I just saw this video, which might have been posted here before, it
shows a bunch of layout shortcuts for Max/MSP. I think that there is
a lot that could be done to make patching much quicker and easier.
http://www.studioimaginaire.com/nat/maxtoolbox/box2.mov
I had one thought, which is making a snap-to-grid function when
editing. Maybe graphical editors have this, I think it would work
well for Pd. Ideally, it would be resizable and togglable via a
preference, or even better, via Pd messages.
One thing that I think would help a lot is making it so you could
click and release an outlet, then click an inlet to make the
connection, instead of having to drag. Any other ideas?
.hc
I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and
during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man
for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers.
- General Smedley Butler
The only issue with the Max ToolBox is that it has this funny
tendancy to cause Max to act rather odd. Its not a built in function
in Max, but rather a set of javascript addons. So make sure its a
part of PD proper, or an extension that doesnt suck ass. Ive had to
remove my max toolbox as it just caused issues. Ive repeatedly asked
C74 for quick key command like PD has. oh well... :)
v a d e //
www.vade.info abstrakt.vade.info
On Jun 3, 2006, at 11:13 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I just saw this video, which might have been posted here before, it
shows a bunch of layout shortcuts for Max/MSP. I think that there
is a lot that could be done to make patching much quicker and easier.
Yeah, I don't mean porting that. I think a lot of those hacks are
not so useful in regards to good patching style. More I wanted to
start the discussion about what kind of tools in the GUI could make
patching go much quicker, without making things harder to use.
I think this stuff really comes into play when building GUIs. I
think have a snap-to-grid function would go a long way to speed up
this process. Another idea is to have magnetic edges on GUI objects,
so that they want to line up. A great example is OmniGraffle, which
is kind of a patcher interface, since it does diagramming, UML, etc.
Its really quick and easy to put together nicely laid out diagrams
without a lot of hassle.
.hc
On Jun 3, 2006, at 6:19 PM, vade wrote:
The only issue with the Max ToolBox is that it has this funny
tendancy to cause Max to act rather odd. Its not a built in
function in Max, but rather a set of javascript addons. So make
sure its a part of PD proper, or an extension that doesnt suck ass.
Ive had to remove my max toolbox as it just caused issues. Ive
repeatedly asked C74 for quick key command like PD has. oh well... :)v a d e //
www.vade.info abstrakt.vade.info
On Jun 3, 2006, at 11:13 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I just saw this video, which might have been posted here before,
it shows a bunch of layout shortcuts for Max/MSP. I think that
there is a lot that could be done to make patching much quicker
and easier.
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are
deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from
scarcity."
-John Gilmore
some stuff has been added to max directly which is not an extra add-
on, that's very usefull. most of all, the "encapsulate" feature of
max 4.5, i think that pretty much speeds up editing. BTW now that i
use more pd, i find it a lot faster to hit Cmd+1 than to have to move
the mouse to some toolbar ;-)
best, -sciss -
Am 03.06.2006 um 21:16 schrieb Hans-Christoph Steiner:
On Jun 3, 2006, at 6:19 PM, vade wrote:
The only issue with the Max ToolBox is that it has this funny
tendancy to cause Max to act rather odd. Its not a built in
function in Max, but rather a set of javascript addons. So make
sure its a part of PD proper, or an extension that doesnt suck
ass. Ive had to remove my max toolbox as it just caused issues.
Ive repeatedly asked C74 for quick key command like PD has. oh
well... :)v a d e //
www.vade.info abstrakt.vade.info
Hans-Christoph Steiner schrieb:
I just saw this video, which might have been posted here before, it shows a bunch of layout shortcuts for Max/MSP. I think that there is a lot that could be done to make patching much quicker and easier.
http://www.studioimaginaire.com/nat/maxtoolbox/box2.mov
I had one thought, which is making a snap-to-grid function when editing. Maybe graphical editors have this, I think it would work well for Pd. Ideally, it would be resizable and togglable via a preference, or even better, via Pd messages.
One thing that I think would help a lot is making it so you could click and release an outlet, then click an inlet to make the connection, instead of having to drag. Any other ideas?
.hc
I would really appreciate the possibility to create an abstraction from a subpatch.
