Hello,
I recently came across RTC-lib for Max here: http://www.essl.at/works/rtc.html
I thought that it would be great to make a similar library for PD, perhaps even mimicing some of the functionality of those objects, only using PD objects.
What do people think?
~David
Hallo, David Powers hat gesagt: // David Powers wrote:
I recently came across RTC-lib for Max here: http://www.essl.at/works/rtc.html
I thought that it would be great to make a similar library for PD, perhaps even mimicing some of the functionality of those objects, only using PD objects.
I started porting RTC to Pd already, but lost track of it after one afternoon. It's actually not hard to do:
You use [cyclone] to import the Max patches by starting "pd -lib cyclone", creating a [cyclone] object and clicking on it.
Thein you clone the missing objects, several of which are already done in [list]-abs, so you can just create wrapper abstractions using the names they have in RTC-lib. The missing objects then need to be patched by hand, some are also available as externals.
Attached is the small handful of patches I already did (prepent.pd is missing, it's just [list prepend $1]---[list trim])
I think, one should also ask Karlheinz Essl for permission to do this in the end, though I guess he won't mind.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
Hmmm, well to be honest, I use PD-extended on WinXP, and cyclone has always been broken. Nobody ever seemed to respond with any idea why it doesn't work. However, I'm going to do some new tests because things may be fixed since I checked last. I'll test your ojects also.
What is the legal status of a program that mimics another programs functions, but does not copy any of the actual source code or guts? I suppose in this case, asking permission would be a simple courtesy? Some of the objects are (c) Essl, but I was thinking more along the lines of a clone.
However, even so, it would be nice to get Essl's permission/interest because perhaps he would put a link on his site. He makes some great music.
I see you were going to use the actual max patches, I've never tried to load a max patch in PD. That wasn't my plan, but if we can do that, even better I guess. I'm sure then we WOULD definitely want permission.
~David
On 8/8/06, Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org wrote:
Hallo, David Powers hat gesagt: // David Powers wrote:
I recently came across RTC-lib for Max here: http://www.essl.at/works/rtc.html
I thought that it would be great to make a similar library for PD,
perhaps
even mimicing some of the functionality of those objects, only using PD objects.
I started porting RTC to Pd already, but lost track of it after one afternoon. It's actually not hard to do:
You use [cyclone] to import the Max patches by starting "pd -lib cyclone", creating a [cyclone] object and clicking on it.
Thein you clone the missing objects, several of which are already done in [list]-abs, so you can just create wrapper abstractions using the names they have in RTC-lib. The missing objects then need to be patched by hand, some are also available as externals.
Attached is the small handful of patches I already did (prepent.pd is missing, it's just [list prepend $1]---[list trim])
I think, one should also ask Karlheinz Essl for permission to do this in the end, though I guess he won't mind.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Tue, 8 Aug 2006, David Powers wrote:
What is the legal status of a program that mimics another programs functions, but does not copy any of the actual source code or guts?
Morally, I consider that this is a god-given right.
Traditionally it has pretty much been a right (think about what the USA Constitution says about intellectual property). However this system has drifted over the years: I think I remember laws forbidding "reverse engineering", but also, the DMCA is the biggest example. OTOH there are rulings that specifically say that interfaces can't be copyrighted or otherwise encumbered, and I would believe that this extends to imitation of a complete program. (There were also some rulings on similar topics in opposite direction... this may depend on who the judge happened to be each time)
I suppose in this case, asking permission would be a simple courtesy?
No, it would be lame, weak and wimpy to do so: copying an interface is not a privilege, so you should not treat it as one, lest you encourage people to treat it as one. It should be a right. Don't ask permission. Just inform that you are going to make a clone and say thanks for coding the originals and fax him a bouquet of flowers, but don't ask permission.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Tue, 8 Aug 2006, David Powers wrote:
What is the legal status of a program that mimics another programs functions, but does not copy any of the actual source code or guts?
Morally, I consider that this is a god-given right.
Traditionally it has pretty much been a right (think about what the USA Constitution says about intellectual property). However this system has drifted over the years: I think I remember laws forbidding "reverse engineering", but also, the DMCA is the biggest example. OTOH there are rulings that specifically say that interfaces can't be copyrighted or otherwise encumbered, and I would believe that this extends to imitation of a complete program. (There were also some rulings on similar topics in opposite direction... this may depend on who the judge happened to be each time)
What about patents? Think of M$'s patent on double-click http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/02/1086058889577.html or adobe's patent on tabs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tab_(GUI)
br, Piotr
What about the children, won't somebody please think of the children!?
On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 10:40:45 +0200 Piotr Majdak piotr@majdak.com wrote:
What about patents? Think of M$'s patent on double-click http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/02/1086058889577.html or adobe's patent on tabs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tab_(GUI)
br, Piotr
On 8/9/06, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
On Tue, 8 Aug 2006, David Powers wrote:
What is the legal status of a program that mimics another programs functions, but does not copy any of the actual source code or guts?
Morally, I consider that this is a god-given right.
Traditionally it has pretty much been a right (think about what the USA Constitution says about intellectual property). However this system has drifted over the years: I think I remember laws forbidding "reverse engineering", but also, the DMCA is the biggest example. OTOH there are rulings that specifically say that interfaces can't be copyrighted or otherwise encumbered, and I would believe that this extends to imitation of a complete program. (There were also some rulings on similar topics in opposite direction... this may depend on who the judge happened to be each time)
I agree. A patent on an interface or an idea would prevent improvements from being made on it, and most likely prevent it from ever becoming universal. A patent on the actual structure used to enact it, on the other hand, would seem to force improvements to be made, as people invented their own ways of realizing it. I personally don't understand the difference between a software patent and a standard patent. If an idea realized with programs ought not to be owned, why should an idea realized with metal and wood and plastic be owned? It's funny that the patent was so important to someone like Edison. Such a creative person benefiting from restricting creativity. It's an odd thought, that someone could be paid for the rest of their life for one year's work.
