOhannes
On Aug 23, 2011, at 3:43 PM, Martin wrote:
On 23/08/11 03:29 PM, Stephen Lavelle wrote:
I've managed to hurt my ears twice over the past two days when
using PD w/ headphones. Even at lowest system volumes, it seems
that Terrible Things can happen. Are there any precautions that I
can take to make it feel less like I'm taking my life into my hands
when I have to use headphones?Try making a [noise~] connected directly to a [dac~] and set the
headphone volume so you can live with that. Nothing will ever be
louder than that.
Hmm, I don't think that's actually true in all cases. On a MacBook
Pro running Mac OS X, I've had the volume set to one above mute, but
had massive feedback from LPC patches that were very very loud.
[noise~] would be very comfortable at that volume setting. I think
some platforms do the output mixing in the digital domain, so my min
volume would be [*~ 0.01], so that this would still make a very loud
sound:
[noise~] | [*~ 999999] | [*~ 0.01] (i.e. the Apple output mixing) |
In this particular case, the sound output actually gets shutdown
entirely, so you have to reboot to get sound output again.
.hc
I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during
that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big
Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. - General Smedley Butler
On 2011-08-29 11:52, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Aug 23, 2011, at 3:43 PM, Martin wrote:
On 23/08/11 03:29 PM, Stephen Lavelle wrote:
I've managed to hurt my ears twice over the past two days when using PD w/ headphones. Even at lowest system volumes, it seems that Terrible Things can happen. Are there any precautions that I can take to make it feel less like I'm taking my life into my hands when I have to use headphones?
Try making a [noise~] connected directly to a [dac~] and set the headphone volume so you can live with that. Nothing will ever be louder than that.
Hmm, I don't think that's actually true in all cases. On a MacBook Pro running Mac OS X, I've had the volume set to one above mute, but had massive feedback from LPC patches that were very very loud. [noise~] would be very comfortable at that volume setting. I think some platforms do the output mixing in the digital domain, so my min volume would be [*~ 0.01], so that this would still make a very loud sound:
[noise~] | [*~ 999999] | [*~ 0.01] (i.e. the Apple output mixing) |
In this particular case, the sound output actually gets shutdown entirely, so you have to reboot to get sound output again.
That make no sense. How can you have two sounds at the same level going into a mixer that come out at different levels? Or do you mean that a squealing sound is perceived to be louder than white noise? Maybe you could demonstrate with a patch?
Martin
"If it seems like magic your assumptions are wrong." Martin Peach
On Aug 29, 2011, at 12:19 PM, Martin Peach wrote:
On 2011-08-29 11:52, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Aug 23, 2011, at 3:43 PM, Martin wrote:
On 23/08/11 03:29 PM, Stephen Lavelle wrote:
I've managed to hurt my ears twice over the past two days when
using PD w/ headphones. Even at lowest system volumes, it seems that Terrible Things can happen. Are there any precautions that I can
take to make it feel less like I'm taking my life into my hands when I have to use headphones?Try making a [noise~] connected directly to a [dac~] and set the headphone volume so you can live with that. Nothing will ever be louder than that.
Hmm, I don't think that's actually true in all cases. On a MacBook
Pro running Mac OS X, I've had the volume set to one above mute, but had massive feedback from LPC patches that were very very loud. [noise~] would be very comfortable at that volume setting. I think some
platforms do the output mixing in the digital domain, so my min volume would be [*~ 0.01], so that this would still make a very loud sound:[noise~] | [*~ 999999] | [*~ 0.01] (i.e. the Apple output mixing) |
In this particular case, the sound output actually gets shutdown entirely, so you have to reboot to get sound output again.
That make no sense. How can you have two sounds at the same level
going into a mixer that come out at different levels? Or do you mean
that a squealing sound is perceived to be louder than white noise?
