Hi guys, Longtime listener, first time caller. I was wondering if there's a good intro to text-only pd. I just got a raspberry pi, and I've heard a lot of chatter about how the -nogui flag solves a lot of weird dsp problems &c, plus it'd be nice not to have to waste a USB port plugging in a mouse as well as a keyboard/midi keyboard/sound card/m-audio box/etc. Plus my main comp is a mac, and I'm worried making my patches on my Mac and then getting them onto my pi will be a pain in the b.
I've seen people say stuff like, "oh, just make a patch and look at it with a text editor and figure it out," but that's a bit over my head.
Thoughts?
-sam
----- Original Message -----
From: Sam Raker sam.raker@gmail.com To: "pd-list@iem.at" pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 10:42 AM Subject: [PD] Textual pd primer
Hi guys, Longtime listener, first time caller. I was wondering if there's a good intro to text-only pd. I just got a raspberry pi, and I've heard a lot of chatter about how the -nogui flag solves a lot of weird dsp problems &c, plus it'd be nice not to have to waste a USB port plugging in a mouse as well as a keyboard/midi keyboard/sound card/m-audio box/etc. Plus my main comp is a mac, and I'm worried making my patches on my Mac and then getting them onto my pi will be a pain in the b.
How exactly do you want to get the patches onto the pi?
I've seen people say stuff like, "oh, just make a patch and look at it with a text editor and figure it out," but that's a bit over my head.
Thoughts?
-sam _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
I guess this is a case of working out best practices for development.
Nobody actually develops Pd in text mode, but gettin things running in an embedded way involves a good deal less graphics and can be intimidating or confusing at first.
If you don't want the RPi set up with mouse, kbd and monitor like a full system, it's rather like working on other embedded development systems, you need to see the board as a target host, and your local machine as the development (client).
One way is to work on a laptop or desktop, and the ftp/scp them accross to the target board.
But probably most useful is to use X windows to ssh
ssh -Y -l user address.of.my.rpi
and then just start Pd, which will seem to run on your main machine.
I sense some kind of Raspberry Pi and Pd workshop in the coming weeks. maybe best developmnt practices and tips will be an outcme of that meeting.
best, Andy
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 10:42:47AM -0400, Sam Raker wrote:
Hi guys, Longtime listener, first time caller. I was wondering if there's a good intro to text-only pd. I just got a raspberry pi, and I've heard a lot of chatter about how the -nogui flag solves a lot of weird dsp problems &c, plus it'd be nice not to have to waste a USB port plugging in a mouse as well as a keyboard/midi keyboard/sound card/m-audio box/etc. Plus my main comp is a mac, and I'm worried making my patches on my Mac and then getting them onto my pi will be a pain in the b.
I've seen people say stuff like, "oh, just make a patch and look at it with a text editor and figure it out," but that's a bit over my head.
Thoughts?
-sam _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Just a thought : wouldn't it be useful to create a pd-Raspberrypi@iem.ataddress ? I get the feeling that there will be more and more messages about this new platform which may not necessarily be interesting to pure Pd users.
Cheers,
Pierre.
2012/8/16 Andy Farnell padawan12@obiwannabe.co.uk
I guess this is a case of working out best practices for development.
Nobody actually develops Pd in text mode, but gettin things running in an embedded way involves a good deal less graphics and can be intimidating or confusing at first.
If you don't want the RPi set up with mouse, kbd and monitor like a full system, it's rather like working on other embedded development systems, you need to see the board as a target host, and your local machine as the development (client).
One way is to work on a laptop or desktop, and the ftp/scp them accross to the target board.
But probably most useful is to use X windows to ssh
ssh -Y -l user address.of.my.rpi
and then just start Pd, which will seem to run on your main machine.
