Hi HC and the gang,
I just gave a PD workshop at Denver University. There were three or four Windows users, almost a dozen Mac users with various versions of OSX 10.3 or 10.4 and one Debian user. Only one had any previous experience either installing or using PD. This was a pretty typical workshop group in my experience in terms of both platform and experience levels, although I would assume that out in PD-UserLand you would find Linux users much better represented demographically.
As an experiment, I had everyone use the extended installers to see if it would save us some time. In the past, installation has often taken up a full day or more depending on architecture and whether or not PDP is being covered.
Some feedback:
- Windows
- Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC8.exe installer
- Installation seemed fine.
- Gem and many other windows-supported externals seemed OK
- [joystick] refused to load
- [playlist] refused to load
- Not enough time to test all externals
- This installer probably saved a lot of time over the MSP installer
because of the included externals. I'll continue to recommend it for windows users.
- OSX
- Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC8.dmg
- PDP copied from Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC5.dmg (I made the install CD for
the workshop before HC updated the RC8 installer).
- As I've reported several times before, the GUI ranges from slow to
unresponsive. The -nrt flag does seem to help fix this problem, although I'm not sure if that means more audio glitches or not. The only other workaround seems to be to reduce patch complexity and the number/update times of GUI elements.
- [hid] broke down frequently for several workshop participants,
particularly when opening the help patch. It has worked flawlessly with the 0.38.4-extended-RC8 for me under 10.4.4-10.4.5, so I cannot explain why it instantly crashed for others. We tried it primarily with Logitech and Sidewinder joysticks.
- PDP did not get the testing it needed because most participants
neglected to install X11.
- I'd like to be able to factor "user error" into some of this (with
[hid], for example), but we really all went through the same install together, including copying over the proper plist file. So I really don't know. Maybe different OSX versions? I won't be seeing most of these students again, so I won't have time to individually troubleshoot and make bug reports for each situation. Sorry...
- As a side-note: in contrast to what Sara Kolster and I reported
earlier, her old 0.37 installer was slow/unresponsive when audio processing is turned on, and sound breaks up even in a patch with only three objects, one GUI element and a MIDI input. Sara uses 0.37 for Gem only, which works fine with the 0.37 installer but is unresponsive with the 0.38 ones.
- I still find the terrible response-times of the GUI the biggest
problem to work with under OSX, with the unpredictability of [hid] coming in a distant second.
- In general, however, using these installers saved me a tremendous
amount of time on OSX. Thanks!
- I don't think that time would be saved if OSX workshoppers had to get
PD+friends from Fink or Darwin-Ports (I recall long ago having to get people to install Fink just for PDP/PiDiP!), but if a non-Aqua interface would speed up the PD GUI under OSX I'd support further investigation into that. Perhaps a DMG installer based on such a Fink/Darwin-Ports compile would follow on the heels of committing PD to one of these package manager systems?
- Debian/Linux
- Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC8-linux-i686.tar.bz2
- This participant had problems with the Debian and DeMuDi packages for
Gem, and Jack support was also missing, so we used HC's installer.
- Most externals tested seemed OK.
- I can't recall if JACK support worked, I'll check back on Monday. It
would be good to make sure it's compiled with both Jack and ALSA-MIDI support.
- Gem did not work--the library refused to load. Using "locate", we
could not find a Gem.pd_linux or gem.pd_linux anywhere on her laptop. Only gem_counter.pd_linux appeared in a search for "gem". Has it actually been included?
- PDP seemed OK, more details soon.
- I'll be testing her laptop again on Monday, so more specifics will be
available then.
- Once Gem works, and if Jack/ALSA-MIDI is there (apologies if I missed
it!), this installer will also save a ton of time during workshops.
- Can anybody suggest an x86 Linux liveCD with a full PD installation
that actually works? By this I mean fast OpenGL/3D/Accelerated Graphics drivers, Jack, ALSA-MIDI and externals without broken dependencies (all problems I've encountered with live CDs + PD before). I'm guessing the Apodio one might be the ticket, but I'm still open to suggestions. Isn't Apodio only in French?
