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On 2014-02-05 15:35, Fero Kiraly wrote:
is it possibile ?
depends on what you really want to do.
i've once written an MTA in Pd (that is a mail-server, as opposed to the mail-client you want). communicating with an imap server is not very complicated (as long as there is no encryption involved), so it should be *quite* easy to do that in Pd. i guess the biggest problem is to present the email(s) to the user.
fgasmdr IOhannes
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On 2014-02-05 16:02, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
On 2014-02-05 15:35, Fero Kiraly wrote:
is it possibile ?
depends on what you really want to do.
i've once written an MTA in Pd (that is a mail-server, as opposed to the mail-client you want).
http://puredata.info/downloads/pd-mail/
the project page speaks of having both "MTA" and "MUA" implemented, but in this context "MUA" (user client) really only means "sending MUA" and not "MUA for reading emails"
fgamdsr IOhannes
Le 05/02/2014 15:35, Fero Kiraly a écrit :
is it possibile ?
thanks.
fero
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Just try it with [tcpclient] on Ubuntu and it works fine. See patch attached. ++
Jack
yes possible, for example using py/ext with a script like this one: http://libgmail.sourceforge.net/
but pd is not really good with strings afaik à+
On 02/05/2014 05:29 PM, puredata@11h11.com wrote:
yes possible, for example using py/ext with a script like this one: http://libgmail.sourceforge.net/
but pd is not really good with strings afaik
If you use Pd and have a use case where you're controling both the sending and receiving of the messages, then you can limit the message content to use only what Pd's message parser can handle.
Also, make sure the machine you're using has never had or will never have anything of interest on it. On the other hand, I guess you could leave a Bitcoin wallet on there and think of your impending hack as a virtual Halloween treat.
-Jonathan
à +
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On 06/02/14 06:29, puredata@11h11.com wrote:
but pd is not really good with strings afaik
Maybe soon:
https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/8a02332a5fb68edc2899e2f1351...
https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/49ffcf8ba5cdde7660e82f1e190...
:)
Cheers,
Chris.
On 02/06/2014 01:53 AM, Chris McCormick wrote:
On 06/02/14 06:29, puredata@11h11.com wrote:
but pd is not really good with strings afaik
Maybe soon:
https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/8a02332a5fb68edc2899e2f1351...
https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/49ffcf8ba5cdde7660e82f1e190...
:)
One of the reasons (I think) the string manipulation libs in Pd extended haven't caught on is because they seem to force users to care directly about character codes. If I want to pass the string "hello{world}" around in Pd, I should not have to know the codes for curly braces just to create that string in an object box.
To work, this will require a new set of GUI classes that allow the user
to type strings that get saved underneath as character codes, as well as
display lists of character codes as a string in the patch. I don't know
any externals that do this, but it shouldn't be hard if you're sending
the text to the GUI as floats. Also, you need i/o classes to read from
and write to files without having to pass through lists of symbols and
floats as intermediaries. Otherwise, you will lose data on the read.
Finally, you can't leverage any of the extant symbol manipulation tools,
because then you run into symbol-table growth, dollsym
substitutions/escapes, and all the other problems that I assume are the
reason for introducing lists of character codes. Otherwise you're just
pushing the current problems users have with symbols to the edges of the
new string library.
I understand the desire for this approach, and it's probably less work than making symbols deallocatable. But if the user has to stare at character codes just to get around the limitations of symbol atoms, they'll probably just use symbol atoms and work within Pd's current limitations for string processing.
-Jonathan
You can manipulate strings in pdlua and only export the symbols you want; yes you need to learn lua but it's not very hard.
Martin
On 2014-02-08 01:10, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
On 02/06/2014 01:53 AM, Chris McCormick wrote:
On 06/02/14 06:29, puredata@11h11.com wrote:
but pd is not really good with strings afaik
Maybe soon:
https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/8a02332a5fb68edc2899e2f1351...
https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/49ffcf8ba5cdde7660e82f1e190...