I sense some kind of Raspberry Pi and Pd workshop in the coming weeks. maybe best developmnt practices and tips will be an outcme of that meeting.
best, Andy
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 10:42:47AM -0400, Sam Raker wrote:
Hi guys, Longtime listener, first time caller. I was wondering if there's a good intro to text-only pd. I just got a
raspberry pi, and I've heard a lot of chatter about how the -nogui flag solves a lot of weird dsp problems &c, plus it'd be nice not to have to waste a USB port plugging in a mouse as well as a keyboard/midi keyboard/sound card/m-audio box/etc. Plus my main comp is a mac, and I'm worried making my patches on my Mac and then getting them onto my pi will be a pain in the b.
I've seen people say stuff like, "oh, just make a patch and look at it
with a text editor and figure it out," but that's a bit over my head.
Thoughts?
-sam _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Sam, we've been building and developing Pd on the gumstix embedded platform recently. I'm also running on a Mac so I can give you some of the knowledge I've learnt (it's been an uphill struggle for us too!) which may also apply to working on the Pi.
installed Xcode on your mac, then use X11 and then log in as Andy describes. You can then run it just by typing pd, but don't forget your flags! we're currently using pd -alsa -nomidi -audiobuf 25 -r 22050 -blocksize 128 Tweaking all these will help!
on my mac locally, then copy them over to see how the processor on the Gumstix handles them.
the dsp. So in the patch that opens with no gui put a 1 or sec delay after a loadbang to turn on the dsp. 2. (this is the really weird one) The expr object doesn't work if we launch Pd on startup ( init.d ) with nogui, BUT if we run it with -nogui in a command line over SSH it does.
built in audio and outputs on the Gumstix to work. not sure how this is on the Pi. I'll get Tim to publish it soon anyway.
On 17 August 2012 08:46, Pierre Massat pimassat@gmail.com wrote:
Just a thought : wouldn't it be useful to create a pd-Raspberrypi@iem.at address ? I get the feeling that there will be more and more messages about this new platform which may not necessarily be interesting to pure Pd users.
Cheers,
Pierre.
2012/8/16 Andy Farnell padawan12@obiwannabe.co.uk
I guess this is a case of working out best practices for development.
Nobody actually develops Pd in text mode, but gettin things running in an embedded way involves a good deal less graphics and can be intimidating or confusing at first.
If you don't want the RPi set up with mouse, kbd and monitor like a full system, it's rather like working on other embedded development systems, you need to see the board as a target host, and your local machine as the development (client).
One way is to work on a laptop or desktop, and the ftp/scp them accross to the target board.
But probably most useful is to use X windows to ssh
ssh -Y -l user address.of.my.rpi
and then just start Pd, which will seem to run on your main machine.
I sense some kind of Raspberry Pi and Pd workshop in the coming weeks. maybe best developmnt practices and tips will be an outcme of that meeting.
best, Andy
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 10:42:47AM -0400, Sam Raker wrote:
Hi guys, Longtime listener, first time caller. I was wondering if there's a good intro to text-only pd. I just got a raspberry pi, and I've heard a lot of chatter about how the -nogui flag solves a lot of weird dsp problems &c, plus it'd be nice not to have to waste a USB port plugging in a mouse as well as a keyboard/midi keyboard/sound card/m-audio box/etc. Plus my main comp is a mac, and I'm worried making my patches on my Mac and then getting them onto my pi will be a pain in the b.
I've seen people say stuff like, "oh, just make a patch and look at it with a text editor and figure it out," but that's a bit over my head.
Thoughts?
-sam _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
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Quoth Duncan Speakman, on 17/08/2012 10:03:
- (this is the really weird one) The expr object doesn't work if we
launch Pd on startup ( init.d ) with nogui, BUT if we run it with -nogui in a command line over SSH it does.
could that be to do with permissions? If pd is started at boot via init.d I guess it is running as root? And when you run it over ssh, maybe you are running it as a normal user?