Maybe you could demonstrate with a patch?Martin
"If it seems like magic your assumptions are wrong." Martin Peach
I am taking a biologist's approach here: I've observed this happening
multiple times in the wild, now I have to figure out why. Its very
reproducible, I've taken the field mice into the lab and seen them
reproduce ;) Take Ed Kelly's fun LPC cross-synth example, in ekext/
examples/lpc-cross-synthesis.pd. Put some loud samples into it and go
crazy with the parameters and... MELTDOWN! I've never heard my
computer make a louder sound... I knew that this patch has some
feedback aspect to it, so I was doing my standard practice, having the
volume very low.
.hc
Mistrust authority - promote decentralization. - the hacker ethic
On 30/08/11 00:31, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Aug 29, 2011, at 12:19 PM, Martin Peach wrote:
On 2011-08-29 11:52, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Aug 23, 2011, at 3:43 PM, Martin wrote:
On 23/08/11 03:29 PM, Stephen Lavelle wrote:
I've managed to hurt my ears twice over the past two days when using PD w/ headphones. Even at lowest system volumes, it seems that Terrible Things can happen. Are there any precautions that I can take to make it feel less like I'm taking my life into my hands when I have to use headphones?
Try making a [noise~] connected directly to a [dac~] and set the headphone volume so you can live with that. Nothing will ever be louder than that.
Hmm, I don't think that's actually true in all cases. On a MacBook Pro running Mac OS X, I've had the volume set to one above mute, but had massive feedback from LPC patches that were very very loud. [noise~] would be very comfortable at that volume setting. I think some platforms do the output mixing in the digital domain, so my min volume would be [*~ 0.01], so that this would still make a very loud sound:
[noise~] | [*~ 999999] | [*~ 0.01] (i.e. the Apple output mixing) |
In this particular case, the sound output actually gets shutdown entirely, so you have to reboot to get sound output again.
That make no sense. How can you have two sounds at the same level going into a mixer that come out at different levels? Or do you mean that a squealing sound is perceived to be louder than white noise? Maybe you could demonstrate with a patch?
Martin
"If it seems like magic your assumptions are wrong." Martin Peach
I am taking a biologist's approach here: I've observed this happening multiple times in the wild, now I have to figure out why. Its very reproducible, I've taken the field mice into the lab and seen them reproduce ;) Take Ed Kelly's fun LPC cross-synth example, in ekext/examples/lpc-cross-synthesis.pd. Put some loud samples into it and go crazy with the parameters and... MELTDOWN! I've never heard my computer make a louder sound... I knew that this patch has some feedback aspect to it, so I was doing my standard practice, having the volume very low.
Hmm - of course there is NO volume control on those headphones at all.
The volume is permanently set to full. When you turn down the level for headphones on the laptop you are only dividing the digital level (which must still be a float at this stage, given your observations) by some figure so that the DAC gets lower numbers. Then if pd is putting out much higher levels than 1 they is never clipped until after! the headphone level control. The only way to keep the volume down is a limiter, compressor or clipper in your patch before [dac~], or feed pd into a limiter via jack before the headphones get it.
Simon
On Mon, 2011-08-29 at 12:19 -0400, Martin Peach wrote:
On 2011-08-29 11:52, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Aug 23, 2011, at 3:43 PM, Martin wrote:
On 23/08/11 03:29 PM, Stephen Lavelle wrote:
I've managed to hurt my ears twice over the past two days when using PD w/ headphones. Even at lowest system volumes, it seems that Terrible Things can happen. Are there any precautions that I can take to make it feel less like I'm taking my life into my hands when I have to use headphones?
Try making a [noise~] connected directly to a [dac~] and set the headphone volume so you can live with that. Nothing will ever be louder than that.
Hmm, I don't think that's actually true in all cases. On a MacBook Pro running Mac OS X, I've had the volume set to one above mute, but had massive feedback from LPC patches that were very very loud. [noise~] would be very comfortable at that volume setting. I think some platforms do the output mixing in the digital domain, so my min volume would be [*~ 0.01], so that this would still make a very loud sound:
[noise~] | [*~ 999999] | [*~ 0.01] (i.e. the Apple output mixing) |
In this particular case, the sound output actually gets shutdown entirely, so you have to reboot to get sound output again.
