Hello there. I'm interested in using PD. However, as someone who spends a lot of time with code, I'm actually a little afraid of the learning curve involved with the graphical programming language! I'd be much more comfortable creating my patches using, for example, a Python tool. Does such a programmatic PD patch generation tool exist? I can't imagine I'm the first person who's wanted such a thing. thanks, -Morgan
HI,
Morgan Packard wrote:
Hello there. I'm interested in using PD. However, as someone who spends a lot of time with code, I'm actually a little afraid of the learning curve involved with the graphical programming language! I'd be much more comfortable creating my patches using, for example, a Python tool. Does such a programmatic PD patch generation tool exist? I can't imagine I'm the first person who's wanted such a thing.
People will probably point you to csound or supercollider for your first statement... Anyway the curve is not really so steep, dataflow is of course a slightly different mindset, although if you are skilled at coding that will nevertheless prove benefical.
Regarding python, you might have a look at py/pyext [1]. I couldn't successfully have it setup in Ubuntu, because it is strongly tied to a particular python version. Something more 'flexible' IMHO would be nice, ideally running directly within pd would be really nice, even at the level of non-dsp abstractions to begin with (similarly to javscript in MAX)... But this doesn't seem to be of much interest currently.
Lorenzo
[1] http://puredata.info/Members/thomas/py/
thanks, -Morgan
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On Thu, Feb 03, 2011 at 09:04:18AM +0100, Lorenzo Sutton wrote:
HI,
Morgan Packard wrote:
Hello there. I'm interested in using PD. However, as someone who spends a lot of time with code, I'm actually a little afraid of the learning curve involved with the graphical programming language! I'd be much more comfortable creating my patches using, for example, a Python tool. Does such a programmatic PD patch generation tool exist? I can't imagine I'm the first person who's wanted such a thing.
People will probably point you to csound or supercollider for your first statement... Anyway the curve is not really so steep, dataflow is of course a slightly different mindset, although if you are skilled at coding that will nevertheless prove benefical.
Regarding python, you might have a look at py/pyext [1]. I couldn't successfully have it setup in Ubuntu, because it is strongly tied to a particular python version. Something more 'flexible' IMHO would be nice, ideally running directly within pd would be really nice, even at the level of non-dsp abstractions to begin with (similarly to javscript in MAX)... But this doesn't seem to be of much interest currently.
Lorenzo
You can write plug-in scripts in Tcl/Tk. Since 0.43 there is an official way of loading them .. though Miller disregards this feature.
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On 2011-02-03 09:37, errordeveloper@gmail.com wrote:
You can write plug-in scripts in Tcl/Tk. Since 0.43 there is an official way of loading them .. though Miller disregards this feature.
what makes you say something like that?
do you really think, that anything that miller totally dislikes, will make it into pd-vanilla?
fgmasdr IOhannes
On Thu, Feb 03, 2011 at 10:06:21AM +0100, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
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On 2011-02-03 09:37, errordeveloper@gmail.com wrote:
You can write plug-in scripts in Tcl/Tk. Since 0.43 there is an official way of loading them .. though Miller disregards this feature.
what makes you say something like that?
do you really think, that anything that miller totally dislikes, will make it into pd-vanilla?
sorry for not being very politically correct. When I asked Hans about what's heppening with the plugins, he said that Miller has an opinion about this feature to remain but no plugin code is being supplied in the git repository.
I mean to say that this could be made a better feature, though it is not even advertised.
perhaps there is just more work to be done to make the API usuable. Also, I think it would be quite streight forward to implement a gui-level simple [scrip] object .. it would be a kind of a fake object though and won't work without Tk gui ;( BUT making a Tk scriping fully avaliable for creating widgits would be really neat this way!
