Hi list,
For pd-list people, please skip down to #7 below...
A little confused. A few questions:
"None" or "Dummy" for the cases where that is what the user wants?
and less pressing (and can't remember if I already asked): 4) did s_audio_esd.c ever work? 5) if it did, what needs to be done to get it to work again? 6) has anyone substantiated the claims by pulse audio people that pulse is a drop-in replacement for esd?
And just curious: 7) Does anyone using GNU/Linux system want to use pulse-audio with Pd? The main reason would be easy software mixing-- for example, you could watch a tutorial on youtube and get sound out of a running instance of Pd without doing any configuration whatsoever. (At least that's what Pulse Audio claims-- I haven't used it so much.)
Thanks, Jonathan
- Does anyone using GNU/Linux system want to use pulse-audio with
Pd? The main reason would be easy software mixing-- for example, you could watch a tutorial on youtube and get sound out of a running instance of Pd without doing any configuration whatsoever. (At least that's what Pulse Audio claims-- I haven't used it so much.)
It's hard to stay polite about this, for me it has never worked correctly, the best way to have sound always going out from audiocard on linux/ubuntu is about removing pulse-audio, since ever, everytime.
Thanks, Jonathan
Pd-dev mailing list Pd-dev@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-dev
From: Patrice Colet colet.patrice@free.fr To: PD List pd-list@iem.at Cc: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 6:47 AM Subject: Re: [PD-dev] audio apis
- Does anyone using GNU/Linux system want to use pulse-audio with
Pd? The main reason would be easy software mixing-- for example, you could watch a tutorial on youtube and get sound out of a running instance of Pd without doing any configuration whatsoever. (At least that's what Pulse Audio claims-- I haven't used it so much.)
It's hard to stay polite about this, for me it has never worked correctly, the best way to have sound always going out from audiocard on linux/ubuntu is about removing pulse-audio, since ever, everytime.
Could you give some details here:
I can say it functions on Debian Wheezy when using the ALSA api, though I haven't tested it very heavily.
-Jonathan
On Die, 2013-05-21 at 12:47 +0200, Patrice Colet wrote:
- Does anyone using GNU/Linux system want to use pulse-audio with
Pd? The main reason would be easy software mixing-- for example, you could watch a tutorial on youtube and get sound out of a running instance of Pd without doing any configuration whatsoever. (At least that's what Pulse Audio claims-- I haven't used it so much.)
It's hard to stay polite about this, for me it has never worked correctly, the best way to have sound always going out from audiocard on linux/ubuntu is about removing pulse-audio, since ever, everytime.
It's hard not to get political about this, but for me pulseaudio has always worked as expected and it basically freed me of hassling around with Linux audio issues. The only hassle about it are softwares like Pd that prevent it from working silently by not supporting it.
I know, everyone mileage varies.
Roman
On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 8:21 AM, Roman Haefeli reduzent@gmail.com wrote:
On Die, 2013-05-21 at 12:47 +0200, Patrice Colet wrote:
- Does anyone using GNU/Linux system want to use pulse-audio with
Pd? The main reason would be easy software mixing-- for example, you could watch a tutorial on youtube and get sound out of a running instance of Pd without doing any configuration whatsoever. (At least that's what Pulse Audio claims-- I haven't used it so much.)
It's hard to stay polite about this, for me it has never worked correctly, the best way to have sound always going out from audiocard on linux/ubuntu is about removing pulse-audio, since ever, everytime.
It's hard not to get political about this, but for me pulseaudio has always worked as expected and it basically freed me of hassling around with Linux audio issues. The only hassle about it are softwares like Pd that prevent it from working silently by not supporting it.
Most of the PA haters were born from using Fedora or Ubuntu between 2008 and 2011 (not exact dates). Fedora and Ubuntu, as early adopters of about every software package in development, routinely break some kind of important system. If you were using a sane distro during that time, you probably barely noticed. I did just enough PA hatin' to remember why.
I thought PA had an alsa plugin, so you wouldn't have to go through portaudio?