I hope this is feedback you can use. Again apologies for less-than-specifics at times, but with 15 people in a two hour session there's just not much time for it. All in all, thanks for keeping these going HC!
best, derek
Thanks for this report, this is the kind of stuff we need more of so
that we can make actual stable releases. The RC releases are now
officially released, so point people to:
My test release site is now really only for test releases, including
the very broken 0.39.2 build I put up there not so long ago.
The rest of my comments are inline:
On Feb 25, 2006, at 9:44 PM, derek holzer wrote:
Hi HC and the gang,
I just gave a PD workshop at Denver University. There were three or
four Windows users, almost a dozen Mac users with various versions
of OSX 10.3 or 10.4 and one Debian user. Only one had any previous
experience either installing or using PD. This was a pretty typical
workshop group in my experience in terms of both platform and
experience levels, although I would assume that out in PD-UserLand
you would find Linux users much better represented demographically.As an experiment, I had everyone use the extended installers to see
if it would save us some time. In the past, installation has often
taken up a full day or more depending on architecture and whether
or not PDP is being covered.Some feedback:
- Windows
- Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC8.exe installer
- Installation seemed fine.
- Gem and many other windows-supported externals seemed OK
- [joystick] refused to load
jsarlo's [joystick] is not included, so [joystick] would be the
abstraction based on [hid], which doesn't work on Windows yet.
- [playlist] refused to load
A couple of Yves' GUI objects are not currently ported to Windows.
Carmen Rocco ported them, but the changes got overwritten in CVS.
They are still there if anyone wants to dig them up and submit them
to Yves.
- Not enough time to test all externals
- This installer probably saved a lot of time over the MSP
installer because of the included externals. I'll continue to
recommend it for windows users.
- OSX
- Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC8.dmg
- PDP copied from Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC5.dmg (I made the install CD
for the workshop before HC updated the RC8 installer).
- As I've reported several times before, the GUI ranges from slow
to unresponsive. The -nrt flag does seem to help fix this problem,
although I'm not sure if that means more audio glitches or not. The
only other workaround seems to be to reduce patch complexity and
the number/update times of GUI elements.
- [hid] broke down frequently for several workshop participants,
particularly when opening the help patch. It has worked flawlessly
with the 0.38.4-extended-RC8 for me under 10.4.4-10.4.5, so I
cannot explain why it instantly crashed for others. We tried it
primarily with Logitech and Sidewinder joysticks.
Its pretty buggy on Mac OS X, and much more stable on GNU/Linux since
the Linux API is so much nicer. I am trying to find time for a much
needed overhaul of the HID stuff, hopefully that will help with this.
- PDP did not get the testing it needed because most participants
neglected to install X11.
- I'd like to be able to factor "user error" into some of this
(with [hid], for example), but we really all went through the same
install together, including copying over the proper plist file. So
I really don't know. Maybe different OSX versions? I won't be
seeing most of these students again, so I won't have time to
individually troubleshoot and make bug reports for each situation.
Sorry...
- As a side-note: in contrast to what Sara Kolster and I reported
earlier, her old 0.37 installer was slow/unresponsive when audio
processing is turned on, and sound breaks up even in a patch with
only three objects, one GUI element and a MIDI input. Sara uses
0.37 for Gem only, which works fine with the 0.37 installer but is
unresponsive with the 0.38 ones.
- I still find the terrible response-times of the GUI the biggest
problem to work with under OSX, with the unpredictability of [hid]
coming in a distant second.
- In general, however, using these installers saved me a tremendous
amount of time on OSX. Thanks!
- I don't think that time would be saved if OSX workshoppers had to
get PD+friends from Fink or Darwin-Ports (I recall long ago having
to get people to install Fink just for PDP/PiDiP!), but if a non- Aqua interface would speed up the PD GUI under OSX I'd support
further investigation into that. Perhaps a DMG installer based on
such a Fink/Darwin-Ports compile would follow on the heels of
committing PD to one of these package manager systems?