:)
One of the reasons (I think) the string manipulation libs in Pd extended haven't caught on is because they seem to force users to care directly about character codes. If I want to pass the string "hello{world}" around in Pd, I should not have to know the codes for curly braces just to create that string in an object box.
To work, this will require a new set of GUI classes that allow the user to type strings that get saved underneath as character codes, as well as display lists of character codes as a string in the patch. I don't know any externals that do this, but it shouldn't be hard if you're sending the text to the GUI as floats. Also, you need i/o classes to read from and write to files without having to pass through lists of symbols and floats as intermediaries. Otherwise, you will lose data on the read. Finally, you can't leverage any of the extant symbol manipulation tools, because then you run into symbol-table growth, dollsym substitutions/escapes, and all the other problems that I assume are the reason for introducing lists of character codes. Otherwise you're just pushing the current problems users have with symbols to the edges of the new string library.
I understand the desire for this approach, and it's probably less work than making symbols deallocatable. But if the user has to stare at character codes just to get around the limitations of symbol atoms, they'll probably just use symbol atoms and work within Pd's current limitations for string processing.
-Jonathan
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On 02/08/2014 01:26 AM, Martin Peach wrote:
You can manipulate strings in pdlua and only export the symbols you want; yes you need to learn lua but it's not very hard.
That's good practical advice for getting work done with strings atm.
But it's irrelevant to getting decent string manipulation within Pd,
meaning using boxes connected with wires.
The reason for wanting to do string manipulation within Pd is just as obvious as the question that I didn't have to ask and which you addressed after your semicolon.
-Jonathan
Martin
On 2014-02-08 01:10, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
On 02/06/2014 01:53 AM, Chris McCormick wrote:
On 06/02/14 06:29, puredata@11h11.com wrote:
but pd is not really good with strings afaik
Maybe soon:
https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/8a02332a5fb68edc2899e2f1351...
https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/49ffcf8ba5cdde7660e82f1e190...
:)
One of the reasons (I think) the string manipulation libs in Pd extended haven't caught on is because they seem to force users to care directly about character codes. If I want to pass the string "hello{world}" around in Pd, I should not have to know the codes for curly braces just to create that string in an object box.
To work, this will require a new set of GUI classes that allow the user to type strings that get saved underneath as character codes, as well as display lists of character codes as a string in the patch. I don't know any externals that do this, but it shouldn't be hard if you're sending the text to the GUI as floats. Also, you need i/o classes to read from and write to files without having to pass through lists of symbols and floats as intermediaries. Otherwise, you will lose data on the read. Finally, you can't leverage any of the extant symbol manipulation tools, because then you run into symbol-table growth, dollsym substitutions/escapes, and all the other problems that I assume are the reason for introducing lists of character codes. Otherwise you're just pushing the current problems users have with symbols to the edges of the new string library.
I understand the desire for this approach, and it's probably less work than making symbols deallocatable. But if the user has to stare at character codes just to get around the limitations of symbol atoms, they'll probably just use symbol atoms and work within Pd's current limitations for string processing.
-Jonathan
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A few years ago I implemented a patch for strings in Pd that adds a string or blob type that allows (I think) for what you are describing. I believe it's still part of Pd extended, but Miller didn't like it for some reason. I prefer to manipulate strings in a another language as it just seems like a lot of work to make it happen with boxes and wires when you can just call string functions in a high level language. Kind of like building a Turing machine holes-in-paper-tape version of a program, it can be an interesting exercise but practically it's useless.
Martin
On 2014-02-08 03:14, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
On 02/08/2014 01:26 AM, Martin Peach wrote:
You can manipulate strings in pdlua and only export the symbols you want; yes you need to learn lua but it's not very hard.
That's good practical advice for getting work done with strings atm. But it's irrelevant to getting decent string manipulation within Pd, meaning using boxes connected with wires.
The reason for wanting to do string manipulation within Pd is just as obvious as the question that I didn't have to ask and which you addressed after your semicolon.