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On 2011-02-03 12:18, errordeveloper@gmail.com wrote:
sorry for not being very politically correct. When I asked Hans about what's heppening with the plugins, he said that Miller has an opinion about this feature to remain but no plugin code is being supplied in the git repository.
hmm, but Pd also provides an API for creating external objects, and still there are virtually no externals in the git repository nor in the releases ("virtually no" as compared to the number of externals you find in the pure-data svn or in the Pd-extended releases)
for me the entire idea about plugins is about not needing to distribute them with a small core applications.
fgmasdr IOhannes
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On Thu, Feb 03, 2011 at 01:02:19PM +0100, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
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On 2011-02-03 12:18, errordeveloper@gmail.com wrote:
sorry for not being very politically correct. When I asked Hans about what's heppening with the plugins, he said that Miller has an opinion about this feature to remain but no plugin code is being supplied in the git repository.
hmm, but Pd also provides an API for creating external objects, and still there are virtually no externals in the git repository nor in the releases ("virtually no" as compared to the number of externals you find in the pure-data svn or in the Pd-extended releases)
for me the entire idea about plugins is about not needing to distribute them with a small core applications.
IOhannes, in any case I didn't mean to argue with you on this subject. I just thought that one who pulls git repo may want to see a simple plugin example (the key biddings example could a decent pick BTW).
once again, I am sorry for spreading gossips ;(
fgmasdr IOhannes
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there's also pdlua, which is much easier to build than py. if you want to
learn lua, it works well. the package brings some example patches.
http://claudiusmaximus.goto10.org/cm/2008-06-19_pdlua-0.5_released.html
HI,
Morgan Packard wrote:
Hello there. I'm interested in using PD. However, as someone who spends a lot of
time with code, I'm actually a little afraid of the learning curve
involved with the graphical programming language! I'd be much more
comfortable creating my patches using, for example, a Python tool. Does
such a programmatic PD patch generation tool exist? I can't imagine I'm
the first person who's wanted such a thing.People will probably point you to csound or supercollider for your first
statement... Anyway the curve is not really so steep, dataflow is of
course a slightly different mindset, although if you are skilled at
coding that will nevertheless prove benefical.Regarding python, you might have a look at py/pyext [1]. I couldn't
successfully have it setup in Ubuntu, because it is strongly tied to a
particular python version. Something more 'flexible' IMHO would be nice,
ideally running directly within pd would be really nice, even at the
level of non-dsp abstractions to begin with (similarly to javscript in
MAX)... But this doesn't seem to be of much interest currently.Lorenzo
[1] http://puredata.info/Members/thomas/py/
thanks, -Morgan
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http://www.anticipaterecordings.com/releases/ANT_011/index.php iOS app Thicket
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Same synthesis capabilities, chuck or supercollider (less real-time, csound)Similar graphic capabilities... Processing Although I've got to agree. once you've gotten over infamiliarity the data-flow interface of Pd is definately one of it's greatest strengths. As with any language you've got to learn some syntax before learning to use it fluently. However, it's a good instant-use language. With the code operating in the same environment in which it's produced and edited. Meaning you can observe your code and debug without changing window, re-initialzing, compiling, bulding test methods or any other work-flow road-blocks like this. In short, the graphic interface is one of the great unique selling points of PD (and the rather more expensive maxMSP) and it's a valuable tool once you know how to use it. It's also worth noting that it is possible to edit pd patches in a text editor, however this is a set of instructions for the placement of objects on-screen and is definitely not human readable. Andrew
To: pd-list@iem.at; lsutton@libero.it Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 09:57:24 +0100 From: jmmmpais@googlemail.com Subject: Re: [PD] Are there alternative means of creating patches besides the graphical editor?
there's also pdlua, which is much easier to build than py. if you want to
learn lua, it works well. the package brings some example patches.
http://claudiusmaximus.goto10.org/cm/2008-06-19_pdlua-0.5_released.htmlHI,
Morgan Packard wrote:
Hello there. I'm interested in using PD. However, as someone who spends a lot of
time with code, I'm actually a little afraid of the learning curve
involved with the graphical programming language! I'd be much more
comfortable creating my patches using, for example, a Python tool. Does
such a programmatic PD patch generation tool exist? I can't imagine I'm
the first person who's wanted such a thing.People will probably point you to csound or supercollider for your first
statement... Anyway the curve is not really so steep, dataflow is of
course a slightly different mindset, although if you are skilled at
coding that will nevertheless prove benefical.Regarding python, you might have a look at py/pyext [1]. I couldn't
successfully have it setup in Ubuntu, because it is strongly tied to a
particular python version. Something more 'flexible' IMHO would be nice,
ideally running directly within pd would be really nice, even at the
level of non-dsp abstractions to begin with (similarly to javscript in
MAX)... But this doesn't seem to be of much interest currently.Lorenzo
[1] http://puredata.info/Members/thomas/py/
thanks, -Morgan
-- ================================ Web: http://www.morganpackard.com
Music/Art: Latest album: Moment Again Elsewhere
http://www.anticipaterecordings.com/releases/ANT_011/index.php iOS app Thicket
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/thicket/id364824621?mt=8available on
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On 2011-02-03 07:35, Morgan Packard wrote:
Hello there. I'm interested in using PD. However, as someone who spends a lot of time with code, I'm actually a little afraid of the learning curve involved with the graphical programming language!