That make no sense. How can you have two sounds at the same level going into a mixer that come out at different levels? Or do you mean that a squealing sound is perceived to be louder than white noise? Maybe you could demonstrate with a patch?
I always had the feeling, that on OS X on MacBooks (Pro) the sound coming from the speakers is heavily processed. Audio sounds a lot 'punchier' than for example the same audio played on the same machine from Linux. I haven't had a chance to play around with it, since I don't own a MacBook, but from what Hans says, to me it sounds as the application output is not clipped to -1/1 before going to the (CoreAudio internal?) dynamics stage, but processed and limited first and only then sent to the speakers. This would also explain, why the setup Hans explained above would completely shutdown the sound output. Probably, if you wait long enough, sound would come back again, assuming that it's the limiter's release time, that becomes very long due to the very high level coming in...
just my 2¢
Roman
On Aug 31, 2011, at 8:09 AM, Roman Haefeli wrote:
On Mon, 2011-08-29 at 12:19 -0400, Martin Peach wrote:
On 2011-08-29 11:52, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Aug 23, 2011, at 3:43 PM, Martin wrote:
On 23/08/11 03:29 PM, Stephen Lavelle wrote:
I've managed to hurt my ears twice over the past two days when
using PD w/ headphones. Even at lowest system volumes, it seems that Terrible Things can happen. Are there any precautions that I can
take to make it feel less like I'm taking my life into my hands when I have to use headphones?Try making a [noise~] connected directly to a [dac~] and set the headphone volume so you can live with that. Nothing will ever be louder than that.
Hmm, I don't think that's actually true in all cases. On a MacBook
Pro running Mac OS X, I've had the volume set to one above mute, but had massive feedback from LPC patches that were very very loud. [noise~] would be very comfortable at that volume setting. I think some
platforms do the output mixing in the digital domain, so my min volume would
be [*~ 0.01], so that this would still make a very loud sound:[noise~] | [*~ 999999] | [*~ 0.01] (i.e. the Apple output mixing) |
In this particular case, the sound output actually gets shutdown entirely, so you have to reboot to get sound output again.
That make no sense. How can you have two sounds at the same level
going into a mixer that come out at different levels? Or do you mean that a squealing sound is perceived to be louder than white noise? Maybe you could demonstrate with a patch?I always had the feeling, that on OS X on MacBooks (Pro) the sound coming from the speakers is heavily processed. Audio sounds a lot 'punchier' than for example the same audio played on the same machine from Linux. I haven't had a chance to play around with it, since I
don't own a MacBook, but from what Hans says, to me it sounds as the application output is not clipped to -1/1 before going to the
(CoreAudio internal?) dynamics stage, but processed and limited first and only
then sent to the speakers. This would also explain, why the setup Hans explained above would completely shutdown the sound output. Probably, if you wait long enough, sound would come back again, assuming that
it's the limiter's release time, that becomes very long due to the very
high level coming in...
Yes, CoreAudio does do processing on the audio before outputting it.
I forget all the details.
.hc
I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during
that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big
Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. - General Smedley Butler
On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 12:59:39PM -0400, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Aug 31, 2011, at 8:09 AM, Roman Haefeli wrote:
I always had the feeling, that on OS X on MacBooks (Pro) the sound coming from the speakers is heavily processed. Audio sounds a lot 'punchier' than for example the same audio played on the same machine from Linux. I haven't had a chance to play around with it, since I
don't own a MacBook, but from what Hans says, to me it sounds as the application output is not clipped to -1/1 before going to the
(CoreAudio internal?) dynamics stage, but processed and limited first and only
then sent to the speakers. This would also explain, why the setup Hans explained above would completely shutdown the sound output. Probably, if you wait long enough, sound would come back again, assuming that
it's the limiter's release time, that becomes very long due to the very
high level coming in...Yes, CoreAudio does do processing on the audio before outputting it. I forget all the details.