James
we're logging in as root over ssh. there's a lot of weird -nogui issue that different people have encountered, i think there's something broken down deep :)
d
On 17 August 2012 11:39, James Dunn james@4thharmonic.com wrote:
Quoth Duncan Speakman, on 17/08/2012 10:03:
- (this is the really weird one) The expr object doesn't work if we
launch Pd on startup ( init.d ) with nogui, BUT if we run it with -nogui in a command line over SSH it does.
could that be to do with permissions? If pd is started at boot via init.d I guess it is running as root? And when you run it over ssh, maybe you are running it as a normal user?
James
On 17/08/12 10:03, Duncan Speakman wrote:
Sam, we've been building and developing Pd on the gumstix embedded platform recently. I'm also running on a Mac so I can give you some of the knowledge I've learnt (it's been an uphill struggle for us too!) which may also apply to working on the Pi.
- As Andy said you can use ssh to run pd remotely. You need to have
installed Xcode on your mac, then use X11 and then log in as Andy describes. You can then run it just by typing pd, but don't forget your flags! we're currently using pd -alsa -nomidi -audiobuf 25 -r 22050 -blocksize 128 Tweaking all these will help!
- The gui can be pretty slow this way so I generally build the patches
on my mac locally, then copy them over to see how the processor on the Gumstix handles them.
- couple of bugs we found when trying to run pd with -nogui
- tables and delread objects behave badly unless you delay turning on
the dsp. So in the patch that opens with no gui put a 1 or sec delay after a loadbang to turn on the dsp.
I found the loadbang workaround doesn't always fix the no sound problem with -gui. This patch (which I posted to pd-dev in April) does:
http://chrissie.fedorapeople.org/pd-nogui-startup.patch
- (this is the really weird one) The expr object doesn't work if we
launch Pd on startup ( init.d ) with nogui, BUT if we run it with -nogui in a command line over SSH it does.
- we're running a custom build of Ubuntu, we had to do this to get the
built in audio and outputs on the Gumstix to work. not sure how this is on the Pi. I'll get Tim to publish it soon anyway.
Chrissie
This seems reasonable to me... I'm trying it out :)
Miller
I found the loadbang workaround doesn't always fix the no sound problem with -gui. This patch (which I posted to pd-dev in April) does:
http://chrissie.fedorapeople.org/pd-nogui-startup.patch
- (this is the really weird one) The expr object doesn't work if we
launch Pd on startup ( init.d ) with nogui, BUT if we run it with -nogui in a command line over SSH it does.
- we're running a custom build of Ubuntu, we had to do this to get the
built in audio and outputs on the Gumstix to work. not sure how this is on the Pi. I'll get Tim to publish it soon anyway.
Chrissie
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On 17.8.2012, at 11:03 , Duncan Speakman wrote:
You need to have installed Xcode on your mac,
why would you need that?
then use X11
X11 is an application which can be found under "Optional Installs" of the Mac OS X system disk. Just start "Optional Installs.mpkg" and select X11. At least I can say that for OS X versions 10.5 - 10.6.8
If that's not the case get it from here: http://xquartz.macosforge.org/trac/wiki/WikiStart It's the software Apple bundled and it's more up to date anyway.
and then log in as Andy describes. You can then run it just by typing pd, but don't forget your flags! we're currently using pd -alsa -nomidi -audiobuf 25 -r 22050 -blocksize 128 Tweaking all these will help!
- The gui can be pretty slow this way so I generally build the patches
on my mac locally, then copy them over to see how the processor on the Gumstix handles them.
Actually on the RPi the GUI is quite ok! In fact I found myself altering patches (for tests) on the RPi and then need to copy back the improved patches and abstractions to my library on the Mac. I still don't have any HDMI hardware, so I just can check that elsewhere. Yesterday I loaded some of the bigger patches using the RPi standalone using an HDMI screen and editing was quite fine. In reality a performance test running the patch under it's real conditions is inevitable anyway! The system load changes in any case, regardless wether it's via remote or natively controlled. The only annoying thing is the noise the audio output (analogue as via HDMI) generates when moving mouse, windows etc. According to Miller it might have to do with priorities. (see below) Also, running that via X11 has other implications: GEM does work with X11 on the Mac since the GLX is available, where as (currently) it doesn't natively. Consider network traffic as a load to the RPi! Fast changing gui-elements slow down this little machine!