I often start writing subpatches that later turn out to be better suited as abstractions. Then I have to
- open the subpatch
- ctrl+A, ctrl+C
- ctrl+N
- ctrl+V
- ctrl+S
- create a new object in my patch (from the newly-saved abstraction)
- move all connections to the new object
Instead of this I would rather right-click on the subpatch, select "save as abstraction" and pick a place and a name for the abstraction. It could default to the name of the subpatch and the folder where the parent patch is located (so that the abstraction is found).
Besides: snap-to-grid or auto-align functions would indeed be very nice.
Best Urs
Hans-Christoph Steiner schrieb:
I just saw this video, which might have been posted here before, it shows a bunch of layout shortcuts for Max/MSP. I think that there is a lot that could be done to make patching much quicker and easier.
http://www.studioimaginaire.com/nat/maxtoolbox/box2.mov
I had one thought, which is making a snap-to-grid function when editing. Maybe graphical editors have this, I think it would work well for Pd. Ideally, it would be resizable and togglable via a preference, or even better, via Pd messages.
One thing that I think would help a lot is making it so you could click and release an outlet, then click an inlet to make the connection, instead of having to drag. Any other ideas?
.hc
Another thing that would increase (at least my) productivity would be that objects with variable number of outlets (or inlets) realize at which point parameters are inserted or deleted.
To make this understandable: If I change [route 1 2 3 4] to [route 1 2 5 3 4] I have to manually change all connections which is a tedious and error-prone process. If in the above example the connections for the '3' and '4' outlet moved to the right automatically, it would make my life a lot easier.
Most often I run into this inconvenience when adding an option to an [OSCroute] and don't want to append it at the end.
Best Urs
I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. - General Smedley Butler
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
something that would really help me is if you could click and drag on the canvas, and then all the cables in that area would be selected.
someone else also posted a really cool little animated gif that showed an object being inserted into the middle of a patch cord, so there was no need to sever the cord, add the object, then remake 2 patch cords.
also totally agree that having to rewire all my [route] [trigger] [select] outlets when i add a new argument is annoying. but recoding these objects looks pretty tricky.
On Sun Jun 04, 2006 at 11:34:21AM +0900, hard off wrote:
something that would really help me is if you could click and drag on the canvas, and then all the cables in that area would be selected.
i made an experimental PD-gui in TCL last summer, with plans to hook into the desireData server.. cables are full-fledged objects (give each one a differnet width and color if you want) lassoable (or toggle between cables and the objects they touch with tab), snap to grid with adjustable resolution, property inspector, freely zommable canvas, input to all selected widgets (Eg bang 10 buttons at once, move 10 sliders, align things horizontally by selecting them and entering '10' for the x position in the inspector), and some other things i probably forget. it was about 40 K of TCL code when i abandoned it since pd didnt work on my hardware so there was little point in continuing..
much of the features were inspired by that max .mov, but really adobe illustrator had all of them in 1988..
as soon pd works on my hardware i'll investigate refactoring the code a bit to use ObjectiveTCL (as in DesireData) so that objects can be used in either (since in the meantime ive added some OSC stuff so that it doesnt need PD to run and can just be used as a frontend to Om-Synth/SooperLooper, etc)
most of these usability fixes are pretty trivial once the GUI is not dealing with linked lists in C in the DSP thread. so we're on the right track. im sure development would be alot faster if we could get paid to work on it, instead of wasting so much time worrying how to make ends meet by fixing computers for musicians, building websites, or whatever else it is people do to make money instead of work on cool free software...
the only real downside to using TCL/Tk is you need an extra layer of abstraction between the canvas coordinates, since it doesnt natively support scaling and zooming the entire canvas (QT's Canvas does this AFAIK, and of course you can do anything with an openGL viewpoint..) and theres no way you can really display video inline in the patch without non-portable X hacks.. neither of these things stand in the way of the massive headroom for improvements over pd's old gui (imo it should have used QuickDraw, and X Pixmaps, since all uses Tk for is draw line segments)..
someone else also posted a really cool little animated gif that showed an object being inserted into the middle of a patch cord, so there was no need to sever the cord, add the object, then remake 2 patch cords.
also totally agree that having to rewire all my [route] [trigger] [select] outlets when i add a new argument is annoying. but recoding these objects looks pretty tricky.
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It would help on many levels if you guys would make some releases.