Is this true of the iOS devices too? I always got the impression there was some mad compression going on there. I could just imagine Steve Jobs issuing a directive: "My favorite crunk mp3s do not POP enough. Make everything POP more immediately." The resulting ear fatigue must explain why I get blank looks when I yell about how great GNU/Linux is to Apple users.
Cheers,
Chris.
On Thu, 1 Sep 2011, Chris McCormick wrote:
Is this true of the iOS devices too? I always got the impression there was some mad compression going on there. I could just imagine Steve Jobs issuing a directive: "My favorite crunk mp3s do not POP enough. Make everything POP more immediately." The resulting ear fatigue must explain why I get blank looks when I yell about how great GNU/Linux is to Apple users.
Or perhaps it's because you don't say it the way Steve would.
« IT'S INSANELY GREAT ! »
and such.
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at To: Martin martin.peach@sympatico.ca Cc: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 11:52 AM Subject: Re: [PD] making puredata headphone-safe
On Aug 23, 2011, at 3:43 PM, Martin wrote:
On 23/08/11 03:29 PM, Stephen Lavelle wrote:
I've managed to hurt my ears twice over the past two days when
using PD w/ headphones. Even at lowest system volumes, it seems that Terrible Things can happen. Are there any precautions that I can take to make it feel less like I'm taking my life into my hands when I have to use headphones?
Try making a [noise~] connected directly to a [dac~] and set the headphone
volume so you can live with that. Nothing will ever be louder than that.
Hmm, I don't think that's actually true in all cases. On a MacBook Pro running Mac OS X, I've had the volume set to one above mute, but had massive feedback from LPC patches that were very very loud. [noise~] would be very comfortable at that volume setting. I think some platforms do the output mixing in the digital domain, so my min volume would be [*~ 0.01], so that this would still make a very loud sound:
[noise~] | [*~ 999999] | [*~ 0.01] (i.e. the Apple output mixing) |
In this particular case, the sound output actually gets shutdown entirely, so you have to reboot to get sound output again.
Please try the following and see if you get different results:
[noise~] | [*~ 999999] | [clip~ -1 1] | [*~ 0.01] (i.e. the Apple output mixing) |
-Jonathan
.hc
I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. - General Smedley Butler
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I don't get why no one is talking about reducing the signal level before dac~?
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Martin Peach martin.peach@sympatico.cawrote:
On 2011-08-23 15:45, patrick wrote:
use a limiter~ (from zexy) before your dac~
No. You have to decide what is the level that you can live with and work with that. You need to blast the loudest sound you can make and adjust your phones that level.
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On 2011-08-24 07:32, Richie Cyngler wrote:
I don't get why no one is talking about reducing the signal level before dac~?
because we are talking about a safety net here.
everything done before the [dac~], you can easily circumvent within the patch (consciously or - more likely and dangerous - unconsciously) while happily patching away, making such provisions void (and blasting your ears)
fgmasdr IOhannes
That's the danger of low level manipulation :D
[adc~] | [* 1000] | [dac~]
not the best idea :)
Put the volume low always, and be extremely careful. OR: compressor? peak limiter? (after the headphones...) Because if you are suggesting "to be code careful" that might mess up all the fun.
Best, Pedro
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 8:29 PM, Stephen Lavelle analytic@gmail.com wrote:
I've managed to hurt my ears twice over the past two days when using PD w/ headphones. Even at lowest system volumes, it seems that Terrible Things can happen. Are there any precautions that I can take to make it feel less like I'm taking my life into my hands when I have to use headphones?