- couple of bugs we found when trying to run pd with -nogui
- tables and delread objects behave badly unless you delay turning on
the dsp. So in the patch that opens with no gui put a 1 or sec delay after a loadbang to turn on the dsp.
I ran into such a thing and apparently it's not just on this platform. http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2012-08/097279.html
- (this is the really weird one) The expr object doesn't work if we
launch Pd on startup ( init.d ) with nogui, BUT if we run it with -nogui in a command line over SSH it does.
on the RPi or Gumstix? As James pointed out, it may be a permission problem, or maybe an environment problem.
- we're running a custom build of Ubuntu, we had to do this to get the
built in audio and outputs on the Gumstix to work. not sure how this is on the Pi.
Audio is different on the RPi. HDMI is fine, analogue is a pain. As Pierre pointed out recently it's just a simple filtered PWM output, just good enough to recognise the signal.
I'd be very interested to get a simple USB Audio-dongle working, since there's also no audio input available, this could solve some issues (and potentially raise others).
Michael.
-- nonconform? noiseconform: http://blauwurf.at http://soundcloud.com/noiseconformist
You need to have installed Xcode on your mac,]
why would you need that?
do you know i cannot actually remember! for some reason when we were first setting this stuff up x11 wouldn't open the gui properly, but we installed xcode and then it did.
- (this is the really weird one) The expr object doesn't work if we
launch Pd on startup ( init.d ) with nogui, BUT if we run it with -nogui in a command line over SSH it does.
on the RPi or Gumstix? As James pointed out, it may be a permission problem, or maybe an environment problem.
still unexplained. we're logging in as root via ssh as well.
Audio is different on the RPi. HDMI is fine, analogue is a pain. As Pierre pointed out recently it's just a simple filtered PWM output, just good enough to recognise the signal.
is there an HDMI audio input too? that would make the Pi quite appealing for what we're doing
I'd be very interested to get a simple USB Audio-dongle working, since there's also no audio input available, this could solve some issues (and potentially raise others).
we used the Griffin iMic really successfully (and you get pretty clean audio) although the extra board just made the unit too cumbersome for our needs.
On 08/17/2012 08:46 AM, Pierre Massat wrote:
Just a thought : wouldn't it be useful to create a pd-Raspberrypi@iem.at mailto:pd-Raspberrypi@iem.at address ? I get the feeling that there will be more and more messages about this new platform which may not necessarily be interesting to pure Pd users.
hmm, i don't have a problem with creating another mailing list, but i would like to keep in mind:
intrinsically related to the rpi. e.g. this thread "textual pd primer", is really about running Pd on a headless machine, which is more universal than an rpi.
that are not necessarily interesting for "pure Pd users"...but then, what is this "pure" thing?
from "pd-list": in 2012 we have a total of about 22 mails on that list (so it's virtually unused), whereas there are still "[OT]" mails on Pd-list, and i don't see a real reason why to ban the occassional OT mail from it. the rpi is a relatively new thing and people who recently received there copy, start running Pd on it. hence we had a couple of rpi-related mails in the last few weeks. i expect this to go back to "normal" pretty soon.
but again, if a sufficient number of people demand a mailinglist for RPiD, i will happily create one.
fgmadr IOhannes
On 18.8.2012, at 21:00 , IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
On 08/17/2012 08:46 AM, Pierre Massat wrote:
Just a thought : wouldn't it be useful to create a pd-Raspberrypi@iem.at mailto:pd-Raspberrypi@iem.at address ? I get the feeling that there will be more and more messages about this new platform which may not necessarily be interesting to pure Pd users.
hmm, i don't have a problem with creating another mailing list, but i would like to keep in mind:
many questions that arise in the context of the rpi really are not intrinsically related to the rpi. e.g. this thread "textual pd primer", is really about running Pd on a headless machine, which is more universal than an rpi.
