I think though it would be confusing to associate "pointers" in C with "pointers" in Pd. They are related but not exactly equivalent concepts. And we don't necessarily need to mention "pointers" on the Wikipedia site - that's a detail that's more suited to a tutorial that an encyclopedic overview.
I've added a little section on data structures to the site - check it out and let me know what you think. I'd still like to get a good screenshot of a non-score use of data structures, as well.
-david
On 4/3/06, Arie van Schutterhoef arsche@xs4all.nl wrote:
describe just what "data structures"
-Reads like a poem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_structure
"pointers"
-Slighthly less prosaic, but nonetheless readable: http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/Dave/C/node10.html
AvS
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .....................................................................
` |Schreck Ensemble . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +
|# -laboratory for live electro-acoustic music- # | | http://www.schreck.nl/ | | http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/ |*===========================================================++|Compositions http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/compo.html ||Samples http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/samp.html ||Patches http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/pat.html ||Videos http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/video.html |` |Scores http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/scores.html | *===========================================================++. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .....................................................................
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, david golightly wrote:
I think though it would be confusing to associate "pointers" in C with "pointers" in Pd. They are related but not exactly equivalent concepts.
They don't need to be exactly equivalent.
However it's good to know that pointer arithmetic doesn't exist in most languages, and neither does reinterpret_cast<> (typecasting pointers between not-necessarily-compatible types). For those two reasons I wouldn't teach Pd pointers using a C tutorial.
I would have said, try finding another tutorial on pointers, for another language, but Pd's pointers are rather peculiar. I'd rather have them work as in Perl or Python, but instead it's some kind of weak-pointer system in which everything revolves around the canvas that owns the struct.
(BTW: Some other languages may call pointers "references" instead and insist that they aren't pointers, but I consider those two words as largely equivalent.)
And we don't necessarily need to mention "pointers" on the Wikipedia site
Pd has only three atom types and "pointer" is one of them. That's certainly worth mentioning. It's also worth mentioning because it was the first big new feature in Pd, ever.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
On 4/3/06, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, david golightly wrote:
And we don't necessarily need to mention "pointers" on the Wikipedia site
Pd has only three atom types and "pointer" is one of them. That's certainly worth mentioning. It's also worth mentioning because it was the first big new feature in Pd, ever.
I agree. I've searched in vain for equivalent features in other audio software, and I want other potential users to understand the value of this feature. Being a composer first, I lean towards not making the Wikipedia article a tutorial, but an exposition in plain language. I don't see most musicians getting past the first paragraph of the separate Wikipedia article on Data Structures. The explanation on the Pure Data page is good, but I still think some potential users will stop reading before they get to Data Structures. Someone looking on Wikipedia is probably at the point of deciding whether to learn Reaktor, Max, Csound, or whatever else, and IMO pointers are why they should choose Pd. That's just my opinion. It's also possible that people who can't follow it won't be interested in Pure Data in the first place...
I offered my own version of an explanation of data structures on the Wikipedia talk page. See what you guys think.
"Unlike other audio programming environments, Pure Data allows the creation of customizable lists of items, called scalars. These items each have assignable parameters (identified in Data Structures) that can be accessed individually using pointers and edited, displayed, or applied as values while the program runs. At its most basic level, a data structure allows the storing, retrieving, and viewing of data which can automate any of Pure Data's other functions. This could mean complex score languages, automatic settings changes, storing presets, or visually displaying data that would otherwise be invisible."
Maybe this seems too elementary to some, but it's right on my level, lol. "Data Structures," "pointers," and "scalars" might all be links to other articles. I agree there should be something other than a score as an example. Weren't all the illustrations in Miller's book created with Pd? Maybe some kind of spectral analysis graphed with data structures would look impressive.
-Chuckk
On 4/3/06, david golightly davigoli@gmail.com wrote:
I think though it would be confusing to associate "pointers" in C with "pointers" in Pd. They are related but not exactly equivalent concepts. And we don't necessarily need to mention "pointers" on the Wikipedia site - that's a detail that's more suited to a tutorial that an encyclopedic overview.
I've added a little section on data structures to the site - check it out and let me know what you think. I'd still like to get a good screenshot of a non-score use of data structures, as well.
-david
On 4/3/06, Arie van Schutterhoef arsche@xs4all.nl wrote:
describe just what "data structures"
-Reads like a poem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_structure
"pointers"
-Slighthly less prosaic, but nonetheless readable: http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/Dave/C/node10.html
AvS
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .....................................................................
` |Schreck Ensemble . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +
|# -laboratory for live electro-acoustic music- # | | http://www.schreck.nl/ | | http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/ |*===========================================================++|Compositions http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/compo.html ||Samples http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/samp.html ||Patches http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/pat.html ||Videos http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/video.html |` |Scores http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/scores.html | *===========================================================++. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .....................................................................
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- "It is not when truth is dirty, but when it is shallow, that the lover of knowledge is reluctant to step into its waters." -Friedrich Nietzsche, "Thus Spoke Zarathustra"
Hallo, david golightly hat gesagt: // david golightly wrote:
I think though it would be confusing to associate "pointers" in C with "pointers" in Pd. They are related but not exactly equivalent concepts. And we don't necessarily need to mention "pointers" on the Wikipedia site - that's a detail that's more suited to a tutorial that an encyclopedic overview.
I've added a little section on data structures to the site - check it out and let me know what you think. I'd still like to get a good screenshot of a non-score use of data structures, as well.
I attached a little screenshot of my msd-editor which shows data structures in the background. I think, the current text on ds is fine. We could add links to Greg's data structure tutorial and to my data structure overview paper as soon as it's online at the Linux Audio Conference page (at which point I will also add it to the CVS).
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
Hi Frank,
Can your editor also work with invisible forces? iLine, iAmbient, iCirle etc??
I will be starting on the data-structure path soon. :)
Is there any (transparent) or bulk way to sync data-structures running on different machines? Other than repacking the data in OSC and sending it out to get reparsed..
I'm thinking of this for my multi-screen Gem patch...
Frank, could you send me your [repeat] Gemchain trick again? I can't find the link.
Thanks!
.b.
Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo, david golightly hat gesagt: // david golightly wrote:
I think though it would be confusing to associate "pointers" in C with "pointers" in Pd. They are related but not exactly equivalent concepts. And we don't necessarily need to mention "pointers" on the Wikipedia site - that's a detail that's more suited to a tutorial that an encyclopedic overview.
I've added a little section on data structures to the site - check it out and let me know what you think. I'd still like to get a good screenshot of a non-score use of data structures, as well.
I attached a little screenshot of my msd-editor which shows data structures in the background. I think, the current text on ds is fine. We could add links to Greg's data structure tutorial and to my data structure overview paper as soon as it's online at the Linux Audio Conference page (at which point I will also add it to the CVS).
Ciao
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-
B. Bogart -
Chuckk Hubbard -
david golightly -
Frank Barknecht -
Mathieu Bouchard