On 05/23/2013 10:15 AM, Charles Z Henry wrote:
On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 8:21 AM, Roman Haefeli <reduzent@gmail.com mailto:reduzent@gmail.com> wrote:
On Die, 2013-05-21 at 12:47 +0200, Patrice Colet wrote: > > 7) Does anyone using GNU/Linux system want to use pulse-audio with > > Pd? The main reason would be easy software mixing-- for example, > > you could watch a tutorial on youtube and get sound out of a running > > instance of Pd without doing any configuration whatsoever. (At > > least that's what Pulse Audio claims-- I haven't used it so much.) > > > > It's hard to stay polite about this, for me it has never worked > correctly, > the best way to have sound always going out from audiocard on > linux/ubuntu is about removing pulse-audio, > since ever, everytime. It's hard not to get political about this, but for me pulseaudio has always worked as expected and it basically freed me of hassling around with Linux audio issues. The only hassle about it are softwares like Pd that prevent it from working silently by not supporting it.
Most of the PA haters were born from using Fedora or Ubuntu between 2008 and 2011 (not exact dates). Fedora and Ubuntu, as early adopters of about every software package in development, routinely break some kind of important system. If you were using a sane distro during that time, you probably barely noticed. I did just enough PA hatin' to remember why.
I thought PA had an alsa plugin, so you wouldn't have to go through portaudio?
Well, if I choose the ALSA API from within Pure Data, it works with PulseAudio but it won't share the soundcard with other programs.
-Jonathan
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On 05/23/2013 10:15 AM, Charles Z Henry wrote:
On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 8:21 AM, Roman Haefeli <reduzent@gmail.com mailto:reduzent@gmail.com> wrote:
On Die, 2013-05-21 at 12:47 +0200, Patrice Colet wrote: > > 7) Does anyone using GNU/Linux system want to use pulse-audio with > > Pd? The main reason would be easy software mixing-- for example, > > you could watch a tutorial on youtube and get sound out of a running > > instance of Pd without doing any configuration whatsoever. (At > > least that's what Pulse Audio claims-- I haven't used it so much.) > > > > It's hard to stay polite about this, for me it has never worked > correctly, > the best way to have sound always going out from audiocard on > linux/ubuntu is about removing pulse-audio, > since ever, everytime. It's hard not to get political about this, but for me pulseaudio has always worked as expected and it basically freed me of hassling around with Linux audio issues. The only hassle about it are softwares like Pd that prevent it from working silently by not supporting it.
Most of the PA haters were born from using Fedora or Ubuntu between 2008 and 2011 (not exact dates). Fedora and Ubuntu, as early adopters of about every software package in development, routinely break some kind of important system. If you were using a sane distro during that time, you probably barely noticed. I did just enough PA hatin' to remember why.
I thought PA had an alsa plugin, so you wouldn't have to go through portaudio?
Well, if I choose the ALSA API from within Pure Data, it works with PulseAudio but it won't share the soundcard with other programs.
-Jonathan
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On my Panasonic CF-19 with Xubuntu and Kubuntu I have PulseAudio disabled almost permanently, because it's limited mixer options does not give access to all soundcard options. Built-in speaker always sounds together with headphone output. Alsamixer gives the separate controls, but is overruled when PulseAudio is running. So I'm not fond of PulseAudio as it is now.
By the way, how do you guys use Pd with PulseAudio? I wanted to connect Pd (extended 0.44) with SoundWire (http://georgielabs.99k.org/SoundWireHelp.html), which needs PulseAudio running. But the only working options from Pd's Media menu are Alsa or Jack, and they both seem to steal the audio from Pulse...
Katja
On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 5:45 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com wrote:
On 05/23/2013 10:15 AM, Charles Z Henry wrote:
On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 8:21 AM, Roman Haefeli reduzent@gmail.com wrote:
On Die, 2013-05-21 at 12:47 +0200, Patrice Colet wrote:
- Does anyone using GNU/Linux system want to use pulse-audio with
Pd? The main reason would be easy software mixing-- for example, you could watch a tutorial on youtube and get sound out of a running instance of Pd without doing any configuration whatsoever. (At least that's what Pulse Audio claims-- I haven't used it so much.)
It's hard to stay polite about this, for me it has never worked correctly, the best way to have sound always going out from audiocard on linux/ubuntu is about removing pulse-audio, since ever, everytime.
It's hard not to get political about this, but for me pulseaudio has always worked as expected and it basically freed me of hassling around with Linux audio issues. The only hassle about it are softwares like Pd that prevent it from working silently by not supporting it.
Most of the PA haters were born from using Fedora or Ubuntu between 2008 and 2011 (not exact dates). Fedora and Ubuntu, as early adopters of about every software package in development, routinely break some kind of important system. If you were using a sane distro during that time, you probably barely noticed. I did just enough PA hatin' to remember why.