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*~ :D
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 8:46 PM, Pedro Lopes pedro.lopes@ist.utl.pt wrote:
That's the danger of low level manipulation :D
[adc~] | [* 1000] | [dac~]
not the best idea :)
Put the volume low always, and be extremely careful. OR: compressor? peak limiter? (after the headphones...) Because if you are suggesting "to be code careful" that might mess up all the fun.
Best, Pedro
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 8:29 PM, Stephen Lavelle analytic@gmail.comwrote:
I've managed to hurt my ears twice over the past two days when using PD w/ headphones. Even at lowest system volumes, it seems that Terrible Things can happen. Are there any precautions that I can take to make it feel less like I'm taking my life into my hands when I have to use headphones?
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-- Pedro Lopes (HCI Researcher / MSc) contact: pedro.lopes@ist.utl.pt website: http://web.ist.utl.pt/Pedro.Lopes / http://pedrolopesresearch.wordpress.com/ | http://twitter.com/plopesresearch
Hm... I'm not sure I understand the danger.
Isn't this: [noise~] | [*~ 999999] | [dac~]
an implicit version of: [noise~] | [*~ 999999] | [clip~ -1 1] | [dac~]
?
Doesn't the signal generated by either of these create the greatest perceived volume-- something approaching a bunch of square waves at maximum amplitude at every frequency? If so you couldn't one just make sure that this output doesn't hurt one's ears with the headphones on?
-Jonathan
To: Stephen Lavelle analytic@gmail.com
Cc: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 3:46 PM Subject: Re: [PD] making puredata headphone-safe
That's the danger of low level manipulation :D
[adc~] | [* 1000] | [dac~]
not the best idea :)
Put the volume low always, and be extremely careful. OR: compressor? peak limiter? (after the headphones...) Because if you are suggesting "to be code careful" that might mess up all the fun.
Best, Pedro
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 8:29 PM, Stephen Lavelle analytic@gmail.com wrote:
I've managed to hurt my ears twice over the past two days when using PD w/ headphones. Even at lowest system volumes, it seems that Terrible Things can happen. Are there any precautions that I can take to make it feel less like I'm taking my life into my hands when I have to use headphones?
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- Pedro Lopes (HCI Researcher / MSc) contact: pedro.lopes@ist.utl.pt website: http://web.ist.utl.pt/Pedro.Lopes%C2%A0/%C2%A0http://pedrolopesresearch.word...
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From: Pedro Lopes pedro.lopes@ist.utl.pt
interesting. going with noise -> dac directly,
when my headphones aren't plugged in, it's pretty loud even at the lowest volume setting
when they're plugged in, it's REALLY loud at all volume settings.
like, it sounds exactly the same loudness whatever the volume, so long as it's not 0 (my headphones are sitting beside the laptop - they're going nowhere near my head)
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 10:05 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.comwrote:
Hm... I'm not sure I understand the danger.
Isn't this: [noise~] | [*~ 999999] | [dac~]
an implicit version of: [noise~] | [*~ 999999] | [clip~ -1 1] | [dac~]
?
Doesn't the signal generated by either of these create the greatest perceived volume-- something approaching a bunch of square waves at maximum amplitude at every frequency? If so you couldn't one just make sure that this output doesn't hurt one's ears with the headphones on?
-Jonathan
*To:* Stephen Lavelle analytic@gmail.com *Cc:* pd-list@iem.at *Sent:* Tuesday, August 23, 2011 3:46 PM *Subject:* Re: [PD] making puredata headphone-safe
That's the danger of low level manipulation :D
[adc~] | [* 1000] | [dac~]
not the best idea :)
Put the volume low always, and be extremely careful. OR: compressor? peak limiter? (after the headphones...) Because if you are suggesting "to be code careful" that might mess up all the fun.
Best, Pedro
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 8:29 PM, Stephen Lavelle analytic@gmail.comwrote:
I've managed to hurt my ears twice over the past two days when using PD w/ headphones. Even at lowest system volumes, it seems that Terrible Things can happen. Are there any precautions that I can take to make it feel less like I'm taking my life into my hands when I have to use headphones?