well, i would say, that if you don't like graphical programming, then Pd is probably a not so good choice for you.
I'd be much more comfortable creating my patches using, for example, a Python tool. Does such a programmatic PD patch generation tool exist? I can't imagine I'm the first person who's wanted such a thing.
there are sure ways to programmatically create patches. from whatever environment you prefer. nevertheless you will need to understand how Pd works, in order to do such things, which will send you back to the start, where you need walk the steep hills of learning Pd.
just my 2¢.
fgmasdr IOhannes
PS: afaict, all the responses to your question mentioning "pdlua", "python", "tcl/tk" miss the point, as they talk about adding functionality to Pd with the help of text-based languages. (for unknown reasons "C" and derivatives was not mentioned). this allows you to do more things within the graphical patching environment, but it doesn't replace the graphical part.
PPS: i might as well miss the point
Thanks IOHannes, I'm interested in PD primarily as an audio engine embedded in iOS apps. For legal and technical reasons, most of the other obvious choices aren't viable for me. And thanks for your ps. You're correct that I'm not looking for ways to embed scripting into PD, I'm looking for a more script-based approach to creating PD patch files. Honestly, I'm a little surprised that this isn't a more common desire. I guess generally people who want to create patches with code simply migrate to SuperCollider or CSound or whatever. But neither of those is an option for me. -Morgan
On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 2:13 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig zmoelnig@iem.at wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2011-02-03 07:35, Morgan Packard wrote:
Hello there. I'm interested in using PD. However, as someone who spends a lot of time with code, I'm actually a little afraid of the learning curve involved
with
the graphical programming language!
well, i would say, that if you don't like graphical programming, then Pd is probably a not so good choice for you.
I'd be much more comfortable creating my patches using, for example, a Python tool. Does such a programmatic PD
patch
generation tool exist? I can't imagine I'm the first person who's wanted such a thing.
there are sure ways to programmatically create patches. from whatever environment you prefer. nevertheless you will need to understand how Pd works, in order to do such things, which will send you back to the start, where you need walk the steep hills of learning Pd.
just my 2¢.
fgmasdr IOhannes
PS: afaict, all the responses to your question mentioning "pdlua", "python", "tcl/tk" miss the point, as they talk about adding functionality to Pd with the help of text-based languages. (for unknown reasons "C" and derivatives was not mentioned). this allows you to do more things within the graphical patching environment, but it doesn't replace the graphical part.
PPS: i might as well miss the point -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
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Whoops, just realized I hadn't replied to the list:
It seems to me that there are two ways to maybe? accomplish what you're describing:
what I've explored fairly deeply is using the pd "internal messages" to create objects in a running patch from a python script over a socket connection. There's a library someone made that handles this that I can't remember the name of right now (anyone?) but I also wrote a basic thing here: https://github.com/virgildisgr4ce/PureeData
can you write the patch file from a script and then load it? If you haven't looked into it yet, the syntax is pretty basic.