-Jonathan
Martin
On 2014-02-08 01:10, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
On 02/06/2014 01:53 AM, Chris McCormick wrote:
On 06/02/14 06:29, puredata@11h11.com wrote:
but pd is not really good with strings afaik
Maybe soon:
https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/8a02332a5fb68edc2899e2f1351...
https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/49ffcf8ba5cdde7660e82f1e190...
:)
One of the reasons (I think) the string manipulation libs in Pd extended haven't caught on is because they seem to force users to care directly about character codes. If I want to pass the string "hello{world}" around in Pd, I should not have to know the codes for curly braces just to create that string in an object box.
To work, this will require a new set of GUI classes that allow the user to type strings that get saved underneath as character codes, as well as display lists of character codes as a string in the patch. I don't know any externals that do this, but it shouldn't be hard if you're sending the text to the GUI as floats. Also, you need i/o classes to read from and write to files without having to pass through lists of symbols and floats as intermediaries. Otherwise, you will lose data on the read. Finally, you can't leverage any of the extant symbol manipulation tools, because then you run into symbol-table growth, dollsym substitutions/escapes, and all the other problems that I assume are the reason for introducing lists of character codes. Otherwise you're just pushing the current problems users have with symbols to the edges of the new string library.
I understand the desire for this approach, and it's probably less work than making symbols deallocatable. But if the user has to stare at character codes just to get around the limitations of symbol atoms, they'll probably just use symbol atoms and work within Pd's current limitations for string processing.
-Jonathan
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On 02/08/2014 01:40 PM, Martin Peach wrote:
A few years ago I implemented a patch for strings in Pd that adds a string or blob type that allows (I think) for what you are describing. I believe it's still part of Pd extended, but Miller didn't like it for some reason.
It looks more like a prototype for a string implementation. I'm not even able to do this:
[bng] | [str hello_world] | [print]
Additionally, moving the cord-inspector over the wire connecting displays nothing. Those are just the first two things I tried to do as a user, to view a core atom type which most of the time will be holding readable text.
It may seem trivial to get those two things to work, but the point is that someone has to do it, for every single internal and external class which already understands and can manipulate the one string atom but doesn't understand the better string atom.
[str hello 32 world] isn't much fun, either. But it's hard to improve that without the ability for the object box to leave the user input unparsed.
I prefer to manipulate strings in a another language as it just seems like a lot of work to make it happen with boxes and wires when you can just call string functions in a high level language.
I don't understand this. If you take nearly every string manipulation I did in tcl for the search-plugin and put it in Pd, you are either a) unrolling several commands in nested square brackets and laying them out vertically (or inside an abstraction) or b) putting a tcl line of code in a box and connecting its output to the next line of tcl code in a box with a wire. If "a" is troublesome to patch and read in Pd then it was hard to write and read in tcl.
There are of course way more complex examples of string manipulation, but Pd's tools don't have to be perfect to be useful.
Kind of like building a Turing machine holes-in-paper-tape version of a program, it can be an interesting exercise but practically it's useless.
Read in transcript of congressional testimony on NSA surveillance. Split into one string for each line. Read one line every second. If a line contains the word "terrorism" make a sound. User takes a drink.
Totally useful. :)
What is it about boxes connected with lines that you think makes this difficult?
-Jonathan
Martin
On 2014-02-08 03:14, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
On 02/08/2014 01:26 AM, Martin Peach wrote:
You can manipulate strings in pdlua and only export the symbols you want; yes you need to learn lua but it's not very hard.
That's good practical advice for getting work done with strings atm. But it's irrelevant to getting decent string manipulation within Pd, meaning using boxes connected with wires.
The reason for wanting to do string manipulation within Pd is just as obvious as the question that I didn't have to ask and which you addressed after your semicolon.
-Jonathan
Martin
On 2014-02-08 01:10, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
On 02/06/2014 01:53 AM, Chris McCormick wrote:
On 06/02/14 06:29, puredata@11h11.com wrote:
but pd is not really good with strings afaik
Maybe soon:
https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/8a02332a5fb68edc2899e2f1351...
https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/pure-data/ci/49ffcf8ba5cdde7660e82f1e190...