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- Pedro Lopes (HCI Researcher / MSc) contact: pedro.lopes@ist.utl.pt website: http://web.ist.utl.pt/Pedro.Lopes / http://pedrolopesresearch.wordpress.com/ | http://twitter.com/plopesresearch
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*From:* Pedro Lopes pedro.lopes@ist.utl.pt
(whatever kind of sound gen you like)
|
[*~ 0.2]
|
[dac~]
Is quite quiet. You could go to [*~ 0.1] if you need it quieter. I usually add an hslider going from 0-1 into the right inlet to add more control. So:
[ | ]
/
[*~ 0.2]
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 7:15 AM, Stephen Lavelle analytic@gmail.com wrote:
interesting. going with noise -> dac directly,
when my headphones aren't plugged in, it's pretty loud even at the lowest volume setting
when they're plugged in, it's REALLY loud at all volume settings.
like, it sounds exactly the same loudness whatever the volume, so long as it's not 0 (my headphones are sitting beside the laptop - they're going nowhere near my head)
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 10:05 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.comwrote:
Hm... I'm not sure I understand the danger.
Isn't this: [noise~] | [*~ 999999] | [dac~]
an implicit version of: [noise~] | [*~ 999999] | [clip~ -1 1] | [dac~]
?
Doesn't the signal generated by either of these create the greatest perceived volume-- something approaching a bunch of square waves at maximum amplitude at every frequency? If so you couldn't one just make sure that this output doesn't hurt one's ears with the headphones on?
-Jonathan
*To:* Stephen Lavelle analytic@gmail.com *Cc:* pd-list@iem.at *Sent:* Tuesday, August 23, 2011 3:46 PM *Subject:* Re: [PD] making puredata headphone-safe
That's the danger of low level manipulation :D
[adc~] | [* 1000] | [dac~]
not the best idea :)
Put the volume low always, and be extremely careful. OR: compressor? peak limiter? (after the headphones...) Because if you are suggesting "to be code careful" that might mess up all the fun.
Best, Pedro
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 8:29 PM, Stephen Lavelle analytic@gmail.comwrote:
I've managed to hurt my ears twice over the past two days when using PD w/ headphones. Even at lowest system volumes, it seems that Terrible Things can happen. Are there any precautions that I can take to make it feel less like I'm taking my life into my hands when I have to use headphones?
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- Pedro Lopes (HCI Researcher / MSc) contact: pedro.lopes@ist.utl.pt website: http://web.ist.utl.pt/Pedro.Lopes / http://pedrolopesresearch.wordpress.com/ | http://twitter.com/plopesresearch
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
*From:* Pedro Lopes pedro.lopes@ist.utl.pt
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On 08/23/2011 11:47 PM, Richie Cyngler wrote:
(whatever kind of sound gen you like) | [*~ 0.2] |
[dac~]
i think you should put a clip -1 1 before the *~ 0.2. otherwise, if you connect something like osc~ 5555 *~ 10000 for example, you would get some very loud drilling sound at the dac~ ,which should(!?) also clip at -1 1, but this might be too loud already...
bis denn! martin
On 24/08/11 05:15, Stephen Lavelle wrote:
interesting. going with noise -> dac directly,
when my headphones aren't plugged in, it's pretty loud even at the lowest volume setting
when they're plugged in, it's REALLY loud at all volume settings.
like, it sounds exactly the same loudness whatever the volume, so long as it's not 0 (my headphones are sitting beside the laptop - they're going nowhere near my head)
then either you are not adjusting the volume of the headphones, or your volume control is not working. That is a problem with your system and nothing you do in pd will help.
Simon
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
Hm... I'm not sure I understand the danger.
Isn't this: [noise~] | [*~ 999999] | [dac~]
an implicit version of: [noise~] | [*~ 999999] | [clip~ -1 1] | [dac~]
?