I thought PA had an alsa plugin, so you wouldn't have to go through portaudio?
Well, if I choose the ALSA API from within Pure Data, it works with PulseAudio but it won't share the soundcard with other programs.
-Jonathan
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
From: Roman Haefeli reduzent@gmail.com To: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [PD] [PD-dev] audio apis
On Die, 2013-05-21 at 12:47 +0200, Patrice Colet wrote:
- Does anyone using GNU/Linux system want to use pulse-audio with
Pd? The main reason would be easy software mixing-- for example, you could watch a tutorial on youtube and get sound out of a running instance of Pd without doing any configuration whatsoever. (At least that's what Pulse Audio claims-- I haven't used it so much.)
It's hard to stay polite about this, for me it has never worked correctly, the best way to have sound always going out from audiocard on linux/ubuntu is about removing pulse-audio, since ever, everytime.
It's hard not to get political about this, but for me pulseaudio has always worked as expected and it basically freed me of hassling around with Linux audio issues. The only hassle about it are softwares like Pd that prevent it from working silently by not supporting it.
Ok, after some extensive communication on the pulseaudio irc chatroom of freenode, here's what I've come up with:
and put a special entry in the list for "default", and on the ALSA backend just set the device name to "default". On a machine running PulseAudio this would hand the audio to Pulse, which means you'd get software mixing without any additional setup. Unfortunately, because of the way Pd's ALSA backend works with mmap the output is pretty much crap (lots of dropouts) so it's not a solution unless someone does more extensive revision of
s_audio_alsa.c. (I don't entirely understand the mmap stuff myself.)
of a prospective GNU/Linux distribution-- in other words, _if_ the distro wants to configure Pulse with Esound support, then everything that used Esound _should_ work with Pulse. However, that support is optional-- extant distros may or may not have that configuration. Thus client software cannot rely on its own Esound backend to work on a distro with Pulse out of the box, so even if s_audio_esd.c is a working backend it would give spotty coverage. (And I was pretty much guided away from going that route on the irc chat.)
I can safely say that one benefit of doing so would be that new users would get audio input/output that "just works" for casual/beginner patching-- e.g., watching a tutorial on the web while patching in Pd. (I focus on beginners not because veteran users don't browse the web while patching, but because veteran users probably already know how to route through Jack to get web audio and Pd audio to play at the same time.)
Beyond that software mixing it's hard to say what the benefits would be. Not because I don't think PulseAudio has benefits, but because s_audio_alsa.c isn't the greatest ALSA backend ever written so it's impossible to gauge the reliability of Pulse by trying #1 above. I can say that everyone on the PulseAudio list was extremely helpful in trying to get software mixing in Pd without having to write a whole Pulse backend. (Especially considering I don't really understand the ALSA API nor the Pulse one all that well.)
So it's a bit of a pickle-- a new user can already most likely get audio output from Pd right away, and someone who wants extremely low latency has exactly zero need for Pulse being in the mix at all. So the only real use case I see is mixing with the audio from the rest of the system. That's important, but it's unclear to me whether it necessitates the work it would take to create and test an additional audio backend.
Anyway I'd love to hear from people who have more knowledge about audio backends/servers than I do. I really was only working on integrating Pd's audio dialog GUI into a Preferences dialog and fell down this Linux Audio Hell Rabbit Hole...
Best, Jonathan
I know, everyone mileage varies.
Roman
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Oh and one more thing:
One of the people I was chatting with on the PulseAudio freenode channel suggested using emscripten to compile libpd to javascript. (I guess you could use the web audio api to output the sound.)
It sounded interesting. Anyone ever tried it?
-Jonathan
----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com To: Roman Haefeli reduzent@gmail.com; "pd-list@iem.at" pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [PD] [PD-dev] audio apis
From: Roman Haefeli reduzent@gmail.com To: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [PD] [PD-dev] audio apis
On Die, 2013-05-21 at 12:47 +0200, Patrice Colet wrote:
- Does anyone using GNU/Linux system want to use pulse-audio with
Pd? The main reason would be easy software mixing-- for example, you could watch a tutorial on youtube and get sound out of a running instance of Pd without doing any configuration whatsoever. (At least that's what Pulse Audio claims-- I haven't used it so much.)
It's hard to stay polite about this, for me it has never worked correctly, the best way to have sound always going out from audiocard on linux/ubuntu is about removing pulse-audio, since ever, everytime.