±±±t3db0t
On Feb 3, 2011, at 11:40 AM, Morgan Packard wrote:
Thanks IOHannes, I'm interested in PD primarily as an audio engine embedded in iOS apps. For legal and technical reasons, most of the other obvious choices aren't viable for me. And thanks for your ps. You're correct that I'm not looking for ways to embed scripting into PD, I'm looking for a more script-based approach to creating PD patch files. Honestly, I'm a little surprised that this isn't a more common desire. I guess generally people who want to create patches with code simply migrate to SuperCollider or CSound or whatever. But neither of those is an option for me. -Morgan
On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 2:13 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig zmoelnig@iem.at wrote: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2011-02-03 07:35, Morgan Packard wrote:
Hello there. I'm interested in using PD. However, as someone who spends a lot of time with code, I'm actually a little afraid of the learning curve involved with the graphical programming language!
well, i would say, that if you don't like graphical programming, then Pd is probably a not so good choice for you.
I'd be much more comfortable creating my patches using, for example, a Python tool. Does such a programmatic PD patch generation tool exist? I can't imagine I'm the first person who's wanted such a thing.
there are sure ways to programmatically create patches. from whatever environment you prefer. nevertheless you will need to understand how Pd works, in order to do such things, which will send you back to the start, where you need walk the steep hills of learning Pd.
just my 2¢.
fgmasdr IOhannes
PS: afaict, all the responses to your question mentioning "pdlua", "python", "tcl/tk" miss the point, as they talk about adding functionality to Pd with the help of text-based languages. (for unknown reasons "C" and derivatives was not mentioned). this allows you to do more things within the graphical patching environment, but it doesn't replace the graphical part.
PPS: i might as well miss the point -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
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And I forgot too! (along with accidentally writing "hit tedbot" instead of "hi tedbot" in my original reply. I definitely meant the latter, not the former!)
Hi Tedb0t, #2 is definitely what I'm interested in. It does look pretty simple to roll my own. But if someone had already created a nice tool to do this, I'd prefer that. In particular, it seems that putting proper constraints on the final file would be nice. For example, the gui editor doesn't permit me to connect the output of an "osc" to the input of a "bang". It would be nice to have a similar limitation in the hypothetical script-based tool we're discussing. -Morgan
On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Tedb0t lists@liminastudio.com wrote:
Whoops, just realized I hadn't replied to the list:
It seems to me that there are two ways to maybe? accomplish what you're describing:
- what I've explored fairly deeply is using the pd "internal messages" to
create objects in a running patch from a python script over a socket connection. There's a library someone made that handles this that I can't remember the name of right now (anyone?) but I also wrote a basic thing here: https://github.com/virgildisgr4ce/PureeData
- can you write the patch file from a script and then load it? If you
haven't looked into it yet, the syntax is pretty basic.
±±±t3db0t
On Feb 3, 2011, at 11:40 AM, Morgan Packard wrote:
Thanks IOHannes, I'm interested in PD primarily as an audio engine embedded in iOS apps. For legal and technical reasons, most of the other obvious choices aren't viable for me. And thanks for your ps. You're correct that I'm not looking for ways to embed scripting into PD, I'm looking for a more script-based approach to creating PD patch files. Honestly, I'm a little surprised that this isn't a more common desire. I guess generally people who want to create patches with code simply migrate to SuperCollider or CSound or whatever. But neither of those is an option for me. -Morgan
On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 2:13 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig zmoelnig@iem.atwrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2011-02-03 07:35, Morgan Packard wrote:
Hello there. I'm interested in using PD. However, as someone who spends a lot of time with code, I'm actually a little afraid of the learning curve involved
with
the graphical programming language!
well, i would say, that if you don't like graphical programming, then Pd is probably a not so good choice for you.
I'd be much more comfortable creating my patches using, for example, a Python tool. Does such a programmatic PD
patch
generation tool exist? I can't imagine I'm the first person who's wanted such a thing.
there are sure ways to programmatically create patches. from whatever environment you prefer. nevertheless you will need to understand how Pd works, in order to do such things, which will send you back to the start, where you need walk the steep hills of learning Pd.
just my 2¢.
fgmasdr IOhannes
PS: afaict, all the responses to your question mentioning "pdlua", "python", "tcl/tk" miss the point, as they talk about adding functionality to Pd with the help of text-based languages. (for unknown reasons "C" and derivatives was not mentioned). this allows you to do more things within the graphical patching environment, but it doesn't replace the graphical part.
PPS: i might as well miss the point -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
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2011/2/3 Morgan Packard morgan@morganpackard.com:
SuperCollider or CSound or whatever. But neither of those is an option for me.