The idea here is a Fink distro for advanced users. It would not
replace the Pd-extended.app, but in addition to the native app.
- Debian/Linux
So far, Pd-extended on GNU/Linux was kind of a second class citizen.
I was contracted to make matching Windows and Mac OS X builds, so I
thought I could make a basic GNU/Linux build without too much extra
effort. There was some talk of using the Pd-extended build system to
build the Debian packages, since Pd-extended has its roots in
Günter's build system, which is what is used for the Debian
packages. Let's hope that happens so we can combine efforts.
- Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC8-linux-i686.tar.bz2
- This participant had problems with the Debian and DeMuDi packages
for Gem, and Jack support was also missing, so we used HC's installer
- Most externals tested seemed OK.
- I can't recall if JACK support worked, I'll check back on Monday.
It would be good to make sure it's compiled with both Jack and ALSA- MIDI support.
The final release compiled with Jack, which means it requires Jack,
specifically the version in Debian/stable, which I think is
libjack-0.80.
- Gem did not work--the library refused to load. Using "locate", we
could not find a Gem.pd_linux or gem.pd_linux anywhere on her
laptop. Only gem_counter.pd_linux appeared in a search for "gem".
Has it actually been included?
Gem is not included yet since its not building from source as part of
the Pd-extended build system yet. On Windows and Mac OS X, the Gem
binary was included. Gem and flext still need to be added to the Pd-
extended build system, any volunteers?
- PDP seemed OK, more details soon.
- I'll be testing her laptop again on Monday, so more specifics
will be available then.
- Once Gem works, and if Jack/ALSA-MIDI is there (apologies if I
missed it!), this installer will also save a ton of time during
workshops.
- Can anybody suggest an x86 Linux liveCD with a full PD
installation that actually works? By this I mean fast OpenGL/3D/ Accelerated Graphics drivers, Jack, ALSA-MIDI and externals without
broken dependencies (all problems I've encountered with live CDs +
PD before). I'm guessing the Apodio one might be the ticket, but
I'm still open to suggestions. Isn't Apodio only in French?
I think pure:dyne aims to be this LiveCD:
I hope this is feedback you can use. Again apologies for less-than- specifics at times, but with 15 people in a two hour session
there's just not much time for it. All in all, thanks for keeping
these going HC!
People are writing a ton of great code for Pd, both as compiled
"externals" and as Pd objects. If we could get all this included
into an easy to setup and use package, Pd would be far and away the
best media platform out there. The major sticking point right now is
that most Pd devs use their own build system, instead of all us using
one. If we all used the same build system, all of this integration
would happen more or less automatically.
.hc
best, derek
-- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ---Oblique Strategy # 130: "Question the heroic"
As we enjoy great advantages from inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously.
- Benjamin Franklin
Hi HC,
glad the feedback is useful. The more this stuff gets tested, the better it will get.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
A couple of Yves' GUI objects are not currently ported to Windows.
Carmen Rocco ported them, but the changes got overwritten in CVS. They are still there if anyone wants to dig them up and submit them to Yves.
Submitting Windows ports to Yves is a bit like sending them to the Black Hole of Calcutta ;-) Better just check them into CVS in your own, whoever it is out there that has such "evil" code.
- Can anybody suggest an x86 Linux liveCD with a full PD installation
that actually works? By this I mean fast OpenGL/3D/Accelerated Graphics drivers, Jack, ALSA-MIDI and externals without broken dependencies (all problems I've encountered with live CDs + PD before). I'm guessing the Apodio one might be the ticket, but I'm still open to suggestions. Isn't Apodio only in French?
I think pure:dyne aims to be this LiveCD:
Vaporware. Anybody know anything that's now and wow?
best, d.
derek,
your reports of the os X installer are almost spot on the same as my experience. i found that it worked ok, but there were a few glitches (such as the gui, hid, the 'tab' key mysteriously stopped working...etc) ...that's why i was sticking to my tried and tested 0.37 installation.
i don't think that it's a problem for people to have to install pd for themselves, but as hans said..."The major sticking point right now is that most Pd devs use their own build system, instead of all us using one. If we all used the same build system, all of this integration would happen more or less automatically."