Yes. Thus it makes square waves. Their power is :
(integral of (±1)² on [a;b]) / abs(a-b)
which equals 1.
Sine waves, instead, have this power :
(integral of (sin t)² on [a;b]) / abs(a-b)
which is ½ on average.
There are further differences due to which frequencies are involved. Power in freqs around 1 kHz is more hearable, and power in freqs above that might be less hearable but still more painful, etc. But I don't know data about pain, just about hearability.
[noise~] and high-pitched [osc~] have more hearable power than low-pitched [osc~]. Also, heavily-clipped signals have higher-pitched power, which usually means more hearable power.
a [osc~ 100], when very clipped, will have power at 100 Hz, 300 Hz (nine times less), 500 Hz (twenty times less than 100 Hz), 700 Hz (49 times less than 100 Hz), etc., following the same pattern.
combinations of several [osc~] with one clipper will have many more harmonics than that.
you may think of [noise~] is somehow similar to an average of a silly number of [osc~] together, which cover the whole spectrum. any clipping of them will also cover the whole spectrum, but differently.
I didn't read those articles, but they are on those topics : loudness : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weighting clipping : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distortion#Harmonic_distortion
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
Hey
I am soliciting examples for entry level GEM patches that work on linux/windows and OSX that show how to mix a video or react to sound. I recall a set of them called Begenswelder? That had a real good example for a sound reactive GEM patch but I cannot find it in my files, Please refresh my memory and as I asked anyone who has a simple patch(s) for understanding GEM or Vjing that works cross platform would be greatly appreciated. I have a few but I am trying to expand my cross platform examples.
Thanks in advance
pp
Hey,
I use PD/GEM a lot for VJing using a version of this patch http://puredata.hurleur.com/viewtopic.php?pid=25492 It's definitely not a beginner's patch...
One note about this patch: It only really plays videos, it doesn't do anything generative.
Ant
On 24 August 2011 21:07, Pagano, Patrick pat@digitalworlds.ufl.edu wrote:
Hey
I am soliciting examples for entry level GEM patches that work on linux/windows and OSX that show how to mix a video or react to sound. I recall a set of them called Begenswelder? That had a real good example for a sound reactive GEM patch but I cannot find it in my files, Please refresh my memory and as I asked anyone who has a simple patch(s) for understanding GEM or Vjing that works cross platform would be greatly appreciated. I have a few but I am trying to expand my cross platform examples.
Thanks in advance
pp
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Hey Ant,
I checked out your patch but I couldn't get it to open any video files. I tried .avi, .mov and .mpg on osX.
thanks
On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 6:25 AM, Antonio Roberts antonio@hellocatfood.comwrote:
Hey,
I use PD/GEM a lot for VJing using a version of this patch http://puredata.hurleur.com/viewtopic.php?pid=25492 It's definitely not a beginner's patch...
One note about this patch: It only really plays videos, it doesn't do anything generative.
Ant
On 24 August 2011 21:07, Pagano, Patrick pat@digitalworlds.ufl.edu wrote:
Hey
I am soliciting examples for entry level GEM patches that work on linux/windows and OSX that show how to mix a video or react to sound. I recall a set of them called Begenswelder? That had a real good example
for
a sound reactive GEM patch but I cannot find it in my files, Please refresh my memory and as I asked anyone who has a simple patch(s) for understanding GEM or Vjing that works cross platform would be greatly appreciated. I have a few but I am trying to expand my cross platform examples.
Thanks in advance
pp
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-- 07875 006 245 antonio@hellocatfood.com
============================ http://www.hellocatfood.com ============================
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Hello
No problem to play video for me. Do you Have you the README >>> because if you don't have gridflow, it's impossible that you can play any video. But I haven't the preview in the patch in OSX.
p
Le 25 août 2011 à 00:25, Richie Cyngler a écrit :
Hey Ant,
I checked out your patch but I couldn't get it to open any video files. I tried .avi, .mov and .mpg on osX.
thanks
On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 6:25 AM, Antonio Roberts antonio@hellocatfood.com wrote: Hey,
I use PD/GEM a lot for VJing using a version of this patch http://puredata.hurleur.com/viewtopic.php?pid=25492 It's definitely not a beginner's patch...