there are a lot of questions (e.g. how to open midi-files) on topics that are not necessarily interesting for "pure Pd users"...but then, what is this "pure" thing?
in retrospect i consider it a mistake to have split the "pd-ot" list from "pd-list": in 2012 we have a total of about 22 mails on that list (so it's virtually unused), whereas there are still "[OT]" mails on Pd-list, and i don't see a real reason why to ban the occassional OT mail from it.
the rpi is a relatively new thing and people who recently received there copy, start running Pd on it. hence we had a couple of rpi-related mails in the last few weeks. i expect this to go back to "normal" pretty soon.
but again, if a sufficient number of people demand a mailinglist for RPiD, i will happily create one.
it depends on my current projects how close I am to a particular mailing list like this one. So it keeps changing over time. What I learned is that quite often the quality of the answer(s) of a seemingly hardware- or OS-specific question benefit(s) from the expertise of many, sometimes even more when the inputs are somewhat unrelated to the subject. I think hardware/OS discussions can take place everywhere and in this case it's the other way round, i.e. how to get the maximum out of a minimalistic machine. Also Miller's interes in some parts of the thread certainly is not just sentient to ancient times, it points us to specific problems which don't or just rarely occur within a 'standard' environment (i.e. relatively powerful machine with a full blown OS). In exchange those corrections of problems can help virtually everybody, issues of system optimisation and e.g. unattended and/or headless operation are evident everywhere. Also the input of parties not involved in small system applications can contribute valuable information, so a split of the mailing lists potentially may cut off some valuable stream of knowledge and experience. just my 2c - Michael.
-- hear the colours of noise: http://blauwurf.at http://soundcloud.com/noiseconformist
On 18.8.2012, at 21:00 , IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
- in retrospect i consider it a mistake to have split the "pd-ot" list from "pd-list": in 2012 we have a total of about 22 mails on that list (so it's virtually unused), whereas there are still "[OT]" mails on Pd-list, and i don't see a real reason why to ban the occassional OT mail from it.
Although I'm subscribed to all Pd-lists I almost missed some interesting discussion on Pd-OT (hey Ed! ). I just had a look only because you mentioned that. Just out of an impulse I'd like to suggest to close this OT-list and simply follow the netiquette of proper tagging. another 2c, Michael. ;-)
-- nonconform? noiseconform: http://blauwurf.at http://soundcloud.com/noiseconformist
Quoting Michael Zacherl sdiy-mz01@blauwurf.info:
Although I'm subscribed to all Pd-lists I almost missed some
interesting discussion on Pd-OT (hey Ed! ). I just had a look only because you mentioned that. Just out of an impulse I'd like to suggest to close this OT-list and
simply follow the netiquette of proper tagging. another 2c, Michael. ;-)
i was thinking of simply redirecting all mails for pd-ot to "pd-list"
with an added "[ot]" prefix.
but then it didn't seem to be so important and i ended up doing more
fun things.
fgmasdr IOhannes
OK, it all makes sense, I just thought some list members might get tired of reading 100 messages about the RPi. But yes, it might just as well go back to normal in a few days (though in my case I seriously doubt it :) ).
Cheers,
Pierre.
2012/8/19 zmoelnig@iem.at
Quoting Michael Zacherl sdiy-mz01@blauwurf.info:
Although I'm subscribed to all Pd-lists I almost missed some interesting
discussion on Pd-OT (hey Ed! ). I just had a look only because you mentioned that. Just out of an impulse I'd like to suggest to close this OT-list and simply follow the netiquette of proper tagging. another 2c, Michael. ;-)
i was thinking of simply redirecting all mails for pd-ot to "pd-list" with an added "[ot]" prefix. but then it didn't seem to be so important and i ended up doing more fun things.
fgmasdr IOhannes
______________________________**_________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/** listinfo/pd-list http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On 19.8.2012, at 12:15 , Pierre Massat wrote:
OK, it all makes sense, I just thought some list members might get tired of reading 100 messages about the RPi. But yes, it might just as well go back to normal in a few days (though in my case I seriously doubt it :) ).
in fact this can and does happen with any topic! For instance, I think I'll not have an application for libPD for the time being, but I wouldn't say 'never'. This happens everywhere and the traffic here is not particularly high, so far. ;-) YMMV of course.