THIS is fundamental.
if every package could just work with < ./configure , make , make install > (or whatever) it would be a lot better
but that's not just a pd problem... it's everywhere in linux based software
On Feb 26, 2006, at 11:07 PM, derek holzer wrote:
Hi HC,
glad the feedback is useful. The more this stuff gets tested, the
better it will get.Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
A couple of Yves' GUI objects are not currently ported to
Windows. Carmen Rocco ported them, but the changes got
overwritten in CVS. They are still there if anyone wants to dig
them up and submit them to Yves.Submitting Windows ports to Yves is a bit like sending them to the
Black Hole of Calcutta ;-) Better just check them into CVS in your own, whoever it is out
there that has such "evil" code.
Carmen did do that, and Yves overwrote those changes. So Carmen's
changes are in CVS, but not in the current version.
.hc
- Can anybody suggest an x86 Linux liveCD with a full PD
installation that actually works? By this I mean fast OpenGL/3D/ Accelerated Graphics drivers, Jack, ALSA-MIDI and externals
without broken dependencies (all problems I've encountered with
live CDs + PD before). I'm guessing the Apodio one might be the
ticket, but I'm still open to suggestions. Isn't Apodio only in
French?I think pure:dyne aims to be this LiveCD: https://puredyne.goto10.org/
Vaporware. Anybody know anything that's now and wow?
best, d.
-- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ---Oblique Strategy # 42: "Destroy -nothing -the most important thing"
"Terrorism is not an enemy. It cannot be defeated. It's a tactic.
It's about as sensible to say we declare war on night attacks and
expect we're going to win that war. We're not going to win the war
on terrorism."
- retired U.S. Army general,
William Odom
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Feb 26, 2006, at 11:07 PM, derek holzer wrote:
Hi HC,
glad the feedback is useful. The more this stuff gets tested, the better it will get.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
A couple of Yves' GUI objects are not currently ported to Windows. Carmen Rocco ported them, but the changes got overwritten in CVS. They are still there if anyone wants to dig them up and submit them to Yves.
Submitting Windows ports to Yves is a bit like sending them to the Black Hole of Calcutta ;-) Better just check them into CVS in your own, whoever it is out there that has such "evil" code.
Carmen did do that, and Yves overwrote those changes. So Carmen's changes are in CVS, but not in the current version.
.
hey.
if someone would kindly tell me he dis some changes to the code, i would consider that
anyway, just call me ' the black hole of calcutta', even though it's much more in the raval
then, you will charge on me again for stupid reasons?
and, i don't shy on his list youhate southern countries and calcutta...
your confusion...my excuse
salut!, sevy
Hi Yves,
no confusion nor excuses from my end. Just recognizing that you don't do windows, and such stuff probably gets deleted as SPAM in your inbox. It's all just fun and games until somebody loses an OS.
Maybe I'll leave it to you to explain to my all my friends in Brasil and India that I hate southern countries ;-)
Happy carnival wherever you are, d.
Yves Degoyon wrote:
hey.
if someone would kindly tell me he dis some changes to the code, i would consider that
anyway, just call me ' the black hole of calcutta', even though it's much more in the raval
then, you will charge on me again for stupid reasons?
and, i don't shy on his list youhate southern countries and calcutta...
your confusion...my excuse
salut!, sevy
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
i'm sorry man, you can get to southern countries, and still say 'that was like in that black hole somewhere', with your despise and smile..
i can't stand you set this as the worst thing in the world..
i personally never have been to some worst places than in america..
that's said,
sevy
derek holzer wrote:
Hi Yves,
no confusion nor excuses from my end. Just recognizing that you don't do windows, and such stuff probably gets deleted as SPAM in your inbox. It's all just fun and games until somebody loses an OS.