It's hard not to get political about this, but for me pulseaudio has always worked as expected and it basically freed me of hassling around with Linux audio issues. The only hassle about it are softwares like Pd that prevent it from working silently by not supporting it.
Ok, after some extensive communication on the pulseaudio irc chatroom of freenode, here's what I've come up with:
and put a special entry in the list for "default", and on the ALSA backend just set the device name to "default". On a machine running PulseAudio this would hand the audio to Pulse, which means you'd get software mixing without any additional setup. Unfortunately, because of the way Pd's ALSA backend works with mmap the output is pretty much crap (lots of dropouts) so it's not a solution unless someone does more extensive revision of
s_audio_alsa.c. (I don't entirely understand the mmap stuff myself.)
of a prospective GNU/Linux distribution-- in other words, _if_ the distro wants to configure Pulse with Esound support, then everything that used Esound _should_ work with Pulse. However, that support is optional-- extant distros may or may not have that configuration. Thus client software cannot rely on its own Esound backend to work on a distro with Pulse out of the box, so even if s_audio_esd.c is a working backend it would give spotty coverage. (And I was pretty much guided away from going that route on the irc chat.)
I can safely say that one benefit of doing so would be that new users would get audio input/output that "just works" for casual/beginner patching-- e.g., watching a tutorial on the web while patching in Pd. (I focus on beginners not because veteran users don't browse the web while patching, but because veteran users probably already know how to route through Jack to get web audio and Pd audio to play at the same time.)
Beyond that software mixing it's hard to say what the benefits would be. Not because I don't think PulseAudio has benefits, but because s_audio_alsa.c isn't the greatest ALSA backend ever written so it's impossible to gauge the reliability of Pulse by trying #1 above. I can say that everyone on the PulseAudio list was extremely helpful in trying to get software mixing in Pd without having to write a whole Pulse backend. (Especially considering I don't really understand the ALSA API nor the Pulse one all that well.)
So it's a bit of a pickle-- a new user can already most likely get audio output from Pd right away, and someone who wants extremely low latency has exactly zero need for Pulse being in the mix at all. So the only real use case I see is mixing with the audio from the rest of the system. That's important, but it's unclear to me whether it necessitates the work it would take to create and test an additional audio backend.
Anyway I'd love to hear from people who have more knowledge about audio backends/servers than I do. I really was only working on integrating Pd's audio dialog GUI into a Preferences dialog and fell down this Linux Audio Hell Rabbit Hole...
Best, Jonathan
I know, everyone mileage varies.
Roman
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On 2013-05-20 22:43, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
Hi list,
And just curious: 7) Does anyone using GNU/Linux system want to use pulse-audio with Pd? The main reason would be easy software mixing-- for example, you could watch a tutorial on youtube and get sound out of a running instance of Pd without doing any configuration whatsoever. (At least that's what Pulse Audio claims-- I haven't used it so much.)
One solution is having multiple sound cards; specifying one as default in .asoundrc and use another for Pd. But you need an external mixer...
Thanks, Jonathan
Fred Jan
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Die, 2013-05-21 at 19:55 +0200, Fred Jan Kraan wrote:
On 2013-05-20 22:43, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
Hi list,
And just curious: 7) Does anyone using GNU/Linux system want to use pulse-audio with Pd? The main reason would be easy software mixing-- for example, you could watch a tutorial on youtube and get sound out of a running instance of Pd without doing any configuration whatsoever. (At least that's what Pulse Audio claims-- I haven't used it so much.)
One solution is having multiple sound cards; specifying one as default in .asoundrc and use another for Pd. But you need an external mixer...
1999 called, they want their ~/.*rc configuration files back.
Roman
On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 5:43 AM, Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com wrote:
- Does anyone using GNU/Linux system want to use pulse-audio with Pd?
The main reason would be easy software mixing-- for example, you could watch a tutorial on youtube and get sound out of a running instance of Pd without doing any configuration whatsoever. (At least that's what Pulse Audio claims-- I haven't used it so much.)
I won't join the league of pulse haters. For a long time I've found it just works as it claims to, so long as I dedicate a separate sound card to pulse and one to JACK. In fact, with multiple cards pulse can hot-switch the output or input card with ease and without audible glitches. That being said, I don't and probably won't use pulse for anything related to audio production. That is what JACK is for. If I need to use Pd with pulse, there is always the jack-pulse plugin.