:)
One of the reasons (I think) the string manipulation libs in Pd extended haven't caught on is because they seem to force users to care directly about character codes. If I want to pass the string "hello{world}" around in Pd, I should not have to know the codes for curly braces just to create that string in an object box.
To work, this will require a new set of GUI classes that allow the user to type strings that get saved underneath as character codes, as well as display lists of character codes as a string in the patch. I don't know any externals that do this, but it shouldn't be hard if you're sending the text to the GUI as floats. Also, you need i/o classes to read from and write to files without having to pass through lists of symbols and floats as intermediaries. Otherwise, you will lose data on the read. Finally, you can't leverage any of the extant symbol manipulation tools, because then you run into symbol-table growth, dollsym substitutions/escapes, and all the other problems that I assume are the reason for introducing lists of character codes. Otherwise you're just pushing the current problems users have with symbols to the edges of the new string library.
I understand the desire for this approach, and it's probably less work than making symbols deallocatable. But if the user has to stare at character codes just to get around the limitations of symbol atoms, they'll probably just use symbol atoms and work within Pd's current limitations for string processing.
-Jonathan
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On 09/02/14 07:59, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
On 02/08/2014 01:40 PM, Martin Peach wrote:
A few years ago I implemented a patch for strings in Pd that adds a string or blob type that allows (I think) for what you are describing. I believe it's still part of Pd extended, but Miller didn't like it for some reason.
...
I prefer to manipulate strings in a another language as it just seems like a lot of work to make it happen with boxes and wires when you can just call string functions in a high level language.
...
Kind of like building a Turing machine holes-in-paper-tape version of a program, it can be an interesting exercise but practically it's useless.
Read in transcript of congressional testimony on NSA surveillance. Split into one string for each line. Read one line every second. If a line contains the word "terrorism" make a sound. User takes a drink.
Totally useful. :)
What is it about boxes connected with lines that you think makes this difficult?
Perhaps it is the long term and very well established resistance to adding a few types to the message syntax ... integers capable of indexing reasonable file lengths, strings which don't flood the symbol table, floats that aren't in danger of being truncated, bytes or chars which won't trigger parsing issues. Matrices are available via an external library (gridflow, within its own externals including non-native print and so forth) and GPU video access is possible via GEM with its private message syntax, but core Pd is very focussed on what it originally set out to do. There have been some moves on this, just very slow and careful ones.
A graphical dataflow language is very nice for dealing with DSP and with control and interaction logic, and for doing so in a bunch of machines distributed over a network. Pd has lots of good ways to receive and send control messages and link with hardware and other programs. But dataflow and procedural algorithms are quite different and parsing strings is a very common thing to do when programming ... if you are familiar with the procedural way and have a good set of tools available to abstract the details then its easier to just go with what you know.
It would be nice to be able to do this natively, especially since many Pd programmers are not that familiar with procedural programming. It is certainly practical and worthwhile to extend Pd for this but that requires some of the things that have been long put off till later for a very very long time. Meanwhile the Lua external provides the way to do what remains problematic natively (as much due to policy as anything else) and anyone capable of adding functionality to Pd will find it much much easier to use Lau than to engage in a huge and perhaps fruitless effort to push it into Pd.
Simon
On 02/08/2014 11:44 PM, Simon Wise wrote:
On 09/02/14 07:59, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
On 02/08/2014 01:40 PM, Martin Peach wrote:
A few years ago I implemented a patch for strings in Pd that adds a string or blob type that allows (I think) for what you are describing. I believe it's still part of Pd extended, but Miller didn't like it for some reason.
...
I prefer to manipulate strings in a another language as it just seems like a lot of work to make it happen with boxes and wires when you can just call string functions in a high level language.
...
Kind of like building a Turing machine holes-in-paper-tape version of a program, it can be an interesting exercise but practically it's useless.