Maybe I'll leave it to you to explain to my all my friends in Brasil and India that I hate southern countries ;-)
Happy carnival wherever you are, d.
Yves Degoyon wrote:
hey.
if someone would kindly tell me he dis some changes to the code, i would consider that
anyway, just call me ' the black hole of calcutta', even though it's much more in the raval
then, you will charge on me again for stupid reasons?
and, i don't shy on his list youhate southern countries and calcutta...
your confusion...my excuse
salut!, sevy
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
The Black Hole of Calcutta was a particularly nasty prison. Nothing "first worldish" about saying that, or using it as a metaphor. Sorry you're so sensitive about it. I won't trouble you further with my political incorrectness. I'd rather get back to discussing how to make things work.
best, d.
Yves Degoyon wrote:
i'm sorry man, you can get to southern countries, and still say 'that was like in that black hole somewhere', with your despise and smile..
i can't stand you set this as the worst thing in the world..
i personally never have been to some worst places than in america..
that's said,
sevy
derek holzer wrote:
Hi Yves,
no confusion nor excuses from my end. Just recognizing that you don't do windows, and such stuff probably gets deleted as SPAM in your inbox. It's all just fun and games until somebody loses an OS.
Maybe I'll leave it to you to explain to my all my friends in Brasil and India that I hate southern countries ;-)
Happy carnival wherever you are, d.
Yves Degoyon wrote:
hey.
if someone would kindly tell me he dis some changes to the code, i would consider that
anyway, just call me ' the black hole of calcutta', even though it's much more in the raval
then, you will charge on me again for stupid reasons?
and, i don't shy on his list youhate southern countries and calcutta...
your confusion...my excuse
salut!, sevy
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
yes, so, if someone would have told me ( or notice me ) of soem changes to my code, maybe they would bw incorporated in next version
nothing more to say ( as says fred ), i was on my way to southern countries.
( i don't want to crush windows code, i have no way to test it, and i think windows is the black hole of seattle )
ciao, sevy
derek holzer wrote:
The Black Hole of Calcutta was a particularly nasty prison. Nothing "first worldish" about saying that, or using it as a metaphor. Sorry you're so sensitive about it. I won't trouble you further with my political incorrectness. I'd rather get back to discussing how to make things work.
best, d.
Yves Degoyon wrote:
i'm sorry man, you can get to southern countries, and still say 'that was like in that black hole somewhere', with your despise and smile..
i can't stand you set this as the worst thing in the world..
i personally never have been to some worst places than in america..
that's said,
sevy
derek holzer wrote:
Hi Yves,
no confusion nor excuses from my end. Just recognizing that you don't do windows, and such stuff probably gets deleted as SPAM in your inbox. It's all just fun and games until somebody loses an OS.
Maybe I'll leave it to you to explain to my all my friends in Brasil and India that I hate southern countries ;-)
Happy carnival wherever you are, d.
Yves Degoyon wrote:
hey.
if someone would kindly tell me he dis some changes to the code, i would consider that
anyway, just call me ' the black hole of calcutta', even though it's much more in the raval
then, you will charge on me again for stupid reasons?
and, i don't shy on his list youhate southern countries and calcutta...
your confusion...my excuse
salut!, sevy
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On 2/25/06, derek holzer derek@x-i.net wrote:
- OSX
- As I've reported several times before, the GUI ranges from slow to
unresponsive. The -nrt flag does seem to help fix this problem, although I'm not sure if that means more audio glitches or not. The only other workaround seems to be to reduce patch complexity and the number/update times of GUI elements.
There will probably be more dropouts, so the choice is more responsive GUI or fewer dropouts. I have never found a solution to making Pd particularly usable for audio on OSX. I use SuperCollider personally.
- PDP did not get the testing it needed because most participants
neglected to install X11.
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/apple/x11formacosx.html
That works for 10.3. For 10.4 you might need an installer disc.
-
chris clepper -
derek holzer -
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
hard off -
Yves Degoyon