For legal reasons? If it's your own project, consider the option charging for your work, you just have to make your modifications available. Or because they don't on phones? I'm not sure it's stable enough, but take a look in the SC ports for android and iphone.
Load a PD patch in a text editor and take a look. Ed
Metastudio 4 for Pure Data - coming soon! Metastudio 3 still available at http://sharktracks.co.uk/puredata
From: Morgan Packard morgan@morganpackard.com To: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Thu, 3 February, 2011 6:35:19 Subject: [PD] Are there alternative means of creating patches besides the graphical editor?
Hello there. I'm interested in using PD. However, as someone who spends a lot of time with code, I'm actually a little afraid of the learning curve involved with the graphical programming language! I'd be much more comfortable creating my patches using, for example, a Python tool. Does such a programmatic PD patch generation tool exist? I can't imagine I'm the first person who's wanted such a thing. thanks, -Morgan
Thanks Ed. Yes, it is indeed simple-looking. But simply editing that file by hand doesn't do me much good. I'd want the power of scripting -- loops, variables, conditionals, to generate such a thing for me. -Morgan
On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Ed Kelly morph_2016@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Load a PD patch in a text editor and take a look. Ed
Metastudio 4 for Pure Data - coming soon! Metastudio 3 still available at http://sharktracks.co.uk/puredata
*From:* Morgan Packard morgan@morganpackard.com
*To:* pd-list@iem.at *Sent:* Thu, 3 February, 2011 6:35:19 *Subject:* [PD] Are there alternative means of creating patches besides the graphical editor?
Hello there. I'm interested in using PD. However, as someone who spends a lot of time with code, I'm actually a little afraid of the learning curve involved with the graphical programming language! I'd be much more comfortable creating my patches using, for example, a Python tool. Does such a programmatic PD patch generation tool exist? I can't imagine I'm the first person who's wanted such a thing. thanks, -Morgan
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Music/Art: Latest album: Moment Again Elsewherehttp://www.anticipaterecordings.com/releases/ANT_011/index.php iOS app Thicket http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/thicket/id364824621?mt=8available on iTunes store . ================================
Thanks Ed. Yes, it is indeed simple-looking. But simply editing that file by hand doesn't do me much good. I'd want the power of scripting -- loops, variables, conditionals, to generate such a thing for me. -Morgan
OK. What I mean is, the scripting of PD patches follows a simple formula. The objects, messages etc are numbered from 0. Inlets of objects are numbered from 0 to the last inlet, as are outlets. Connections are made thus: connect sourceobject outletnumber targetobject inletnumber
simpleosc~.pd looks like this:
#N canvas 0 0 450 300 10; #X obj 59 70 loadbang; #X msg 59 96 440; #X obj 59 127 osc~; #X obj 58 159 *~ 0.1; #X obj 51 202 dac~; #X connect 0 0 1 0; #X connect 1 0 2 0; #X connect 2 0 3 0; #X connect 3 0 4 0; #X connect 3 0 4 1;
The #N canvas is the window (x-position y-position x-size y-size font-size).
You can use netreceive to send messages to a PD patch, or you can use a script to create a text file that is a PD patch. You could use any language to write the script, or any language connected to localhost to network-communicate with PD. Please see my enclosed examples to see what I mean. simpleosc~.pd is the patch shown above. dynamic_simpleosc~.pd shows you how it can be built dynamically from within PD.
Best wishes, Ed Kelly
On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Ed Kelly morph_2016@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Load a PD patch in a text editor and take a look.
Ed
Metastudio 4 for Pure Data - coming soon! Metastudio 3 still available at http://sharktracks.co.uk/puredata
From: Morgan Packard morgan@morganpackard.com
To: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Thu, 3 February, 2011 6:35:19 Subject: [PD] Are there alternative means of creating patches besides the graphical editor?
Hello there. I'm interested in using PD. However, as someone who spends a lot of time with code, I'm actually a little afraid of the learning curve involved with the graphical programming language! I'd be much more comfortable creating my patches using, for example, a Python tool. Does such a programmatic PD patch generation tool exist? I can't imagine I'm the first person who's wanted such a thing. thanks, -Morgan
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