Then people would see what you are doing, and would be more likely to
donate money.
.hc
On Jun 4, 2006, at 5:13 AM, c wrote:
On Sun Jun 04, 2006 at 11:34:21AM +0900, hard off wrote:
something that would really help me is if you could click and drag on the canvas, and then all the cables in that area would be selected.
i made an experimental PD-gui in TCL last summer, with plans to
hook into the desireData server.. cables are full-fledged objects
(give each one a differnet width and color if you want) lassoable
(or toggle between cables and the objects they touch with tab),
snap to grid with adjustable resolution, property inspector, freely
zommable canvas, input to all selected widgets (Eg bang 10 buttons
at once, move 10 sliders, align things horizontally by selecting
them and entering '10' for the x position in the inspector), and
some other things i probably forget. it was about 40 K of TCL code
when i abandoned it since pd didnt work on my hardware so there was
little point in continuing..much of the features were inspired by that max .mov, but really
adobe illustrator had all of them in 1988..as soon pd works on my hardware i'll investigate refactoring the
code a bit to use ObjectiveTCL (as in DesireData) so that objects
can be used in either (since in the meantime ive added some OSC
stuff so that it doesnt need PD to run and can just be used as a
frontend to Om-Synth/SooperLooper, etc)most of these usability fixes are pretty trivial once the GUI is
not dealing with linked lists in C in the DSP thread. so we're on
the right track. im sure development would be alot faster if we
could get paid to work on it, instead of wasting so much time
worrying how to make ends meet by fixing computers for musicians,
building websites, or whatever else it is people do to make money
instead of work on cool free software...the only real downside to using TCL/Tk is you need an extra layer
of abstraction between the canvas coordinates, since it doesnt
natively support scaling and zooming the entire canvas (QT's Canvas
does this AFAIK, and of course you can do anything with an openGL
viewpoint..) and theres no way you can really display video inline
in the patch without non-portable X hacks.. neither of these things
stand in the way of the massive headroom for improvements over pd's
old gui (imo it should have used QuickDraw, and X Pixmaps, since
all uses Tk for is draw line segments)..someone else also posted a really cool little animated gif that
showed an object being inserted into the middle of a patch cord, so there
was no need to sever the cord, add the object, then remake 2 patch cords.also totally agree that having to rewire all my [route] [trigger] [select] outlets when i add a new argument is annoying. but recoding these objects looks pretty tricky.
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
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News is what people want to keep hidden and everything else is
publicity.
- Bill Moyers
On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
It would help on many levels if you guys would make some releases. Then people would see what you are doing, and would be more likely to donate money.
It would help on many levels if I had the time to work on it. Then I could do what's essential for making DesireData something worthy enough of a release.
(These days I work at Ottawa U's visual arts research lab, but I also have several other jobs. Nevertheless I plan to publish a tarball during the next month.)
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
and : naming inlets and outlets so their function gets displayed when
you move the mouse over them! that's very very usefull in max.
This function in 'Scope Fusion Platform' is also quite handy: Make the first connection between two objects, say, the first of 8 outlets of one object to the first of 6 inlets on another. Then press n several times to make the subsequent connections until one of the objects runs out of free inlets or outlets.
tim
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I just saw this video, which might have been posted here before, it
shows a bunch of layout shortcuts for Max/MSP. I think that there is
a lot that could be done to make patching much quicker and easier.http://www.studioimaginaire.com/nat/maxtoolbox/box2.mov
I had one thought, which is making a snap-to-grid function when
editing. Maybe graphical editors have this, I think it would work
well for Pd. Ideally, it would be resizable and togglable via a
preference, or even better, via Pd messages.One thing that I think would help a lot is making it so you could
click and release an outlet, then click an inlet to make the
connection, instead of having to drag. Any other ideas?.hc
I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and
during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man
for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. - General Smedley Butler
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Hallo, tim hat gesagt: // tim wrote:
This function in 'Scope Fusion Platform' is also quite handy: Make the first connection between two objects, say, the first of 8 outlets of one object to the first of 6 inlets on another. Then press n several times to make the subsequent connections until one of the objects runs out of free inlets or outlets.