2012/8/19 zmoelnig@iem.at
Quoting Michael Zacherl sdiy-mz01@blauwurf.info:
Although I'm subscribed to all Pd-lists I almost missed some interesting discussion on Pd-OT (hey Ed! ). I just had a look only because you mentioned that. Just out of an impulse I'd like to suggest to close this OT-list and simply follow the netiquette of proper tagging. another 2c, Michael. ;-)
i was thinking of simply redirecting all mails for pd-ot to "pd-list" with an added "[ot]" prefix. but then it didn't seem to be so important and i ended up doing more fun things.
fgmasdr IOhannes
-- nonconform? noiseconform: http://blauwurf.at http://soundcloud.com/noiseconformist
Hey Andy
Pure data text files are not human readable, this is a simple fact of their existence, while you can tell what an object is and where it is on the canvas (although subpatches make even this difficult), the objects and inlets/outlets for wires are numeric, and you have to add anything new at the end of the file to avoid them pointing to the wrong place.
I have come across this library for ruby https://github.com/nagachika/ruby-puredata/, which will remember objects by name and hopefully would be usable to make some pure data work in text. Although I've never gotten into it, so I don't know if it will be of any use.
https://github.com/nagachika/ruby-puredata/
Andrew
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:58:07 +0100 From: padawan12@obiwannabe.co.uk To: sam.raker@gmail.com CC: pd-list@iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] Textual pd primer
I guess this is a case of working out best practices for development.
Nobody actually develops Pd in text mode, but gettin things running in an embedded way involves a good deal less graphics and can be intimidating or confusing at first.
If you don't want the RPi set up with mouse, kbd and monitor like a full system, it's rather like working on other embedded development systems, you need to see the board as a target host, and your local machine as the development (client).
One way is to work on a laptop or desktop, and the ftp/scp them accross to the target board.
But probably most useful is to use X windows to ssh
ssh -Y -l user address.of.my.rpi
and then just start Pd, which will seem to run on your main machine.
I sense some kind of Raspberry Pi and Pd workshop in the coming weeks. maybe best developmnt practices and tips will be an outcme of that meeting.
best, Andy
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 10:42:47AM -0400, Sam Raker wrote:
Hi guys, Longtime listener, first time caller. I was wondering if there's a good intro to text-only pd. I just got a raspberry pi, and I've heard a lot of chatter about how the -nogui flag solves a lot of weird dsp problems &c, plus it'd be nice not to have to waste a USB port plugging in a mouse as well as a keyboard/midi keyboard/sound card/m-audio box/etc. Plus my main comp is a mac, and I'm worried making my patches on my Mac and then getting them onto my pi will be a pain in the b.
I've seen people say stuff like, "oh, just make a patch and look at it with a text editor and figure it out," but that's a bit over my head.
Thoughts?
-sam _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
It looks fun for Ruby peeps Andrew, though not sure what advantage that gives over FUDI.
On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 09:41:01AM +0100, Andrew Faraday wrote:
I'm not sure, either. I've never really gotten around to running it. But it does seem to have an advantage on pd text files in that you can 'name' pd objects as ruby objects. So you can make it usable.
not sure what FUDI, is, but it may well be a better solution.
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 15:15:52 +0100 From: padawan12@obiwannabe.co.uk To: jbturgid@hotmail.com CC: sam.raker@gmail.com; pd-list@iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] Textual pd primer
It looks fun for Ruby peeps Andrew, though not sure what advantage that gives over FUDI.
On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 09:41:01AM +0100, Andrew Faraday wrote: