Dear 'mickfuzz', on behalf of The Pd community, I'm getting in touch with you (on this email copied to the Pd-list) in order for us to discuss the future of Pd's FLOSS Manuals as a community. Many of us would like to work on a revision of this manual or maybe, in fact, use a whole new platform for tutorials.
For reference, please check an earlier thread on the email list https://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2021-05/129652.html
It is our understanding that the FLOSS Manuals, as it is, it's very outdated and should be archived for historical purposes. It is a manual based on Pd-extended. In fact, there is already an archived version of the manual here: http://archive.flossmanuals.net/pure-data/ Right now, the new FLOSS Manual that you seem to have created and maintain is just the same as the archived version, see: http://write.flossmanuals.net/pure-data/introduction2/
Again, one idea is to just delete this, keep the archived version, and we work on a new one somewhere else. This is because I, for one, can't even create a new account on FLOSS to start working on it. I tried getting in touch to create a new account and nothing happened.
Please get back to the Pd list so we can discuss what we should and could do as a community.
If for some reason we don't hear from you and the new version of the manual stays as it (the same as the archived version), we'll disconsider this new version/link in puredata.info and just keep a link to the archived version and work on new similar tutorials as a community somewhere else.
thanks Alex
A follow up to the Pd-list. This wasn't all too easy and it was a bit clumsy, but I gave my best as an internet stalker and was able to find information on who 'micckfuzz' is, where he teaches, his work email, and got a response. Long story short: I'm now able to edit the FLOSS Manuals book!
But seriously, besides its tutorial (many of which I also have problems with, not to mention how outdated they are), I just think we need to forget about a second and parallel Manual on the wild and bring things to Pd's actual manual.
I'll see now how to invite others to this.
Anyway, we have a new github page where we're discussing documentation things, for those interested, see https://github.com/pure-data/pddp/issues/22
cheers!
Em sáb., 20 de nov. de 2021 às 21:10, Alexandre Torres Porres < porres@gmail.com> escreveu:
Dear 'mickfuzz', on behalf of The Pd community, I'm getting in touch with you (on this email copied to the Pd-list) in order for us to discuss the future of Pd's FLOSS Manuals as a community. Many of us would like to work on a revision of this manual or maybe, in fact, use a whole new platform for tutorials.
For reference, please check an earlier thread on the email list https://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2021-05/129652.html
It is our understanding that the FLOSS Manuals, as it is, it's very outdated and should be archived for historical purposes. It is a manual based on Pd-extended. In fact, there is already an archived version of the manual here: http://archive.flossmanuals.net/pure-data/ Right now, the new FLOSS Manual that you seem to have created and maintain is just the same as the archived version, see: http://write.flossmanuals.net/pure-data/introduction2/
Again, one idea is to just delete this, keep the archived version, and we work on a new one somewhere else. This is because I, for one, can't even create a new account on FLOSS to start working on it. I tried getting in touch to create a new account and nothing happened.
Please get back to the Pd list so we can discuss what we should and could do as a community.
If for some reason we don't hear from you and the new version of the manual stays as it (the same as the archived version), we'll disconsider this new version/link in puredata.info and just keep a link to the archived version and work on new similar tutorials as a community somewhere else.
thanks Alex
Em seg., 22 de nov. de 2021 às 09:36, Alexandre Torres Porres < porres@gmail.com> escreveu:
Anyway, we have a new github page where we're discussing documentation things, for those interested, see https://github.com/pure-data/pddp/issues/22
Em seg., 22 de nov. de 2021 às 09:41, Alexandre Torres Porres < porres@gmail.com> escreveu:
A follow up to the Pd-list. This wasn't all too easy and it was a bit clumsy, but I gave my best as an internet stalker and was able to find information on who 'micckfuzz' is, where he teaches, his work email, and got a response. Long story short: I'm now able to edit the FLOSS Manuals book!
But seriously, besides its tutorial (many of which I also have problems with, not to mention how outdated they are), I just think we need to forget about a second and parallel Manual on the wild and bring things to Pd's actual manual.
Hello, congratulations! and i disagree to this point, so i want to say why it is good to have a second pd "manual".
First of all, Floss manuals, while the name is "manuals" and you already said on the other e-mail that it is more a place with tutorials than an actual manual to pd, it is a place that don't live inside pd (i mean, it isn't in the pd sources), and this has potential of documenting things that doesn't need to live with pd.
For example, we can talk properly about pd forks, the differences between them, we can teach people how to install some fork, we can create tutorials about externals, and put content that could make people easily choose some external for something specific that they want to do in their projects (this is something that would also make the experience with deken better, people could go to floss and search for some topic, and find which externals would need to use following some tutorial, and then download them from deken following instructions, this would be great for people arriving at pd!).
A second pd place would be great to put tutorials where the community can create and teach all sort of things, from basic examples of doing a simple, but complete project, explain some concept going from the start to end doing it in practice, gather information pointing to other sites with other tutorials (think about "read more:" and put some links to other places explaining the same subject, some relevant discussions on pd forum, relevant e-mails, maybe even links without using pd at all, why not?).
I see potential in having such a place for the community. This simplifies the scope of the official manual to explain how pd works, make a reference for the objects and also a good start for beginners on how to use the software, and point floss manuals as a place to see and learn more, and contribute with more content too.
Having said that, i think we should update floss, make it point to the official manual whenever possible to read about the references, and make it work together with the official manual. A truly beginner in computer music would benefit to learn basic concepts using pd, and maybe the pd manual isn't the right place for that, but a tutorial using pd to teach these basic concepts would work along with learning how to use the software, and i think floss is the place for that type of information.
I'll see now how to invite others to this.
Anyway, we have a new github page where we're discussing documentation things, for those interested, see https://github.com/pure-data/pddp/issues/22
cheers!
Em sáb., 20 de nov. de 2021 às 21:10, Alexandre Torres Porres < porres@gmail.com> escreveu:
Dear 'mickfuzz', on behalf of The Pd community, I'm getting in touch with you (on this email copied to the Pd-list) in order for us to discuss the future of Pd's FLOSS Manuals as a community. Many of us would like to work on a revision of this manual or maybe, in fact, use a whole new platform for tutorials.
For reference, please check an earlier thread on the email list https://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2021-05/129652.html
It is our understanding that the FLOSS Manuals, as it is, it's very outdated and should be archived for historical purposes. It is a manual based on Pd-extended. In fact, there is already an archived version of the manual here: http://archive.flossmanuals.net/pure-data/ Right now, the new FLOSS Manual that you seem to have created and maintain is just the same as the archived version, see: http://write.flossmanuals.net/pure-data/introduction2/
Again, one idea is to just delete this, keep the archived version, and we work on a new one somewhere else. This is because I, for one, can't even create a new account on FLOSS to start working on it. I tried getting in touch to create a new account and nothing happened.
Please get back to the Pd list so we can discuss what we should and could do as a community.
If for some reason we don't hear from you and the new version of the manual stays as it (the same as the archived version), we'll disconsider this new version/link in puredata.info and just keep a link to the archived version and work on new similar tutorials as a community somewhere else.
thanks Alex
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
hello,
On 22.11.21 14:36, José de Abreu wrote:
Em seg., 22 de nov. de 2021 às 09:41, Alexandre Torres Porres <porres@gmail.com mailto:porres@gmail.com> escreveu:
A follow up to the Pd-list. This wasn't all too easy and it was a bit clumsy, but I gave my best as an internet stalker and was able to find information on who 'micckfuzz' is, where he teaches, his work email, and got a response. Long story short: I'm now able to edit the FLOSS Manuals book! But seriously, besides its tutorial (many of which I also have problems with, not to mention how outdated they are), I just think we need to forget about a second and parallel Manual on the wild and bring things to Pd's actual manual.
For example, we can talk properly about pd forks, the differences between them, we can teach people how to install some fork, we can create tutorials about externals, and put content that could make people easily choose some external for something specific that they want to do in their projects (this is something that would also make the experience with deken better, people could go to floss and search for some topic, and find which externals would need to use following some tutorial, and then download them from deken following instructions, this would be great for people arriving at pd!).
there is the whole meta-angle, true, but most important, a manual living on the www would be internet-searchengine-findable!
cheers,
ub
Em seg., 22 de nov. de 2021 às 11:14, ub ub@xdv.org escreveu:
a manual living on the www would be internet-searchengine-findable!
Pd's actual manual actually already lives on the internet: http://msp.ucsd.edu/Pd_documentation/index.htm
Hi all,
I'm very excited and motivated to help on this/these projects. I want to share this resource for thinking about documentation: https://documentation.divio.com/
Basically, we could think of our documentation as split between four different things: Tutorials and Explanations (which are maybe more useful for beginners, students) and How-To Guides and Reference (maybe more useful for advanced users, developers, and so on).
In thinking about what goes where, whether that be internal documentation, PD's HTML manual, FLOSS manuals, resources on puredata.info, etc., we should be thinking about the above four-part division. Or at least, something along those lines.
A book like Kreidler's loadbang is a great example of Tutorial and Explanation. The FLOSS manuals lean more towards How-To Guides. The internal help files are closer to Reference. We don't have to follow these exact distinctions, but I think that making *some* distinctions will help us as we sort where different kinds of information need to go.
Alexandre--I'm happy to put all this into an issue on the github, or add it on to an existing one, if you think that would help.
Best, Matt
On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 8:36 AM Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com wrote:
Em seg., 22 de nov. de 2021 às 11:14, ub ub@xdv.org escreveu:
a manual living on the www would be internet-searchengine-findable!
Pd's actual manual actually already lives on the internet: http://msp.ucsd.edu/Pd_documentation/index.htm _______________________________________________ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Em seg., 22 de nov. de 2021 às 12:22, Matthew Houston < matthewshouston@gmail.com> escreveu:
Alexandre--I'm happy to put all this into an issue on the github, or add it on to an existing one, if you think that would help.
I think this is still to vague for a github issue, but you can go ahead ;) let us just "try" to be more objective over there, and issues can get reissued so it's not a big deal to close one and start a new one from where the discussion led us to. It'd be nice to have more parallel discussions on this list as well.
cheers
On 22.11.21 15:34, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
Em seg., 22 de nov. de 2021 às 11:14, ub <ub@xdv.org mailto:ub@xdv.org> escreveu:
a manual living on the www would be internet-searchengine-findable!
Pd's actual manual actually already lives on the internet: http://msp.ucsd.edu/Pd_documentation/index.htm http://msp.ucsd.edu/Pd_documentation/index.htm
but it does not usually come up in search results, even for quite specific terms like "puredata osc" or "puredata phasor", where as flossmanuals quite consistently do. that might shift of course if they were taken offline.
there seems to be a problem with those results, by the way, because they point to write.flossmanuals.net and produce a redirect to themselves, causing an error in the browser "The page isn’t redirecting properly". that might be temporary.
my point is, that, especially for beginners, search engines are one main gateway to information, so it makes sense to consider that.
cheers,
ub
Em seg., 22 de nov. de 2021 às 15:28, ub ub@xdv.org escreveu:
but it does not usually come up in search results
yeah, you're right, but I don't know how to improve search engines, they may prefer to refer to old, outdated and dead links.
But anyway, the manual is there and it also comes with the software!!! People should easily find it in the software menu itself without the need of an internet connection. But it is also online, and as far as searching for pd related stuff goes, puredata.info comes on all the time. It is the first result that I get, by the way if I search for "pure data manual" on google.
See what you get https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=%22pure+data+manual%22
I guess we can use put more up to date information and resources in puredata.info as it is the central community page and comes around first.
cheers
Em seg., 22 de nov. de 2021 às 16:05, Alexandre Torres Porres < porres@gmail.com> escreveu:
See what you get https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=%22pure+data+manual%22
funny, if I search it myself, I get puredata.info, if I click on the above link I get FLOSS Manuals first... the archived one (not the one I'm getting access to right now), which is https://archive.flossmanuals.net/pure-data/_booki/pure-data/pure-data.pdf
And second I get puredata.info => https://puredata.info/docs/manuals which points first of to the official Miller's Manual...
And third I get the link to writefloss that gives us an error...
I don't know what to do with the archived floss manuals thing. I'll see if I can get it deleted, and then we have the new FLOSS Manual one that I'm getting access to and want to rename to 'Pd-extended' to avoid confusion. But it's funny how this new one doesn't show up...
cheers
Em seg., 22 de nov. de 2021 às 10:36, José de Abreu abreubacelar@gmail.com escreveu:
I see potential in having such a place for the community.
I see your point and a while ago I also mentioned how Csound has a FLOSS Manual that doesn't conflict to what they call 'the canonical manual'. Something like that can happen and that's what actually happened back then (and I was part of it as one of the contributors. Now, that looks good in theory. In practice, I don't believe in it so much, hence, the FLOSS Manual has been abandoned now for so many years, none of the original authors were there to keep it alive (me included), I spoke to Derek (one of the main forces behind this, who doesn't follow the list anymore) and he had no login or will to get back on this (he considered 'timed served' and I agree and thank him for his services).
Anyway, where I'm getting at is that we might not pull it off... I brought this up in may here, also into the Pd Forum and on the facebook group, nothing happened. It stayed in my to do list until I finally tried getting access...
And I, for one, am much more concerned now in helping with Pd's manual. I wrote a new section on managing externals, for instance. Others have contributed nicely to it. I guess we can start and focus, as a community, to help with Pd's documentation first, before envisioning such ambitious side/complementary projects.
This is why I'm just hoping to change the title of this FLOSS Manuals to 'Pd-extended', put a remark on its introduction that it is a historical document, and leave it at that.
If people want to still join forces and work on a new one from scratch, great. I can see if I can also join in, awesome, but that's something else.
For example, we can talk properly about pd forks, the differences between them, we can teach people how to install some fork, we can create tutorials about externals, and put content that could make people easily choose some external for something specific that they want to do in their projects (this is something that would also make the experience with deken better, people could go to floss and search for some topic, and find which externals would need to use following some tutorial, and then download them from deken following instructions, this would be great for people arriving at pd!).
A second pd place would be great to put tutorials where the community can create and teach all sort of things, from basic examples of doing a simple, but complete project, explain some concept going from the start to end doing it in practice, gather information pointing to other sites with other tutorials (think about "read more:" and put some links to other places explaining the same subject, some relevant discussions on pd forum, relevant e-mails, maybe even links without using pd at all, why not?).
By the way, we also have puredata.info which is also in desperate need of attention and updates, and could be used to do a lot of what you propose here. And there is no point in starting a new parallel project that no one knows if it'll succeed or not.
Just like Pd's actual manual, I think working on puredata.info is also a priority for the community. The current status of puredata.info is also a result of lack of community engagement. It is great that people are showing interest in new places and channels like 'Discord' now, but this also feels to me like digression and a way to decentralize and create parallel small communities instead of a bigger and more cohesive group.
This email list, the github repository, the puredata.info site should be the place anyone interested in contributing to Pd must come and gather around. But of course, everyone is free to do whatever they want. Start a new Tutorial on FLOSS Manuals or wherever else. Create a youtube channel, a tiktok account, a wiki, a new fork of Pd, but all I can say is that this decentralized model hasn't been sustainable for us as a community.
cheers
Hi folks, as I've been saying, I was able to get involved with FLOSS Manuals and edit the current available book. It has been now renamed to 'Pd-extended', which I think solves the issues and confusion it generated. I also edited the introduction to talk about Pura Data AND Pd-extended, say that Pd-extended has been abandoned and how the book is outdated but maintained for historical purposes. I also mention how many of its content can be applied into Pd Vanilla. We can think about how to improve this even more, but I consider the whole thing as settled.
Check the current book now: https://en.flossmanuals.net/pd-extended/_full/
I already edited the link in puredata.info under 'books about Pd https://puredata.info/docs/BooksAboutPd/' considering both versions (french too).
I will now see what to do about the archived version, if it can be deleted or not...
If anyone still thinks the FLOSS platform is a great and wonderful resource and idea to write yet a new documentation based on the current Vanilla and the old FLOSS Manual in english and other languages, that's cool and great. We can also consider another platform for something like that instead of FLOSS. Let's just coordinate this.
Again, I invite people to collaborate and discuss Pd documentation related stuff in https://github.com/pure-data/pddp
Cheers
Thanks for this - I think lots of people were getting confused, thinking Pd extended was Pd and then concluding the whole thing was unmaintained.
cheers Miller
On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 05:15:06PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
Hi folks, as I've been saying, I was able to get involved with FLOSS Manuals and edit the current available book. It has been now renamed to 'Pd-extended', which I think solves the issues and confusion it generated. I also edited the introduction to talk about Pura Data AND Pd-extended, say that Pd-extended has been abandoned and how the book is outdated but maintained for historical purposes. I also mention how many of its content can be applied into Pd Vanilla. We can think about how to improve this even more, but I consider the whole thing as settled.
Check the current book now: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.flossmanuals.net_pd-...
I already edited the link in puredata.info under 'books about Pd <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__puredata.info_docs_Book... >' considering both versions (french too).
I will now see what to do about the archived version, if it can be deleted or not...
If anyone still thinks the FLOSS platform is a great and wonderful resource and idea to write yet a new documentation based on the current Vanilla and the old FLOSS Manual in english and other languages, that's cool and great. We can also consider another platform for something like that instead of FLOSS. Let's just coordinate this.
Again, I invite people to collaborate and discuss Pd documentation related stuff in https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_pure-2Ddata_...
Cheers
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.puredata.info_lis...
Em seg., 22 de nov. de 2021 às 17:20, Miller Puckette msp@ucsd.edu escreveu:
Thanks for this - I think lots of people were getting confused, thinking Pd extended was Pd and then concluding the whole thing was unmaintained.
Exactly!!! I've seen many people on facebook confused like that :/
Ok, i will try to review all the floss manuals and use it as a start point to create another tutorial place updated for the forks used today, as soon as i have something i will share for people that want to contribute and help too. I also tried to create an account on puredata.info and will try to help there as well.
Em seg., 22 de nov. de 2021 às 17:17, Alexandre Torres Porres < porres@gmail.com> escreveu:
Hi folks, as I've been saying, I was able to get involved with FLOSS Manuals and edit the current available book. It has been now renamed to 'Pd-extended', which I think solves the issues and confusion it generated. I also edited the introduction to talk about Pura Data AND Pd-extended, say that Pd-extended has been abandoned and how the book is outdated but maintained for historical purposes. I also mention how many of its content can be applied into Pd Vanilla. We can think about how to improve this even more, but I consider the whole thing as settled.
Check the current book now: https://en.flossmanuals.net/pd-extended/_full/
I already edited the link in puredata.info under 'books about Pd https://puredata.info/docs/BooksAboutPd/' considering both versions (french too).
I will now see what to do about the archived version, if it can be deleted or not...
If anyone still thinks the FLOSS platform is a great and wonderful resource and idea to write yet a new documentation based on the current Vanilla and the old FLOSS Manual in english and other languages, that's cool and great. We can also consider another platform for something like that instead of FLOSS. Let's just coordinate this.
Again, I invite people to collaborate and discuss Pd documentation related stuff in https://github.com/pure-data/pddp
Cheers _______________________________________________ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
when i said forks, i mean different flavors, of course including vanilla, bad brain
Em seg., 22 de nov. de 2021 às 17:32, José de Abreu abreubacelar@gmail.com escreveu:
Ok, i will try to review all the floss manuals and use it as a start point to create another tutorial place updated for the forks used today, as soon as i have something i will share for people that want to contribute and help too. I also tried to create an account on puredata.info and will try to help there as well.
Em seg., 22 de nov. de 2021 às 17:17, Alexandre Torres Porres < porres@gmail.com> escreveu:
Hi folks, as I've been saying, I was able to get involved with FLOSS Manuals and edit the current available book. It has been now renamed to 'Pd-extended', which I think solves the issues and confusion it generated. I also edited the introduction to talk about Pura Data AND Pd-extended, say that Pd-extended has been abandoned and how the book is outdated but maintained for historical purposes. I also mention how many of its content can be applied into Pd Vanilla. We can think about how to improve this even more, but I consider the whole thing as settled.
Check the current book now: https://en.flossmanuals.net/pd-extended/_full/
I already edited the link in puredata.info under 'books about Pd https://puredata.info/docs/BooksAboutPd/' considering both versions (french too).
I will now see what to do about the archived version, if it can be deleted or not...
If anyone still thinks the FLOSS platform is a great and wonderful resource and idea to write yet a new documentation based on the current Vanilla and the old FLOSS Manual in english and other languages, that's cool and great. We can also consider another platform for something like that instead of FLOSS. Let's just coordinate this.
Again, I invite people to collaborate and discuss Pd documentation related stuff in https://github.com/pure-data/pddp
Cheers _______________________________________________ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list