One note about this patch: It only really plays videos, it doesn't do anything generative.
Ant
On 24 August 2011 21:07, Pagano, Patrick pat@digitalworlds.ufl.edu wrote:
Hey
I am soliciting examples for entry level GEM patches that work on linux/windows and OSX that show how to mix a video or react to sound. I recall a set of them called Begenswelder? That had a real good example for a sound reactive GEM patch but I cannot find it in my files, Please refresh my memory and as I asked anyone who has a simple patch(s) for understanding GEM or Vjing that works cross platform would be greatly appreciated. I have a few but I am trying to expand my cross platform examples.
Thanks in advance
pp
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-- 07875 006 245 antonio@hellocatfood.com
============================ http://www.hellocatfood.com ============================
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On Thu, 25 Aug 2011, philippe boisnard wrote:
No problem to play video for me. Do you Have you the README >>> because if you don't have gridflow, it's impossible that you can play any video. But I haven't the preview in the patch in OSX.
Do you mean that GridFlow's [#see] does not work for you ?
It's supposed to be cross-platform (Linux/OSX/Win32)...
But the [#from_pix] converter does not work on Win32, and it might have a remaining bug about wrong colours in certain circumstances.
What do you see ? An empty frame, no frame at all, wrong colours, garbage pixels, something else ?
Which versions of GF and Pd do you use for that ?
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
hello,
here are the links to the max neupert's tutorials
http://www.uni-weimar.de/medien/wiki/Audiovideo http://www.uni-weimar.de/medien/wiki/Bewegungsmelder
2011/8/24 Pagano, Patrick pat@digitalworlds.ufl.edu
Hey
I am soliciting examples for entry level GEM patches that work on linux/windows and OSX that show how to mix a video or react to sound. I recall a set of them called Begenswelder? That had a real good example for a sound reactive GEM patch but I cannot find it in my files, Please refresh my memory and as I asked anyone who has a simple patch(s) for understanding GEM or Vjing that works cross platform would be greatly appreciated. I have a few but I am trying to expand my cross platform examples.
Thanks in advance
pp
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Here's a basic video/example using GEM and Puredata. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyS2M0mM5iA
On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 8:39 AM, stéfan piat stefanpiat@gmail.com wrote:
hello,
here are the links to the max neupert's tutorials
http://www.uni-weimar.de/medien/wiki/Audiovideo http://www.uni-weimar.de/medien/wiki/Bewegungsmelder
2011/8/24 Pagano, Patrick pat@digitalworlds.ufl.edu
Hey
I am soliciting examples for entry level GEM patches that work on linux/windows and OSX that show how to mix a video or react to sound. I recall a set of them called Begenswelder? That had a real good example for a sound reactive GEM patch but I cannot find it in my files, Please refresh my memory and as I asked anyone who has a simple patch(s) for understanding GEM or Vjing that works cross platform would be greatly appreciated. I have a few but I am trying to expand my cross platform examples.
Thanks in advance
pp
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Two good rules:
if there is any doubt, use speakers set on low volume
keep your figure on the mute button when messing around with unknowns
I've perfected the "rip the headphones out" reflex, I can get the
headphones out of my ears in well under a second without even thinking
about it :-D
.hc
On Aug 23, 2011, at 3:29 PM, Stephen Lavelle wrote:
I've managed to hurt my ears twice over the past two days when using
PD w/ headphones. Even at lowest system volumes, it seems that
Terrible Things can happen. Are there any precautions that I can
take to make it feel less like I'm taking my life into my hands when
I have to use headphones? _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Computer science is no more related to the computer than astronomy is
related to the telescope. -Edsger Dykstra
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