It's an odd thought, that someone could be paid for the rest of their life for one year's work.
-Why not...
AvS
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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|Schreck Ensemble - live electro-acoustic music - | *===========================================================++
|Compositions http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/compo.html | |Samples http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/samp.html |
|Patches http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/pat.html | |Videos http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/video.html |
` |Scores http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/scores.html |
*===========================================================++
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Hallo,
I have mailed Karlheinz about this now and he did reply. He thinks it's a great idea and we should keep him informed on the progress of porting RTC-lib to Pd, so that he can put a link to it on his website as well.
Ciao
Frank
David Powers hat gesagt: // David Powers wrote:
Hmmm, well to be honest, I use PD-extended on WinXP, and cyclone has always been broken. Nobody ever seemed to respond with any idea why it doesn't work. However, I'm going to do some new tests because things may be fixed since I checked last. I'll test your ojects also.
What is the legal status of a program that mimics another programs functions, but does not copy any of the actual source code or guts? I suppose in this case, asking permission would be a simple courtesy? Some of the objects are (c) Essl, but I was thinking more along the lines of a clone.
However, even so, it would be nice to get Essl's permission/interest because perhaps he would put a link on his site. He makes some great music.
I see you were going to use the actual max patches, I've never tried to load a max patch in PD. That wasn't my plan, but if we can do that, even better I guess. I'm sure then we WOULD definitely want permission.
~David
On 8/8/06, Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org wrote:
Hallo, David Powers hat gesagt: // David Powers wrote:
I recently came across RTC-lib for Max here: http://www.essl.at/works/rtc.html
I thought that it would be great to make a similar library for PD,
perhaps
even mimicing some of the functionality of those objects, only using PD objects.
I started porting RTC to Pd already, but lost track of it after one afternoon. It's actually not hard to do:
You use [cyclone] to import the Max patches by starting "pd -lib cyclone", creating a [cyclone] object and clicking on it.
Thein you clone the missing objects, several of which are already done in [list]-abs, so you can just create wrapper abstractions using the names they have in RTC-lib. The missing objects then need to be patched by hand, some are also available as externals.
Attached is the small handful of patches I already did (prepent.pd is missing, it's just [list prepend $1]---[list trim])
I think, one should also ask Karlheinz Essl for permission to do this in the end, though I guess he won't mind.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On 8/8/06, Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org wrote:
I think, one should also ask Karlheinz Essl for permission to do this in the end, though I guess he won't mind.
Careful borrowing ideas from Macintosh customers. You don't want to get sued.
http://khz96.org/mov/KHE-Leopoldpreis4.mov
His sound is so incredible but it's the stuff like this...
But yeah his sounds are amazing. I've wanted to look at his Max patches and learn from them... If anyone gets them translated to Pd, even months down the line, please post to the list :)
Kevin
On 8/8/06, Chuckk Hubbard badmuthahubbard@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/8/06, Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org wrote:
I think, one should also ask Karlheinz Essl for permission to do this in the end, though I guess he won't mind.
Careful borrowing ideas from Macintosh customers. You don't want to get sued.
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Hallo, Kevin McCoy hat gesagt: // Kevin McCoy wrote:
Nice flat.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
Essls work is brilliant, but I have mixed feelings looking at the library. I think toolkits like that are quite personal to the composer and ones own developed way of working. There's not much in there that a fluent Pd programmer wouldn't construct on the fly as needed, and some things, like [minus], are just wanton. Not to detract the dudes great kindness in sharing it but too much gravy can hide the meat, as in my own recent foolish appetite for [inv] when [pow -1] was laughing at me all the time.
On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 16:45:40 -0500 "Kevin McCoy" km.takewithyou@gmail.com wrote:
http://khz96.org/mov/KHE-Leopoldpreis4.mov
His sound is so incredible but it's the stuff like this...
But yeah his sounds are amazing. I've wanted to look at his Max patches and learn from them... If anyone gets them translated to Pd, even months down the line, please post to the list :)
Kevin
On 8/8/06, Chuckk Hubbard badmuthahubbard@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/8/06, Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org wrote:
I think, one should also ask Karlheinz Essl for permission to do this in the end, though I guess he won't mind.
Careful borrowing ideas from Macintosh customers. You don't want to get sued.
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- "[D]aily life [is] a theatrical landscape in which 'everyone has their price,' God (via televangelism) and happiness (smile buttons) become commodities, radio stations say they love you, and detergents have compassion for your hands.
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Hallo, David Powers hat gesagt: // David Powers wrote:
I recently came across RTC-lib for Max here: http://www.essl.at/works/rtc.html
I thought that it would be great to make a similar library for PD, perhaps even mimicing some of the functionality of those objects, only using PD objects.
I'd like to officially announce that I have started porting all patches from RTC-lib to Pd. The section "Chance" is almost done. As the Pd version is changing a lot currently there is no release yet, this will be done later on Sourceforge.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
-
Arie van Schutterhoef -
Chuckk Hubbard -
David Powers -
Frank Barknecht -
Kevin McCoy -
Mathieu Bouchard -
padawan12 -
Piotr Majdak