Read in transcript of congressional testimony on NSA surveillance. Split into one string for each line. Read one line every second. If a line contains the word "terrorism" make a sound. User takes a drink.
Totally useful. :)
What is it about boxes connected with lines that you think makes this difficult?
Perhaps it is the long term and very well established resistance to adding a few types to the message syntax ... integers capable of indexing reasonable file lengths, strings which don't flood the symbol table, floats that aren't in danger of being truncated, bytes or chars which won't trigger parsing issues. Matrices are available via an external library (gridflow, within its own externals including non-native print and so forth) and GPU video access is possible via GEM with its private message syntax, but core Pd is very focussed on what it originally set out to do. There have been some moves on this, just very slow and careful ones.
A graphical dataflow language is very nice for dealing with DSP and with control and interaction logic, and for doing so in a bunch of machines distributed over a network. Pd has lots of good ways to receive and send control messages and link with hardware and other programs. But dataflow and procedural algorithms are quite different and parsing strings is a very common thing to do when programming ... if you are familiar with the procedural way and have a good set of tools available to abstract the details then its easier to just go with what you know.
It would be nice to be able to do this natively, especially since many Pd programmers are not that familiar with procedural programming. It is certainly practical and worthwhile to extend Pd for this but that requires some of the things that have been long put off till later for a very very long time. Meanwhile the Lua external provides the way to do what remains problematic natively (as much due to policy as anything else) and anyone capable of adding functionality to Pd will find it much much easier to use Lau than to engage in a huge and perhaps fruitless effort to push it into Pd.
It sounds like you are rationalizing and encouraging non-development.
But it also sounds like we agree that there is nothing about boxes of text connected with lines that makes string manipulation more difficult than lines of text.
-Jonathan
Simon
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On 09/02/14 16:34, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
On 02/08/2014 11:44 PM, Simon Wise wrote:
...
It would be nice to be able to do this natively, especially since many Pd programmers are not that familiar with procedural programming. It is certainly practical and worthwhile to extend Pd for this but that requires some of the things that have been long put off till later for a very very long time. Meanwhile the Lua external provides the way to do what remains problematic natively (as much due to policy as anything else) and anyone capable of adding functionality to Pd will find it much much easier to use Lau than to engage in a huge and perhaps fruitless effort to push it into Pd.
It sounds like you are rationalizing and encouraging non-development.
More pointing out the frustrations that have been experienced in the past, and noting that decisions about what is added to Pd core are very consistent and are very careful, cautious and slow in these areas in particular. As you pointed out adding something like a string type without introducing it to [print] is not good, so ... you use clumsy workarounds that don't actually allow strings in messages, perhaps just pointers to stings with arcane results in [print] ... or write a bunch of replacement core objects that recognise strings to use within the library such as [stringprint] etc ... or use a fork with enhanced types and core objects that may or may not be compatible with some eventual core string type.
It may be worth enhancing pd-l2ork this way as it has already departed considerably from pd, their choice has been to speed up development by bypassing these issues and pushing ahead without integration with core Pd, but I think adding strings confined to a small set of string-aware objects which remain otherwise compatible with vanilla the way gridflow added matrices isn't worth it, there is a much greater pay-off with matrices ... gridflow is a huge project with a very substantial library of matrix operations, while the authors long ago abandoned hope of their efforts being included in vanilla and develop in parallel. Development effort on a smaller scale is probably better spent in ways that will integrate with core pd, and there are plenty of those ... including your own solid efforts.
But it also sounds like we agree that there is nothing about boxes of text connected with lines that makes string manipulation more difficult than lines of text.
Absolutely, just the absence of a well defined string type that can be sent down those lines. Arguments advancing the addition of a string selector to Pd core are very worthwhile, I guess probably on pd-dev? it ultimately is a discussion with Miller. There was a link to something being worked on currently, earlier in this thread.
Simon
-
Chris McCormick -
Fero Kiraly -
IOhannes m zmoelnig -
Jack -
Jonathan Wilkes -
Martin Peach -
puredata＠11h11.com -
Simon Wise