We should collect all these ideas on the puredata.org-wiki. Similar discussions come up in regular intervals and then everything is lost somehow. If we'd had this on a wiki page, we'd have a place to actually remember them and maybe decide, which features are the most important to do.
(I tried to add a page, but I get a message regarding "insufficient privileges" all the time. Hhm,...)
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
On Jun 4, 2006, at 5:20 PM, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo, tim hat gesagt: // tim wrote:
This function in 'Scope Fusion Platform' is also quite handy: Make the first connection between two objects, say, the first of 8 outlets of one object to the first of 6 inlets on another. Then press n several times to make the subsequent connections
until one of the objects runs out of free inlets or outlets.We should collect all these ideas on the puredata.org-wiki. Similar discussions come up in regular intervals and then everything is lost somehow. If we'd had this on a wiki page, we'd have a place to actually remember them and maybe decide, which features are the most important to do.
(I tried to add a page, but I get a message regarding "insufficient privileges" all the time. Hhm,...)
Strange, I have permission. I don't know how to set those perms, but
I did create the page, but first I turned the front dev page to a
wiki too:
Add your stuff to Ideas for improvements of the GUI
.hc
Using ReBirth is like trying to play an 808 with a long stick. -David Zicarelli
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
(I tried to add a page, but I get a message regarding "insufficient privileges" all the time. Hhm,...)
Strange, I have permission. I don't know how to set those perms, but
I did create the page, but first I turned the front dev page to a
wiki too:Add your stuff to Ideas for improvements of the GUI
Thanks. I can edit, but not create anything new. :(
Anyways I added the stuff from this thread there (http://puredata.org/dev/GuiIdeas), and I'll have to dig up the old threads, I think they were on pd-dev mostly.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
full copy & paste support would help.
Am 04.06.2006 um 14:08 schrieb tim:
This function in 'Scope Fusion Platform' is also quite handy: Make the first connection between two objects, say, the first of 8
outlets of one object to the first of 6 inlets on another. Then press n several times to make the subsequent connections until
one of the objects runs out of free inlets or outlets.tim
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I just saw this video, which might have been posted here before,
it shows a bunch of layout shortcuts for Max/MSP. I think that
there is a lot that could be done to make patching much quicker
and easier.http://www.studioimaginaire.com/nat/maxtoolbox/box2.mov
I had one thought, which is making a snap-to-grid function when
editing. Maybe graphical editors have this, I think it would
work well for Pd. Ideally, it would be resizable and togglable
via a preference, or even better, via Pd messages.One thing that I think would help a lot is making it so you could
click and release an outlet, then click an inlet to make the
connection, instead of having to drag. Any other ideas?.hc
I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and
during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle
man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. - General Smedley Butler
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
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An history window ! Yes, click-and-release then click to connect. Grid, yes, why not. More shortcuts. (btw, I like control shortcuts on Mac, as they are the same then on Linux and aren't often reserved by some Apple Guideline stuff) If we could find some way to put the patchchords away for underneath editing... A "send to back", bring to front, bring object one layer higher, etc. as in vector graphics editors would be necessary. DesireData's classbrowser is a must and should be included in Pd.
aalex
On 6/4/06, Max Neupert abonnements@revolwear.com wrote:
full copy & paste support would help.
Am 04.06.2006 um 14:08 schrieb tim:
This function in 'Scope Fusion Platform' is also quite handy: Make the first connection between two objects, say, the first of 8 outlets of one object to the first of 6 inlets on another. Then press n several times to make the subsequent connections until one of the objects runs out of free inlets or outlets.
tim
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I just saw this video, which might have been posted here before, it shows a bunch of layout shortcuts for Max/MSP. I think that there is a lot that could be done to make patching much quicker and easier.
http://www.studioimaginaire.com/nat/maxtoolbox/box2.mov
I had one thought, which is making a snap-to-grid function when editing. Maybe graphical editors have this, I think it would work well for Pd. Ideally, it would be resizable and togglable via a preference, or even better, via Pd messages.
One thing that I think would help a lot is making it so you could click and release an outlet, then click an inlet to make the connection, instead of having to drag. Any other ideas?
.hc
I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. - General Smedley Butler
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
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-
Alexandre Quessy -
c -
Frank Barknecht -
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
hard off -
Mathieu Bouchard -
Max Neupert -
Sciss -
tim -
Urs Liska -
vade